A theory - see what you think.

[Misty]

The recent eps have gotten me thinking, about what's changed with the show.

In particular, I'm thinking about the Dusclops eps, and the Camerupt eps. The thing about these eps is that they feel a lot more like Indigo eps. Why?

After scanning the list of eps from Indigo, and comparing to later eps, my theory was proven correct - Indigo eps were about the PEOPLE. The Pokemon were important, but often they were just as important as the people in the ep, or even less so. Think about a lot of Indigo eps - we remember them for the people, like Giselle, the Paras chick, Richie, Damien, even that horrible Melvin character. And the few eps that were about the Pokemon, the Pokemon exhibited a ton of personality - Haunter, anyone?

Compare that to Johto, and even the Orange League - Johto Journeys had Casey, and the guy from the Scizor ep. The Orangle League had some great eps from its gym leaders(especially Rudy), but otherwise the people were hardly there - I can only think of that crazy Nurse Joy. Of course, the Orange Islands were much more about Ash and Misty - so they didn't really have time for other characters. But Johto was a wasteland for actual humans. It had a lot of Pokemon-central eps - which wouldn't have been a problem if the Pokemon had been as chock-ful of personality as Haunter. But nope, these Pokemon were often one-dimensional and worthless, often trained by a useless girl of the day who would eventually disappear forever. The Bellossom, Donphan, and Ledyba eps demonstrate this perfectly.

Of course, Johto recovered with the Lugia saga and the Red Gyarados eps among other things, and finally the end - but by that time the damage had been done.

Now we have Hoenn. Hoenn hasn't really made up its mind yet - for now it's got a bit of both, combined with a number of eps for May and Max. But these recent eps really give me hope. The Dusclops eps worked well because Dusclops was just sort of there - it was the people that were important. Same with the Camerupt ep, it was the people - especially Vito.

Now, I'm not saying they should stop doing episodes centralized on Pokemon - Indigo(and even Johto; see Lugia) proved that that can be done with success. But the Pokemon has to have a well-developed personality - maybe not on level with Mewtwo, but a personality nonetheless.

Just some thoughts.

[Zak]

Hmm, interesting. Come to think, the only two Johto episodes that had more outlook on some of the people were "The Poke-Spokesman" and "Sick Daze". Well, people we already know, but still. I admit, I lost interest for a bit around 2000 in JJ, but one day I was curious to see the updates on Pokemon, and found all this exciting news about Chikorita evolving, Articuno appearing, Snap returning... and stuff about the Morty battle. But later on as I started getting back into it, I was disappointed to notice that due to Journeys a lot of my friends had lost interest, but I had regained it.

Although Champions (the middle Johto season) consisted mostly of fillers, I gotta admit that these fillers were at least more original than the Journeys ones. Wayward Wobbuffet? Air Time? Those were at least action/humor packed and I bet if an ex-Pokemon fan lost interest at Journeys and saw one of those, he would have probably given it another chance.


Oh yeah, about Hoenn. The Trickmaster > Melvin any day. ;)

~Zak

[Water Pokemon Master]

A lot of Johto bored me so badly, especially Master Quest. Boring, boring, boring!

But yeah, your theory makes sense. Pokemon centered episodes can be so boring some times.

On a theory related note, now that Togepi is gone, and if Misty comes back, I think that she will be back to her old self. Togepi apparently lets out some sort of energy that makes people happy and caring or whatever, so without Togepi, she may revert back to her old self. :)

[Crystal Mew]

Exactly. Exactly why I don't like watching many episodes, because recently it seems like it is just repetition from the last episode. (as in, Ash battles someone, Jessie and James say "oh we need that pokemon for the boss!" Meowth then daydreams on what uses it could have for the boss, later their pokemon gets stolen from TR, Ash battles TR, gets pokemon back, all is right with the world, and they say their farewells. Next episode, basically the same exact thing.) I'd rather it be more on the people, but I guess that wouldn't make it pokemon? I dunno, I think they need to take a break and have more people-centered episodes. I don't really watch pokemon anymore, heck I don't even know whats going on in the AG episodes, they are a big diappointement to me. :notfunny:

[Animelee]

I just came back from watching a great episode about Masato and Ralts, and it was definitely a very emotional episode, right up there with Butterfree's goodbye, Pikachu's Goodbye, Kasumi leaving the main group, Togetic evolving, etc. And it was about Masato! And people thought he was just a boring tacked-on emotionless addition to the show. :no:

I definitely think that from the start of Hoenn, it has definitely been like, if not a tad better, than Kanto.

I feel a lot of you who feel Kanto is better and that Pokémon is just beyond repair now are getting your judgements clouded by nostalgia. If you go back and watch a "filler" Kanto episode now, and then a "filler" episode of Hoenn, they're almost exactly the same.

And Pokémon do have personalities, still:

Kortoise (Torkoal) the I-love-everyone girl.

Juptor (Gorvyle) the I'm super badass guy.

Heigani (Corphish) the I'm oh-so-friendly, over-energetic buddy-buddy guy.

Yukiwarasi (Snorunt) the loveable prankster, which is a lot like Ghostt (Haunter).

Rumpapa (Ludicolo) the looking-for-love dance machine who'll put himself in danger to help out his friends.

Mizugoro (Mudkip) the diplomat. I'd agree that she doesn't have much of a personality...

O'osubame (Swellow) the over-serious Gutsy bastard that never gives up until he wins.

Forrets (Forretress) definitely lost his "explosive" personality when he evolved, sadly... :(

Enenko (Skitty) the over-active crazy ninja cat. I'd also agree that she doesn't have much going for her until she evolves some intelligence, heh.

Haruka's Fusigidane (Bulbasaur) who always sticks by her Trainer, no matter how hard the task.

Wakashamo (Combusken), the actual ninja girl Pokémon! This girl is one tough tomboy, and she'll do whatever she has to to win, even if it means badmouthing the opponent!

Agehunt (Beautifly), definitely does not have a personality, sadly. He/she lost it when it evolved from a Kemuso (Wurmple)... :(

Pikachu -- d'uh!

~~~

See, most of the Pokémon still have unique personalities. Some of you really need to go back and watch a few Kanto episodes -- I really think nostalgia is clouding your view on Hoenn.

Though, I definitely agree with you all on early and mid Johto, hehe... Things picked up towards the end of Johto, and just got better with Hoenn.

[Animelee]

I just came back from watching a great episode about Masato and Ralts, and it was definitely a very emotional episode, right up there with Butterfree's goodbye, Pikachu's Goodbye, Kasumi leaving the main group, Togetic evolving, etc. And it was about Masato! And people thought he was just a boring tacked-on emotionless addition to the show. :no:

I definitely think that from the start of Hoenn, it has definitely been like, if not a tad better, than Kanto.

I feel a lot of you who feel Kanto is better and that Pokémon is just beyond repair now are getting your judgements clouded by nostalgia. If you go back and watch a "filler" Kanto episode now, and then a "filler" episode of Hoenn, they're almost exactly the same.

And Pokémon do have personalities, still:

Kortoise (Torkoal) the I-love-everyone girl.

Juptor (Gorvyle) the I'm super badass guy.

Heigani (Corphish) the I'm oh-so-friendly, over-energetic buddy-buddy guy.

Yukiwarasi (Snorunt) the loveable prankster, which is a lot like Ghostt (Haunter).

Rumpapa (Ludicolo) the looking-for-love dance machine who'll put himself in danger to help out his friends.

Mizugoro (Mudkip) the diplomat. I'd agree that she doesn't have much of a personality...

O'osubame (Swellow) the over-serious Gutsy bastard that never gives up until he wins.

Forrets (Forretress) definitely lost his "explosive" personality when he evolved, sadly... :(

Enenko (Skitty) the over-active crazy ninja cat. I'd also agree that she doesn't have much going for her until she evolves some intelligence, heh.

Haruka's Fusigidane (Bulbasaur) who always sticks by her Trainer, no matter how hard the task.

Wakashamo (Combusken), the actual ninja girl Pokémon! This girl is one tough tomboy, and she'll do whatever she has to to win, even if it means badmouthing the opponent!

Agehunt (Beautifly), definitely does not have a personality, sadly. He/she lost it when it evolved from a Kemuso (Wurmple)... :(

Pikachu -- d'uh!

~~~

See, most of the Pokémon still have unique personalities. Some of you really need to go back and watch a few Kanto episodes -- I really think nostalgia is clouding your view on Hoenn.

Though, I definitely agree with you all on early and mid Johto, hehe... Things picked up towards the end of Johto, and just got better with Hoenn.

[Misty]

Kanto had a bit of a cheap advantage - it was short. There weren't a lot of fillers because there wasn't time for fillers. Then there was the Orange League. Johto's problem was that the writers suddenly had to work through THREE SEASONS with eight gyms. That means a lot of fillers. And of course, the writers probably hit a lot of writer's block and had to slap things together.

Kanto had another advantage - Ash, Misty, Brock, Jessie, James, and Meowth were entirely new characters. Every episode where they displayed something we think of as cliche - Brock's womanizing, Misty's attitude, Ash's determination - this stuff was character development in those days. I will give Hoenn credit for adding new characters, but kicking out Misty was a mistake - I'd rather see Brock leave, his character is exhausted and his position as comedy relief makes him an amateur in the face of TR. Misty was easily the only worthwhile character in the main group - Ash has zero personality, and Tracey was useless. I'm also not sold on Max, though I believe May's character has hope.

But the biggest part Kanto had going for it is that it obviously wasn't limited - as demonstrated by the many banned episodes from that season. The writers weren't the pawns of a conglomerate pandering to the kids; they were writing for a Japanese audience who were far more mature. This resulted in banned episodes, but also more mature eps that slipped through the net. This isn't all good - having the Tauros-catching ep banned sucked. But on the whole it produced better eps.

[Animelee]

Well, that is a good point, but remember when Takeshi (Brock) was dropped from the show at NoA's request, which resulted in the Orange Islands? A lot of people stopped watching, sadly. Besides, he has a lot going for him. Recently Nurse Joy was in an episode, and he didn't actually go crazy for once.

I still laugh at Team Rocket though. They get a few laughs at me every week, and at least a few of those laughs are actually loud belly-laughs.

But, I do kind of agree with Takeshi a bit. Really, the only Pokémon he has going for him is Rumpapa (Ludicolo). His other two Pokémon tend to do nothing, especially Forrets (Forretress). They need to work on him a little -- at least by letting Mizugoro (Mudkip) evolve. But he still gets laughs from me when he's after a girl, even when Masato (Max) interrupts and pulls his ear. Even that is funny sometimes, because his ear is big, red, streched out, and looks like a satellite dish, heh.

There are still "edgy" things in Pokémon. Well, edgy by kid show standards -- no sexual innuendo. I mean, flamboyantly gay characters, more detailed violence in battles without those "star cards" that pop up when someone gets hit on the head, and stuff like that. And it's not like they're scared to use guns -- in Hoenn, that hunter, Ryo I think his name was, had a gun when he was kidnapping the Arbo and Dogas (Ekans and Koffing) in AG 006.

Haha, I see you are a Kasumi fan, after all, you are named after her. I do feel she was fiesty, but when she got Togepi, it kind of made her into a "teen mother", and she had to spend most of her time holding Togepi and babying Togepi. Hopefully now that Togepi, err, Togetic is gone, and when Hoenn is over, Kasumi'll return. I mean, if you've ever gotten a chance to see those HoSo specials with Kasumi -- wo-ho-ho, she's as fiesty as she ever was.

Satoshi has a personality, albeit it's the same one he always had. It'd be kind of weird to all of a sudden add to his personality, or change it, because then he wouldn't be the same person we've followed since 1998, and then we'd just complain about Satoshi's new personality, heh.

Oh believe me, there's a lot of Masato character development coming up in the following year (if you follow the dub).

To me, like I said, Hoenn is just a bit better than Kanto, and I am very excited to see what the Diamond and Pearl region has in store. :D

[Misty]

Orange Islands was a very odd season - it wasn't canon, it had Tracey, it had a ton of Pokeshipping, and it was extremely short. Believe me, Brock leaving was the least of the reasons that people stopped watching then.

[Blackjack Gabbiani]

What do you mean it wasn't canon?

[Misty]

It wasn't related to the games at all.

[Crystal Mew]

Misty > Brock. When Brock left the show, I was kinda sad, but not really. When Misty left I was like "what!!! :no:" I'd really rather have Misty back,to replace May, or replace Brock, whoever. lol And now that togepi is gone....yay! haha but thats just my opinion, hopefully Misty will come back in time for whatever region they are going to next o_O