Brock! Save Pewter Gym! *a couple spoilers on this episode/special*

[Zak]

-Flint has a Golem.

-Brock drops all his Pokemon except Forretress, and gives them to his younger brother Jiroo(second oldest in the family.

-Brock's Mom, Mizuho, is there, alive. Apparently it was a false rumor that she passed away. Her Pokemon consist of Blastoise, Tentacruel, Vaporeon, Poliwhirl, Slowpoke, Marill, Mantine, Gyarados. Seems she likes Water types.

-Brock's whole family is introduced. Here's the family list, from oldest to youngest:

Brock
Jiroo
Saburoo
Yomoko
Mitsuko
Nanako
Yaoki
Kurou
Touko

We know Nanako used to have an Abra.


I'll come back once I get more info!


~Zak

[RJdude]

NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!! He's getting rid of Crobat? HOW COULD HE? That was his strongest Pokemon. Of all the Pokemon he had to keep, it had to be Forretress. Oh well, Forretress isn't that bad. But I wish he had keep Crobat...

Thanks for the info, Zak.

[Barbara LeMaster]

I guess the "leave all Pokémon behind when you go to Houen" theory applies to Brock as well.

What do you want to bet the English dub names for Brock's familiy will include Grant, Steele, Garnet, Crystal, Amethyst, Jade, or Micah (like mica, the stone)?

And I wonder how the dubbers will explain Brock's mother reappearing. In the dub version, she was declared dead.

[Zak]

Originally posted by Barbara LeMaster
I guess the "leave all Pokémon behind when you go to Houen" theory applies to Brock as well.

What do you want to bet the English dub names for Brock's familiy will include Grant, Steele, Garnet, Crystal, Amethyst, Jade, or Micah (like mica, the stone)?

And I wonder how the dubbers will explain Brock's mother reappearing. In the dub version, she was declared dead.

I don't think you understood what I meant about Brock's Mom. In the Japanese version, she may have also been declared dead.... but I meant that in the STORY ITSELF Flint thinks Mizuho is dead, so he says so. Just because Flint says she's dead in the fifth ep, that doesn't mean she's dead. It was probably a rumor within the story itself, i.e. a red herring. It's called Irony.

~Zak

[pokemonm]

is it standerd that if you come some wher eles you must only take one pokemon or just end up that way

[Volco]

But I read a guide when team rocket has pikachu and ash doesn't have any pokemon so it looks like he is lost but brock comes back and uses onix to save the day. That is when brock meets up with ash again. I read this on serebii board in a summary.

P.S. because brocks mom has all those water pokemon do you think that is why he starts to train water pokemon.

[Bashamo909]

the english version did not say she died. they just said that she did'nt make it. so that doesnt mean she died.

[Kasumi Chan]

Some interesting news. So I presume Brock gives all of his pokémon, except Forretress to Jiroo to save Pewter's Gym and to travel to Houen and join Ash.
Brock's mom appearance is also intriguing. I guess in this special episode some of our questions about her and Flint will be answered. :o

I'm glad the writers are doing this kind of episodes, focusing on characters like Brock and Misty.

[Hiro]

Humm Interesting, I only know brock had many brothers and sisters, but I have never heard of their names.:) Nice info.

[Mew2Too]

Okay, there's a loose end tied up. I have a question now. Next week's speical is about Misty, right? So, by the title "Revenge Battle!" what can we conclude from this? Who's battling Misty, and will Misty leave for Houen? She'll doubtlessly found out that Ash has departed for that region. I doubt she'll sit on her butt at the gym. She's leaving for sure- I wanna say I can almost guarantee it! Maybe she'll get wrapped up in her Pokemon journey in Houen. She won't meet up with Ash until season 2 begins. I think she has farther to travel to get to Houen than Brock does. Maybe in future specials- she will be getting Gym badges?

Maybe we'll finally get to see Misty shine, Tracey meet up with his older brother, Professor Oak do something other than put on a show, Oodamaki in shoes and not sandal, Elm having a gay love affair with Captain Marius, Kenter and Marina see Houen, Mewtwo meets Sanaarito and gets the baby-makin' machine a goin', the story of Kurisu Bakayuushi finally told outside of the fan fics, Keitaroo Urishima and Takeshi find out they are really long lost relatives with a common seiyuu and decide to chase girls together to celebrate, Agatha gets a bunyon...

Okay, well, maybe not that much. But, I think they'll do more specials that revolve around both main and secondary characters. (Main chars meaning Misty and Tracey.)

EDIT: Oh, yeah! And before anyone crucifies me for saying that- I do feel strongly Misty will leave her Gym for Houen. I don't believe she will reach Ash's party until the end of the season. Houen is a _very_ big region. I think it is bigger than Johto, and I'm surprised Brock even catches up with Ash's party. I also think Misty getting badges herself would be a neat twist, especially if she used Pokemon other than Water types. Could make for good specials to tide us over for her return.

I also think that these specials will go over well in Japan. They are answering the questions that were never answered when Shudo-san was in charge. I am actually very excited about the way Yuyama-san is doing things. He's finally treating Pokemon like a real anime. I'm also excited about how Yuyama-san's storylines will probably affect the special edition of Ru/Sa. It has been going around the web that it would be nice if you could return to Kanto and Johto in that version. I personally feel that if that's true, Jiroo will be in charge of the Pewter Gym in the game. (Finally lining it up with the anime.)

I also think that someone is eventually going to take over the Cerulean Gym- and I don't mean her b*tchy sisters! (They don't even deserve a gym!) My suspicions tell me it is Ryuguu- and that's why I think Misty might ditch the gym next week. (I think Misty won her first match with Ryuguu, so the title "Revenge Battle!" might really apply to the situation if all this turns out ot be the case.) I think she might have Ryuguu take the Gym after losing to him, and then head for Houen to meet Ash. However, since she wasn't in this season's promo poster, it is obvious she won't make it back this season. So, maybe she gets side-tracked. It would be easy to do in Houen. Like I say, I think Misty laying down the mantle of Gym Leader and just becoming a badge-grubbing trainer like the rest of us would really be interesting. (Especially if she didn't have Ash's own career looming over her.)

EDIT 2: Oh, and, as always- thanks for the info, Zak! ^_^

[Murgatroyd]

Originally posted by Volco
But I read a guide when team rocket has pikachu and ash doesn't have any pokemon so it looks like he is lost but brock comes back and uses onix to save the day. That is when brock meets up with ash again. I read this on serebii board in a summary.
That was speculation at best, outright lies at worst. Nothing is yet known about how Brock rejoins Ash.

[Crystal Mew]

=O what I cant beleive is that Brocks mom is alive.
She probably just faked death to get out of raising all those kids herself =/

well..anyways,sounds pretty intresting, thanks Zak ^_^

[The Rusted One]

Originally posted by Zak
-Brock's whole family is introduced. Here's the family list, from oldest to youngest:

Brock
Jiroo
Saburoo
Yomoko
Mitsuko
Nanako
Yaoki
Kurou
Touko

I'm actually wondering as to whether there is another child there...the names seem to follow a "number" trend, but it's offset by one.

"Mitsuko" - "mitsu" is one reading of the kanji for 6; but "Mitsuko" is the fifth child.
"Nanako" - "nana" is 7, but "Nanako" is child number 6.
"Kurou" - "kyuu" is 9, but the kanji for 9 can also be read as "kuu", depending on circumstance. "Kurou" is child 8.
"Touko" - "Tou" is a reading of the kanji for 10. And yes, you guessed it, "Touko" is the 9th child.

[AKA Pokemon Fan]

the english version did not say she died. they just said that she did'nt make it. so that doesnt mean she died.
Actually his exact words were "she passed away," a phrase which is rarely used except when referring to death.

Anyway, over the years I've read several times from the translators on serebii.net that in the Japanese version Flint said that Brock's mother left/ran away from the family (like Flint it seems), leaving Brock to take care of everyone (no wonder the guy is so nuts when all the responsibility he has is Ash and company).

Anyway this episode sounds great! We've always known more about Brock's family than the other characters, and now it seems all pertinent questions will be answered.

I won't put Misty leaving for Houen out of the question but I find it very unlikely. Misty won't leave the gym unless she by some chance finds someone who can be trusted to take care of it and act as Gym Leader.


-Brock's Mom, Mizuho, is there, alive. Apparently it was a false rumor that she passed away. Her Pokemon consist of Blastoise, Tentacruel, Vaporeon, Poliwhirl, Slowpoke, Marill, Mantine, Gyarados. Seems she likes Water types.
Irony, irony, I wonder if Flint and Mizuho have had lots of fights over their different type preferences. Nah... probably not. Anyway she seems to be a pretty powerful trainer.


-Brock drops all his Pokemon except Forretress, and gives them to his younger brother Jiroo(second oldest in the family.
Hold up, I sure hope this means he's only giving them to him on a temporary basis, i.e like Misty's Starmie and Horsea, with him still retaining ownership. Otherwise he's going to have to basically start over with his breeding work.

[Chris 2.1]

maybe when misty (if) she goes to Houen, she'll take Starmie and Seadra?

[Mew2Too]

Originally posted by ShinyMarill
maybe when misty (if) she goes to Houen, she'll take Starmie and Seadra?

I'm hoping for Psyduck. :D I'm also hoping she'll leave for Houen in her special next week, but won't catch up with Ash until the second season. (Leaving her a few more of her own special episodes to shine in.)

[Bacl]

What really bothers me is how the anime is forced to mimic the pokemon on the gameboy games so exactly. Just because Onix can't be caught in R/S, Brock is forced to leave his behind on the show. That really ticks me off. Brock was very close to his Onix, and it was the coolest thing for him to bring out in battle (especially early on when Ash only had small pokemon...it was cool to see this giant Onix appear). It just doesn't seem right. What happened to being friends for life with your pokemon. "Oh sorry old friend, you can't be caught in the new video game and since I'm a walking ad for the game I need to take only pokemon that can be caught and leave you behind." ::sigh:: It's just not Brock without Onix.

[Damian Silverblade]

I'll just note that both Pineco and Forettress are uncatchable in RS as well, so don't try to say that they are forcing Takeshi to drop those just to match the RS catchable.

If they did that, Takeshi would be taking Crobat along.

[Ogremon]

He would also be taking Geodude, which I really wish he would. I've always wanted to see it evolve.

[Ashi-chan]

Wow, this new info is REALLY intriguing! Takeshi-kun's mother is revealed--a water trainer, huh?--and we find out more 'bout his family, i.e. his bros. and sisters actually have NAMES and some importance in the episode.

Maaan, now I REALLY wanna watch this ep.! It's already been aired in Japan, right?

[HeWiE]

The synopsis I read was at the Pokemopolis Dodge Forums by one of our Japanese dodgers. It looks quite amusing - from what I've read, apparently Brock's parents get back together (quite sickeningly too, at that), Brock still berates his parents about being worthless nobodies, and his mother is obsessed with cute things.

[Guardian Lugia]

Originally posted by ShinyMarill
maybe when misty (if) she goes to Houen, she'll take Starmie and Seadra?

I hope Starmie and Kingdra

So, Brocks mom's a Water Pokemon trainer. And in Houen, Brock will get Mizugorou and Hasuboo. Maybe he decided to follow his mother in becoming a water Pokemon trainer?
I know, from Rock/Ground to Water is quite a change, but why else whould Brock get water Pokemon?

[EmpressMyuu]

Well, I hope that Misty comes back, her Horsea, Psyduck, and Togepi evolve (Togetic would be a cute addition to the show), Brock gets his Onix back and it evolves, Mewtwo gets another special movie (possibly a Pokémon saga like the Lugia one), Ash captures at least ONE legendary (Ho-oh is the most likely), and I can star on the show for once!...Well, I know the last part's never gonna happen...

[Chris 2.1]

Originally posted by EmpressMyuu
Well, i hope Ash captures at least ONE legendary (Ho-oh is the most likely)

i think any legendary is least likely. even though ash has seen pretty much most of them, they're name legendary is derived from legend. legends aren't weak enough to be captured and, although ash has a symbolism bond with Ho-oh in a way, i doubt he'll be caught.

[BenRG]

All this speculation about Brock and his family is quite interesting. I find myself wondering if Brock's mother is related to Misty's family (maybe a maternal aunt). After all, she is a redhead who likes water-types... ;)

I am interested to see how Brock saves the Boulder Gym and from what. First blow by Team Magma, maybe? And perhaps the episode with Misty will debut Team Aqua? That would explain why Brock goes to Houen - to warn Ash about the new bad guys on the block. 8)

[Ashi-chan]

Yeah, I wonder that too. How, why, and from whom he saves Nibi Gym.

Takeshi-kun! My hero! (hugs hard)

[HeWiE]

Le sigh. Brock saves the gym from his mother!!!!!1 He saves it from turning into a kawaii waterden, basically. To avoid confusion, an episode synopsis from Pokemopolis - not a Tim one, but by another dodger.




[Scene rises.]

Brock stands, looking over Pewter City. Suddenly, a low voice growls out that he is about to find a terrible thing waiting for him... Pan down to an ominous, dark, shadowed figure with a red hat and a dark, spiky beard. Brock rips off the disguise, yelling out "I know it's you, Pops." Why the hell isn't he at home taking care of the kids and the gym?

Flint is saddened, completely without backbone. "But the Pewter Gym is no longer for me. It was the best gym, stately and imposing... but now it's all gone to hell..."

Brock: Why?

Flint: Mizuho-chan's returned.

Brock: Mom's back?

Flint: Yup.

Brock: Mom, huh... [A slight sweatdrop.]

+ + +
TAKESHI! NIBI GYM O SUKUE!
BROCK! FREE (or empty) THE PEWTER GYM!
+ + +

Father and son approach the gym, the latter annoyed and driven; the former penitent and ashamed.

Flint: it'd be good if you prepared yourself.

The gym is still shaped by a big rock... but now it's surrounded by a huge lawn, with decorative trees, cute flowers and a hedge. There is much sweatdropping. The gym is closed, obviously. They turn to the house, a nice two story the likes of which are quite popular in Japanese tract housing nowadays. (you can order them and people come and build it on wherever your lot is. They all look like they're made of blocks or legos... and possibly they are.)

Anyway, they enter. All the kids (and yes, there are nine of them, for ten kids in all) seem happy (tho not especially excited or surprised) to see Brock back.

He walks into the living room, and there she is, straightening some modern art on the wall. Mizuho, Brock's mom. She has reddish-brownish hair in a chin (shoulder?) length smooth/blobby style. (so, it doesn't fall much past her chin but the actual hairs probably go to her shoulder, get it?) So, maybe it isn't -truly- red. I admit, before i'd just caught a glimpse in a preview that I caught by chance. Still, if fangirls can call Gary a redhead, she certainly is. Anyhoo, she's got wide brown eyes with sharpish eyelashes, and really big boobs. I mention this because the struck me; the breasts and eyes and hair, as they don't fit the Pokemon art style much at all. They are more reminiscent of something like Slayers. Gosh, I wish I had a screencap machine or something; I'd hook you up. Maybe someday Serebii will return...

Oh yeah, Brock. So he walks into the living room and she's primping some art (can you do that?)

Mom: Hey Brock. What do you think of this picture? Isn't it cute?

That's it. No 'hi', no 'how's it going', no 'sorry for making you raise all my kids for years'. ...of course, now that I think of it, I'm not actually sure how many years Brock actually took care of the kids anyway. (I -am- a sorry excuse for a fangirl, aren't I...)

Brock: why the hell is mom talking about stuff being cute?

Flint: I'll show you.

The three go back to the gym, entering this time.

Mom: isn't it cute?

Brock: [dumbstruck] It's.. it's horrible.

Flint: [commiserating] Yes.

Brock gets a bit miffed at his mother. The gym's been decorated. It is no longer dark and ominous. There's cutesy pink, yellow and blue lines (streamers?) and decorations everywhere. You can't be a zen master here. You can't intimidate little first starting out crack babies like Ash here. Plus, to make matters worse, there's water in the gym. Like lots of it. Like the gym was flooded to house all these water pokemon she's got. Caught 'em all herself, she did; some good and powerful ones too, like Gyrados and Blastoise and stuff. But that doesn't stop Brock from being angry at the... the desecration of his gym.

Flint: Look what she's done! Brock... help us! [Brock berates him for being so worthless, and Flint gets all blue lines and crouches into a fetal position, much like post-Ivy Brock. He's completely whipped.]

Brock goes super swoll. He challenges her to a pokemon battle. (actually, he challenges Flint to challenge her-- as he's supposedly the gym leader.) If he wins, gym goes back to normal. She agrees, but if she wins, the stuff stays because it's just so CUTE. (it's not cute. it's horrifying. reminiscent of some of the fashion designs of Chez Roquet. But to each his own.)


"You can't win," say all the kids. Water types kick rock type *** easy. Flint agrees. Brock says **** you all, and in the spirit of Ash, I'll barrel towards what I want until I get it or am distracted by other, shinier things.

So... fight!

Mom sends out Marril, who chills in the water. Flint sends out Golem, who is perched on this tiny rock poking above the water (and not particularly happy about it). She lets him go first. Golem does earthquake. Makes a giant tidalwave. Marril is swept away... but instead of victory, Marril returns, riding the wave back towards the rock-type, crushing the golem with water. It drowns, but she sends a blastoise after it. There's a -really- cute shot of Blastoise and Marril pumping the water out of the poor golem. Brock dries him off with a hair dryer. (he learned it helped them get better faster from being a breeder. ...)

Before either of the adults can do anything too drastic, Brock tells them they'd better talk to each other and work things out. (He's still pretty disappointed in his father tho.)

Now, Flint is a total disgrace. He's depressed and his gym is now a water gym. He says he's no longer needed... so Mizuho can do what she wants.

Mom: You don't understand me at all! I wanted you to want this gym more than anyone! I just did all this stuff (decorating and water, I assume) so you could feel good.

Flint: ?

Mom: Flint... maybe I've refused rock pokemon too much. Do you still want me around?

Flint: I wanted to see you again, but...

Mom: Yeah.. I did everything so you could be happy. I want to be together again.

Flint: I'm sorry for letting you go for so long.

By this point it's turned into extreme love-love as you'd say in Japanese... The air around them turns pink and the music gets sappier and their eyes (well, hers anyway) get sparkly and they hold hands and just a general WAFFy air.

Cut to dinnertime. (All of the kids helped with the cooking, but only Brock got the pink apron of power.) The kids are all swoll that their mom and dad are feeding each other in a sickeningly cute way. Brock is teeth-grittingly bearing it (sorry, I've forgotten English) "It can't be helped," he grunts.

Mom: Wow, Brock, your food has gotten so much better!

Brock: Yeah, it had to, because you guys are never home.

Mom: a-hehhehheh...

So what's up with the gym, Brock asks. Well, the parents have made a compromise... and they begin to get all cute, attributing their ability to compromise to the other ad nauseum... Brock gets superswoll again, getting them back on task. (if it was Ranma, he'd be getting a really big head, like Soun Tendo. uh, don't ask me where that came from.)

Flint: So... we're goona be a both rock and water gym from now on. It makes us a unique gym!

Mom: and it'd be really cute!

Brock is about to blow a gasket, when the next brother down does it for him.

Jiro: No! What about the rock-types? They can't do **** on a field made of water! What the hell, you're supposed to be a gym leader! [runs from the room.]

Brock: Whoa... what crawled up his butt?

Sister: Well, since you were gone, Jiro was geared up to be the next gym leader...

Brock: Oh.

Figuring someone should go after Jiro (because that's what always happens in stories such as this), and knowing that both his parents really ought to be arrested for negligence, Brock goes after him. He finds him sitting on the edge of a cliff (tho not the kind one jumps off of, at least not for dying purposes.) They talk. Jiro is surprised that Brock didn't want to be a gym leader. He had no idea that Brock wanted to be a breeder. Jiro is amped about being gym leader tho... "it's such a cool job." Too bad their gym is covered in pink **** and drowned in water.

Brock says to leave everything to him; he would have just taken care of everything from the beginning, but that wouldn't have filled the twenty minutes of airtime. Screw weaknesses... he'd kick Mom's pokemons' asses. Jiro is slightly nonplussed, but appreciates the gesture.

Next day. The happy couple have designed a new sign for the gym, and show it to Brock for his opinion. It's a huge wave crashing into a stately cliff, a blastoise posing in the foreground. "Isn't it cute?" Mom asks.

Brock has nothing of it, cracking and crumbling the sign with an idle backhand. Pewter Gym HAS to be a rock-type gym, he declares. I'll beat Mom even on her water field.

Mom: Why you gotta be so scary?

They file inside. Now, Flint referees the battle. He doesn't seem particularly excited about rocking the boat with Mom, nor particularly optimistic about his chances against the water types, but whatever... Onix v. Mantine... fight!

Brock: Watch this, Jiro.

Onix does dig. The water drains...... somewhere. Okay, I guess it stands to reason that if you have a rock gym for rock types that you'll be able to dig into the ground without it really messing up your plumbing. But... there was a ****load of water that just disappeared somewhere. I mean, what happened to it all? ...I dunno. I guess that's why I don't write anime episodes. Anyway, so the water's gone. Mantine flops for a while. (but they can fly! ..or at least mine can..)

Okay, Mantine remembers it can fly. It swoops around and attacks with bubble, but Onix catches it in a bind. However, eventually Onix has to let it go, after getting pelted by several bubble attacks. Mantine flies away, then comes to swoop back with a close up bubble attack... and Onix uses tail whip (which I didn't know onixes could know..), and knocks Mantine out. Onix wins!

Wow! kids say. The rock type could take so much damage... good job, you rock, Brock! (...sorry.)

Mom: ...So do we really have to change the gym? I mean, we can keep the cute decorations, right? [Brock's veins start twitching]

Dad: I agree with your mother.

Mom: I love you baby... [more love-love]

Brock: Dammit, I won so you're supposed to do what I said...

Realizing his parents are worthless, he turns to his little brother.

Brock: Jiro.. how was that? Rock-types can do anything, right?

Jiro nods in agreement. Someday, he wants to be a great trainer like him! What strong, full of stamina pokemon Onix is! So Brock takes pity on the boy; apparently only people with eyes can catch pokemon and that's why Mom has so many when the rest of the family have three between them, and turns to Onix. "Teach Jiro how to battle," he says. Jiro is wide-eyed (..considering). Brock also gives him geodude and crobat. "You'll need the help... our parents aren't doing much." True, Jiro nods.

Jiro: All right! I'm gonna be a great trainer like you! And you become the best breeder!

Scene change.
Cut to the outside of the gym; the inside back to normal, but the hedges and whatnot still there. Everyone's lined up outside, bidding goodbye to Brock, who is in his Houen gear.

Mom: We'll be lonely without you... you've got food? map? pokemon?

Brock: Of course. [He shows them Forretress.. which just doesn't sound like much of a word at all. Where the hell do they get these names from anyway?]

Jiro: Net time you're here, let's battle!

Brock: Sure. take care of Onix... [whispers] and Mom and Dad... they need it. [to everyone] I'll call from Houen!

He starts off, everyone waving behind him.

TAKESHI... your journey has just begun!
TO BE CONTINUED...



Thanks to EE970, she lives in Japan and she always brings us awesome spoilers and synopses.

[The Rusted One]

Don't you love it how people at Pokemopolis twist everything around so that it is no longer suitable for children? It's classic, I love it...could someone pm me the addy for pokemopolis...? I can't remember, I haven't been there in ages...but I love that site...please???

[HeWiE]

They don't twist it around, per se, they just interpret it differently. The pokeshippers interpret stuff differently too, you know. I think it's just a result of noticing how similar Pokemon's characters and themes are to the seedier side of real life.

[RedStarWarrior]

I thought that in the Japanese version she ran away. I wonder why she decided to come back....

Anyway, glad to get to know Brock a little bit more.

[Chris 2.1]

great synop. we delved into the problems of having a woman who married a rock trainer. Imagine Surge's wife...0_0;;

anyway, grrrrrr8! I liked this episode. why did Brock go to Houen, exactly?

[Brock_ag]

Thanks for the episode guide and thanks to you zak. It sounds really cool I can't wait to see this episode though I wish Brock brought crobat or onix with him too.

[Ashi-chan]

OMG...Takeshi-kun's parents are SICKENING! And, heck--how CAN ya have a water/rock gym if the water's gonna weaken the Rock Pokemon? Ugh, I can see why he's so sick of them. It's funny, though, how he reacts ta some of the stuff--snappin' the new Nibi Gym sign in two and everythin'. All my best hopes ta Jirou-kun! Ganbatte, Jirou-kun!

Aah! I love this episode even more now! Ugh, the torture of importin' anime overseas...>.<

[Melody]

On pokemon-ecyclopedia I`ve found a pic of brock`s mom^^

@HeWiE

Great synop. O.O

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Hiro]

Wow! She looks totaly different from everyone in the gym.

[Kasumi Chan]

o_O She really looks different from them. And her eyes are really different from the pokémon anime standar. :P

[The Rusted One]

She looks fairly pokemon-ish to me; not quite a member of Brock's family, perhaps, but pokemon anime-ish, yes.

[Mew2Too]

:LOFL: OMFG! I knew it! I knew it! It IS her! Everyone was right! It is Misty's mom! Holy s**t! I can't freakin' believe it! Look at 'em! It just gets freakin' weirder!

You know, I have an idea. It was said that Brock's mother married about 12 different men in order to get Brock the Gym. (This is according to Shudo-san's book.) Here's what I think. I'm going to do a little genealogy.

Let's say that, for starters, Mrs. Slate married Flint Slate. Meanwhile, over in Masara Taun, Senri teh Touka Gym Leader had just gotten married to Deliah Ketchum.

Back in Pewter City, Mrs. Slate divorced Flint and Flint ran. She married, amongst other men, Misty's father. (His actual wife had died. Let's just say that, and also say Misty was never actually told.)

Shortly thereafter, Deliah and Senri grew slowly apart. They divorced - and of course Deliah never said anything to Ash about this. Senri departed when Ash was about two or so. Brock was about four at the time. Misty would also be about two. Misty's father ran off and left Misty in the care of only her sisters and perhaps a Nanny. Why did he run? He and his new wife wanted to see the world. They stopped in Houen. That is where they divorced.

Mrs. Slate/Waterflower/Whatever met Senri, who was now an established GL. They married. They had a daughter named Haruka when Ash would have been four. They had a Son named Masato when Haruka was four, and Ash and Misty would have been eight. Brock would therefore be about ten, maybe. Perhaps he would have been eleven or twelve.

It lasted between Senri and Mrs. Flint's Ex-Wife for about two years after Masato's birth. Then, she ran again.

This is how things would stand then. Haruka and Ash would be half-sibblings. (By Ash's father.) Haruka and Brock would also be related in that way. So would Brock and Misty. However, since there is no true direct relation between Ash and Misty, PokeShipping would keep very safe. (Don't know about Gym or AdvanceShipping.)

Ash and Misty do not have the same mother or father, but Misty's mother and Ash's father married each other and had children. (Still not making any relation between the two. They are still well removed.) Ash does not share any blood with Brock, either. The only link there is that Ash's father did marry Brock's mother a long while after Senri and Deliah had Ash and then divorced. Misty shares no direct link with Ash either. Her only connection to Ash is the same is Brock's- and there is no blood shared between her and Ash. Haruka is the only one who is a real blood-relation to Ash Ketchum.

[Ratiosu]

You should know by now that anime girls all looks exactly the same except for the hairs and the clothes

[The Rusted One]

Originally posted by Mew2Too
:LOFL: OMFG! I knew it! I knew it! It IS her! Everyone was right! It is Misty's mom! Holy s**t! I can't freakin' believe it! Look at 'em! It just gets freakin' weirder!

You know, I have an idea. It was said that Brock's mother married about 12 different men in order to get Brock the Gym. (This is according to Shudo-san's book.) Here's what I think. I'm going to do a little genealogy.

Let's say that, for starters, Mrs. Slate married Flint Slate. Meanwhile, over in Masara Taun, Senri teh Touka Gym Leader had just gotten married to Deliah Ketchum.

Back in Pewter City, Mrs. Slate divorced Flint and Flint ran. She married, amongst other men, Misty's father. (His actual wife had died. Let's just say that, and also say Misty was never actually told.)

Shortly thereafter, Deliah and Senri grew slowly apart. They divorced - and of course Deliah never said anything to Ash about this. Senri departed when Ash was about two or so. Brock was about four at the time. Misty would also be about two. Misty's father ran off and left Misty in the care of only her sisters and perhaps a Nanny. Why did he run? He and his new wife wanted to see the world. They stopped in Houen. That is where they divorced.

Mrs. Slate/Waterflower/Whatever met Senri, who was now an established GL. They married. They had a daughter named Haruka when Ash would have been four. They had a Son named Masato when Haruka was four, and Ash and Misty would have been eight. Brock would therefore be about ten, maybe. Perhaps he would have been eleven or twelve.

It lasted between Senri and Mrs. Flint's Ex-Wife for about two years after Masato's birth. Then, she ran again.

This is how things would stand then. Haruka and Ash would be half-sibblings. (By Ash's father.) Haruka and Brock would also be related in that way. So would Brock and Misty. However, since there is no true direct relation between Ash and Misty, PokeShipping would keep very safe. (Don't know about Gym or AdvanceShipping.)

Ash and Misty do not have the same mother or father, but Misty's mother and Ash's father married each other and had children. (Still not making any relation between the two. They are still well removed.) Ash does not share any blood with Brock, either. The only link there is that Ash's father did marry Brock's mother a long while after Senri and Deliah had Ash and then divorced. Misty shares no direct link with Ash either. Her only connection to Ash is the same is Brock's- and there is no blood shared between her and Ash. Haruka is the only one who is a real blood-relation to Ash Ketchum.

Uh-huh. Or, you know, you could give us proof of what you say being true.

[Mew2Too]

Originally posted by The Rusted One
Uh-huh. Or, you know, you could give us proof of what you say being true.

The only proof that I can give you on Brock's mother divorcing and marrying twelve times is from Takeshi Shudo's book. I heard about that particular revelation on Eji's old "Brock-O-Rama." It may be mentioned on the Pokemon Encyclopedia website.

As to the Ash thing, I read part of the book someone put up on a website. Ash was about five and Deliah was talking to him about his father and how he traveled very far away to become a Pokemon Master.

[Kasumi Chan]

Nah... your theory sounds too complicated for pokémon, Mew2too. I can't see Brock's mom as Misty's mom, especially after seeing the pic Melody kindly showed us. Maybe she's a relative, like an aunt, but her mother... :no:

[Chris 2.1]

Mew2two: I think you have invented...Parentshippy! ^_^

[Mew2Too]

Originally posted by ShinyMarill
Mew2two: I think you have invented...Parentshippy! ^_^

Strange, huh? :lol:

Anyway, I forgot the two most important links. Shudo-san (or should I say the guy who laid out the plot for the Pokemon characters and a large chunk of the TV series in general) said that Misty was about two when her parents up and left. She had only her [half?] sisters and I'm guessing maybe one other caretaker. (A more adult caretaker.

Haruka's only known parent is Senri. Other than Senri, we don't know much about Haruka's parents. Her mother was not seen in the first episode. Until I see a mother, I am convinced that somehow all the mains - Ash, Brock, and Misty - all share Haruka as a half-sister. Weird, huh?

As to it not working - this is Pokemon, you say - that is true of the old, meatless Pokemon that we've known for the past three years. This is a "fresh start." Perhaps Kunihiko Yuyama finally just told the producers, "If the Americans don't like thicker plot, they can just cut and paste what they do like as they did in season 1."

With that in mind, maybe Kunihiko Yuyama has shed the beauracracy and is making Pokemon into a real anime. And, let's face it, I don't think 4Kids is gonna dump Pokemon just because it is a little more anime than Disney. (And even Disney, I see, is very much improving in that respect. Whoever would have expected to see the Goo Goo Dolls on a Disney ST? It used to be Britney Spears and Aaron Carter and all that teenie-bop pop yakety-yak.)

If they can get some more viewers for Pokemon at the expense of some minor editing, so be it. Pokemon has been the "retard anime" for the past three years, and frankly I'd think they'd be sick of it by now, anyway.

Besides, American kids are not as sheltered and stupid as Haigney and Grossfeld think. They know divorce, they know the facts of life a lot earlier on this days. They're not going to shock the American youth by revealing that babies aren't really carried to the Mommies by Pelippaa's in the sky or grow out of Bulbasaur seeds in the green pastures of lala land.

[Mew2Too]

Originally posted by Ratiosu
You should know by now that anime girls all looks exactly the same except for the hairs and the clothes

Oh, and I'm sorry, but I wanted to make a separate response specifically to that statement.

The statement in question is nothing but a bald-faced lie!

It was invent by anti-Misty spin doctors who wished to make the case that Haruka could not be in any way like or related to Misty. So, they tried to argue that all Pokemon females look precisely like Misty. That might be mildly true, but only because there really aren't too many radically different ways to draw young caucasian females.

Mewtwo: After all, all of you humans look alike anyway! :lol:

O_o So, anywho, it could also be said that all the male characters on Pokemon look suspiciously like someone used the Tracey Sketchit template or what have. No! That isn't true. There are characters that look purposely and undeniably alike. It is no coincidence that all the Nurse Joys and Officer Jennys look much alike. It is no coincidence that Brock, his father, and his brothers and sister look alike. It was a visual gag that Jesse and James' former bride-to-be, Jessebell, looked strikingly similiar. Usually, such visual puns are deliberate and are meant to convey family relation or universal similiarity. (Like if a character from another anime makes a cameo under the guise of a different character. Maybe that's only been done in my own fan fics, though I think I've seen it done on the anime before.)

Misty, Mizuho, and Haruka look too much alike to be a simple coincidence. Such a thing just can't be explained by a simple, "Oh, well, all the characters look exactly alike!" Yet, the enigma of the similarities between this trio is as mysterious as crop circles. The answer to either of the said mysteries doesn't seem to be too forth-coming.

[Venasaur89]

I am sorry... because this question should not be here , but melody was talking about Pokemon Encyclopedia. Can someone plez post the address of that pokemon encyclopedia????

Thanx

[Mew2Too]

Originally posted by Venasaur89
I am sorry... because this question should not be here , but melody was talking about Pokemon Encyclopedia. Can someone plez post the address of that pokemon encyclopedia????

Thanx

http://sekichiku.freehosting.net/

You'll find a ton of useful information there. This is where I got the most info on Takeshi Shudo's book.

[The Rusted One]

Originally posted by Mew2Too
Oh, and I'm sorry, but I wanted to make a separate response specifically to that statement.

The statement in question is nothing but a bald-faced lie!

It was invent by anti-Misty spin doctors who wished to make the case that Haruka could not be in any way like or related to Misty. So, they tried to argue that all Pokemon females look precisely like Misty. That might be mildly true, but only because there really aren't too many radically different ways to draw young caucasian females.

Mewtwo: After all, all of you humans look alike anyway! :lol:

O_o So, anywho, it could also be said that all the male characters on Pokemon look suspiciously like someone used the Tracey Sketchit template or what have. No! That isn't true. There are characters that look purposely and undeniably alike. It is no coincidence that all the Nurse Joys and Officer Jennys look much alike. It is no coincidence that Brock, his father, and his brothers and sister look alike. It was a visual gag that Jesse and James' former bride-to-be, Jessebell, looked strikingly similiar. Usually, such visual puns are deliberate and are meant to convey family relation or universal similiarity. (Like if a character from another anime makes a cameo under the guise of a different character. Maybe that's only been done in my own fan fics, though I think I've seen it done on the anime before.)

Misty, Mizuho, and Haruka look too much alike to be a simple coincidence. Such a thing just can't be explained by a simple, "Oh, well, all the characters look exactly alike!" Yet, the enigma of the similarities between this trio is as mysterious as crop circles. The answer to either of the said mysteries doesn't seem to be too forth-coming.

All I see you doing is grasping at straws. Wow, you've managed to say that similarities denote a family connection of one kind or another. But wait; Misty looks nothing like Mizuho; NOTHING like her. And well done, you said that adolescent females on pokemon look the same; that explains that similarity. And Mizuho and Haruka looking alike? Um, no.

Sorry, but just no.

[Mew2Too]

Originally posted by The Rusted One
All I see you doing is grasping at straws. Wow, you've managed to say that similarities denote a family connection of one kind or another. But wait; Misty looks nothing like Mizuho; NOTHING like her. And well done, you said that adolescent females on pokemon look the same; that explains that similarity. And Mizuho and Haruka looking alike? Um, no.

Sorry, but just no.

Okay, so I'm probably grasping at straws. They're good straws, anyway.

So, I'll admit, Mizuho looks closer to Nurse Joy. Yes, the eyes and hairstyle are patterned pretty much the same. On Misty and Haruka, the eyes are more rectangular and straight. The hair is more jagged. On Mizuho and Joy, the eyes are much wider. The hair is more bunnish and smooth.

However, it isn't the looks that so much nabs it. It is Mizuho's name. (I think it means "Of the water.") Also, it is her obvious preference for water Pokemon. So, they are all related. Some peeps claim that Mizuho is Misty's aunt. That would actually be easier in one way. Yet, it almost makes some sense to have Mizuho as Misty's mom, too. It sort of connects the characters even further.

As to Haruka, that would certainly make sense! That, in fact, makes a whole ton of sense. That would explain where Brock's mom has been all these years. It explains where Senri's wife is. It certainly explains where Haruka looks so similiar to Misty. (As, even if Misty and Mizuho are not related, they do look undeniably alike.)

As to Senri being Ash's father, too, I am starting to go back to thinking DiamondShipping was actually responsible for Ash. Everyone says, "Ash and Giovanni met already." In the Mewtwo special, Ash had his back turned away from Giovanni. Before he had the chance to get a look at Gio, Brock and Misty jumped in the way.

This certainly makes more sense than Lance being Ash's father. Ash and Lance have met before. So have Ash and Senri. You would think the father would know the face of their own son. Ash also remembers his father from a picture his mother showed him when he was young. (That is confirmed in Takeshi Shudo's companion book to the anime.) Nothing was mentioned from either side about being Ash's father.

However, Deliah's line in "Pokemon Live!" would seem to put an end to the idea that Giovanni was Ash's father. By the same token, Obi-Wan Kenobi told Luke Skywalker his father was "murdered" by Darth Vader. Little half-truths to cover for something that might be psychologically damaging to children. ("Ash, your father is the leader of a global syndicate dedicated to stealing and using Pokemon for evil and world domination! Isn't it great?! Huh? Why are you sticking your finger in that electrical socket? It wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that I told you that your father was virtually Satan incarnate, does it?")

So, whether or not Senri married Mizuho or not has nothing to do with Ash. I'm still convinced that Giovanni is Ash's father. (Perhaps with TR becoming good guys this season, that will be revealed.)

And, I still think that Misty and Mizuho are at least aunt and niece.

[The Rusted One]

Originally posted by Mew2Too
Okay, so I'm probably grasping at straws. They're good straws, anyway.

Um, no. Straws are straws - and no matter what you say, if there is such a thing as "good straws", these ones aren't those.


So, I'll admit, Mizuho looks closer to Nurse Joy. Yes, the eyes and hairstyle are patterned pretty much the same. On Misty and Haruka, the eyes are more rectangular and straight. The hair is more jagged. On Mizuho and Joy, the eyes are much wider. The hair is more bunnish and smooth.

Um, so now you're trying to make a connection between Mizuho and Nurse Joy? Uh-huh. Nobody before this point mentioned Joy; it seems as if you might be trying to add weight to your theory by making it more "complex".


However, it isn't the looks that so much nabs it. It is Mizuho's name. (I think it means "Of the water.") Also, it is her obvious preference for water Pokemon. So, they are all related. Some peeps claim that Mizuho is Misty's aunt. That would actually be easier in one way. Yet, it almost makes some sense to have Mizuho as Misty's mom, too. It sort of connects the characters even further.

Uh-huh. Wow, they both like water types. Big deal, so did Marina in the Orange Islands. She must be related too! *gasp* Mizuho's name shows her connection with WATER, not Misty. Her like of water pokemon also shows, well, her like of water pokemon, and is more of a contrast between Brock/Flint and herself. It is NOT some plot device to somehow link every single major character in the anime.


As to Haruka, that would certainly make sense! That, in fact, makes a whole ton of sense. That would explain where Brock's mom has been all these years. It explains where Senri's wife is. It certainly explains where Haruka looks so similiar to Misty. (As, even if Misty and Mizuho are not related, they do look undeniably alike.)

Straws straws straws. Wow, Brock's mum wasn't at home. Does she say anything, when she returns, about where she was? No. You'd think she would. "Mum! Where have you been all these years?!?" "Oh, nowhere, dear." Yeah right. Senri's wife? Um, how often do you see Senri? Not that much, maybe three or four times. Okay, so he's only there that often because he's a Gym Leader. Senri's wife isn't. So, what importance is she going to have? Hmmm, zero, perhaps? Besides, does Haruka or Senri ever say that she isn't there? Might be time to actually research your theories before posting them.
You also keep contradicting yourself. You say, "Misty and Haruka look so alike because there isn't a lot of variation you can put into the basic adolescent female face in the anime." AND THEN you try to explain why they look so much alike through some wild theory on a family connection! Which one are you going to go with?


As to Senri being Ash's father, too, I am starting to go back to thinking DiamondShipping was actually responsible for Ash. Everyone says, "Ash and Giovanni met already." In the Mewtwo special, Ash had his back turned away from Giovanni. Before he had the chance to get a look at Gio, Brock and Misty jumped in the way.

You must be lacking in brain cells. You do know that this is POKEMON here, not some Days of our lives episode, don't you? Wow, they didn't see each other properly, if you listen to what you say about it. Just because they don't see each other doesn't mean they're automatically related. I mean, I've never seen the ruler of Italy. I MUST be related! Woohoo, I'm related to the governing power of Italy! Could you get any less logical? I think not.


This certainly makes more sense than Lance being Ash's father. Ash and Lance have met before. So have Ash and Senri. You would think the father would know the face of their own son. Ash also remembers his father from a picture his mother showed him when he was young. (That is confirmed in Takeshi Shudo's companion book to the anime.) Nothing was mentioned from either side about being Ash's father.

Uh-huh. The whole Lance-Ash connection is equally baseless. And the Senri-Ash one, too. You must not read what you write; you manage to contradict almost every statement you make in the very next paragraph. Uh-huh, so they aren't Ash's father. Well done.
Now Ash also remembers his father? Okay, so what does that say? If he remembered him, then even a glancing look at Giovanni would make him think, "he looks like my dad". But does he? No.
So, nothing is mentioned about Senri or Lance being Ash's father. Um, when was anything ever mentioned about Giovanni being his father instead? Oh, that's right, in your head. Must make it real then.


However, Deliah's line in "Pokemon Live!" would seem to put an end to the idea that Giovanni was Ash's father. By the same token, Obi-Wan Kenobi told Luke Skywalker his father was "murdered" by Darth Vader. Little half-truths to cover for something that might be psychologically damaging to children. ("Ash, your father is the leader of a global syndicate dedicated to stealing and using Pokemon for evil and world domination! Isn't it great?! Huh? Why are you sticking your finger in that electrical socket? It wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that I told you that your father was virtually Satan incarnate, does it?")

Well done, you've managed to show that if this was to happen, it would be a blatant copy of Star Wars. Besides, since when was "Pokemon Live!" a direct reflection of what is going on in the anime? Um, hmmm, maybe it's not. Besides that, this is a CHILDREN'S show we're talking about - massive plot twists in them are going to be lost on the audience. They'll all be like, "Mum, I don't get it. I'm confused."


So, whether or not Senri married Mizuho or not has nothing to do with Ash. I'm still convinced that Giovanni is Ash's father. (Perhaps with TR becoming good guys this season, that will be revealed.)

Okay, so you've just spent your time proclaiming that Senri and Mizuho resulted in Haruka after having Misty with someone else, and then Mizuho went back to her already large family of ten children back in Pewter City...for nothing. Well done.
You can remain convinced, but it would be like remaining convinced that aliens run the world. Evidence? Um, no. Proof indicating it to be false? An overwhelming abundance of it. But still, you MUST be right. I mean, with all this evidence against your point and none for it, how could you be wrong?


And, I still think that Misty and Mizuho are at least aunt and niece.

Uh-huh. Evidence would be great; and I don't mean things you think up. Evidence = proof from the anime. Not some little story you'd desparately like to believe.

[Mew2Too]

The Rusted One, forget it! Trying to argue with you would seem to be like a arguing with the wall opposite my PC. Never mind.

I'm just waiting for word on the Misty special. I want to know how it ended. What happened to Misty in the end.

I also found something else out. I have been saying all along I know for sure that Haruka isn't a Misty clone. That might not exactly be true. Come to find out, she reacted in the exact same way to the bike as Misty did. She reacted with the same type of compassion in the exact same manner that Misty did. On top of that, I had led myself to belief that there were some trivial differences in the faces of Misty and Haruka. The eyes might have been a lighter shade, or some such. That is horse-s**t. They are facially identical. WTF does this mean? I don't know, but I do know the artists went to no trouble in even making the characters look minorly different, let alone like two different people. I'll excuse the whole Mzuho thing, but to say Haruka and Misty's blatant similiarities is just laziness from the artists to come up with a different style of drawing is foolishness.

[Damian Silverblade]

No, M2Too. The brick wall here is YOU.

The guy who invent harebrained theories and defend them against wind and tide despite complete lack of evidence at best and lots of evidence against it at worst.

Misty and Haruka have the same basic kind of face. So does a lot of other young female characters in various animes. It doesn't show laziness or a link between the characters, it shows a STANDARD in anime. But yes, I know, according to you that's an "argument invented by people who don't want to admit they have the same face".

Except it'S not. There's such a thing as anime-style, and that's how the face of a relatively young girl is drawn in anime-style. There may be some variation, but the basic frame for face just don't show that much change.

It's not laziness on the part of the animator, true. But it's not a link between the two characters as you constantly insist, it's just the way they create faces for young girls in anime.

But given how much of a brick wall you are about this, you probably will repeat that this is just an invention of ours.

[Pokemon Neo]

Originally posted by The Rusted One

You must be lacking in brain cells. You do know that this is POKEMON here, not some Days of our lives episode, don't you? Wow, they didn't see each other properly, if you listen to what you say about it. Just because they don't see each other doesn't mean they're automatically related. I mean, I've never seen the ruler of Italy. I MUST be related! Woohoo, I'm related to the governing power of Italy! Could you get any less logical? I think not.




I think the point of his post was to prove that "Mewtwo Returns" should not be used as an argument against Giovanni being Ash's father.But it also shouldn't be used to support it either.What it does prove is that there is going to be some sort of confrontation between the two.Really,after 270+ episodes,5 movies,and 1 special can you really blame anyone if they act a little suspicious.And I think that's what intrigues people who believe that Gio as Ash's daddy.What is it between these two?They're always close but yet so far.When the time comes for these two to meet face to face will it be your standard Hero vs. Villain clash?Or could it be some sort of revelation?Could it be both?Who knows?So it's perfectly fine if someone supports the Giovanni/Ash connection.

[Mew2Too]

Alright, let the brick wall just level here.

Yes, every single freakin' girl on Pokemon looks just about the same! They all share just about every characterstic up to a point with Misty. That is where the insidious little differences begin. Maybe they use a different pair of eyes. The nose might be a little different. The eyebrows will be kinda thick instead of razor thin like Misty and Haruka's. The hair is the biggest thing, and mor often than not female characters are given different style and bangs than Misty.

In this case, if you took a picture of Haruka and cropped it from the neck up to the bangs- leaving out the rest of the hair- you couldn't tell whether it was Haruka or Misty. (And I mean an actual screenshot pic from an episode. All the characters look different in those promo posters.) You couldn't say the same of Nurse Joy, Officer Jenny, Professor Ivy, or any of the rest. Why? Because the faces are just different enough that you could tell them appart.

Haruka and Misty, on the other hand... Well, that's my proof! Either the writers were lazy, or they had something in mind for the unwavering similarities. Look at the artwork- the face hasn't changed a damn bit! No bushier eyebrows, no lipstick on the mouth, no change in eyeshape or color, the angles of the face are precisely the same, the noses have the exact same dimensions, and that lone outcrop of hair that serves as the bangs on both Haruka and Misty are interchangeable sans the color. In fact, half the time, the demeanors are exactly the same. The voices are so close, you'd have no idea who you were listening to unless you were told. Am I a brick wall, or do I just know more about Haruka and Misty than everyone else?

EDIT: Oops! cross-post! Otherwise, I would have replied to this one.


Originally posted by Pokemon Neo
I think the point of his post was to prove that "Mewtwo Returns" should not be used as an argument against Giovanni being Ash's father.But it also shouldn't be used to support it either.What it does prove is that there is going to be some sort of confrontation between the two.Really,after 270+ episodes,5 movies,and 1 special can you really blame anyone if they act a little suspicious.And I think that's what intrigues people who believe that Gio as Ash's daddy.What is it between these two?They're always close but yet so far.When the time comes for these two meet face to face will it be your standard Hero vs. Villain clash?Or could it be some sort of revelation?Could it be both?Who knows?So it's perfectly fine if someone supports the Giovanni/Ash connection.

Exactly. In fact, I feel the same way about the Haruka thing. How can we not speculate. We thought after 276, all our questions about this mysterious girl would be answered in a fell swoop. The truth is, not enough is known about her character to establish anything about her for certain. All we know is that she, for the most part, looks and acts just like Misty would. What does that tell me? I know what I'd like it to tell me, but until I hear more about Haruka and/or the Misty special, I could only speculate until I was blue in the face. I have no evidence of anything yet.

As to the Giovanni thing- sorry for rantin' about Haruka- it is the only theory we have that makes sense and hasn't utterly been torn to pieces. All we have against it is the word of two producers that probably couldn't even understand half of what the Japanese were telling them. So, they wrote a play that was probably based entirely around misunderstandings and assumptions. The Mewtwo special certainly doesn't count. Ash never saw Giovanni. Mewtwo weighs what - 265 pounds? Ash never swiveled around and got a good look at Giovanni. Hell, he didn't even manage a glance! The only two who saw Giovanni from Ash-tachi in that episode were Brock and Misty. For that matter, that was all Giovanni saw of Ash-tachi. They have always come so close to meeting. There was the Gym, the many time that J&J could've brought Pikachu back to the Boss and Ash could have followed right after, and that little encounter in Paradise Canyon. Yet, they never actually see each other! Ash fought J&J at the Gym because Giovanni had to take Mewtwo on a power expedition, J&J have never gotten Pikachu to the Boss, nor have they ever left a trail to him. Ash turned away at just the right moment and never looked back!

[The Rusted One]

Actually, if you care to examine Haruka's face, you will see slight (and yes, I mean slight) differences; take for instance, her eyes. They are NOT the same colour as Misty's - Haruka's are blue-green, and rather dark, while Misty's a green. Now, while you might say that this isn't enough to disprove them being exactly the same, I will draw your attention to Marina (from the Raikou special). HER face is the same shape as Misty's, the only difference being that her eyes are blue, or purple (I can't remember which). That ALSO isn't much of a difference; and so, if I was to follow your logic, M2T, I would have to proclaim Marina as a relative of Misty also.

Now, I'm not sure which thread is better, but it seems to me that both of us are writing the same things in both this thread and the thread entitled "Is Giovanni Ash's father...?" or whatever that thread is called. So, I propose keeping this debate in one thread - while you don't have to agree, I will try to keep my argument on the issue in one of them. However, if I see that you have gone into another thread and started to write the same things you have said in this debate, I will respond to those writings of yours in the thread I see them; and you can do the same for my posts, if you find I have posted my argument on this matter elsewhere.
It's only an idea, and you don't have to agree, in which case I will also not restrict myself to one thread; I just see writing the same stuff in two or more threads is rather pointless.

[Mew2Too]

Originally posted by The Rusted One
Actually, if you care to examine Haruka's face, you will see slight (and yes, I mean slight) differences; take for instance, her eyes. They are NOT the same colour as Misty's - Haruka's are blue-green, and rather dark, while Misty's a green. Now, while you might say that this isn't enough to disprove them being exactly the same, I will draw your attention to Marina (from the Raikou special). HER face is the same shape as Misty's, the only difference being that her eyes are blue, or purple (I can't remember which). That ALSO isn't much of a difference; and so, if I was to follow your logic, M2T, I would have to proclaim Marina as a relative of Misty also.

Now, I'm not sure which thread is better, but it seems to me that both of us are writing the same things in both this thread and the thread entitled "Is Giovanni Ash's father...?" or whatever that thread is called. So, I propose keeping this debate in one thread - while you don't have to agree, I will try to keep my argument on the issue in one of them. However, if I see that you have gone into another thread and started to write the same things you have said in this debate, I will respond to those writings of yours in the thread I see them; and you can do the same for my posts, if you find I have posted my argument on this matter elsewhere.
It's only an idea, and you don't have to agree, in which case I will also not restrict myself to one thread; I just see writing the same stuff in two or more threads is rather pointless.

Hm, I only brought the Giovanni argument to bear because someone else brought it up.

As to Misty looking like Marina, that isn't true at all. The bangs on Marina were different. Her eyes were of mildly different shape. I think her nose may have been drawn differently. I believe her eyebrows were thicker, as well. Her hair did not follow any pattern that was even close to Misty's- bangs or otherwise.

As to Haruka, you are looking at promo pictures. I said specifically that the promo pictures were not good representations of Haruka as she appears on the actual animation. Go to the thread called, "Screenshots! LOOKY! LOOKY!" There is a link there to a site that has actual screenshots and real captured close-ups of Haruka's face. Her eyes look as light as Misty's do in the screenshots.

[The Rusted One]

Originally posted by Mew2Too
Hm, I only brought the Giovanni argument to bear because someone else brought it up.

As to Misty looking like Marina, that isn't true at all. The bangs on Marina were different. Her eyes were of mildly different shape. I think her nose may have been drawn differently. I believe her eyebrows were thicker, as well. Her hair did not follow any pattern that was even close to Misty's- bangs or otherwise.

Mmm, no. Bangs - big deal, misty and Haruka have bangs. That isn't enough for some kind of connection. A lack of bangs is the same; people don't have hair styles that fit in with a general family theme, as you seem to be suggesting - people have their hair the way they want to. Wow, bangs; they might just be a popular hairstyle. And those barely count as bangs anyway; James has more pronounced bangs - hey, I've just realised, he MUST be related to Misty and Haruka too!
The "fact" that Marina's eyes, in your opinion, look different proves nothing - if Misty and Haruka are related, then so is Marina. Look at Misty's actual sisters - what colour are their eyes? Different from Misty's? I dare say that that, according to your theory, means that they can't be related! Misty must be adopted! And she's really Brock's sister! Oh, I see how you arrived at that far-fetched conclusion! Mmmmnot.
Her nose was drawn differently? Pray tell, I'd like to know how many ways a small triangular shadow can be drawn in one anime. Sure, you do get nose variation in pokemon, but the small triangular shadow-nose is the stock nose, it doesn't change.
Her eyebrows were...thicker? What, they drew an extra line in pencil? No. Nice try, but once again, none of this stands up to scrutiny.


As to Haruka, you are looking at promo pictures. I said specifically that the promo pictures were not good representations of Haruka as she appears on the actual animation. Go to the thread called, "Screenshots! LOOKY! LOOKY!" There is a link there to a site that has actual screenshots and real captured close-ups of Haruka's face. Her eyes look as light as Misty's do in the screenshots.

Well, if you must know, those screenshots were what I was basing my statements off anyway. Haruka's eyes in them are far from being as light as Misty's; I don't know if your vision is somehow impaired, but THAT dark blue-green colour is NOT the same as Misty's light green. Sorry, but you fail to argue your point successfully.

[Murgatroyd]

Regarding eye color, this is all I have to say until I can find a better source for a shot of Misty's:

http://homepage.mac.com/murgatroyd314/h-m-eyes.jpg

[The Rusted One]

Originally posted by Murgatroyd
Regarding eye color, this is all I have to say until I can find a better source for a shot of Misty's:

http://homepage.mac.com/murgatroyd314/h-m-eyes.jpg

hey, would you look at that? Different colours - and Misty's eyes are a different shape. Aside from that, I see different skin colouors too.

[Mew2Too]

Originally posted by The Rusted One
hey, would you look at that? Different colours - and Misty's eyes are a different shape. Aside from that, I see different skin colouors too.

Is that so, or it just that Murgy chose a picture with Misty that had very different lighting from the one of Haruka. The one of Haruka is from the episode screenshot where she was standing in front of Oodamaki's lab during daytime deciding whether or not to kill Ash for destroying her bike.

The shot of Misty was from a dusk scne where Misty was saying goodbye to Ash. You must need glasses- I know I have them- because if you ignore the poor lighting, you can clearly trace out the shape of Misty's eyes. They are identical, aside from the fact that Murgy made one shorter than the other. (Neither one is fit to the scale of the other, you know. Hence the white space. They look like they are different sizes, but the shape and architecture is definitely the same.)

The dusk masks the eye color, as well. If both of these were day shots, I doubt you'd be saying that the eye colors are different. Misty's yellowish skintone is due to the time of day, as well. It is not usually that yellow. Otherwise, I'd be worried Misty had liver disease.

And they don't just both have pronounce bangs, they are both the same pronounced bangs. Aside from color, they are interchangable.

[The Rusted One]

Originally posted by Mew2Too
Is that so, or it just that Murgy chose a picture with Misty that had very different lighting from the one of Haruka. The one of Haruka is from the episode screenshot where she was standing in front of Oodamaki's lab during daytime deciding whether or not to kill Ash for destroying her bike.

The shot of Misty was from a dusk scne where Misty was saying goodbye to Ash. You must need glasses- I know I have them- because if you ignore the poor lighting, you can clearly trace out the shape of Misty's eyes. They are identical, aside from the fact that Murgy made one shorter than the other. (Neither one is fit to the scale of the other, you know. Hence the white space. They look like they are different sizes, but the shape and architecture is definitely the same.)

The dusk masks the eye color, as well. If both of these were day shots, I doubt you'd be saying that the eye colors are different. Misty's yellowish skintone is due to the time of day, as well. It is not usually that yellow. Otherwise, I'd be worried Misty had liver disease.

And they don't just both have pronounce bangs, they are both the same pronounced bangs. Aside from color, they are interchangable.

Any excuse to "prove" your point. What you're saying is that, compared with the effects of little light at dusk, daytime will make a person's eyes...darker? Uh-huh. And the middle of the night, I suppose, is when the sun is highest in the sky.
And yes, I CAN see the outline of Misty's eye; but your "different lengths" excuse is a bity of a stretch. If you haven't noticed, these two pictures illustrate that Haruka's iris is wider and rounder than Misty's; EVEN if you take into acount the fact that Misty's eye is wide open, it still wouldn't explain that.
"The dusk masks eye colour"? Um, so, you're saying that my memory is so bad that I cannot remember that Misty's eyes are green? Hmm, well, I do remember, and Haruka's eyes, in full and natural daylight, are NOT green. In fact, based on this picture, I would be willing to retract my previous statement that Haruka's eyes were blue-green, and just say blue.
And, if you truly believe that Misty's bangs are the same as Haruka's, you are mistaken. Haruka's are more rounded than Misty's, whose are rather sharp and spikey; also, if you have conveniently forgotten, Misty has hers pointing out in a variety of directions; Haruka's are more of a fringe, and hang down in front of her face. Nice to see that you just neglected to mention that.

[Ashi-chan]

Ha.

Funny how a topic discussing the Takeshi special episode "subtly" changes into one focusing on Kasumi.

Hmmm....

[The Rusted One]

Shhhhhhhhhhhh, you.

But yeah, it was logical extension of a few select points mentioned in the process of discussing this topic as a whole.

[Mew2Too]

Originally posted by The Rusted One
Any excuse to "prove" your point. What you're saying is that, compared with the effects of little light at dusk, daytime will make a person's eyes...darker?

There are some people you wouldn't convince if you sent the Three Ghosts of Christmas to give them a personal tour of Misty and Haruka's eyeballs. :shrugs:

Obvioulsy, it wouldn't make the eyes darker. But, look againg, Misty's eyes are darker in that shot than Haruka's. (Other than the bottom of the iris, which is reflecting greenish with the yellow light of dusk combined with the blue color of Misty's eyes.)

[The Rusted One]

Originally posted by Mew2Too
There are some people you wouldn't convince if you sent the Three Ghosts of Christmas to give them a personal tour of Misty and Haruka's eyeballs. :shrugs:

Obvioulsy, it wouldn't make the eyes darker. But, look againg, Misty's eyes are darker in that shot than Haruka's. (Other than the bottom of the iris, which is reflecting greenish with the yellow light of dusk combined with the blue color of Misty's eyes.)

Thing is, Misty's eyes, if you look, always have the are of green at the bottom; and it is quite visible because her eyes are a lighter colour - I haven't been able to detect any such strong differentiation in the colours of Haruka's eyes - sure, in Pokemon there is ALWAYS differentiation, BUT it is very subtle in Haruka and makes her eyes look very much a dark blue green, darker than Misty's. Now, unless Haruka OR Misty is wearing contacts, they aren't the same colour eye. Sure, the two look similar, but that hardly constitutes wild claims that one is the other.