Illegal Immigrants, Tolerable or not?

[kalad1]

As the news is showing of late, with the recent bill, lots of people of hispanic descent are protesting it, due to the issues surrounding Illegal Immigrants. This topic is for discussing and expressing opinions on this subject.

Personally, I feel that ALL illegal immigrants, no matter what race, color, or creed, should and MUST be deported. They're criminals like everyone else, and they should be punished for breaking the law.

Once you've done that, I feel that the government should permanently assign a good chunk of the military to the border, with orders to shoot anyone trying to cross illegally, and I mean enough troops to make sure a single MOUSE couldn't cross illegally.

Please, share your opinion and discuss this subject, no flame wars please.

[Dark Dragonite]

I think a comedian already did this bit, but we should replace all the water between Mexico and the US with gasoline, and let them get about half way accross before we start the flames, lol...
I think they should be deported, it is illegal...or, if we make them citizens, they can't screw us over, they have to live legally, work for minimum wage, and pay taxes...

[Arnen]

I don't think we should even let them become citizens. If they can't even do the proper paperwork or whatever it takes to get over here, they shouldn't be allowed to come here at all. ._.

[.hacker]

What bugs the hell out of me is that many illegals are getting benefits that they don't even deserve (like free college tuition)! :mad:

If they're not willing to become U.S. citizens, then leave the US immediately! :cool:

[Magmar]

Wait, they get FREE college tuition? *kills*

[Craig]

Around here (Toronto, Canada) they recently targeted a large group of Portugese illegals and many were deported. Insert sob story in the newspapers.

I'm also one of the people that believes they should get the fuck out. I am also heavily against just throwing refugees into normal culture, too. No illegal immigrant will ever have sympathy from me... :/

[Roy Karrde]

This is a very tough subject to approach; there isn’t a true right thing to do, or a true wrong thing to do. As nice as it is to say that we should just ship them all back, that would still hurt us, just as much as it would hurt them. Or maybe even worse. Yes they are a drain on society, yes they ship off all of their money to Mexico, but they do provide a service, a service which price would drastically increase if the work were taken away. The home market would crash, and the price for fruits and vegetables would sky rocket.

That being said, look at this from the political stand point. That being Mexico would not want them back and would fight tooth and nail to keep them from coming back. This is the country that hands out maps to show where the safe spots are when crossing the boarder, the country that seals up it’s own southern border as much as possible to keep immigrants out. Yet does it’s best to ship them off to the United States when ever possible. They don’t want them in their country, and they will find any and all ways to keep us from shipping them back.

Now the real problem here isn’t the immigrants that are already here, unless their inability to grasp the language is what everybody is mad about. The problem here is the border, we need to seal it up as fast as possible. I don’t care if it is placing more troops down there, placing more minutemen down there, or placing piranhas into the Rio Grande. Last year one of the news stations did a trick in which they found that they could safely get a sizable amount of nuclear material into this country, by using several easy items to hide it. The border security here is lacking, and lacking horribly. If we were to have a nuke go off in one of our cities, I bet you anything that the material for it did not come through our ports, it did not come through Canada, it came through somewhere between the Mexico and United States border.

And not just that, it’s easy for terrorists to get through, guns, drugs and gangs. Fighting between drug gangs near the United States border has spread into South Texas, and it is only getting worse. And just as important, criminals that know they will be charged for crimes in Mexico, will flee to the United States, to escape. Mexico won’t go after them because it is just one less person around. We need to tighten up security or close the borders.

Finally to end this long rant, I would like to say that we should ship back any illegal that commits a felony above something simple. And for the criminals that commit horrible crimes, that Mexico should stay out of it. Just last year a Dallas cop was shot and killed by an illegal immigrant. Mexico has now tried to step in to try and prevent Texas from giving the man the death penalty for the crime he committed upon U.S. soil. The Mexican government didn’t give a damn about this man, until he killed some one. Apparently to them they don’t care about you, but if you commit a crime they have your back over here. That needs to stop, and it needs to stop today. Either Mexico starts doing something to prevent illegal immigration from their side of the U.S. border, or they cannot complain when we start handing down appropriate penalties when THEIR citizens start breaking OUR laws.

[homeofmew]

illegal immigrants are illegal, and are not citizens.
Citizens should get jobs before illegals do.

[Gengachu]

What is wrong with you guys? I'm not entirely aware of what makes a person legal or illegal, but it likes someone said, they still get the job, and a lot of times they work harder at it than an American would. The bottom line is though that if we're supposed to be "the land of the free" that shouldn't just apply to people who live in the US. We should welcome these people with arms wide open. They're obviously in a pretty desperate situation if they need to come here to make a living, and I think we should try to help them out.

Really the only thing that bothers me is when they can't speak any English. I think you should be fluent in a country's language before living there. Other than that I'm A-OK with them. Some of my best friends in the past have been Hispanic, and the girl I love is half-Mexican. I think they're generally great people, with some exceptions of course.

[Roy Karrde]

The problem is our day of welcoming illegal immigrants with open arms, is over. We used to do it for people of English decent along with any other European nationality, yet we also did that while the country was in need of people to do jobs. Now yes most of the people that come over are nice people and great people. Yet there is just two problems with it, one they do not integrate well, they instead expect us to accomedate them, instead of it being the other way around. And two, even though most are nice, a hell of a lot are not. And most of the people that are not, are extremely dangerous. How many people do you think there will be out there for illegal immigration after a bomb goes off in Dallas, or New York, or LA, and we find out the materials came across the border? We can still take in the needy and the poor, and be the dumping ground for Mexico, yet lets do this in the proper fashion. If not it will cost us, and it will cost us big time.

[Jeff]

They are comming here illeagally which makes them criminals, also they are taking American jobs and sending the money from those jobs back to their country instead of that money being spent here and thus going back into the US economy. If they want to come work in the US, that's fine, as long as they do it leagally. At my work, there are plenty of people who go through the embassy to work here temporarily, and that's the right way to do it, not sneaking across the border.

[Magmar]

*peeks back in*

I'm going to research border patrol from Mexican materials and see what they have to say. (I'm a Spanish major, so it's good practice!)

[Hatake Kakashi]

What is wrong with you guys? I'm not entirely aware of what makes a person legal or illegal, but it likes someone said, they still get the job, and a lot of times they work harder at it than an American would. The bottom line is though that if we're supposed to be "the land of the free" that shouldn't just apply to people who live in the US. We should welcome these people with arms wide open. They're obviously in a pretty desperate situation if they need to come here to make a living, and I think we should try to help them out.

Really the only thing that bothers me is when they can't speak any English. I think you should be fluent in a country's language before living there. Other than that I'm A-OK with them. Some of my best friends in the past have been Hispanic, and the girl I love is half-Mexican. I think they're generally great people, with some exceptions of course.


Came through the border, are OK'd and given a green card/place to get a green card and they pass the citizenship test: Legal.
Swam, jumped a fence, ducked inside a truck, payed off a guard: Illegal.


It's not a difficult concept.

[Dark Dragonite]

Exactly Hatake, and they don't pay taxes, take advantage of our welfare system, molest kids, rape women(I know, citizens do that too, but they can be caught, these illegals aren't in any system, noone knows where they live but their group), and take jobs at below minimum wage, which hurts now unemployed citizens cause they can only legally work at minimum wage...need any more reasons?

[Blademaster]

You know, it's funny...

Where I live, I never heard complaints that the Mexicans were 'taking our jobs' when all they did was buff floors, scrub toilets, run the little corner market with all the half-decent fruits and vegetables (Why is that banana orange...? Oh, sorry, it's a carrot. My error.), and scrape asbestos out of the ceiling. But now...

...

What? That's funny! Come on!

I mean, it's not like Pedro is the president of Wal-Mart! The Mexicans are just trying to make a living somewhere else - Hell, I'd think people would be flattered that so many people are sneaking into this country! That's what they tell you! They're saying 'Your place is great! Can I crash here for awhile?'

You know, why do you wanna live in the 4-room apartment with cockroaches behind the fridge when you can move into the vacant 1-story house next door? There;'s plenty of room in that house!

And what is this I'm hearing about terrorist threats?

The Mexicans KNOW that if any terrorists get into this country through the Mexican border, then the Mexicans are ****ed. That's why 5 Arab terrorists and terrorist groups got caught by Mexicans in the past few months and were dealt with; 19 terrorists have slipped through Canada.

5 wins vs. 19 losses = Basic mathematics, folks!

Everyone focuses on doing things legally, ya know? But whatever happened to doing things logically?

Green cards and citizenship tests are an example of what I mean. Say you've got a bomb in your shoe, but you are smart, too. You go to the border, take the test, pass, get your green card, and enter this country... A few weeks later, something explodes, people point to the illegal Mexican working at Home Depot, and the legal one is A-OK.

And green cards... please. What is this, a video game? A video game: 'YOU CANNOT ENTER AMERICA WITHOUT THE GREEN CARD.' That's what I see when I hear about green cards.

Besides, do you think a terrorist is gonna put his real name on a passport? No. He's gonna swipe some guy's wallet, use him as a scapegoat, get a passport, and then we're gonna be playing 'Where's Waldo?' again.

Another example is when I hear people call illegal immigrants 'criminals.' Some guy jumped over a chainlink fence, and he's suddenly on the Top 10 List? What is the flaw with that logic? When you were a kid, you jumped over fences, too! You went swimming because it's good exercise, too! You went to places you shouldn't have been in, too! That illegal guy didn't hurt anyone, why's he in trouble? It's because he's working a job that takes money out of the economy? The economy is already almost -$10,000,000,000,000!!! What's a janitor's salary gonna contribute to that!?

"He's making $3 an hour - get 'im!"

And this brings me to my big point: Why is it that when Mexicans enter this country illegally and take stuff that isn't theirs, they get such a bum rap - this country was FOUNDED by a bunch of people that illegally entered a foreign land and took their stuff! The first Americans didn't negotiate with the Native Americans and buy their land - they swindled and stole from them! Every American history book under the Sun tells you that the first Americans bought the island of Manhattan for $24!! The Native Americans were swindled out of their stuff! I don't care what the rate of inflation is - 424 is NOT a large sum, no matter where and when you lived.

And whatever the first Americans couldn't 'buy,' they stole! Countless Native Americans were killed in the Colonies by the foreign explorers, starting with Columbus himself! Thousands of them were killed when the pioneer Americans crossed the Appalachians and entered the Midwest. The French and Indian War, the battles at Plymouth Rock, the conquest of land over decades that forced the natives onto reservations or they'd be annihilated... it's all there in black and white, people. the Americas were originally the property of the Hispanic natives that landed years before the other Europeans did - the early Americans took the land from the Mexicans and the Native Americans, turned it into a coast-to-coast shopping mall, and now the Mexicans are taking back what was once theirs. It's as simple as that. And people get angry and shocked about it. Don't. There's enough room here for everyone, you know.

And before I rap this up, let me just say that even the legal aliens in this country don't have it so great, so don't make it worse for them...

Well, anyway, I'm starting to get bored, so I'm outta here.

Have a good one! :wave:

-Blade

[Lady Vulpix]

I don't know exactly what the situation is in the USA, but it takes a lot for a person to leave his/her country. I've met some people who were 'illegal' immigrants in Argentina. They wanted to become citizens, but bureaucracy wouldn't allow them to. And as far as I know, it's even harder to become a citizen of the USA. I think things would be different if they were given the chance to become citizens and legalize their situation, and pay taxes like everyone else.

[Jeff]

Exactly, I think we should really overhaul the system for becomming a citizen. We should still be cautious and not let just anyone walk right in, but at the same time we sould make it easier for most people to get into the country to start contributing to the economy, because that's important too.

[Dark Dragonite]

It really isn't hard, there are so many loopholes, owning property(it can even be timeshare), school, you can get a green card by marrying a citizen, or you could take the test.

[Lady Vulpix]

Can anyone take the test? If so, why do so many people know nothing about it?

[Dark Dragonite]

well, it isn't that hard, if you study simple things about the government, states, etc...
http://www.usimmigrationsupport.org/

But think about it, take the test, you're a legal citizen, meaning you can't take advantage of welfare(there are limitations), you can't work for under minimum wage, so you have to compete for jobs, not just get picked up on the corner, and be paid cash, and you have to pay taxes, why would anyone want to do that when they get away with this?

[Krystalline Kabutops]

Kicking out all of our illegal immigrants won't open up a lot of jobs for the rest of us; it'll just leave a lot of fruits and vegetables unpicked and a lot of dishes unwashed.

How many of you have any idea how difficult it is to immigrate to the US legally, even from places like England and Japan? The paperwork, the bureacracy, the time and effort needed... All are things that prevent people from even trying to get in legally. If you're barely scraping by in some Mexican slum, you can't afford the time to try and get all the forms done, the certificates verified, and all the rest.

It seems rather hypocritical to me, in a nation founded by immigrants looking for a new life, to propose laws that would make people with the very same ambition today felons.

[Dark Dragonite]

Actually, my step-mom immagrated here, so I know the process, and it isn't as hard, or long as you make it seem.
And yes, if there were no illegals to do work for illegal wages, that would mean that certain industries, like landscaping for instance, would get better for the workers, and the entrepenuers(sp?) trying to start a business.
Besides, I lived near, and drove through towns the illegals took over, it's not right they way they hoot and holler at the females, of all ages, there are a lot of pedophiles, I lived in a county that kicked at least 30 of them out, once they found them...They live like 20-30 per house/apt, etc...that's creating a slum, patchogue, and Farmingville used to be good towns, now, you see 30 some odd waiting at the corners, locking their bikes up together, waiting to get picked up like prostitutes...(essentially what they are, giving up their livelyhood to do something demeaning at the price they take) and would you want to walk past them, or God forbid, have your sister, mother, daughter pass the gaggles of them?

[Hatake Kakashi]

I have a failproof solution for illegal immigration.


Pay them the same as everyone else no matter what they do and give them the same benefits. How will this stop it, you ask? Think about it. Why is Wal-Mart gonna risk getting caught and sued now that their janitors are all paid standard wages? They might as well hire someone who can legally work in this country and save themselves time and money.

[Razola]

I have a failproof solution for illegal immigration.


Pay them the same as everyone else no matter what they do and give them the same benefits. How will this stop it, you ask? Think about it. Why is Wal-Mart gonna risk getting caught and sued now that their janitors are all paid standard wages? They might as well hire someone who can legally work in this country and save themselves time and money.
Are you joking, or just fucking stupid?

What if Wal-Mart decides NOT to pay them the standard? What the fuck are the illegals going to do? Tell the government? "Hey man, we're illegal immigrants not getting paid standard wages!" BING, DEPORTED!

Great solution if you assume all illegals are retarded.

[Hatake Kakashi]

I think you're missing the entire fucking point. Besides, who says it'll be an illegal immigrant? Someone who gets a pay cut because the company hired 30 illegal immigrants could get pissed and rat out the company.

The point is if they HAVE to pay a standard similar(or equal to) the current minimum wage, then there's NO incentive to hire illegal immigrants. Most businesses would rather err on the side of caution than risk that an employee will rat them out to the feds.

[Dark-San]

Exactly Hatake, and they don't pay taxes, take advantage of our welfare system, molest kids, rape women(I know, citizens do that too, but they can be caught, these illegals aren't in any system, noone knows where they live but their group), and take jobs at below minimum wage, which hurts now unemployed citizens cause they can only legally work at minimum wage...need any more reasons?


[b][size=3] Erm... I believe that this is a generalisation of the whole illegal immigrant as a whole? Not all illegal immigrants does that. So you might want to soften your approach.

Yes, I believe with the rest that they should be deported. In the first place, there should be a system in the country itself that when you are identified as an illegal immigrant, you would be subject to a minimum jail term and deported.

Tough law could be extended to the illegal immigrant's employers.

[Krystalline Kabutops]

Everyone seems to be conveniantly overlooking the fact that, unless you're 100% native American or 100% of slave descent, your ancestors immigrated here in search of a better chance at life than they had at home, whch is exactly what these Mexicans are doing.

[Razola]

I think you're missing the entire fucking point. Besides, who says it'll be an illegal immigrant? Someone who gets a pay cut because the company hired 30 illegal immigrants could get pissed and rat out the company.

The point is if they HAVE to pay a standard similar(or equal to) the current minimum wage, then there's NO incentive to hire illegal immigrants. Most businesses would rather err on the side of caution than risk that an employee will rat them out to the feds.
I think you're missing the entire point. Who's fucking going to enforce it? If the government finds out illegals are working at places, they're gone. Your "solution" does NOTHING. Places would just break the law (I'd bet any penalty for breaking such a stupid law would be lower than having minimum wage employees).

[Jeff]

Everyone seems to be conveniantly overlooking the fact that, unless you're 100% native American or 100% of slave descent, your ancestors immigrated here in search of a better chance at life than they had at home, whch is exactly what these Mexicans are doing.


My great grandmother came over from Sicily, and did not illegally bypass the system, and she payed taxes. This is not exactly the same thing.

[Hatake Kakashi]

I think you're missing the entire point. Who's fucking going to enforce it? If the government finds out illegals are working at places, they're gone. Your "solution" does NOTHING. Places would just break the law (I'd bet any penalty for breaking such a stupid law would be lower than having minimum wage employees).


Italics: Gee, that sure does seem to be the solution doesn't it? The bold part doesn't seem to match it.

[Magmar]

My great grandmother came over from Sicily, and did not illegally bypass the system, and she payed taxes. This is not exactly the same thing.


Hah! Same here! Go Sicily!

What the fool who said that they are doing the same thing as our ancestors has to realize is that my ancestors came through Ellis Island, came here, learned English from news on the radio and worked their asses off to get a 3rd-generation American like me where I am.

[Dark Dragonite]

My family did the same as yours Magmar and Jeff, one side came from Germany, the other from Ireland, and my step-mom came over herself(family still in Russia), she learned english, got her masters, and is very sucessful for herself, all done the right way, so , it can't take that much time and effort to do thingd legally if so many people have done it, and still are doing it.

[mr_pikachu]

I have a failproof solution for illegal immigration.


Pay them the same as everyone else no matter what they do and give them the same benefits. How will this stop it, you ask? Think about it. Why is Wal-Mart gonna risk getting caught and sued now that their janitors are all paid standard wages? They might as well hire someone who can legally work in this country and save themselves time and money.

Um... that's kind of the law already. Hence the term, minimum wage. The thing is, companies freely break this law, because they know they're already doing breaking other laws by hiring illegal immigrants in the first place (see: aiding and abeting a fugitive... illegal immigrants qualify under this characterization, as they haven't yet been arrested for illegally immigrating). But they simply don't complain to the authorities, because if they did, where could they get work?

[Krystalline Kabutops]

Hah! Same here! Go Sicily!

What the fool who said that they are doing the same thing as our ancestors has to realize is that my ancestors came through Ellis Island, came here, learned English from news on the radio and worked their asses off to get a 3rd-generation American like me where I am.
Oh yes, hurling insults around makes you look like the intelligent one here.

[/sarcasm]

1. Keep in mind that YOUR ancestors came through in the years when there was no limit on how many people could immigrate, and that Ellis island made it so that all you had to do was show up and answer questions. Nowadays immigration takes more initiative and commitment than most would-be immigrants can afford.
2. Is that why so many people are on-edge about this? English? 95% of 3rd-generation immigrants, legal or not, can speak nothing BUT english.
3. So you're saying that if you immigrated before 1900, it's ok, but if you want to come over afterwards, you're fucked?

[Lady Vulpix]

I agree with your points there, KK, but you shouldn't be so aggressive. Not that Magmar should either. Could you guys please calm down?

[kalad1]

I simply state, they are criminals, send them back. The purpose of law is to set rules and boundaries, and, in this case, I believe it to be at least fairly just, thus, kick them out, then seriously reinforce the border.

[Dark Dragonite]

KK, back then, the country was starting, we have a lot of people, and are running out of land to put them, should we continue to freely let people in until there's no room to breathe? It's bad enough the government(by that I mean Bush) would rather throw billions into fighting a war we have no business being in rather than fix up New Orleans, so it may take 25yrs before it is liveable again...do you know where all the former residents will go? Let alone adding more at an exponential rate?
There has to be limitations, otherwise, this would be anarchy...And, to prove your point wrong again, I will restate what I've said 3 times, and noone makes notice...Russia, not the nicest place to live either, close to Cuba type living conditions, my step-mom came over with nothing, her parents didn't give her anything, they're doctors over there, and you're talking about a place where only the top 1% rich population can afford to go out to a restaurant to eat, and playing golf is a rich man's game, she did everything by the book, went to college, got a master's degree, and is in a very comfortable life now...it can be done, some people just won't put the effort in...not making any lazy sterotype remarks...

http://images.despair.com/products/demotivators/compromise.jpg

[Krystalline Kabutops]

KK, back then, the country was starting, we have a lot of people, and are running out of land to put them, should we continue to freely let people in until there's no room to breathe? It's bad enough the government(by that I mean Bush) would rather throw billions into fighting a war we have no business being in rather than fix up New Orleans, so it may take 25yrs before it is liveable again...do you know where all the former residents will go? Let alone adding more at an exponential rate?

Never taken a plane trip across the midwest, then?

[Dark Dragonite]

we need area to grow food, do we not?
And should we plow down every single acre, and destroy the wildlife?

[Krystalline Kabutops]

we need area to grow food, do we not?
And should we plow down every single acre, and destroy the wildlife?
The West if you prefer. Nevada anyone?

[mr_pikachu]

1. I live in the midwest. It's not as empty as people seem to think, although some areas (like central Oklahoma, for instance) certainly do have some room for people to move in. New York, on the other hand, would be an impossibility.

2. I'm pretty darn sure I've heard reports that show it'd be way cheaper to build the residents of New Orleans new homes elsewhere than to try to rebuild the old city. What happens when another bad hurricane hits that area? From all the reports I've heard, the catastrophic events tied to Katrina were really just a matter of time, bad levees or not. (And building a levee which could withstand a hurricane of Katrina's strength would apparently be ridiculously expensive.)

While I can understand the sentiments which some of the NO residents apparently hold, it seems to me like the best solution would be to simply build them new homes elsewhere. It'd be way cheaper, and it would help to prevent such tragic events from occuring again in the future. After all, a city below sea level can't withstand a hurricane very well.


EDIT: Actually, there is a good amount of area to grow crops in the midwest, if that's your concern, DD. Again, many areas in central Oklahoma could be utilized, and neighboring states like Kansas, Arkansas, and even Texas have a bit of room. It's not as hard as you might think to find a bit of open, fertile space, even without destroying anything.

[Blademaster]

the fool who said that they are doing the same thing as our ancestors

....

..........

...

Did I just get dissed? :confused:

[Metallixs Girl]

I am for the most part conservative, and for what I don't agree with conservatives on it's usually middle or leaning to the right in a way. (Dunno why but that's how I am lol, not a fanatic conservative, but NOT liberal)

Anyway, the conservative in me says "They're illegal and criminals and don't pay taxes so they should be deported. The other half says "I don't really care but they should at least learn English and not expect people to learn Spanish when THEY snuck into OUR country, that's backwards!" So I suppose the second half wins this one, if they come here, learn English.

[Hatake Kakashi]

..How are those views conflicted?

[mr_pikachu]

To be honest, with things the way they are at the moment, I have bigger concerns than with people learning the language of the country they live in. The scary part for me is that, with all sorts of people coming across the border, and without any way of tracking them or even knowing who is or isn't here, how can we know what they bring with them?

(If you need me to spell it out for you, how the heck can we keep people from bringing nuclear/chemical/biological weapons across the bordern with such incredibly weak border security?)

[Dark Dragonite]

Does anyone else see the ad at the top of the page every once in a while...anyone find this ironic??

[Chikoo]

you white people are funny. my kind of mexicans don't work for minimum wage, molest children, or even work in fields or wal-mart. let us terrorists be! :lolz:
go unclog your generalizations, guys. :wave:

god i missed you all. :)

ps- whattt plz. is this really about the annoyance of hearing people speaking spanish? and since when are "we" enforcing you to learn "our" language.
think of the thousands of status-mixed families that will be forced to separate. only then you'll wipe out a large amount of immigrants.

[Metallixs Girl]

..How are those views conflicted?


Well, I guess conflicted kinda being "They should be deported - I don't really care" The second being more to the middle.

[Hatake Kakashi]

you white people are funny. my kind of mexicans don't work for minimum wage, molest children, or even work in fields or wal-mart. let us terrorists be! :lolz:
The legal kind?


go unclog your generalizations, guys. :wave:

god i missed you all. :)

ps- whattt plz. is this really about the annoyance of hearing people speaking spanish? and since when are "we" enforcing you to learn "our" language.
think of the thousands of status-mixed families that will be forced to separate. only then you'll wipe out a large amount of immigrants.


Or, you know, think of all the people who will finally know the language of their country of residence.

Perish the thought. Adapting to your environment? How dare we ask that of anyone.


Also notice no one said you can't speak your native language at home, to each other, etc. Just, you know, learn the language of the country to function properly in society.

[Chikoo]

For me it wasn't adaption, it was the strive for success (as cheesy as it sounds). It took me six fucking years to get down the beautiful language of the world. Even though I am a first-generation, I won't let words like "perish" get in the way of my understandment. :rolleyes: (haha)
And actually, no. I know illegals working all the way around the career spectrum. Do you really think they'll be put down by those complaining that we are taking their shit-cleaning and strawberry-picking occupations away? And what is it with you all that believe that all illegals don't speak English or know their right from their left.

Go Secily!

[Hatake Kakashi]

Because if they didn't even take the time to LEGALLY enter the country what makes us think they're gonna take the time and learn a language? If they learn the language, there's no reason they can't take a citizinship test.

[Chikoo]

You have to take into consideration that this people are all afraid. They fear that if they even attempt to do such thing, they will get deported.
And are we forgetting that hispanics will be the ones mostly affected, there are still other kinds of immigrants?

[mr_pikachu]

People, come on. We're trying to come up with all sorts of measures so that illegal immigrants can live in the U.S., etc., etc. And yet very few people seem to care that illegal immigrants are in the country illegally. As far as I know, people aren't supposed to benefit from activities which are illegal. And yet, when it comes to immigration, most of us apparently want to give a free pass. Do the laws not count if we decide we don't like them? If we decide they're unfair to some people? Seriously! And please, don't try to argue that immigrating legally is too hard. Not only have several people offered testimony that it's really not that difficult, but even if we say it is a little difficult, so what? Lots of things in life are tough to get. But hey, that doesn't seem to stop the people who really want them. So if immigrating legally takes a little effort, then if you want to come to the U.S. and be a productive citizen, use a little effort and just do it!

Sorry if this rant was a little harsh. I'm just frustrated by the subject myself. The fact that most of the country doesn't seem to give a damn about border security and immigration really irks me. And I actually didn't want Misc. to turn into a flame war zone again, so the escalating tension here has got me somewhat on edge. My apologies if I offended anyone. I really appreciate legal immigrants coming into the country and contributing to its growth while partaking in what we have to offer. I just wish that more immigrants would choose that method of entering the nation.

[Dark Dragonite]

I agree with Hatake Kakashi and Mr. Pikachu on this, don't mean to be harsh, but those shirts are dead on:
"Welcome to America, now speak English"
OR
"Welcome to America, now go home"

Anyways, English is supposed to be the major language, I don't mind you speaking your native tongue at home, but if I'm in a restaurant, or store, I need to be able to understand what you are saying to me...I'm lucky, I took Spanish for like 6yrs in school, so I knew a good bit, for when I'd be out with a female friend, or a girlfriend and they would mouth off...I learned your language, and no, I don't think English is harder, and not just cause it's my native language, but because we don't really have 5 different ways to say a verb:(pardon my rustiness, I will most likely get this wrong)
English:
I go, he does, they go, we go
Spanish:
Yo voy
Tu vas
El/Ella/Usted va
Nosotros Vamos
Ellos Ellas Ustedes Vemos

[Lady Vulpix]

That's 'van', not 'vemos'. 'Vemos' means 'we see'. And there's also 'vosotros vais', but hardly anyone ever uses that.

Now, English has its difficulties too, with so many words whose pronounciation you can't tell from reading them, and so many phrasal verbs, and the uses of 'in', 'on', 'at', etc. with no apparent logic... And so many words with subtle differences to refer to laughing and walking... among other things. I'm sure all languages have their difficulties.

[Magmar]

English has the problem where the same word means ten million things. In Spanish, we encounter "que" "como" and the verbs "hacer" and "querer" an awful lot. Also, there are a variety of tenses--but English has the same ones, too! No tense in Spanish does not have a direct connotation to a tense in English. English, also, has a bajillion spelling changes that occur within the same stem word, whereas in Spanish, we keep the same spelling and simply change the ending. There are a few stem-changers, but those always follow the same pattern except for verbs like "conocer". The trouble with English is that verbs tend to transform from verb to verb. Spanish only has three kinds and a few sub-types of the same kinds, like the "e->ie" verbs and the "ar" verbs where first-person is "-oy" like "dar" and "estar".

This comes from the copy editor for a newspaper, so I hope I know English enough to say this!

[Hatake Kakashi]

You have to take into consideration that this people are all afraid. They fear that if they even attempt to do such thing, they will get deported.
And are we forgetting that hispanics will be the ones mostly affected, there are still other kinds of immigrants?

It DOES need tobe made clear that if you make an effort, we will let you live in the country. I.e post signs along the border(both sides) in spanish AND english saying if you make an attempt to take the test, you're allowed to stay.

Hell, I say institute a 90 day grace period after your first test failure(extended if your test is scheduled AFTER that date, up to 90 extra days). If you don't pass that time, you get one last chance. Fail that, and you ARE deported.

And instead of instantly deporting someone, give them a few weeks to study as an alternative. If they truly wanna stay, they'll have no problem learning american history.


But even beyond all this, it's just accomodating criminals. And don't get on my ass for that, ILLEGAL immigrants commited a crime. Hence the term.

[Lady Vulpix]

I've just seen a TV broadcast about a demonstration of Mexican immigrants in the USA. They were claiming for a chance to become legal citizens, just like I suspected. If the test is, indeed, available to anyone, and everyone who cares to study the language, geography and history of the country can pass it, then it's not widely known.

[Hatake Kakashi]

It's common sense though. It's not like it's a well-hidden secret.

[Dark Dragonite]

For those of you who think they are harmless...they are driving, illegally...obviously, if they aren't here legally, they have no right driving, let alone what they did to a poor couple just hours ago...:
The scene...the side of a MAJOR road(4lanes each direction with a grass divider)
A cop, lights flashing behind one of the day labor trucks...the guys seated on the ground, most likely arrested, and being deported...on the other side of the divider...a young couple, in their 20's, with a nice new chevy cavalier(probably last year they made 2005) all messed up in the back, and facing the wrong way on the other side of the divider from the truck that hit them...This could have been a horrible tragedy, with them being hit on the front dead on too...still think illegals are harmless?
Who's gonna pay medical bills, or replace the car?

[Blademaster]

That's kind of a weak argument, DD - citizens in this country drive no better than that guy.

In fact, more often, people in this country DO cause fatal car accidents - aren't they like the leading cause of death in America after heart problems or something?

[Dark Dragonite]

Blademaster, you don't get it...if you're hit by a citizen, chances are...they have insurance, and are legally driving, so, you get compensated for your losses...illegals cannot get insurance...I guess you'll learn when you get older, and into car accidents, I've been there...
I'm not necessarily saying illegals can't drive, just NOT LEGALLY...IE...that couple is screwed...new car, doctor bills, out of their pocket...

[Blademaster]

Oh...

Fair enough, then...

But I'd still rather be broke than dead.

[Hatake Kakashi]

Oh...

Fair enough, then...

But I'd still rather be broke than dead.


So because it's an illegal immigrant behind the wheel of the car you're suddenly not going to die?

It's not like only licensed and insured drivers can kill you in a car accident.

[Crystal Mew]

Lucky for me I live in New Mexico where plenty of Mexican Immigrants live :)

I do not mind if they take the time to learn english and become a legal citizen. What I do mind is them coming here, and expecting everyone to learn spanish for them. Everything in stores now is english/spanish. I'm talking about PRODUCTS... like pantene. I found some completely in spanish, wtf. people speak spanish to me at work, and obviously I dont know that much of it to undertand wtf they are talking about. They are illegal, and shouldnt be here....unless of course they took the time to become a legal citizen, then fine.

I'm not racist against any of them....but honestly. it does get annoying after awhile.

[Calaveron]

For those of you who think they are harmless...they are driving, illegally...obviously, if they aren't here legally, they have no right driving, let alone what they did to a poor couple just hours ago...:
The scene...the side of a MAJOR road(4lanes each direction with a grass divider)
A cop, lights flashing behind one of the day labor trucks...the guys seated on the ground, most likely arrested, and being deported...on the other side of the divider...a young couple, in their 20's, with a nice new chevy cavalier(probably last year they made 2005) all messed up in the back, and facing the wrong way on the other side of the divider from the truck that hit them...This could have been a horrible tragedy, with them being hit on the front dead on too...still think illegals are harmless?
Who's gonna pay medical bills, or replace the car?

How the Christ are you even assuming the driver is an illegal immigrant?
Also, it turns out now that being insured makes you invincible?

[Magmar]

ARGH! I'm VERY disappointed. The newspaper I copy edit had a special debate section on HR 4437 last week in it, and there's no copy of it online! Grrrr! Me Barry smash! I was all excited.

Illegal immigrants have killed WAY too many people on the road.

[Roy Karrde]

Lucky for me I live in New Mexico where plenty of Mexican Immigrants live :)

I do not mind if they take the time to learn english and become a legal citizen. What I do mind is them coming here, and expecting everyone to learn spanish for them. Everything in stores now is english/spanish. I'm talking about PRODUCTS... like pantene. I found some completely in spanish, wtf. people speak spanish to me at work, and obviously I dont know that much of it to undertand wtf they are talking about. They are illegal, and shouldnt be here....unless of course they took the time to become a legal citizen, then fine.

I'm not racist against any of them....but honestly. it does get annoying after awhile.




Gotta agree with this, if anyone has driven into Dallas you have to have seen how much the city is bending over backwards for Mexican Immigrants that refuse to learn Spanish. We now have Spanish only billboards, Spanish Streetsigns, and about as many Spanish TV stations than English stations. Not to mention that 3 out of the top 5 Radio Stations in North Texas are Spanish stations. It is really starting to feel like Mexico down here than the U.S.

[Dark Dragonite]

That's kind of a weak argument, DD - citizens in this country drive no better than that guy.

In fact, more often, people in this country DO cause fatal car accidents - aren't they like the leading cause of death in America after heart problems or something?

Actually I believe the leading 2 causes of death in USA are Heart attack, and Cancer...
people in this country legally more likely than not have insurance...

Also, for those of you giving that weak BS about our ancestors coming here so easy...go watch "Gangs of New York"...they weren't greeted with open arms, they were hated too...
Why did they have their little towns, like in NYC, little chinatown, little italy, the irish part, polish part...

Does anyone else see the banner on the top of tpm, saying to click here to become a citizen, anyone find it ironic?

Oh, and let's put it this way...you hop a fence, be a felon(they are criminals, whether it's right to have immigration laws or not, which I think our country has the right to have them) you get to stay illegally, maybe even get granted citizenship now...but my step mom came from russia, did things the legal way, earned a master's degree...now her parents and sister are stuck in Russia due to beurocratic bs, HOW IS THIS FAIR?

[mr_pikachu]

With the driving issue, there's also the problem that driving in Mexico is different than driving in America. I believe the lanes are switched, for starters. That can be very disorienting if you're not careful - try making a right turn on a red light in Mexico, for instance. You're used to only having to check your left side to yield... and you get smashed by a car coming the other way on your right.

I also don't want to rely on illegal immigrants just being able to pick up how the signs work in America. We have whole courses dedicated to informing you that an orange sign means you should slow down before you take out a construction worker, and half the teens I've seen still don't understand it. So how is someone supposed to know that if going to a driver's ed class would be too risky because they could be deported? Honestly, that sort of thing is why I'm nervous about illegal immigrants driving. Insurance is a secondary concern; after all, you wouldn't be in the hospital in the first place if the guy hadn't assumed that the Interstate 244 sign indicated the speed limit.

[Dark Dragonite]

How the Christ are you even assuming the driver is an illegal immigrant?
Also, it turns out now that being insured makes you invincible?

When a cop has them sitting down in cuffs...after an accident, either drunk or illegal, and I don't know mexicans to drink on the job, they are hard workers...
No, insurance does not make you invincible...BUT, it does pay for the other person's expenses, especially if it's a funeral...check out the prices on an average funeral nowadays...
And...Chill, you don't need to flip out and use the Lord's name in vain... :rolleyes:

[Crystal Mew]

Today apparently there were many protests about this...

I was talking to someone, and they were like "wow great, they're all together in a big group already, just send some cops down and arrest them all and DEPORT"

hmmm...I dunno if protesting is going to do much about this law. I dont know

[Dark Dragonite]

Today apparently there were many protests about this...

I was talking to someone, and they were like "wow great, they're all together in a big group already, just send some cops down and arrest them all and DEPORT"

hmmm...I dunno if protesting is going to do much about this law. I dont know


LOL, I'm sorry, but I would personally find it hysterical if they deported them while they were in a big group protesting...
BUT, it will cost too much money to deport all 12+million of them...they get a free citizenship I guess...which means, I'm gonna cause a big stink about my step-mom's family...

[Jeff]

I'm not completely sure what's going on with all this. I saw on TV a bunch of Mexicans protesting the fact that it's illegal to be here illegally (yeah, still trying to figure that one out). And I'm really not sure why that, if it's obvious that the protesters are illegal, like someone said before, why don't we round em up and deport them. But the one thing that really confuses me is that why is Congress trying to pass this bill that will make illegals citizens? That really sends the wrong message to those trying to enter legally, it's like "Congratulations, you snuck into the country and managed to sneak by us for five years, you're a citizen! As for everyone waiting in line, you'll have to wait longer."

[Roy Karrde]

Yeah we had a 300,000 to 500,000 protest here in Dallas. There wasn't really any trouble caused from what I said and they actually waved American flags this time >.>. Yet really, that protest kind of freaked me out, I mean there is 300,000 to 500,000 illigals or people that support illigals in just North Texas alone. What would happen if this law did go through and they decided to riot? It really puts everything in perspective I guess.

Edit: This protest in Dallas, cost the tax payers, $200,000 dollers for Police over time. To say this stuff is starting to get annoying and costly for us legal citizens, is a understatement.

[Dark Dragonite]

PROBLEM WITH DEPORTING: it would cost an amount we couldn't even fathom...don't get me wrong, I want them out, but not at the cost of the economy...

[Hatake Kakashi]

I'm not completely sure what's going on with all this. I saw on TV a bunch of Mexicans protesting the fact that it's illegal to be here illegally (yeah, still trying to figure that one out). And I'm really not sure why that, if it's obvious that the protesters are illegal, like someone said before, why don't we round em up and deport them. But the one thing that really confuses me is that why is Congress trying to pass this bill that will make illegals citizens? That really sends the wrong message to those trying to enter legally, it's like "Congratulations, you snuck into the country and managed to sneak by us for five years, you're a citizen! As for everyone waiting in line, you'll have to wait longer."


Some people oppose it because they have family who came here illegally, so it's not so easy.

[mr_pikachu]

PROBLEM WITH DEPORTING: it would cost an amount we couldn't even fathom...don't get me wrong, I want them out, but not at the cost of the economy...

But would it really be better for the economy to let them drain the country's resources over many more years? Better to take the hit now than to hesitate with indecision and lose a lot more in the long run.

[Calaveron]

When a cop has them sitting down in cuffs...after an accident, either drunk or illegal, and I don't know mexicans to drink on the job, they are hard workers...
No, insurance does not make you invincible...BUT, it does pay for the other person's expenses, especially if it's a funeral...check out the prices on an average funeral nowadays...
And...Chill, you don't need to flip out and use the Lord's name in vain... :rolleyes:

This is so incredibly racist it's not funny.

[Dark Dragonite]

which part is racist, saying that when a cop has hispanic people, who appear to be Mexicans, sitting down in handcuffs after being at fault in an accident, they are probably illegals...or the part about saying Mexicans are hard workers...
Come back when you have something productive to the table, and stop saying "what the Christ" or "How the Christ" geez...

[Blademaster]

PROBLEM WITH DEPORTING: it would cost an amount we couldn't even fathom...don't get me wrong, I want them out, but not at the cost of the economy...


...

What economy?



But would it really be better for the economy to let them drain the country's resources over many more years? Better to take the hit now than to hesitate with indecision and lose a lot more in the long run.


Yeah, exactly. We Americans are so great at planning ahead, after all - just look at how quickly we agreed with the Japanese-anti-global-warming-idea, the don't-bomb-the-Arabs-because-they-have-all-of-our-oil-and-that's-a-vital-resource-in-our-country-idea, the everyone-is shopping-at-Wal-Mart-which-is-costing-thousnads-of-hard-working-middle-class-people-their-jobs-idea, the develop-a-vaccine-for-avian-flu-before-it-gets-to-us-oh-wait-it-almost-has-idea, the what-happened-to-the-space-shuttle?-idea, the build-a-wall-to-keep-some-other-country-from-sending-thousands-of-missiles-at-us-idea, the what-the-****-are-our-troops-doing-in-Iraq?-idea, ........

[Dark Dragonite]

The faltering economy barely afloat...Thanks Mr. Bush...I didn't vote for him...
Anyways, can you fathom how much it would cost to send 12-15million people back? Workman hours, hiring thousands of new people to do it, shipping them, they are all over, NY-CA-FL, everywhere, it costs money, the theory is...if you make them legal, you can tax them, and prohibit abuse of the tax and welfare system they pull now...
SOMETHING SAD: THEY know OUR system better than WE do... WE could claim the money held in reserve, but we don't, so they learn, and do...

Also...the problem isn't JUST the criminals(illegals), we need to start throwing the people who hire them in JAIL...not slaps on the wrist, but hard time, scare them!!

[SupremeChampion]

ok, personally i think they should give all the illegals a work visa as of right now, so we can track them. then offer them the chance to become american citizens, legal ones. now i would guess that most would jump at the chance. the ones who don't, i say send them back. yea, it might cost a lot of money and all that, but it would work out in the long run, as jobs would now be available for people who need to earn more than .25 an hour or whatever they make. i also agree with your dark dragonite that the people who own the companies who employ illegals need to be thrown in jail asap. anyway, for those who claim that they're kids are americans, oh well. if they pass their citizenship test and become legal, they have nothing to worry about. if not, then i say that they should send the entire family home but the kids can come back when they're ready, you know? then you would think they would sponsor their family for citizenship and all that, which would work out. i also think we need to increase our border patrol so we can do a better job at keeping the illegals out.

oh, and on an off note, i think that a good move in this direction would be to make english the offical language in america and be done with all this multi-language stuff we got all over the place. now before anyone calls me racisit, listen to me. first off, i'm not. secondly, when my great-grandparents came to america from italy they needed to learn english or they would not be able to do anything here, like buy groceries and the sort. i think we're too lenient in that aspect today. we should make it so that when you go out to buy something, you don't need to have a spanish translator or instructions in spanish. i mean, if they want to speak spanish in their homes (like my great-grandparents/grandparents/parents do in my home [well in italian]), i'm all for it. but when they go out in public, i really think they need to learn english. once again, i am not a racisit in any stretch of the imagination, but i do[i] feel strongly on the matter.

~The Italian Stallion

[mr_pikachu]

The faltering economy barely afloat...Thanks Mr. Bush...I didn't vote for him...

That's funny, considering that the unemployment rate just dropped to a 4 1/2 year low (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060407/bs_nm/economy_dc_1) of 4.7 percent. That's the lowest it's been since the 4.6% rate just before the September 11 attacks, which caused chaos in the job market.

[Dark Dragonite]

That's funny, considering that the unemployment rate just dropped to a 4 1/2 year low (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060407/bs_nm/economy_dc_1) of 4.7 percent. That's the lowest it's been since the 4.6% rate just before the September 11 attacks, which caused chaos in the job market.


Ok, please don't make me get the stats again...
41/2yrs...which is still Bush's reign...actually, if I show you the stats from a government site, not yahoo, it will show they were high with Bush Sr., hit an alltime low with Clinton, and went up again with Jr.
Clinton, president 1993-2001
Bush Sr. 1989-1993
Bush Jr. 2001-Present

Unemployment % from beaureau of Labor Stats.gov

http://www.bls.gov/cps/prev_yrs.htm
YEAR %Unemployed
1989 5.3
1990 5.6
1991 6.8
1992 7.5
1993 6.9
1994 6.1
1995 5.6
1996 5.4
1997 4.9
1998 4.5
1999 4.2
2000 4.0
2001 4.7
2002 5.8
2003 6.0
2004 5.5
Notice the dip down to 4.0% in 2000, then with Jr, it goes up to 6.0%...now it's back to 4.7% which it went up from the change of Clinton to Bush Jr?
This is how they control gas prices...they have a set amount they want the price at, then raise it higher, people get pissed...they lower it, people are happy with this great lowering...to the amount the gas people wanted in the first place...

[mr_pikachu]

This page (http://ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/special.requests/lf/aat1.txt) has the rates going back to 1947 (persons 16 and over). Persons 14 and over are tracked from 1940-1947.


1. I'm not sure what you mean about problems during the Bush Sr. presidency. 1989 (the first year he was in office) had a 5.3% unemployment rate, which was the lowest since 1973. The increases afterward largely had to do with the Gulf war, which began in 1991. Note the change in the unemployment rate from 5.6% to 6.8% from 1990 to 1991.

2. Looking at Bush Jr., the increases can be explained by the Iraq war. The .7% increase from 2000 to 2001 were likely due in large part to the previously mentioned September 11 attacks, which caused all sorts of turmoil in the U.S. economy for the fourth quarter of that year. The full effects were not seen until 2002, where a full year's time could be measured post 9-11. The unemployment rate skyrocketed then to 5.8%. Now that the war is dying down somewhat (I'm not going to argue that it's anywhere remotely close to over, because then I'd be lying), the confidence of employers is improving, allowing more accurate figures to present themselves.

3. Contrary to popular belief, the government has little to no effect on gas prices. OPEC (the Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries) has nearly total control of what areas can be drilled for oil. By controlling this, they control the supply of oil. And as any economic scholar will tell you, the relation between supply and demand is what determines the average price of an item. A high supply-demand ratio will make prices go down. A low ratio makes prices increase. Demand, in this case, is determined how how many people want crude oil products (like gasoline) and how much they want. That can only be influenced by giving consumers an alternate fuel source; such sources are being developed. (Just look at hybrid vehicles.) So for the time being, supply is easiest to influence. Therefore, OPEC has nearly total control over gas prices.

[Dark Dragonite]

I didn't mean the gov. controls gas, although Bush has a lot of interest in it,,,I meant this is the method they use...

Also, why did we go to war both times? what did we get? more dead people, and other countries hating us.
I will admit,  don't understand why rates go up with war, jobs still need to get done, and someone has to fill those that werte the soldiers'

I won't start with 9/11, I think it was rigged...

[Hatake Kakashi]

This is more than a little off-topic though, don'tcha think?

Start a general politics thread if ya wanna argue the Bush thing :P

(jesus where are the REAL mods of this forum?)

[Dark Dragonite]

it didn't really get THAT far off topic...it went from illegal immigrants, to sending them all home, to me saying the affect on the economy would be real bad(although I'm for sending them home), to what economy, to a faltering one thanks to Bush, to someone saying Bush brought unemployment down, to me proving that wrong, to it going up cause of war, to me saying the wars shouldn't have happened in the first place.
And there you have it, 12 degrees of Kevin Bacon...

[Jeff]

The faltering economy barely afloat...Thanks Mr. Bush...I didn't vote for him...


More like thanks to the dot-com bust, 9/11, and the hurricanes, none of which Bush caused, and in fact the main reason for the booming economy in the 90s was the dot-com bubble itself. Sorry, I know it's off topic but it had to be said.

[Dark Dragonite]

More like thanks to the dot-com bust, 9/11, and the hurricanes, none of which Bush caused, and in fact the main reason for the booming economy in the 90s was the dot-com bubble itself. Sorry, I know it's off topic but it had to be said.


I may be a conspiracy theorist on this, but Bush let 9/11 happen...look at how it happened, missing planes, ones that were never in the sky...no wonder his approval rating is the worst...

[Roy Karrde]

Bush letting 9/11 happen is one of the nuttiest things that I have ever heard. There are just too many ways that it could be made public and he would be kicked out of office. There are egnough people out there that hate him with such venom that they would go through every scrap of evidence to try and prove that he let 9/11 happen or that he wanted it to happen.

[Dark Dragonite]

Bush letting 9/11 happen is one of the nuttiest things that I have ever heard. There are just too many ways that it could be made public and he would be kicked out of office. There are egnough people out there that hate him with such venom that they would go through every scrap of evidence to try and prove that he let 9/11 happen or that he wanted it to happen.


Bush got his war through it, didn't he?
http://www.reopen911.org/

[Roy Karrde]

You are linking to a website that believes * atleast from what I saw on the front page * that Isreail had a connection in 9/11. Not only that but articles that believe explosives were placed on the building and that the building was taken down that way. Even though Structure Engeneers have proven otherwise. Next thing you know they will be saying the Pentagon was hit by a missle and not a plane. Some of the nuts out there and their websites are crazy.

[Blademaster]

Some of the nuts out there and their websites are crazy.


Yeah, Bush being told 'by God (which even the Bible says is impossible)' to go and fight people (which the Commandments forbid) in another country that had nothing to do with 9/11 is MUCH more sensible...

[Roy Karrde]

May I ask what that has to do with ANYTHING other than providing even more Political Bigotry to this topic that is supposed to be about Illigal Immigration?

[Blademaster]

(shrugs)

I dunno - not much more than posting about who/what caused the Twin Towers to collapse in this topic that is supposed to be about illegal immigration? :confused:

[Greyfox]

The topic fails because it keeps branching out into things that have nothing to do with anything. Because of this, the topic is now about bobble-head dolls.

-drew

[Dark Dragonite]

Actually Drew, I can tie terrorism back to this...
Ok, 12+million illegal immigrants came through unchecked...who's to say terrorists won't see that as the perverbial open window...

[Blademaster]

Well, because as I said before, the 19 hijackers came through from Canada, and we all know what happened as a result...

Mexico, on the other hand... Well, 5 groups of Middle Eastern terrorists have gone through Mexico over the past few months, and none of them got through - the Mexicans got 'em all caught.

...

So, we should be thanking the Mexicans, actually.

-Blade

P.S. Bobble heads are DA SHIZNIT! :nod:

[Roy Karrde]

True, but Mexico is almost third worldish in comparison to the rest of North America. Mexico's borders with the United States are extremely poorly guarded, and each day Mexican Drug gangs cross the borders to fight with rival drug gangs on our side. Also as shown recently it is extremely easy to get Nuke material across the borders into the US through Mexico. Terrorist basically go over the border every day, we just call them Drug Gangs. If they can get over, how long will it take until terrorists with an actual weapon and motive to use it gets over? Do you really want to take that chance, or strengthen the borders now.

[phaedrus]

truth is, illegal immigrants provide at least $6B (around there, if i remember correctly) of the Social Security funds. they pay in because they have fake SSNs, but they get nothing, because they're illegal.

sure it seems like nothing considering the largest portion of the 12T budget, but in reality, it can mean a lot to people who rely on that extra 6B of SS to survive.

also, with RGDP growth around 3%, unemployment at 4.9%, core inflation around 2%, and CPI around 3% (i think), our economy is a little overheated. so, bernanke is doing the right thing. which means our economy is doing fine, despite all the fiscal policy retardedness.

[mr_pikachu]

truth is, illegal immigrants provide at least $6B (around there, if i remember correctly) of the Social Security funds. they pay in because they have fake SSNs, but they get nothing, because they're illegal.

Pardon me for my ignorance, but that doesn't make sense to me. I probably just haven't gotten enough sleep lately, but something really seems off with that...

If they're illegal immigrants with fake Social Security Numbers, how would the government even know about them? After all, if they're using fake numbers to get by in daily life, the government would likely never know about it because they wouldn't have a record of the person at all (again, assuming the SS number is, like you said, fake). Other people might have a record of this person, but unless word got back to the government, they'd never know. And most of the illegals are smart enough to find an employer who's dealt with many illegals hiding from the government - so they wouldn't send the SSNs.

This seems to be true unless you're saying that they get someone on the inside of the system to secretly give them a fake SSN... but why would they do that? I don't think that they'd receive any benefits from it, and it'd make it a lot easier for the government to track them down. After all, suddenly there's a record of the person. A fake record, yes, but if you follow the trail of evidenciary bread crumbs far enough, you'll find the illegal immigrant.

I apologize if this post ends up being totally incoherent... I haven't slept for awhile, so my brain is fried. I guess my main question is why the immigrants would bother getting SSNs, since they wouldn't gain anything from it. If they don't have SSNs, they don't pay taxes, and the Social Security fund gets no money. (And if they do get fake SSNs, they likely still wouldn't be paying taxes, especially since employers of immigrants tend to like to keep things "off the books.")

[phaedrus]

two words: payroll taxes. they fork over 8%, so does the employer.

edit: if they didn't have fake SSNs, they can't get a job. not only that, the SSNs are all forged (e.g. photoshopped SSNs), so the government would never know anyways. they just know because it's pretty obvious, especially if you look towards the agriculture in California, even in inner cities like chicago, new york, etc.

[Roy Karrde]

They also send something in the estimate of 38 Billion per year back to Mexico, money that we wont get. Why do you think Mexico is so against legalizing them? It would mean they would pay taxes alot each year and Mexico would get less money back.

[phaedrus]

They also send something in the estimate of 38 Billion per year back to Mexico, money that we wont get. Why do you think Mexico is so against legalizing them? It would mean they would pay taxes alot each year and Mexico would get less money back.


moral of the story is that status quo is better than making some half-assed changes. :oh:

and hopefully that 38B goes towards infrastructure. though it probably goes to companies willing to develop a stronger tequila.

[Dark Dragonite]

two words: payroll taxes. they fork over 8%, so does the employer.

edit: if they didn't have fake SSNs, they can't get a job. not only that, the SSNs are all forged (e.g. photoshopped SSNs), so the government would never know anyways. they just know because it's pretty obvious, especially if you look towards the agriculture in California, even in inner cities like chicago, new york, etc.


Are you kidding?
Maybe some of the illegals with better jobs have fake ones(wonder what poor citizens are getting fucked by that), but the guys who ride the bikes to the corner, and get picked up for Day Labor, they need nothing, and probably have exactly that, no id whatsoever.

[phaedrus]

Are you kidding?
Maybe some of the illegals with better jobs have fake ones(wonder what poor citizens are getting ****ed by that), but the guys who ride the bikes to the corner, and get picked up for Day Labor, they need nothing, and probably have exactly that, no id whatsoever.


more illegals need the fake SSNs for their jobs than you apparently think. i don't have figures on me but there's more illegals with SSNs than without.