How long till we tell... ( Gas Topic )

[Roy Karrde]

This topic is inspired by a Russ Martin Show discussion today. With Gas Prices constantly rising, and talk of it going to $5 a gallon come this summer in some places. It is only a matter of time till we start drilling in American Waters and in Alaska, as well as building more refineries.

Right now what is preventing that is the extreme environmental lobby pressuring Congress to veto any bill.

So how long until we tell the "Green" groups to shove it up their ass? The backlash is already starting against ethonal, and truck drivers are protesting. So how long will it take until you have had enough? When is it worth more to drill in Alaska, than keeping that area free of oil drilling? What price do you think until we start having more and more protests infront of Congress for change now?

Participate in the poll and enjoy having a discussion on Gas Prices ^_^

[mr_pikachu]

Let's be honest. If the "green" groups can convince politicians to outlaw analog TVs and lightbulbs that don't cause migraines, they totally own the government. Nuclear winter could envelop the planet and they'd still form a human circle around Alaska singing Kumbaya. Because it's not about helping humans, animals, plants, or anything else; it's about sticking it to "the man."

Excuse the cynical pessimism. Which I sincerely hope isn't actually realism.


EDIT: None of those poll options really apply to me. Now, if you had an option that said "free"...

*is fed up with hysterical environmentalists*

[Roy Karrde]

Personally I just think that at some point people are going to get so pissed that the Government cannot ignore them. Especially if it happens this summer, right before a election. There just has to be some kind of breaking point.

[Blademaster]

This topic is SO not biased.

[Roy Karrde]

Well I would be glad to hear a alternative view point from a Environmentalist, and how we should sacrifice for gas and food prices, with many of the poor starving and truckers not able to make their wages. Becuase a couple of miles of Alaska should not be dirtied up?

I mean seriously there is going to come a point where food is going to get too high for many to buy, and the cost of gas too high for truckers to transport goods around the nation. Shouldn't at some point before that happen we as human beings realize that keeping a few miles of Alaska untouched is not worth it?

[mr_pikachu]

Oh, as soon as someone posts a counterpoint I fully expect the discussion to disintegrate into dozens of snide, back-and-forth jabs on the edge of flaming. Which is when I'll be evacuating the thread.

At any rate, I'm just tired of people being imbeciles. If you want to develop alternate energy sources, fine! Please, feel free! I'm all for that. No one's really sure when the petrol supply will run out, but it'll happen someday, so let's get a head start on that. Besides, gasoline isn't cheap, so if you can make something else run better and cheaper, go for it!

Until you've got an economical solution, though, don't whine about how awful gasoline is and how anyone who touches the grass with a shovel is a direct descendant of Satan. Develop an alternative fuel source, make it better and/or cheaper than the current system, and viola! Everything's fixed.

Better to solve the problem than waste your time complaining about it.

...In case you hadn't noticed, this is a hot topic for me right now. I'm rather livid.

[firepokemon]

No offense to you Americans but in terms of real costs, you guys have some of the cheapest petrol prices in the world. A price that is way cheaper than you will see in Europe, Australia, New Zealand and elsewhere. Sorry but its hard to feel sorry for what you see say as high petrol prices, when the rest of us are paying even higher costs. Now lets see, exactly what type of cars do the two of you drive? Are they economical vehicles or are they gas guzzlers?

I would be interesting to find out really. As if they are bigger vehicles, well I wouldn't be sorry about it. But as I don't know what you drive. I can't exactly judge you on that.

The petrol companies love high prices, I mean have you seen what Shell and BP made in 1st quarter profits? Why they were up by 25%. Cutting government taxes won't do it. And more supply does not necessarily mean lower prices. And even if prices do become lower, they will be negated in no time, as we've probably reached the stage where high prices are permanent. Its of no real interest for carmakers to make cars that don't use oil. Although you know, if General Motors and Ford could get off their arse and make the stuff. Well then maybe they wouldn't be rolling in mountains of debts. But thats not the case, instead they keep making cars that the rest of the world do not want and that even America increasingly do not want. Another thing, if America didn't evade Iraq, I doubt oil prices would be so high. If I were you two, get the hell use to it. One day, you will join the rest of us, who are getting taxed more and more and more especially with the Kyoto treaty and stuff that is putting even more taxes on our petrol/oil. Thus our prices are much higher in comparison to what you pay.

You americans are pretty lucky if you ask me. I'd kill for the price you guys have. So meh stop your moaning.And either adjust your driving or how often you use it or get use to high prices. Because I'm sorry but its here to stay.

[Crystalmaster Mike]

I don't know the prices for oil in America, so I can't compare, but let me just say that fp is right about at least one thing: we all feel the sting of those price increasements...

You know, the world is pretty messed up, if you'd consider.
I'd say a lot of people today acknowledge to a varying degree the Earth has been polluted by mankind, yet still, ecology is, as ever, only improved in ways that economically profitable. And admit, an average Western inhabitant is so used to his own luxury, he couldn't cope with out it and rather just ignore the outside world in favor of exercising his couch hanging skills

Now, if you will excuse me, I'm going to ironically prove my own point by eating some junk food from the Yellow Arches FastFood Corp., and spending a large portion of my afternoon in a movie theater seat.

[Heald]

You think that's bad? Try £4.50 a gallon ($9) in the UK.

The problem with the UK is that they're trying to wean us off cars with public transport.

Except the Labour government officially said that they are trying to wean people off public transport with higher prices.

This makes no sense to me. What am I meant to do? Walk back to London from Sheffield?

[Clark]

i filled up yesterday for 3.6999 a gallon. 50$ that could have gone to something more worthwhile. i really hate the fact that i have to drive everywhere unless i wish to walk a few hours.

[Heald]

Meh, I sort of have one foot in each hole at the moment. I believe we should we working towards being greener as a whole, but on the other hand, weaning us off petrol by raising the prices when there is no viable alternative is completely wrong.

You must also bear in mind that OPEC is keeping the prices artificially high at the moment, and while a small government tax cut will help, the oil companies will gain most of the profit from it. There is simply no reason for OPEC to be charging such high prices at the moment, apart from inflating their own profits (and punishing the West for allying with the Jews).

The Government doesn't help at all, but then again, when does it ever help? We're meant to be moving to renewable sources, hell, 10 years ago, it was predicted everyone would have electric cars and public transport would be awesome. 10 years on, electric cars are shit, hybrid cars are only marginally cleaner than petrol cars and public transport is both more expensive and shittier than before. The British Government are taking unprecedented steps to make sure that leaving your house is more expensive than ever. Subsidies are being cut, car tax and petrol duty is sky-rocketing and tickets for public transport are rising way above inflation. Electric cars aren't viable, we still don't have clean/hydrogen cars or whatever we're meant to be driving and public transport costs roughly the same as the petrol you'd spend to get there, except it is much slower and you're crowded in with a bunch of smelly fat women and their ten fat chav kids in tow. I can't wait until Labour fuck off out of my government so we can get some real politicians in.

[Asilynne]

Oh, as soon as someone posts a counterpoint I fully expect the discussion to disintegrate into dozens of snide, back-and-forth jabs on the edge of flaming. Which is when I'll be evacuating the thread.

At any rate, I'm just tired of people being imbeciles. If you want to develop alternate energy sources, fine! Please, feel free! I'm all for that. No one's really sure when the petrol supply will run out, but it'll happen someday, so let's get a head start on that. Besides, gasoline isn't cheap, so if you can make something else run better and cheaper, go for it!

Until you've got an economical solution, though, don't whine about how awful gasoline is and how anyone who touches the grass with a shovel is a direct descendant of Satan. Develop an alternative fuel source, make it better and/or cheaper than the current system, and viola! Everything's fixed.

Better to solve the problem than waste your time complaining about it.

...In case you hadn't noticed, this is a hot topic for me right now. I'm rather livid.

I agree with this totally, unfortunately Necessity is the mother of invention...so things will probably have to get far worse before someone will have finally had enough and invent something feasable besides gasolene and go through all the hard work to get it popularized. That is, unless the gas companies, electric companies etc kill them and steal their product so as to keep it from the public and keep societys dependance on them >.>

That being said Id rather not go destroying the last lil bit of pristine frontier land america has :/ so whoever has any sort of vision or skill in this world had better see the necessity and get off their lazy asses quickly because I really hate having to shell out my hard earned money just to get around

EDIT: In fact since the enviromentalists are usually democrats who are big on taxes why dont they tax the oil companies and use the extra profits (since we are paying out the ass anyway) to set up a fund for the research and development of new and better energy sources, you know, ones that work as well as gasolene but are easier and cleaner AND CHEAPER. But that would require work wouldnt it :/ If environmentalists spent half the time and energy (hrhrhr energy) they do on whining as they do on actually working to find a solution we would probably have one by now. Although it would be a lil ironic for the gas companies tax money going towards ultimately putting them out of business wouldnt it XD

[Roy Karrde]

That being said Id rather not go destroying the last lil bit of pristine frontier land america has :/ so whoever has any sort of vision or skill in this world had better see the necessity and get off their lazy asses quickly because I really hate having to shell out my hard earned money just to get around

The land wont be destroyed, we have ways now to make it completely environmental friendly, and the area that can be used would be incredibly small. Especially when you consider the entire area is larger than many states.

Cutting government taxes won't do it.

It will actually drop the price as much as 50 cents in some areas. The Oil Companies do not get profits off the Government taxes anyway. Infact they make get even more profits as the use of Gas would go up this summer instead of decline.

And more supply does not necessarily mean lower prices. And even if prices do become lower, they will be negated in no time, as we've probably reached the stage where high prices are permanent.

Well for one more supply will lower prices, if anything it will scare the hell out of the Saudi's and cause them to flood the market with even more oil. If they keep gas prices high while the price of oil drops, then there will be lawsuits, as well as government investigations.

Another thing, if America didn't evade Iraq, I doubt oil prices would be so high.

Not really, Iraq plays a small part, but as does Iran's actions as well as Venuzela, as well as China's increasing need for oil. As well as the lack of new refineries to deal with the need for more gas.

[.hacker]

What's really sad is that the United States has a HUGE oil reserve in the Dakotas (estimates place a potential 200-500 BILLION barrels of oil), but we can't drill most of it since the cost and energy spent drilling for it is higher than the price of oil. Hopefully, this will be changing in a bit.

Someone mentioned Alaska? I think we should have drilled that area long ago, and I would recommend drilling there NOW (just my opinion).

[Leon-IH]

You'd do better devoting your resources towards developing something sustainable, long term economically speaking.

[PsiUmbreon]

Someone tell me why I detect a hint of bias in this topic? Anyway...

I think f*cking up the environment is not the solution. We should be looking to invest in alternative fuel sources and putting more hybrids on the road. People should start walking and riding bikes more. Don't we also have an obesity epidemic in this country? And why are we letting the oil companies stick it to us this much? The government can totally have a say in the prices. Stop adding oil to the 'strategic' reserve. That's what's making the prices so effing high . And make the oil companies stop milking the political situation and using it as an excuse to drive up the prices. There's plenty of oil left still that isn't in untouched land, but maybe this should be a wake up call to us, telling us to start, you know, conserving energy, recycling more, and using alternative fuels more. It's entirely possible to end our dependence on foreign oil without causing permanent damage to our environment.

[mr_pikachu]

And why are we letting the oil companies stick it to us this much? The government can totally have a say in the prices. Stop adding oil to the 'strategic' reserve. That's what's making the prices so effing high . And make the oil companies stop milking the political situation and using it as an excuse to drive up the prices. There's plenty of oil left still that isn't in untouched land, but maybe this should be a wake up call to us, telling us to start, you know, conserving energy, recycling more, and using alternative fuels more. It's entirely possible to end our dependence on foreign oil without causing permanent damage to our environment.

As Heald mentioned earlier, OPEC has a massive amount of influence on the oil market; it pretty much has total control over who gets petrol and who doesn't. (This is part of why calling the Iraqi conflict a "war for oil" seems silly to me, but that's an entirely different argument.) Right now we're simply not getting the same share as in the past, which is why prices are skyrocketing in the states.

This has a sweeping effect. First, consider the strategic reserve. The more OPEC restricts our resources, the more desperate we are due to our dependency on foreign oil - as we've seen recently, they have no problem with doing so. Having some petrol in reserve is a defense against further restrictions (or a downturn of the whole market).

Second, we haven't touched the natural resources in many areas because certain protest groups have pressured the politicians. I'll leave it at that to avoid starting a tangential flame war.

Third, I'm all for working toward alternative solutions, but the people working on them need to shut up about "save the planet" and such. There's enough evidence against global warming and similar theories that for many people, myself included, such terms prompt instant revulsion no matter how good the idea may be. Why cite a subject that many think is deeply flawed when you could just target the smart shopper in all of us? Take an alternative, make it economical and market it on that basis; stop the ideological drivel.

Fourth, the increased prices are a highly misunderstood point. What many people don't realize is that oil companies hate high prices. Their profit margin remains the same, yet people buy less because they're more conscious of their gas usage. Net profits decrease even as the incensed public accuses the whole industry of price gouging. Less money and catastrophically negative publicity... what company would want that?

[Roy Karrde]

Just to correct you Psi, the whole strategic reserves has very little to do with the prices. We buy so little oil for the reserves compared to the rest of oil we buy each day that stopping buying from it would reduce the prices by only a cent or two.

[Heald]

Petrol is up to £5 a gallon ($10) in the UK, and yet the government insists it cannot delay any tax increases which are due to come into effect soon otherwise it will upset their environmental agenda.

This makes no sense. If you were planning on putting the price up to promote greener substitutes, then fine, but if prices go up naturally, then you don't need to do anything. This is complete bullshit.

[Andrew]

I personally own a scooter, so I pay like 5 bucks a week to drive it. If I was able to buy an electric scooter, that would be my preference, but, there's not one commercially available.

If anything, I think we should start phasing out cars that run exclusively on petrol and encourage motor companies to create more hybrids (Ie Toyota Prius). To help encourage it we should reduce government taxes on buying a new car, and the registration fees. Looking for more renewable energy sources such as a much more robust solar energy market should also be on our agenda.

Only by weining ourselves off of SOOOO much petrol, do we stand a chance in the long run. Plus bitching about it all the time won't fix it either. Ie reducing Government Taxes ect.

[Ultimate Charizard]

I am interested in what cars you guys drive tbh.
If your driving some economical sensible car then fair enough. If your driving round in a typical American Re-inforced Steel 7-litre V8 Tank then i gots no sympathy.

I agre with Heald (Mostly cos its from a UK point of view). The cheapest Bus ticket i can get is £1.10. And that will go (around my town) anything upto about 3/5 miles depending where your going. To the next towns over your looking at £2.70 which is roughly 9-10 miles.
You can get trains for those and they only charge £2.60 for a return ticket but its still a pain in the ass when as Heald said, your forced to sit with the unwashed masses, not to mention risking your lives with packs of feral chavs running around (i wish i was exaggerating)

Just be thankful you guys havent been introduced to wonderfull world of Congestion charges. A bunch from my area went down to the recent Football finals in london and got stuck with a £60 ($120) fine for driving through Central London instead of using public transport. (only busses, taxi's and locals to Central London are exempt)

[Roy Karrde]

I am interested in what cars you guys drive tbh.
If your driving some economical sensible car then fair enough. If your driving round in a typical American Re-inforced Steel 7-litre V8 Tank then i gots no sympathy.

1996 Dodge Intrepid, 19 MPG in the City, 27 MPG on the Highway. Not the best car, but alot better than the others out there. And even then it is costing me 30 bucks a week to travel back and forth from College.

[Heald]

You can get trains for those and they only charge £2.60 for a return ticket but its still a pain in the ass when as Heald said, your forced to sit with the unwashed masses, not to mention risking your lives with packs of feral chavs running around (i wish i was exaggerating)

£2.60 for a return? Where I'm from £2.60 will get you a single to a station 1 stop away (i.e. about 2 miles). I'm literally pissing distance from London but because driving into London is such a pain (not to mention the congestion charge), I'm forced to take a train, which is an £8 single.

[Ultimate Charizard]

Didnt realise London was that expensive. Im up in the Leeds area (Castleford) and the next town over (wakefield) is 2 stops away.

[firepokemon]

It would appear this thread has new life.

PsiUmbreon - We allow the word fucking here.

Roy Karrde - I kinda like your points and can't be bothered debating them.

Mr. Pikachu

Fourth, the increased prices are a highly misunderstood point. What many people don't realize is that oil companies hate high prices. Their profit margin remains the same, yet people buy less because they're more conscious of their gas usage. Net profits decrease even as the incensed public accuses the whole industry of price gouging. Less money and catastrophically negative publicity... what company would want that?

Their profit margins do not stay the same as these companies are more than just retail outlets. Yeah sure, retail where the everyday person gets petrol/oil/gas profit margins do not change. But the big companies get most of their money from the actual drilling and selling to retail markets. So when prices are high, they do make money and more. Also I'm not sure they are hurt if US decreases their use, since China and elsewhere are using more and will continue to use more. Thus higher prices benefit the oil companies greatly. Its only at retail where they get hurt.

Heald:

Petrol is up to £5 a gallon ($10) in the UK, and yet the government insists it cannot delay any tax increases which are due to come into effect soon otherwise it will upset their environmental agenda.

This makes no sense. If you were planning on putting the price up to promote greener substitutes, then fine, but if prices go up naturally, then you don't need to do anything. This is complete bullshit.

The funny this is here, the government has said that they will freeze taxes on oil. Thus they are currently simply frozen. But I think Britain would be in the same boat as New Zealand. In that trying to cover upcoming Kyoto promises they can charge car consumers and thus do taxes. As this in the long run, should lead to decrease in consumption and shows that they actually care about the Kyoto Protocol. I agree with you and am thankful New Zealand is at least freezing further taxes. But its likely due to the Kyoto Protocol that they have to have such taxes.

----

I drive a 2005 Suzuki Swift 1.5 Litre car that does I think 9L for every 100 kms. Its super economical and I got in brand new in 2005. Its a wonderful car and it costs 60 dollars to fill up (thats 60 NZD) so it really helps. That and a full car can last me a month since I'm well located in Christchurch and can get anywhere really within 10-20 minutes. We;ve just passed the 2 dollar mark and forecasts appear to be $2.50 within six months or a year.

And the price of oil goes up due to consumption but also because many countries in OPEC have problems and when they have problems the price goes up. I notice the Americans seem to think that if the US opens up more reserves that they own that this will mean lower prices. That doesn't exactly work, since the price still has to do with the International price. And it is not in the governent's favour to hurt the oil companies, since most of them have personal interests in such things. And of course massive amount of dollars is given to these companies in the form of subsidies etc.

Oh and I'm not a fan of Hybrids. They're ultra expensive and I don't know how other countries work and New Zealand generally imports Japanese used cars and the average age of vehicles here are 11 years. And these hybrids are likely to have problems by the time they are 10 years old. People need to be looking at European diesels and smaller cars. Not necessarily bigger cars that just happen to have hybrid engines. And in the long run, we actually need alternatives to the concept of a Hybrid.

In reality we need to be thinking, oil is going up its going to continue to go up. Yeah sure certain countries can open up more oil fields etc. But if we are honest, long term says oil will keep going up. Car manufacturers need to think smart, the fact is they're too much looking at how they can improve turbo diesel cars and how to make hybrid vehicles. When really ultimately, the whole technology of vehicles needs to be looked at. Basically Ford and General Motors are too backwards looking and too much focused on making their cars look smart when really they keep losing market share to Japanese car makers and ultimately they don't even seem that focused on building hybrid engines. They get huge behind-the-scenes subsidies etc and lets face it. Those two comapanies are bleeding money. One reason is because they agreed to rather hostile union demands but another reason is they continue t build cars that in the long run as the price of oil keeps rising will no longer be wanted.

Those companies need to particularly be looking at new car technology because its the only way they are going to get out of bleeding money (I can't imagine the debts they're holding). The fact is if they were not in the market of making cars they would probably be up for bankruptcy. Their future depends on a new concept of the car. I doubt they'll do it. Its going to be somewhere else. But if the US is really interested in keeping itself as the top economy in the world. They need to be looking at these two companies.

----

Hmm and I realise I'm spouting off what is likely to be utter crap. So yeah sure you can quote some of the things I said and debate it. But I probably won't reply back. Since I basically just used this thread as a rant. And most likely half of it is lies.

[Roy Karrde]

And the price of oil goes up due to consumption but also because many countries in OPEC have problems and when they have problems the price goes up. I notice the Americans seem to think that if the US opens up more reserves that they own that this will mean lower prices. That doesn't exactly work, since the price still has to do with the International price. And it is not in the governent's favour to hurt the oil companies, since most of them have personal interests in such things. And of course massive amount of dollars is given to these companies in the form of subsidies etc.

I don't believe the US Government would actually want to put their oil out on the international market. Infact it would most likely be leased out to the oil companies for the oil to be used only on the US Market. But while that may sound greedy, the common thought is that the US even trying to find a alternate source of oil would have a ripple effect around OPEC as they try to drive down prices before the US can slip out of their grasp and other countries follow the US' example.

As for the oil companies, mind you they are the ones advocating this, they have been for some time. The higher the price goes, the less consumption that comes out, and the lower their profits are. It isn't as if they want to have less consumption, and they know the higher the prices go, the more in the end it is going to hurt them.

[RedStarWarrior]

No offense to you Americans but in terms of real costs, you guys have some of the cheapest petrol prices in the world. A price that is way cheaper than you will see in Europe, Australia, New Zealand and elsewhere. Sorry but its hard to feel sorry for what you see say as high petrol prices, when the rest of us are paying even higher costs. Now lets see, exactly what type of cars do the two of you drive? Are they economical vehicles or are they gas guzzlers?

I would be interesting to find out really. As if they are bigger vehicles, well I wouldn't be sorry about it. But as I don't know what you drive. I can't exactly judge you on that.

Quote for mother-fucking truth.

Us Americans are spoiled and whine about paying close to what our European friends pay...fucking wankers.

[Heald]

Quote for mother-fucking truth.

Us Americans are spoiled and whine about paying close to what our European friends paid five years ago...fucking wankers.

Fixed for truth.

[RedStarWarrior]

I love you, Heald.

Heh, yeah. I have relatives that live in Italy and they tell me that gas is so cheap state-side right now.

[mr_pikachu]

Their profit margins do not stay the same as these companies are more than just retail outlets. Yeah sure, retail where the everyday person gets petrol/oil/gas profit margins do not change. But the big companies get most of their money from the actual drilling and selling to retail markets. So when prices are high, they do make money and more. Also I'm not sure they are hurt if US decreases their use, since China and elsewhere are using more and will continue to use more. Thus higher prices benefit the oil companies greatly. Its only at retail where they get hurt.

This logic is a little flawed. If retail outlets are selling less, it naturally follows that they will buy less petrol from production companies. The existence of a middleman doesn't shield the higher end of the process from negative effects. Furthermore, many retail outlets are run by the production companies themselves; BP, for instance, delves in both ends of the market from production to distribution. Saying "Its only at retail where they get hurt" doesn't work.

In any case, many so-called petroleum companies are currently trying to shift their respective businesses to become general energy companies, as they're looking to beat future market shifts toward alternative fuel sources. While I don't expect to see massive outlets in place of gas stations tomorrow, and very few people are gambling on hydrogen cell or solar-powered vehicles at present, things are apt to change eventually.

Also: Many countries are hovering around $10 a gallon (factoring in exchange rates and such). 40% of that price isn't much by comparison; it's a noteworthy shift, but we're still pretty lucky over here.

[Roy Karrde]

It should also be noted a Petition signed by 100,000 Americans is being delivered to Congress this week to encourage domestic drilling to bring down Gas Prices and to stop the Warner-Lieberman bill which would raise the cost of gasoline, diesel fuel, heating oil, and aviation fuel. At some point the Democrats in Congress are going to have to recognize the voice of the American people and get off the teet of radical Green Groups.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php...show_article=1

[Andrew]

I don't know why we should increase our dependence on a non-renewable fuel resource Roy. It would be better to use alternative forms of fuel in the long run instead of ruining some of the most picturesque places in the world (Alaska) for our short term benefit.

[Roy Karrde]

I don't know why we should increase our dependence on a non-renewable fuel resource Roy. It would be better to use alternative forms of fuel in the long run instead of ruining some of the most picturesque places in the world (Alaska) for our short term benefit.

No one isn't saying we shouldnt work on alternate forms of fuel, but this country runs on oil, from the transportation of goods to just the overall functioning of the country it needs oil. And it is going to remain that way for a few more decades.

As for ruining Alaska, the drilling area is incredibly incredibly small, we're talking I believe 1/20th the size of Washington DC in a state that is bigger than Texas. Not to mention oil drilling has advanced a long way and now has the ability not to ruin the environment.

[The Blue Avenger]

It should also be noted a Petition signed by 100,000 Americans is being delivered to Congress this week to encourage domestic drilling to bring down Gas Prices and to stop the Warner-Lieberman bill which would raise the cost of gasoline, diesel fuel, heating oil, and aviation fuel. At some point the Democrats in Congress are going to have to recognize the voice of the American people and get off the teet of radical Green Groups.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php...show_article=1

This may be pessimism, but I sincerely doubt that a petition signed by a full .05% of Americans able to vote is going to have much of an effect on anything.

[Roy Karrde]

This may be pessimism, but I sincerely doubt that a petition signed by a full .05% of Americans able to vote is going to have much of an effect on anything.

100,000 is still alot of voices, not to mention that even more didn't even know about it. Hell I didn't even know about it or I would have signed it.

[The Blue Avenger]

Yes, it's a lot of voices, but I still question how effective it'll be - I don't think it's enough to worry anybody in office. I suppose only time will tell, though.

[mr_pikachu]

I don't know why we should increase our dependence on a non-renewable fuel resource Roy. It would be better to use alternative forms of fuel in the long run instead of ruining some of the most picturesque places in the world (Alaska) for our short term benefit.

Quite right; we can't rely on oil forever. As I mentioned earlier, the oil companies agree with you and are trying to convert their businesses as such.

I'd be all for dropping gasoline and switching to an alternative fuel if that was possible. However, none of the other options have yet been developed to the point of being usable. While we may not like it, there's no choice but to rely on petrol in the short term as we prepare for the future.

As for the petition, I also question its effectiveness. It's not the number of voices that's the problem, though. After all, with most people blaming the oil companies for high gas prices and remaining ignorant to the role of OPEC (as well as the restrictions on drilling placed by the government), Congress likely sees no reason to fear.

How many people would even know if the Warner-Lieberman bill passed? How many would have even heard of it? Considering the attention span of the American public, depressingly few, I'd wager. There's more for Congressmen to gain in campaign contributions than lose in future votes.

[Roy Karrde]

How many people would even know if the Warner-Lieberman bill passed?

The sharp rise in gas prices by a dollar or more per gallon, as been expected by the Warner-Lieberman bill would pretty much clue the American people in.

How many would have even heard of it? Considering the attention span of the American public, depressingly few, I'd wager.

So far it has been under the radar but it has been making it's rounds in the news cycle for a while. The reason it isn't being hyped more is becuase the Republicans do not expect it to pass.

There's more for Congressmen to gain in campaign contributions than lose in future votes.

Mind you the drastic effects on oil prices by this bill is more than enough to keep Congress away from it. Even Democrats know this bill is political suicide and are keeping it from pretty much getting passed and or keeping it from being veto proof.

[mr_pikachu]

Fair points. I will say that a rise in prices wouldn't necessarily make the U.S. public see the light. Gas has pretty much doubled in price over the last several years, yet the majority of people don't have a clue what OPEC is. (From what I've heard from Fox News enthusiasts, even Bill O'Reilly imcomprehensibly thinks that some executive has total control and is somehow manipulating the world market.)

The truth is far too difficult for most people to believe.

[Roy Karrde]

Well mind you we're not expecting another cent or two, or a huge rise in oil prices on the stock market. The price is going to jump over a dollar or two, or even three very quickly with this sham of a bill passed. When that happens people are going to start looking for why this is happening. Democrats are already being painted as the party that has broken promises on the price of oil. They do not need to have Republicans pinning them with another reason as to why Oil Prices are getting even higher.