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Metallixs Girl
3rd February 2006, 04:09 PM
For those of us who play Xenosaga, we are familiar with the Miltian Charter that gives human rights to Realians and the conflict between Shion and some people who hate Realians.

For those of us that don't play Xenosaga, Realians are machines who look and act just like people, with emotions and everything. Puppets. (KOS-MOS is the real weapon and has to keep riminding Shion that she's not human, Realians are more like artificial humans.)

Now what I'm wondering is, if something like them exists someday, should they be considered human? I'm not sure, really, I mean I like MOMO and the others, and they should have protection and stuff, but it just sounds bizarre, and the bottom line is, they aren't humans. I'm thinking about Shion's conversation with Virgil and he made really good points about the weapons-grade Realians (military soldiers) being created to fight. Shion was trying to stop them, during a Gnosis attack. I just dunno how that would work in real life with androids. I'd be for giving them rights but calling the rights "human rights" just seems awkward... what do you guys think?

I used XS because it's a great example but this didn't seem to fit in VG...

Silver_Persian
3rd February 2006, 07:01 PM
Lets all watch Blade Runner before we have this discussion.

Magmar
4th February 2006, 01:01 AM
Lets all watch Blade Runner before we have this discussion.


Try posting more than 12 times before you diss an honest question.

Anyways, I really think that if it has free will, it's human. If something truly has its own will and can draw concrete conclusions by learning and perceiving facts about its surroundings, things it was never programmed to do, and has flesh, skin, organs and everythign else, and has the ability to reproduce baby copies of itself which grow and mature to be adults, then it's probably human.

Lady Vulpix
5th February 2006, 08:00 AM
Well, I think it would be stretching the word "human" a lot, but that's a semantic discussion which I don't think was the aim of this thread. I think they should have the same right, if they existed.

Silver_Persian
5th February 2006, 06:10 PM
1) post count =/= intelligence
2) I wasnt dissing the question
3) Blade Runner is essentially a discussion on the topic and is relevant.

mr_pikachu
6th February 2006, 12:22 AM
Well, I don't know the entire context, as I haven't played Xenosaga myself (though I have a friend who is obsessed with it). However, the debate kind of reminds me of the nearly infinite number of sci-fi stories about clones in the future. Many of those stories have the clones possessing next to zero rights and being horribly oppressed because of it, almost like a futuristic slavery in some sense. To an extent, I agree with Gabi about the idea of "free will"... however, then you can get into a debate on the definition of free will. (And no, this actually has nothing to do with religion.) I'd delve into that more, but that would likely take a very long post, and I'm kinda tired at the moment. Maybe I'll do that later.

.hacker
8th February 2006, 12:00 AM
It's been a while since I've played the game, but I remember some things. Depending on the type of realian created, the amount of "free will" can be limited. For example, some realians (like MOMO, whose a really advanced realian) has the ability to express, think, or feel any emotion or thought like a normal human can.

However, some realians, like solders, are limited in the amount of free will that can be exercised. For example, a realian will fight in a battle knowing they'll die but won't respond with concern or fear like a real human would normally.

My honest opinion is that as hard as they try to be human, they are not human. They're like machines that require constant maintance with the help of human technicians, and are built by people. They can be programmed to the extent of emotions or thinking ability that they can exercise. Therefore, I don't see them as human, which would equate that they don't have the same rights as humans do. But, this is my opinion only. I don't claim to be a philosopher.

mr_pikachu
8th February 2006, 03:20 AM
Okay, here's a good question. Does having emotions and thought patterns programmed into your psyche mean that you don't really feel those emotions? Or does it work similarly to the way it works with us, where our minds are "programmed" from birth and are constantly reprogrammed through the experiences of our lives?

Which one is correct? Answer that, and I think you've answered the question of this thread.

.hacker
8th February 2006, 08:08 AM
Okay, here's a good question. Does having emotions and thought patterns programmed into your psyche mean that you don't really feel those emotions? Or does it work similarly to the way it works with us, where our minds are "programmed" from birth and are constantly reprogrammed through the experiences of our lives?



As I said earlier, the amount of learning and emotions that a realian could "express" was limited depending on the person who programmed the unit. People are not "programmed" to be limited on their thinking or thoughts. People who can't do that often choose to not show emotions or some people can't think because of natural handicaps, which are exceptions.

Another problem is that realians are not genetically identical to people. The chemical and genetic structure between realians and humans are different. Here's a small spoiler from the game. If a human consumed the flesh from a realian, the person would experience physical and psychological changes. People would develop really large cornices or skin mutations on their body, and they would psychologically have an addiction toward relian flesh.

The main argument is this. Realians were built, not created, by humans. Just because something that imitates being a person doesn't make it human.

Razola
9th February 2006, 02:52 AM
1) Realian is a painfully idiotic name.

2) Would you give this human rights?
http://lp.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/c3po.jpg

Crazy
9th February 2006, 07:05 AM
Point taken.....Anyway, in all seriousness, I really don't know. Now if they actually felt emotions and thought like a human, then I guess you'd have to give them some rights. Not human rights, but something else.

Metallixs Girl
9th February 2006, 03:32 PM
I agree with that, Crazy, sentient rights at the very least.

I like the name Realian, what's wrong with it? (At first I thought it was pronounced "Real-ian" before they spoke the word in the game. It's "Ree-al-ee-an" like reality)