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Thread: Make it real(er)!

  1. #1
    Solar Blaze Wizard Cool Trainer
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    Default Make it real(er)!

    Not sure if this is the right place for this or not; if it isn't, go ahead and move it to wherever.

    While I love pokemon dearly, one of the things that's always bugged me about it is how illogical it is. I don't mean eggs evolving into a palm tree (though that is pretty illogical); I mean things like:
    - Why do Water pokemon need to know a certain move in order to carry you across the water?
    - Why don't Weathers and Terrains have bigger impacts (in and out of battle), and why don't they interact with each other?
    - Why can't you actually train at Gyms?
    - How come the Elite Four just glorified Gym Leaders?
    - Where the heck do starter pokemon come from?
    Etc.

    The little critters themselves are crazy enough; do the games really need to put them in a reality where physics doesn't exist?

    With that in mind, I've been coming up with some modifications that might make the games a little more realistic (and maybe more challenging? Not sure). Let me know what you think.

    Let's start with the obvious: Overworld moves. Combined with the gym badge system, these moves were clearly designed as a mechanic to ensure that the player progressed through the game in a certain order. Sun & Moon tried an interesting method of moving away from the HM system, but being able to conjure a Lapras that you don't own out of thin air isn't very logical, either. I don't think its unreasonable to expect a Trainer to use their own pokemon that they've trained to get past obstacles; it just seems like you shouldn't always need a certain move in order to do so.

    - Cut: Bushes can be cut down by any Level 20+ pokemon that knows any of the following moves: Scratch, Fury Swipes, Slash, Night Slash, Cross Poison, Psycho Cut, Shadow Claw, Leaf Blade, Air Slash, Razor Leaf, Razor Wind, or Fury Cutter.
    - Fly: Any Level 40+ pokemon that is eligible for Sky Battles and is at least 1.5m tall can fly to known locations while carrying its Trainer.
    - Surf: Any Level 30+ pokemon Water-type pokemon that is at least 1.5m tall can carry its Trainer across bodies of water.
    - Strength: Any Level 30+ bi- or quadrupedal pokemon with an Attack of at least 75 can move large boulders.
    - Flash: Any pokemon that is Fire-type, Electric-type, or with the Illuminate ability that is the lead in a Trainer's party gives off ambient light, and increases the wild encounter rate.
    - Whirlpool: Any swimming Water-type pokemon with an Attack or Speed of at least 75 can traverse whirlpools.
    - Waterfall: Any swimming Water-type pokemon with a Speed of at least 100 can climb waterfalls.
    - Rock Smash: Any pokemon can use any physical contact move (other than cutting moves) with a Base Power of at least 50 to break small boulders.
    - Headbutt: Any pokemon can use any physical contact move (other than cutting moves) with a Base Power between 60 and 80 to shake large trees.
    - Dive: Any swimming Water-type pokemon can carry its Trainer underwater.
    - Defog: Any Level 30+ Flying-type pokemon with a Sp. Atk of at least 75 can use Gust, Whirlwind, Razor Wind, Twister, or Hurricane to clear foggy areas.
    - Rock Climb: Any Level 30+ bi- or quadrupedal pokemon with a Speed of at least 100 can climb cliff faces. Such pokemon can also jump up small ledges.

    To be clear: I am definitely posting this so that someone can validate all the effort I put into thinking about something this useless However, I also want to hear what other people think. Would these changes make sense (or, at least, more sense)? What other changes could make pokemon a little more logical?

    I'll post some ideas to make the Gyms / Elite Four and weather conditions a little more logical later.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hinoryu
    I shall not be out-nerded!

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Make it real(er)!

    Great read, pal. I'm sure many of us have been wondering the same things.

    Quote Originally Posted by starjake View Post
    - Why do Water pokemon need to know a certain move in order to carry you across the water?
    I'm willing to bring on another point of view. Whether the Pokemon is Squirtle or Lapras, it would also require some skill from the trainer himself/herself to stay on the Pokemon's back. I'm not saying 'Hey, let's have the trainers get a level up system of their own', actually, that's where the Gym Badges come into the picture. Gym Badges indicate not only the victories from the Gyms in question but also the bond and respect between Pokemon and their trainer. That brings on another question, though. If you, say, catch a level 30 Pokemon and teach him Surf right away, it seems a bit odd taken what I said earlier because you and the Pokemon simply couldn't know each other so well. Then there are Pokemon like Psyduck who don't seem to fit to use Surf at the first glance.

    There are many things in videogames that don't make sense. Mostly, they are there to make the programming easier and that's what makes them just games. If the developers force changes to the original system, there's always the risk of old fans to be disappointed and refuse to buy the product. I remember when Super Mario 64 came along, some people said things like 'Mario can't be 3D!'. This is a double-edged sword, fortunately; changes to the system may also bring some fresh air to the games, many of us have found the omission of Gyms and Gym Leaders in Sun & Moon welcomed.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Make it real(er)!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikachu Yukitatsu View Post
    Gym Badges indicate not only the victories from the Gyms in question but also the bond and respect between Pokemon and their trainer.
    That is often mentioned in the games and anime, and what not, but again, if we talk reality with regards to the games, most people who play them aren't developing bonds with make believe critters. I don't think gyms measure the bond so much as they measure strategy. As long as you aren't a colossal ass to your Pokemon (like leaving them KO'd often and feeding them bitter food), friendship and bonds are not related to success in a gym... unless you're leaning on using Return or Frustration in battle.
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  4. #4
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    Default Re: Make it real(er)!

    Quote Originally Posted by starjake View Post
    1.) Why do Water pokemon need to know a certain move in order to carry you across the water?
    2.) Why don't Weathers and Terrains have bigger impacts (in and out of battle), and why don't they interact with each other?
    3.) Why can't you actually train at Gyms?
    4.) How come the Elite Four just glorified Gym Leaders?
    5.) Where the heck do starter pokemon come from?
    1.) I imaged certain Pokémon types to be "one" with the elements in a way. So they needed to learn a particular move (Surf) in order to be able to carry a human sometimes way bigger and heavier than them without sinking (even Pikachu can learn Surf in some games).
    2.) Same element idea really. The Pokémon can draw strength through the terrain itself. And the more intense and strong the representation is the more they do.
    3.) I guess if you are strong enough to beat the Gym Leader there is nothing for you to train there anymore. It's for Pokémon trainers who still lack the necessery skills and those who simply don't like travelling far and wide.
    4.) Well, what else would they be? It's not like they are the world's leaders or anything. They are just particularly skilled trainers who have formed strong bonds with their Pokémon.
    5.) Well, apparently you get them from a region's Professor. I suppose they are a carefully selected breed of Pokémon that are especially fond of humans and relatively easy to train.
    Austrian ViceMaster Alex



  5. #5
    Solar Blaze Wizard Cool Trainer
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    Default Re: Make it real(er)!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikachu Yukitatsu
    Whether the Pokemon is Squirtle or Lapras, it would also require some skill from the trainer himself/herself to stay on the Pokemon's back.
    I don't know if I agree with that. There is a vast difference between Surfing on a Squirtle and Surfing on a Lapras, if only because a standard Squirtle is the size of a toddler and a standard Lapras is the size of a car. Surfing on a Lapras shouldn't require any skill; you're just sitting there. Surfing on a Squirtle...I just can't see how that's possible at all, regardless of how much skill or bond you have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikachu Yukitatsu
    Gym Badges indicate not only the victories from the Gyms in question but also the bond and respect between Pokemon and their trainer.
    So...if I earn a Gym badge, what about all the pokemon I own that didn't participate in the earning of that badge? What about all the pokemon I catch after earning that badge? How does earning a Gym badge show the bond or respect between a pokemon and their trainer if the pokemon wasn't present at the time? I think Magmar's thought about strategy makes more sense: You as a Trainer knew what strategies to implement in order to triumph, and it's just sort of assumed that the only reason you were able to implement that strategy with the pokemon that you did is because of the bond and respect between you and that pokemon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikachu Yukitatsu
    If you, say, catch a level 30 Pokemon and teach him Surf right away, it seems a bit odd taken what I said earlier because you and the Pokemon simply couldn't know each other so well. Then there are Pokemon like Psyduck who don't seem to fit to use Surf at the first glance.
    I agree with this, but I can't think of an in-game mechanism that could feasibly be used to gain a pokemon's respect after catching it, and how long that mechanism should take. As it stands right now, if I catch a pokemon, I can immediately command it to do something in battle; therefore, I would think that I could also immediately command it to do something out of battle.

    And, like Squirtle, it doesn't make sense to me that Psyduck would be able to carry anyone across water at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikachu Yukitatsu
    There are many things in videogames that don't make sense. Mostly, they are there to make the programming easier and that's what makes them just games. If the developers force changes to the original system, there's always the risk of old fans to be disappointed and refuse to buy the product. I remember when Super Mario 64 came along, some people said things like 'Mario can't be 3D!'.
    True statements, all. I still think there is room for improvement, though =)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikachu Yukitatsu
    This is a double-edged sword, fortunately; changes to the system may also bring some fresh air to the games, many of us have found the omission of Gyms and Gym Leaders in Sun & Moon welcomed.
    Ah, but they didn't omit Gyms and Gym Leaders in Sun & Moon; they just rebranded them. The Trials are the Gyms, and the Totems / Kahunas are the Gym Leaders. The only thing they really got rid of were the badges themselves. I don't think the changes they made were bad; on the contrary, I'm surprised it took this long to have a twist to the continually-beat-ever-stronger-trainers-until-you-become-Champion system. I'm talking less about twists and more about fleshing things out more.

    Speaking of Gym Leaders...

    - As they stand right now, Gyms are nothing special; they're just locations where trainers who happen to train certain pokemon types gather. Why not play up on their types a bit? I'm thinking that training a pokemon who type matches the Gym warrants additional experience, or maybe additional EVs. Or, for something more challenging, maybe you are only allowed to use pokemon whose type matches the Gym (so receiving the badge proves a sort of 'mastery' over that particular pokemon type).
    - Gym Leaders (and trainers too, probably) should be able to be battled repeatedly, just like trainers out in the world can. However, it would make sense that there is some kind of restriction - they are their own people, after all; they don't exist solely for you to defeat - so I would think you could only rematch against a Gym Leader once per day.
    - If you defeat a Gym Leader more than once, that should be recognized. For every X number of times you defeat a Gym Leader, the badge you received from them gets an 'upgrade' of some sort. These upgrades might be a good spot for things akin to Gen VI's O-Power abilities? Additionally, it would be logical that the upgrades you have influences how challenging the Leader's team is.
    - Moving on to the Elite Four...instead of them focusing on specific pokemon types like regular Gym Leaders, have them focus on specific battling styles (Double, Rotation, Multi, Inverse, etc.). That way, defeating the Elite Four shows that you have mastery over battling, making you worthy of challenging the reigning Champion.
    - Like Gym Leaders, the Elite Four does not exist solely for you, the player. It always seemed silly to me that you could battle them over and over on an endless loop without any sort of break. They, too, should only be able to battled once a day.
    - Finally: The levels of the teams used by both Gym Leaders and the Elite Four should be based the levels of your own team. I realize that this isn't entirely logical from a real-life perspective, but the intent is that they are supposed to be at least somewhat challenging.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hinoryu
    I shall not be out-nerded!

  6. #6
    Former hair-trigger of Hangman Veteran Trainer
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    Default Re: Make it real(er)!

    Quote Originally Posted by starjake View Post
    Let's start with the obvious: Overworld moves. Combined with the gym badge system, these moves were clearly designed as a mechanic to ensure that the player progressed through the game in a certain order. Sun & Moon tried an interesting method of moving away from the HM system, but being able to conjure a Lapras that you don't own out of thin air isn't very logical, either. I don't think its unreasonable to expect a Trainer to use their own pokemon that they've trained to get past obstacles; it just seems like you shouldn't always need a certain move in order to do so.

    - Cut: Bushes can be cut down by any Level 20+ pokemon that knows any of the following moves: Scratch, Fury Swipes, Slash, Night Slash, Cross Poison, Psycho Cut, Shadow Claw, Leaf Blade, Air Slash, Razor Leaf, Razor Wind, or Fury Cutter.
    - Fly: Any Level 40+ pokemon that is eligible for Sky Battles and is at least 1.5m tall can fly to known locations while carrying its Trainer.
    - Surf: Any Level 30+ pokemon Water-type pokemon that is at least 1.5m tall can carry its Trainer across bodies of water.
    - Strength: Any Level 30+ bi- or quadrupedal pokemon with an Attack of at least 75 can move large boulders.
    - Flash: Any pokemon that is Fire-type, Electric-type, or with the Illuminate ability that is the lead in a Trainer's party gives off ambient light, and increases the wild encounter rate.
    - Whirlpool: Any swimming Water-type pokemon with an Attack or Speed of at least 75 can traverse whirlpools.
    - Waterfall: Any swimming Water-type pokemon with a Speed of at least 100 can climb waterfalls.
    - Rock Smash: Any pokemon can use any physical contact move (other than cutting moves) with a Base Power of at least 50 to break small boulders.
    - Headbutt: Any pokemon can use any physical contact move (other than cutting moves) with a Base Power between 60 and 80 to shake large trees.
    - Dive: Any swimming Water-type pokemon can carry its Trainer underwater.
    - Defog: Any Level 30+ Flying-type pokemon with a Sp. Atk of at least 75 can use Gust, Whirlwind, Razor Wind, Twister, or Hurricane to clear foggy areas.
    - Rock Climb: Any Level 30+ bi- or quadrupedal pokemon with a Speed of at least 100 can climb cliff faces. Such pokemon can also jump up small ledges.

    To be clear: I am definitely posting this so that someone can validate all the effort I put into thinking about something this useless However, I also want to hear what other people think. Would these changes make sense (or, at least, more sense)? What other changes could make pokemon a little more logical?

    I'll post some ideas to make the Gyms / Elite Four and weather conditions a little more logical later.
    That's quite a read you got there starjake. Coming up with the filler for this post isn't exactly easy for me, but you definitely made some good points on the field moves, so they're pretty much the easiest thing I can comment on here and give my two cents on.

    Cut: I can definitely agree with you on that one, but in theory I'd say it would probably depend on the Pokemon and the length of their claws/scythes/whatever. If they're strong enough, I can imagine they wouldn't have too much trouble cutting down trees or thorn bushes.

    Fly: Yeah, going to agree with you on this one too. As long as the Pokemon is strong enough to fly and support its trainer's weight, using Fly shouldn't be much of a problem at all.

    Surf: Again, I think the weight of the trainer would be a factor here too. Even if the Pokemon is big enough for its trainer to climb on to Surf, the Pokemon in question should be heavier than the trainer.

    Strength: Not sure what to say on this one, but if it can break trees with its bare fists, a Pokemon shouldn't have too many problems using Strength.

    Flash: Hmm, this is a toughie. I'd say any Pokemon that can emit a bright light naturally would have the least amount of problems using Flash.

    Whirlpool: Another toughie for me. As long as the Pokemon can support the trainer's weight and is a fast enough swimmer, I can imagine that it wouldn't be too hard to cross a Whirlpool.

    Waterfall: Okay, this one's really tough for me to think of anything to say about it other than saying that being a very good swimmer would probably be a big asset for using Waterfall successfully.

    Rock Smash: What I said about Strength would likely apply here too, though I think a Pokemon wouldn't require as much natural strength to use Rock Smash as I think it would for Strength.

    Headbutt: This one is another toughie for me to give my two cents on, though personally, I think the best Headbutt users would be Pokemon whose heads are sturdy enough for them to not easily get hurt too much when using the move.

    Dive: I fully agree with you on this one, though one thing that bothers me is the lack of the oxygen giving red things that go over the mouth and were in the anime. I think they should have been implemented in the games even if they were just there for a decoration (like the goggles present in some of the newer Kirby games when he's underwater)

    Defog: I definitely agree here, any Pokemon who can generate wind should be able to use Defog without too much trouble.

    Rock Climb: I'm thinking that any Pokemon who is great at climbing other surfaces (or trees, for that matter) shouldn't have too hard of a time using Rock Climb.

    BTW, welcome back.
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  7. #7
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    Default Re: Make it real(er)!

    What comes to riding Lapras, I was referring to extreme weather conditions.

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