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Heald
6th January 2005, 11:40 AM
LOS ANGELES — Marvel Enterprises is suing two firms behind a computer superhero role-playing game it claims allows players to make virtual characters that are too similar to "The Hulk," "X-Men" and other heroes in the comic book company's stable.
The lawsuit claims South Korea-based NCSoft and San Jose-based Cryptic Studios violated Marvel's trademark characters in their game City of Heroes. Marvel seeks unspecified damages and an injunction against the two companies to stop using its characters.

The personal computer game enables players to design superheroes' look and abilities and then battle against other players' characters in a virtual city. Like similar so-called massively multiplayer role-playing games where thousands of players can be playing simultaneously at any given time, City of Heroes claims to offer a myriad of combinations so that no two players' characters are exactly the same.

But in its lawsuit, filed Wednesday in U.S. District Court, Marvel argues that the game's character creation engine easily allows players to design characters that are virtual copies of its own superheros, including "The Incredible Hulk."

The company singles out a game feature for creating "a gigantic, green, 'science-based tanker'-type hero that moves and behaves nearly identically" to the "Hulk." Players can also create a "mutant-based" hero powers and a costume nearly identical to Marvel's "Wolverine," according to the suit.

The New York-based company also took issue with the ability of players to go so far as to name their superhero creations after Marvel comic book characters.

Marvel claims the firms' are responsible because the game is played on servers operated by the companies, raising the question of whether a company is responsible for their customers' actions on its computer server.

Marvel also claims the companies have disrupted its "existing and future" business prospects for licensing its characters in video games similar to City of Heroes.

An e-mail sent to NCSoft seeking comment was not immediately returned after-hours Thursday. No number was listed for Cryptic Studios.

The Marvel lawsuit appears to be the first to raise this question in the scope of an online game. But early copyright infringement lawsuits brought by recording companies against pioneer file-sharing service Napster successfully argued Napster was liable for its customers' sharing of music online because they could do so only by accessing the company's computer system.

The argument can still be made that City of Heroes is only empowering users to the same degree that an establishment like Kinkos enables customers to make paper copies of copyrighted material, said Fred von Lohmann, senior intellectual property attorney with the Electronic Frontier Foundation.

"Is it a violation of copyright to make up a character in the virtual world or is that fair use?" von Lohmann said. "This is really untested ground in the courts."

Copyright 2004 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.Click here for link (http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2004-11-11-marvel-sues-over-avatars_x.htm?csp=15)

Does City of Heroes have a naming restriction policy? Games like World of Warcraft, Planetside and Star Wars Galaxies have rules saying that your names cannot be copyrighted, so surely City of Heroes would be the same.

Anyway, I don't really see why Marvel is menstruating over this. It's not like they're losing money. Sure, the majority of the people who play this are probably fans of their comics (not avid readers, say, but like X-Men and Spiderman and the like) and so some 'influence' may creep in but they aren't exactly going to like Marvel if this, from what I've heard, brilliant MMORPG is pulled off the internet. The arguments are incredibly weak e.g. 'mutants' = X-men? Great, call up the dictionary companies, mutant is now owned by Marvel, case closed. Gotta love this too:
Marvel also claims the companies have disrupted its "existing and future" business prospects for licensing its characters in video games similar to City of Heroes.Boo hoo, they thought of a MMORPG with superheroes before you did, sorry, you lose.

However, this could have more serious consequences. In the unlikely event that CoH loses, it opens up every single creator in any video game for suing. Would the makers of DragonballZ take issue with games such as WWE Smackdown which include everything from Super Saiyan hair to Goku's taunts? Or even the great Half-Life mod Earth's Special Forces? The owners of the Lord of the Rings franchise could sue games like Neverwinter Nights for allowing people to make copies of Legolas and Gimli. The list is endless.

Discuss.

fat man with a monkey
6th January 2005, 12:04 PM
1) REALLY old news
2) Hmmm, I want to make my character look and act like wolverine... damn, I must HATE comic books, and I will never buy one again....
I can see where marvel would get pissed, but is it worth giving themselves a black eye? Not in my opinion. And that's what I believe is going on. I'm sure you could copy some DC heroes, but do we hear DC messing their britches over this one?

Heald
6th January 2005, 12:51 PM
Ack, I should have put 'Marvel sued City of Heroes'. I guess the lack of updates on this news means Marvel gave up on it then.

But still, the discussion aspect of it still applies. Are character creation tools breach of copyright?

fat man with a monkey
6th January 2005, 12:58 PM
Character creation tools are not breaches of copyright. Character creators, on the other hand, can be. But, is persecuting your fan base something that you want to do? When I was but a young'un, my friends and I used to play teenage mutant ninja turtles, X-men, all sorts of little pretend games. Had Marvel come up to my door, and said "cease and desist" I'd hate them now. I really think that's kinda what's going on. "Let's play pretend!" "Sure you can, just not with superheroes that resemble ours." Although, I do think a costume design that looks like wolverine's is going a little far. And, in my opinion, playing games with certain characters makes you feel a connection with that character. I don't think it'd be negatvie for Marvel, even if they are/were planning on a marvel hero mmorpg. If it would be a better game, people would buy it. That's what it, in all honesty, would come down to if marvel made an mmorpg.

Razola
6th January 2005, 02:09 PM
Yeah, this news is old as shit.

And you aren't allowed to create any copyrighted characters. Period. As a matter of fact, most of the popular characters have their names blocked when you roll a characters, thus names like "The Holk" and other stupidity exists. If a GM caught you with such a rip-off, you'll have to get a new name and possibly change your costume.

It's part of the Agreement when you play CoH, and it's been a rule since Day 1. They have no case, you can't sue a person because someone broke their rules. That's like if a British Citizen stabbed me, should I sue the UK because I was stabbed.

Since Marvel hooked up with EA, it's really no surprise seeing them be bastards like this.

Heald
6th January 2005, 02:24 PM
Since Marvel hooked up with EA, it's really no surprise seeing them be bastards like this.Holy shit, for real? I hate it when EA gets decent licences because then you know the games are going to be shit.

HavoX
6th January 2005, 02:57 PM
speaking of Marvel...

I recieved the latest PC Gamers in the mail on Tuesday and I read the Review article on page 42 that Chuck Osborn (Senior Editor of PCG) was being sued by Marvel Enterprises for ripping off their trademark "Hulk" character.

In case you don't know what I mean, this is how it all started...

Chuck: CHULK SMASH!
Marvel: Lawsuit time.

Heald
6th January 2005, 04:05 PM
The Hulk was a shitty comic.

I thought Stan Lee was meant to be a fun kind-of guy, not some jackass who sues people left and right because he doesn't want catchphrases being used. Then again, he's probably playing with his Spider-Man toys while his legal team are behind his back destroying the integrity of the company.

fat man with a monkey
6th January 2005, 04:18 PM
Stan Lee is chairman emeritus (sp) of marvel, but doesn't do the legal stuff. Stan Lee pretty much just writes, and he's happy doing that.

Heald
6th January 2005, 04:22 PM
But surely he has some say in whether or not his legal team can rape the reputation of his company...?

fat man with a monkey
6th January 2005, 04:29 PM
I dunno. Mostly the shit I know is about old marvel (early '70's - about '88 ). ever since the bankruptcy in the 90's, a lot of shit over there's changed. Google it or a take a look at marvel to see what power stan lee has in the company.
EDIT: **** you 8) smilie go to hell

HavoX
6th January 2005, 04:32 PM
EDIT: **** you 8) smilie go to hellthere is a "Disable smilies in text" feature

try using that next time

fat man with a monkey
6th January 2005, 04:42 PM
well, what if I want to use another smilie, but not that one? or what if I want to ninja reply and not go through the shit of using that feature?

PNT510
6th January 2005, 04:48 PM
Stan Lee is chairman emeritus (sp) of marvel, but doesn't do the legal stuff. Stan Lee pretty much just writes, and he's happy doing that.
Stan Lee doesn't even write anymore. As far as I can tell he's pretty much only public face the company has.

fat man with a monkey
6th January 2005, 04:55 PM
Stan Lee assisted in the writing and plotting of parts of Spider-Man and other marvel movies, but I think, on the whole, you're right. He acts as well -- cameo appearances in marvel movies.

The Muffin Man
7th January 2005, 01:19 AM
By saving people.

PokeLady Jeannette
8th January 2005, 08:44 AM
If only the makers of City of Heroes sought out Matt and Trey instead. (Remember what happened after South Park first debuted on Comedy Central?)

And as for you Marvel Comics, you should have known when to ***k off. (sorry for my well, use of Japanese potty mouth, gomen nasai.) You already have a great comic empire and helped to put the Hulk, Spiderman and X-Men on big movie screens. Don't ruin it for the rest of us by using legal manipulation.

PS. At least it was easier in Japan. City Of Heroes would be paying tribute to Marvel instead of ripping them off. (Remember, in Japan, making a show that's kind of like the other is the way of honouring your competitors. America should learn from this.)
PPS. I have been a bad French/Chinese woman (from a Japanese POV). I would like a cute geisha to spank my behind, because if I said the k-word, or that one starting with s and has 7 letters, I will be spanked.

Heald
8th January 2005, 08:50 AM
Plagiarism is the best form of flattery.

PNT510
8th January 2005, 02:30 PM
I like how everyone is treating Marvel like crap in this thread. They may have went about it the wrong way, but Marvel is just trying to protect it's own IP.

ryandude713
8th January 2005, 03:27 PM
The problem I have with this lawsuit, is that people will continue to do it no matter what Marvel says. I've seen people that are copies of Storm, Wolverine, Hulk, Gladiator (poorly done), The Flash, Superman, Captain America (poorly done), Spiderman (poorly done), The Thing, Invisible Woman, Iron Man, And a few other ones that aren't worth mentioning. Stupid people... when will they learn?

Musourenka
8th January 2005, 05:42 PM
I like how everyone is treating Marvel like crap in this thread. They may have went about it the wrong way, but Marvel is just trying to protect it's own IP.

I, for one, view IP as nothing more than coercive monopoly privileges, and thus, am strongly against Marvel on this one.

PNT510
8th January 2005, 10:00 PM
You view them that way because you're an idiot. If companies couldn't protect their IP, what would keep me from stealing someone elses idea and using at as my own?

Musourenka
9th January 2005, 08:21 PM
You view them that way because you're an idiot. If companies couldn't protect their IP, what would keep me from stealing someone elses idea and using at as my own?

Nothing, honestly (though you probably would get complaints and customers would hear about it from those companies, hurting your reputation). The thing is, you can't steal an idea; Intellectual Property is not property. If I use an idea or character that's "owned" by someone in a game or book I wrote, and then sell that book or game (and claim everything in the book was my idea, and mine alone), does the "owner" somehow lose the character or idea? Granted this is dishonest, but it is not stealing.

IP is a monopoly right abused by coorporations all the time. It is essentially saying that you have the right to force people to not use property in certain ways, even if those uses harm no one nor anyone's property. I can't accept that as right.

The Muffin Man
9th January 2005, 10:26 PM
You're saying Marvels NOT at fault?

You are aware the Cryptic has a clause in their agreement that if you copy a pre-existing, copywritten comic character, they reserve the right to delete the character, and ban you from the server the character was on without any warning, right?

This alone makes them pretty much safe from Marvel suing them and doing anything but dragging it on and draining Cryptic so their own MMORPG can take the market.

Razola
9th January 2005, 11:56 PM
Sorry, but there's protecting your properties and then there's being a tightass. These people aren't making money off Marvel's characters and it was already stated that these people were breaking rules since day one. That's why NCSoft and Cryptic made that rule in the first place. Now what the hell is the point of making that rule if NCSoft can get nailed whether people follow it or not. If a sexual predator stalks a person on CoH or WoW, should the cops hold the companies responsible as well? THe same logic applies, more or less.

EDIT: Marvel WAS working on a superhero MMORPG at one point, but the project fell apart. Nonetheless, I wouldn't be surpised at all if they still had it on the backburners.

rinku
11th January 2005, 09:58 PM
Marvel have been like this for decades. My guess is that the legal action was a tool so that they could have a good look inside the CoH operation.

However, keep in mind that you generally have to actively pursue copyright violations, or you can lose the right to do so. If someone has been using your trademark or copyright without you objecting for a certain time, they can gain the right to keep doing so legally. And if *you* fail to use your trademark you lose the right to it. That's one of the main reasons Marvel & DC keep bringing back new characters with the same names (cf. various Captain Marvels). I can understand them being hair-trigger over this sort of thing - the last thing they need is for Spiderman to move into the public domain...

However, as long as the costume and name are sufficiently different there really is no case. Powers are pretty much meaningless, since so many "different" superheroes are basically the same. Have a bulky, berserk *red* character called "The Red Basher" and Marvel pretty much can't object (though you might want to get Scott McCloud's permission).

PokeLady Jeannette
13th January 2005, 09:58 AM
And for DC Comics...you interfere legally as well, and I will be, very very, very....angry!!! I do not like companies legally crushing us into oblivion.

PS. I swear, next time an American entertainment or comic company uses legal manipulation against us, I'll find out who did it, then have that person killed!!!

The Muffin Man
13th January 2005, 10:06 AM
And for DC Comics...you interfere legally as well, and I will be, very very, very....angry!!! I do not like companies legally crushing us into oblivion.

PS. I swear, next time an American entertainment or comic company uses legal manipulation against us, I'll find out who did it, then have that person killed!!!

Yeah that'll work. Because threats of violence on the internet don't make you look like an idiot.