Moderation: Why?

[Plantae]

I have grown ill with the politics and am aware that others have too. I have a suggestion, possibly wild, but as the saying goes, "so crazy it might work." All of these moderation shenanigans are causing havoc (albeit possibly a subtle kind) on the regular practice of role-playing in this forum; they stifle what was one a comfortable setting. The basic idea to correct this is to remove the problem. You may presume the problem is the politics themselves. Well, personally, I believe the problem lies elsewhere.

Yes: you may have guessed it. My real idea is that we remove moderation entirely.

We are a mature group, are we not? What do we really need moderators for? Splitting the role of member and moderator in this forum does little good. Regular role-players can start awards, tournaments, dances, parties, sign-up topics, miscellaneous threads... we can organize projects and gather ideas. What do we lose without a moderator?

Leadership is not an obligatory quality of a moderator. Leaders can still be present in the community without them being a moderator. If you look, you can already see these sorts of people. If we lose a moderator, we will not lose a necessary leader.

Policing is one of their duties. As already stated, we mostly police ourselves. If necessary we could have one a super moderator browse every now and then for troublemakers and take requests to archive threads and sticky topics. This might place duties on them, but they are super moderators. Surely a little extra administration would not kill them, though if this presumptions should offend such a super moderator that reads this, I apologize. But scarcely, being that it is not so hard to do.

It is obviously evidenced that the RPG Forum can and will organize most of what is done in it without the need of help by moderators who are no more than members with a few extra buttons available. The reason being that though they may possess outstanding qualities, other members possess them anyway.

My blanket idea is that we nix all rules of approval. We have a basic outline of what can be done and a few general rules at the helm and then we do as we have always done. That is, folks, role-play. Awards topics, the RPG News... commonplace things, surely? Do we really need to approve each one separately? As long as everyone obeys the rules, there is need for little enforcement, most of which can come from another, veteran role-player or just generally helpful member or a super moderator.

I realize that eliminating all moderators might be drastic and I realize my views have been different in the pasts. In the interest of that, it is possible that there remain one moderator whose sole function would be to act as an impartial enforcer of the rules. And when I say impartial, I mean is frankly without cause to prohibit any idea on the forum. That way, creativity survives regardless of any sort of stubborn moderator opinion.

Please discuss the matter. Maybe you never really thought about it, but think about it now. And then vote on the poll so that your opinions might be verified.

If this is closed by a moderator, I will take it as power-mongering and I assume that the rest of you, as a community, will respond accordingly to such an act of dictatorship.

[Roy Karrde]

You can take it as you want Plantae, but since I am pretty much the only mod active right now till we get two new ones, I will allow this to be left open for the time being.

As for your idea, if this was say General Discussion, then yes we could have one mod. That is becuase there is almost no posting in General Discussion and pretty much no need for leadership. The problem is this isn't General Discussion. We have tried it before in the past when we had pretty much one mod, and almost no leadership. That time was around say November or before, till around Feb. The forum faltered, badly. There will always be a need for leadership, for someone to step forward with ideas.

As for this RPG Politics, I am really getting sick and tired of hearing RPG politics this, and RPG politics that. I can understand Kalah saying that, but it is growing as the new catch phrase and I am frankly getting really sick of it. Anything that happens this forum is chalked up as RPG Politics, and even when things are not happening. We still have RPG Politics.

Anyway to put a end to this, we are getting two new mods, one that will hopefully help and work on the RPG forum, and one to help me with the ASBRPG forum since I am kind of one manning it right now when it comes to posting topics and stuff. Both are needed, and both will be able to help this forum.

I wish we didn't need mods, that everyone had leadership skill, and everyone had the powers of mod and were able to lock topics, move them, merge them, and sticky them. Yet the forum wont allow that. Anyway I'm finishing with my responce, I'm exausted and just sick of reading RPG Politics in the last five posts that I have seen.

[Ultimate Charizard]

Plantae this is the biggest pile of Hypocritical crap ive ever seen. Back when all the mess started with myself and JT you were one of the leading voices calling out for active moderation, not accepting that its acceptable for a mod to take a backseat and now you change your mind?
The reason for 'approval' of certain threads and other practices have been in place since long before you began posting here. Back in the days of Mike and Ginger they understood that without a few rules things can get out of hand. IE People wanting to start an awards thread when the mods themselves were planning an official one, or somone wanting to set the award categories specifically for them to win (back then some people were that petty).
It got so bad with 'party' threads at one point they came under the approval banner.
These arent rules set up to force control over people, they are neccessary methods developed using a trial and error system.
I dont wish to offend, you sound intelligent (or maybe just good with a Thesaurus) but to start debating politics, changing your views to suit whatever situation your in, and frankly speaking out of turn (again in public instead of going to the mods with your concerns) is uncalled for.
What is with the current trend of throwing complaints with moderators straight into the public forum? Are you afraid to go 'against' them without the backing of the mob?

[Ace64]

Hmm...yeah, this IS just a tad hypocritical...but hey, views change right? I'l ignore that for now.
I don't think it's right to place the burden of 'house-keeping' responsibilities on one mod- cleaning up the forum, archiving and all that. Nor is it fair to expect one mod to be 'impartial'- we're human, not robots. Everyone has their own slant towards a particular idea, which, I suppose, is why there is more than one Mod- to balance things out.

Sure, sure, we're all grown-ups here, big kids. If something's wrong, we can take care of it ourselves. But that can happen with Mods just as easily without one. I haven't been here long enough to really notice these 'RPG politics' everyone keeps talking about, but the most Mod interference I've seen is to squash the beginnings of a flame war (heh, prolly in the Lounge.)

Maybe it's me, but I don't really see any reason why we should nix the Mods besides the fact that you assume everyone is responsible. In the past, you've said that Mods should be active leaders, with responsibilities. Now, you say that they are members with extra buttons, and duties. I kind of wonder if the creation of this thread is because you may be elected into Mod-ship yourself. You'd rather Weasel or Dru be elected over yourself, which prolly stems from your own personal reasons, now you'd like to scrap the elections altogether? Maybe I'm way off, but it seems like you may be ducking a possible responsibility here. There are plenty of leaders who aren't Mods, but what if the leaders disagree?

[Heald]

We need mods as they are pretty much the leaders and representatives of the forum. Without mods, there wouldn't be any responsibility and so no one would take the initiative to do anything. I think we have gone past the stage where people had their little 'cliques' and there is a wholly more inclusive atmosphere. In all essense, in the RPG forum at least, mods are just roleplayers like us with extra buttons, but mods actually do stuff. It wasn't until Roy Karrde and Tsukasa stepped up to modship that, as wholly more active moderators than the previous team, that we actually got stuff like the RPG lounge and ASBRPG started. And yes, even if we now have all those things started (and we don't, we still have the ranking system and other stuff to appear, if they ever do, I'm not really sure on the situation) then there still need to be people to edit topics and posts and generally police the place. An example is that if you live in a town that has a police force and no crime. You could say that as there is no crime, we can fire the police and save time and money. Once you do that, all hell breaks loose. I'm not saying that's what'll happen here persay, but the only reason this forum runs as smoothly as it does is because there is a team making it all work.

[Mystic_clown]

Things are going well now. Apart from all this 'RPG politics' crap, all's well with the RPG forums, and I don't think we need to change anything. While I could say why we should keep the mods, I'd just be repeating everything the other's have already said. What I'm trying to say is, why bother going to all this trouble (which could end up with us worse off then we were before) when everything's ok now? Let's just forget about all this political crap and get back to doing what we do best, RP!

Though I am curious as to what'll happen to Plantae's opinion if he somehow got elected.

[Asilynne]

Damn people dont bite his head off hes just making a suggestion, its called an IDEA you know. Its not like hes all like VIVA REVOLUTION!
IMO I dont think its a bad idea. Ive seen many of you make reference to mods being 'members with extra buttons', well, isnt that what they are? Did they completely suck at everything when they were normal members, because they were once, you know. Are Gav and JT worth nothing now that theyre not mods? Will Kalah be worth nothing when shes not a mod? No, they are still the same leader they were when they were mods, and therefore can do the all the same things, minus the message board maitenence. Roy, you made that corny ass topic to celebrate all the things Kalah did as a mod, what were they? Coming up with ideas for the forum, shaping it into what it is today, well guess what? She can still do that, without the title of modship. Anyone with an imagination and drive can make this RPG forum great, it doesnt take a title to do that.
And some of you guys are acting like this is a big threat or something, well its just a discussion thing ok? Im sure its not directing hostility at anyone, its just an idea.
What else did I want to say...oh yeah. Also some people were saying just now that because of Roy and Tsukasa now the RPG forum is back on its feet, well, throughout time leaders often get the credit for what the common people do. Because their names are on it, like presidents, they take all the credit for good things and recieve all the blame for bad things. JT and Gav didnt kill RPG, the people did. Roy and Tsukasa didnt revive it, the people did. Two men can neither kill nor bring to life a whole community, it takes every individual in it to do that.
I dont see what the problem is, unless the people who are complaining still hold out the hope that they will be mods one day and thats why they want to keep it. I mean think about it---Super mods are in place to patrol the whole board. If RPG had no mods it wouldnt be that hard for them to check in every once in awhile (like once a day would be fine) to make sure everythings in place. If something needed to be stickied or archived (which doesnt happen that often) A super mod can be PMed to make it happen. When decisions need to be made about parties and awards, we can make a discussion topic so that every member of RPG has a say.
Is it that bad to think of every member of RPG working together as equals?

[Weasel Overlord]

[color=silver]Well, this topic has certainly sparked off a few interesting points of view, hasn't it?

For clarification,


but to start debating politics, changing your views to suit whatever situation your in, and frankly speaking out of turn

[color=silver]'Tis called pragmatism dude. And it's usually considered to be a good trait in people. It generally means that they aren't so inflexible as to not accept new ideas every now and again. And if you ask me, it seems like all the people who have replied with hostility to this poll could do with a healthy dose of pragmatism.

And I'm interested to know exactly what this 'speaking out of turn' is? Because if you ask me, it seems like you are afraid of a few new ideas, dude, as Asi so kindly pointed out.

Personally, I'm all in favour of dropping the moderation system entirely. As it has been pointed out, mods are merely members with a few more buttons. (oh, and a special board, all to themselves, snigger)
It also encourages rivalry, and often bad-feeling between those who are attempting to become moderators, and it's just not good people.

And just look at the atmosphere around here lately! It could be cut with the metaphorical knife. And this is all since that infamous petition against JT and UC. Look where this has all got us, it's enough to put anyone off being a moderator, let alone even coming to the board. We seem to be more inactive lately than before, when everyone was complaining of inactivity, and personally, I think it's all because of the stupid moderator business. As soon as that petition came up, it sparked off all sorts of bad feeling and tension, and yes, even the dreaded phrase, 'RPG politics.' ><

I know that some people don't want to come back here because of it, and that's a shame, because we're losing some of our best RP'ers to the damn 'politics'.

And there are my probably controversial views. Hooray for politics! *rolls eyes and waits for angry replies*

[Drusilla]

I'm with Ryan on this one... politics seems to be one of those key words that comes up when someone's trying to manipulate the feelings of others... hence politicians being manipulative... am I right or am I right? Come on, guys, this isn't rocket science. We need someone who can keep things going around here; once we had our little revolution, as Asi-chan likes to put it, things suddenly spiked. Why?

THERE WERE PEOPLE IN CHARGE THAT WERE ACTUALLY DOING SOMETHING! *gasp* Oh, no, you mean to tell me that when we have a LEADER who DOES THINGS that we follow? OMG, HOW STRANGE!!111oneone

Being a mod isn't about having power or having your name at the top of the forum index, it's about setting an example and being able to act as a catalyst. If you don't have the people skills to get things done, work with others, listen to the general populace and come up with something that will better everyone, then you have no business being a mod. Modding takes time, effort, and dedication; if you don't have ALL THREE, then don't waste our time.

Having no mod.... well, let's just say I have the image of a multi-limbed chicken running around with its head cut off spouting fire everywhere. Otherwise known as utter mayhem.... Unless you're into that kind of thing, but that's not the point.

The point is that discussing whether or not we need mods is distracting from the issue of importance here: who is qualified?

While it would be interesting to see how having no mod effects things... I don't know, it's just not practical. What about stickies?! I love stickies... if we didn't have anyone to make stickies, I would be very sad and I would probably cry. Seriously. There are practical things that only mods and admins can do, and let me tell you, if we didn't have a mod and we had to go get an admin to do simple things like closing topics, edit record-keeping posts, sticky things, and archiving, the admin team would get really sick of us very quickly. They get pissy about little things....

So, while I'm all for radical experimentation, I don't think that it's really practical... there are housekeeping things that we need mods for. And stickies...

[Emotional Faun Chiko-sai]

What is with the current trend of throwing complaints with moderators straight into the public forum? Are you afraid to go 'against' them without the backing of the mob?

I think he wants the public, aka all us RPers to see it... even the absent ones like me who waltz in here maybe once in three months. To prove that there was no under-the-table action, like what apparently happened at the last big political shenanigan. I believe you spoke out against it.
I personally have no real stand on this topic, and have no right to, having been absent for three months give or take (yes, at first due to laziness, and currently due to politics).
Kudos to Asilynne for her excellent interpretation of the situation, by the way. It is, after all, just an idea. Freedom of expression and etc. Given a trial period you might even like the lack of mods.
*runs for the hills*

[Asilynne]

Well technically we would have a mod, it would just be the Super mods that patrol the whole board, so no It wouldnt be utter chaos. We just wouldnt have anyone with the title "RPG mod". But we would still have unofficial "RPG leaders", those being the people who natually have leadership skills and/or good ideas ^-~

[Drusilla]

Asi-chan, you know how bitchy those supermods are... They give RPG a wiiiiiide berth while on their rounds. As for the admins, the only times I've known of Suzie bothering with checking in on us are times that I personally went to her about whatever the issue was.

I think that everyone (or almost everyone) agrees that leaders are what we need, but I think we still need mods. It's not like the mods are really in charge, they just maintain the forum. I'm not a mod, but I'm creating a database to organize the battle system for ASBRPG. Power is an illusion here, guys... so stop bitching about it and do something. It's not about what privilages you have or not, but what you have to offer to the community. You know, ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country and all that shit.

[Ultimate Charizard]

The 'speaking out of turn' part was misphrased and i apologise for that.
I spoke out against the 'revolution thread' for the same reason as ive spoken out against this one. None of it was brought up to the mods, it wasnt suggested reasonably and asked if there would be room for alteration in the forum its once again been dragged out into the public forum.
Its simply having the common courtesy to take complaints or ideas to those it would initially effect. If the Board itself can manage alone then surely it will only affect the mods?

[Weasel Overlord]

[color=silver]And I know Plantae, and I am sure that he will in fact have brought this up to one mod or another. It seems that you are only arguing as you have a position to lose yourself.

Myself, you, Drusilla and Plantae are all in the running for the position, and both you and Drusilla are dead against this idea.

Maybe the reason it wasn't brought up with the mods (if it wasn't) is because it's only an idea, and Plantae wanted to see what other people thought, in a true democratic style. I know that some people, including you, UC, have complained about things going on behind the scenes, and both of the threads you mention were made in an attempt to stop all of the 'behind-the-scenes' crap.

And yeah. I'm too lazy to continue arguing, but maybe you should question your own motives for railing against this thread... *rolls back to Classics revision*

[Asilynne]

I dont think this is the same as the revolution topic, it doesnt look like its a move to oust someone specifically from power *rolls eyes at how it sounds* I said I wouldnt get in the middle of political bullshit again x.x
Its just an idea, if he went to the mods first youd jump on him for trying to manipulate the board or some shit like that. I mean, shit, look at it. I wouldnt mind seeing how a trial period would go of us not having a mod and just having a super mod make the rounds (which why do they avoid RPG anyway? That makes no sense. Is it because we re well behaived?) but if we did do such a trial period, some asshole who hates the idea would probably make a troll account to spam up the boards, showing how "bad the idea was" and because of how things seem to go, rather than the troll getting banned there would be a public outcry for mods to be reinstated. I think one of the main problems with having mods (and this inst a shot to anyone) especially new mods is that they like having their position so much, and like feeling that important, that if anyone else has any new unusual ideas, whether theyre good or not, they smash them. Its not everyone, its just what Ive seen in my time here. Heck even when Rudy was first made mod he got all caught up in his new mod duties that he neglected other things ^-~
Point is, this is like an opinion survey, and bringing up "why didnt he get mod permission to post this" is kinda the point of this, everyones too reliant on mods and not reliant enough on their own skills. Regular members can be important too, thats why I never make closed signups RPGs, that way everyone can join reguardless of skill, and if some members need help thinking of ideas or learning how to write better the whole cast can help them. We re supposed to help each other, isnt that the "example" the mods are supposed to be setting? lol Damn.

One more for good measure: Shit.

[Drusilla]

[color=silver]
and both you and Drusilla are dead against this idea.

Hey now, I'm not dead against it, I just said that I didn't think it was a good idea...


Oh, BTW: Aruging on the internet... (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v138/wednesdaygirl13/argueoninternet.gif)
(If you take offence to that, it's your own damn fault for clicking it.)

All I know is that I'm here to have fun; I don't know why we have people who are bound and determined to bitch about every little thing. Is the modding getting in the way of your RPGing? If not, do us a favor and stop making a fuss about it. I mean, for the love of everything sacred, people! What are we here for? If you're not here to RP, then get the fuck out, PLEASE! Things are the way they are for a reason; it's how the admin team set things up, and I really don't think they're going to give a damn if the same portion of the RPG forum that's always "trying to change things" has an oppinion about it...

[Weasel Overlord]

[color=silver]I like fun... *daydreams* But yeah, I agree with that one.

I'm sorry if I sounded condescending or anything... I never mean to! I just always end up insulting people by correcting their grammar or spelling or shiz...

Which reminds me. Where did the 'how to make a monster RPG' thread go to? I'm sure some people would benefit from having that waved under their noses... Also, if anyone agrees or whatever, I volunteer to make a nice little; 'How to use the English language' thread... Put my A-level to good use...
And there I go again, *hits self* Stop it!

No seriously... I think it'd help people...

[Asilynne]

and I really don't think they're going to give a damn if the same portion of the RPG forum that's always "trying to change things" has an oppinion about it...


I dont think its a specific portion of the RPG forum that 'wants to change things', for example Roy would have to be in that category for leading the movement against Gav and JT. Its just that in every community there will be those with ideas who want to present them, and there will also be those who dont agree. Look at our country Dru, there is no way in hell we ll ever get everyone to agree on one thing, its all about compromise usually. Our countrys practically divided in half, and though this is just some random thing on the internet, since we pretty much interact with the same people every day, and get to know everyone through our roleplaying, we are like a community, yeah lol
So for goodness sake stop getting so riled up about it x.x Please my goodness.

BTW, I like what you put in your sig! You should make a topic that hooks RPG veterans up with RPG 'apprentices', sort of like a Big Brother Big Sister organization ^-^ I think that would be really helpful ^-~

[Ultimate Charizard]

Ok anyone accusing me of defending this because i may be getting a mod spot back anyway is well out of order.

Im defending this, as ive said before the Mod process is a tried and tested method. Now your saying its not neccesarry only 2 months after the huge upheavel to kick myself and JT out for not doing enough. And you wonder why some people decide to leave? Yes i may be taking this too personally but you put us through feelings of betrayal, arguments with close friend, and generally turning us into public villains and now you turn around and say "well you know all the reasons we came up with then, they dont really matter. Infact inactive mods werent too bad since we had someone handy to do the cleanup"
Everyone jumped behind the idea then, and plenty are doing the same now.
To put it bluntly some people need to make up their minds and stop being so led.

[Plantae]

I am not really supposed to be here, and am leaving for vacation within the hour, so I will be brief.

The word politics is only used once in the entire thing (though I may have miscounted in my skimming my post again) and being that it accurately describes what electing a moderator is, I apologize if I did not fully consider the connotations of such a word.

I do not have the time to address all your points entirely so I will address them briefly and will apologize in advance if I offend anyone.

My hypocrisy seems to come into account. The fact is, if my use of "politics" is bad, so is your use of the word "hypocritical." One is certainly inclined to change one's mind, no?

Secondly, I have already expressed my lack of desire for a moderator position.

I was not trying to imply that any of the moderators we currently have are inadequate. Certainly, Roy Karrde has done a large amount for the forum and no one is into question of Kalah's ability to assist. Tony might not always be overtly there, but he does things behind the scenes. I am well-aware.

The basic idea is that becoming a moderator instills a slight feeling of power and allows one to be overbearing over others, not that anyone has, but that the option is there. It means that a moderator's opinion is always the right one if the moderator so desires (simply because they remain the final say).

I do not wish anyone besides a moderator had powers that are a moderator's to have. Which is, the buttons. I do wish them to have the power to start topics via already set rules and not worry about approval. There is certainly nothing bad about that and not to worry that someone will prevent them from at least trying an idea, even if it is bad. This is a point given to me, by moderators, in the same address to my character limit idea. It amounts to the same basic principle.

Hypocrisy is a weak argument. Just because I am being hypocritical does not undermine the validity of my idea. For that is all it is. Reject it as you are and will, but take it as it is.

The main reason for my changing views is because the two sides are thus: idealism and justified limitation. Neither is wrong, for idealism allows further creativity and freedom but with the possibility of unexpected consequences. Limited limits freedom (though it is subjective as to how much) with less unexpected consequences. I am not sure what side I am on.

Neither is wrong. It is simply a matter of preference. And if this forum prefers limitation, I would much rather go along with it than leave.

[Roy Karrde]

Alright guys I am going to say this, this isn't going to happen. For one we could never get Suzie to demod all the mods and let this section go with out mods like Online Pokemon Battling has. Second with Tony's absence and Kalah on vacation I have gotten a taste of what it is like to mod this forum solo, and it is very hard work. Third and I am going to make this absolutely clear, so I am going to put it in caps lock and bolden. I HAVE JUST GOTTEN OFF OF 7 HOURS OF WORK, AND I HAVE ALOT OF WORK ON ASBRPG FORUM TO DO THIS WEEKEND. I DO NOT! DO NOT! WANT TO CLEAN UP A FLAME WAR. WE CAN DISCUSS THIS IDEA TO IT'S FULL NOT HAPPENING EXTENT, OR I WILL CLOSE IT. ANYONE THAT BRINGS UP RPG POLITICS OR MODS CLOSING THIS WILL SEE THIS TOPIC CLOSED AUTOMATICALLY. I HOPE I MAKE MYSELF CLEAR. Good God, you would think that all the shit Kalah and I have done for this forum for the last few months you guys could shut up and enjoy it.

[VirtualPlay]

Asi-chan, you know how bitchy those supermods are... They give RPG a wiiiiiide berth while on their rounds. As for the admins, the only times I've known of Suzie bothering with checking in on us are times that I personally went to her about whatever the issue was.

That about sums up my take on RPG modship. Well, I'd have said it without the name-calling. None of the Super-mods are active in RPG, so none of them really care about it, and the only time Suzie does anything with RPG is when the mods ask her to, the mods do something wrong, or someone brings an important notice straight to her. Hence we need mods that are specific to RPG and who know what they're doing, and we need more than one mod more than ever right now because of our two new subforums.

Ah, I managed to post without bringing politics into it...and no, that doesn't count. >.>'

[Drusilla]

That about sums up my take on RPG modship. Well, I'd have said it without the name-calling. None of the Super-mods are active in RPG, so none of them really care about it, and the only time Suzie does anything with RPG is when the mods ask her to, the mods do something wrong, or someone brings an important notice straight to her. Hence we need mods that are specific to RPG and who know what they're doing, and we need more than one mod more than ever right now because of our two new subforums.

Ah, I managed to post without bringing politics into it...and no, that doesn't count. >.>'


Haha Mike, I wasn't really namecalling, the supermods know and love me. ^_^

[Asilynne]

Well I guess how everyone is behaiving right now sums it up, maybe the majority of the people on this forum need mods, as they cant even have a discussion about a what if idea without being hostle (and I mean this towards yes, even the current mod, sorry Roy but that hostility just makes me sad.) It would be awesome if we could talk about this in a mature fashion, and Ive tried to state my opinions simply without tearing anyone or their opinions down. But I guess some people arent mature enough so whatever will happen is going to happen.

However Im not changing my opinions on this and I dont expect anyone else to, Will this change anything? Probably not. But it was petrhaps an idea that many of us havent thought about and so, since I and some other people feel there should be a sense of democracy in this forum it was put up for public review to see everyones opinions on it. It would be nice if this could get an honest trial though, without the messy things happening that Ive described below. Whats the harm right? If your so confident it wont work why not give it a trial without cheating? lol

Whatever happens, Im glad I get to say what my opinions on all this is. And no matter what it wont change, I will never let myself or my creativity be limited by mods, I will make reasonable topics without feeling the need to have them approved, if they are reasonable there should be no reason why they are not approved anyway right? And if anyone feels I am in any way being hostle towards mods, Im not, if they dont shove it in my face that their a mod or act like their better than any other member or any such thing, then I have no problem with them as a person. I just dont think they are needed in a place with mature people, so sorry if Im overestimating the RPG community -.-()

[VirtualPlay]

I just dont think they are needed in a place with mature people, so sorry if Im overestimating the RPG community -.-()

I finally see the reason for all this dispute. (And no, Asi, I am not attacking you, you just brought light to the problem.)

MODS DO NOT HAVE TO BE SEEN AS SUPERIOR PEOPLE.

In some places, mods are mods because they're there to be the judges of people within the context of their forum(s). However, mods do not have to be judges. Mods do not have to be the only ones to inspire people either.

Yes, mods are needed in a mature place like this, but NOT to keep the peace or to rule over everyone. Mods are needed to keep the forum in order from those not-so-mature decisions of people. They are there to do the executive actions like stickies/announcements, moving topics, and that kind of thing. They have been privileged with these powers. Just that sometimes power corrupts and mods go bad, which puts them in a bad light. It's this bad light that has brought everyone to be so freakin' critical of what mods say and do.

(Holy crap, two in a row of it being politics-free! Go me!)

[Asilynne]

I finally see the reason for all this dispute. (And no, Asi, I am not attacking you, you just brought light to the problem.)

MODS DO NOT HAVE TO BE SEEN AS SUPERIOR PEOPLE.

In some places, mods are mods because they're there to be the judges of people within the context of their forum(s). However, mods do not have to be judges. Mods do not have to be the only ones to inspire people either.

Yes, mods are needed in a mature place like this, but NOT to keep the peace or to rule over everyone. Mods are needed to keep the forum in order from those not-so-mature decisions of people. They are there to do the executive actions like stickies/announcements, moving topics, and that kind of thing. They have been privileged with these powers. Just that sometimes power corrupts and mods go bad, which puts them in a bad light. It's this bad light that has brought everyone to be so freakin' critical of what mods say and do.

(Holy crap, two in a row of it being politics-free! Go me!)


Your right all the way, and so hopefully once Roy gets some sleep we ll all be able to discuss this civilally. The main problem I Have with mods is people think that you have to be one to enact any sort of change for the better, I dont think this way and therefore I shared my opinion. I think that any decision reguarding RPG should be put down for all RPers to decide what to do, not a clear cut vote for which one sort of thing but as a compromise everyone can live with. That way no one will struggle to win the mod spot as everyone will essentially be equal. But if this is done with mods it should be honest, you mods and formor mods should know what Im talking about. No putting up a 'vote' and then making the real/final desicions yourselves anyway ^-~
So yeah everyone should stay calm, I know most people are. People shouldnt have to be afriad to voice their opinions, ne?

[Bulbasaur4]

[color=royalblue]
Oh... boy... some times I think I should *stay* a moderator just for perhaps the idea that I could help bring some peace amongst the moderators. *shakes head*


Alright, even though I'm still a moderator I am taking this stand a just an RPer. I've seen both sides and I know both sides... but actually, there are no sides so I have no idea what the hell I'm talking about. lol!

I would like to firstly address the comment of Mike that moderators are NOT superior people. Heavens no! If I was a superior person, then the world would explode. Seriously, I screw up so much that I would hate to be deemd as superior because I would think the lesser people would have to eat trash cans in order to be less than me. ... ... okay, maybe that was a big of an exaggeration but you get the point. People are chosen as moderators (well, before we had to do the poll voting, which I was against) because they are on often and show an enthusiasm and respect for the RPG forum. Not because people think they're better than anyone else... because every single role player in this forum brings it to life and contributes!

Also, for crying out loud... Roy Karrde, settle down this instant. This isn't an attack against you personally or any other moderator... this is just an opinion and a rightful one at that. By raising your voice and stating some thing along the lines that you'll, "let this poll stay open" makes people distrust you. By raising your voice and spazzing out, it makes people distrust you. Just take this with a grain of salt... it isn't bad and it isn't a revolution (like many have said).
Oh, and this is the RPG LOUNGE, the rules clearly state that things like this are allowed to be posted without a moderator's approval. That is why we built the lounge... so things like this were not needed to be approved.

I totally agree with those (such as WO and Asilynne) about how the RPG forum should be mature enough to not need any moderators. I personally wish we did not have moderators... but I agree with the fact that we do need them. There are many people who are not mature enough to handle not having a moderator. While there are many worthy and mature individuals who could easily handle not having a moderator and working in harmony, there are also those who cannot and it is those people who force us to have moderators in general. When a leader for anything is needed, without a moderator it could become a complete flame war or a war of some sort where no leader is chosen because so many vehemently fight for it. I've seen it before in real life and online and it is no pretty matter.

Moderators are also useful for their 'extra buttons' and for helping organize a form like ASBRPG. While the MAIN RPG forum could run perfectly well without a moderator, I do think that the ASBRPG would need a moderator or two just to keep topics flowing and to organize the whole thing or to help pick people organize the whole thing. Super mods and Admins don't want to waste their time here and they'd deem it much easier to have a moderator overlooking this than themselves. At least... I think that might be their opinion, but I'm not going to put words in their mouths.

Before ASBRPG, I believed we only needed one moderator. I would kindly like Roy Karrde to not put words in my mouth, for I can speak for myself. When OutlawJT lost connection and U_C was having some vacation, I was the only moderator but I was fine with that. There wasn't really much to do... until everyone suddenly wanted reform. I knew the RPG forum was slow but it was what it was- an RPG forum and there really wasn't much you could do to make it any different. However, with the added RPG Lounge and ASBRPG forum, things are now different and moderators are needed for those two subforums (heavily leaning towards ASBRPG).

I'm also wondering if the admins would allow no moderators for the RPG forum. I suppose we could always ask! ^_^

If you want my solution... here is what I would do, although I'm not sure if people would agree with me.

If you don't want moderators for the RPG forum and if the admins approve, then don't have any moderators for the main RPG forum. If the admins don't approve, then have one moderator for the main forum. Have that moderator also be the same moderator for the RPG Lounge, since... needless to say, this subforum hardly needs moderators.

The ASBRPG forum is our problem. I say for this subform, have two moderators. They will be seperated from moderation of the RPG forum... so this way, they can handle their RPGASB business and the one other moderator can handle his or her own business in the RPG forum.

I rather like a peaceful RPG forum and I think this would help a lot of the... *dares to say it* POLITICAL BULLCRAP!

^_^ Those are my thoughts...

[Hatake Kakashi]

Plantae this is the biggest pile of Hypocritical crap ive ever seen. Back when all the mess started with myself and JT you were one of the leading voices calling out for active moderation, not accepting that its acceptable for a mod to take a backseat and now you change your mind?
The reason for 'approval' of certain threads and other practices have been in place since long before you began posting here. Back in the days of Mike and Ginger they understood that without a few rules things can get out of hand. IE People wanting to start an awards thread when the mods themselves were planning an official one, or somone wanting to set the award categories specifically for them to win (back then some people were that petty).
It got so bad with 'party' threads at one point they came under the approval banner.
These arent rules set up to force control over people, they are neccessary methods developed using a trial and error system.
I dont wish to offend, you sound intelligent (or maybe just good with a Thesaurus) but to start debating politics, changing your views to suit whatever situation your in, and frankly speaking out of turn (again in public instead of going to the mods with your concerns) is uncalled for.
What is with the current trend of throwing complaints with moderators straight into the public forum? Are you afraid to go 'against' them without the backing of the mob?


Actually, it's your job to participate and make sure everything runs smooth wether you're needed or not.

Or you could just cry about it to anyone who'll listen. Please leave that out of here.


As for moderators? I say keep 4. We drop it down to one the next time Roy or whoever is left goes away for a day, we get the situations in the old days. We get people making 30 RPGs with no plot and entire RPGs filled with "UR IDEA SUCKS MORE".

[Ultimate Charizard]

Gee mike how did i guess out of all the posts made so far you would directly attack mine.

I dont remember anyone having complaints about things running smoothly. I remember complaints that i wasnt being an active leader, which now were being told isnt needed.
I certainly dont remember any of this politics stuff back when it was Myself, Jeff and Kalah.

[Weasel Overlord]

[color=silver]I'm guessing the reason he's attacking yours, UC, is because of the fact that you always phrase things in such an inflammatory way. If you weren't so, dare I say it, whiney then perhaps people wouldn't have cause to get at your posts. I mean, the first thing you even mentioned about this post was an insult to Plantae.

And this topic wasn't supposed to be about the old Petition thread, although I can see that you're still bitter about that, since you bring it up almost everytime something like this appears.

I'm not trying to be condescending, patronising or to make enemies here, so please don't take it that way. *shrugs* although I can hardly force you to take things differently, since you appear to enjoy having arguements with almost everyone here...

[Bulbasaur4]

[color=royalblue]
*giggles at WO and starts whining*
What 'bout my idea... my idea... anyone? *whine whine whine whine*
XD

[Weasel Overlord]

[color=silver]snigger...*pats*

Oh, heh, I forgot about that! ^^ Yeah, I think thas a good idea. Admittedly, the Admins might not agree... it'd be chaooss!! Whee!!

But I'm sure I read somewhere that chaos is good for the soul... O.o
Or maybe I didn't...

[Heald]

I miss the good old days, back in 2000 where if you even dared to address a mod without opening your post with, "To the great and powerful lord of the forum," you'd be permabanned. Democracy is like despotism, except instead of one person being wholly in the wrong, everyone is equally in the wrong.

[Ultimate Charizard]

Why is it that no matter what i try im always the one in the wrong?

I repliedas honestly as i could. What i posted was my initial reaction to what i read and im sorry if that bugs anyone but those that know me know im pretty blunt. I dont like false pretenses and hidden agendas. I responded to mikes post as i did because he decided to poke faults at my past mistakes again. Ive got no patience for anyone that will talk to me and call me a friend while im 'in power' and as soon as im demodded decides that things just arent worth trying anymore and fully Blocks me from messenger without another word.

I wont say anything further in this thread as im starting to take things too personal and it appears my debating style offends. For this i apologise and ill leave it at that.

[Asilynne]

[color=royalblue]
*giggles at WO and starts whining*
What 'bout my idea... my idea... anyone? *whine whine whine whine*
XD


Well since everyones afraid to say it, I actually DO like your idea! lol No for real, it sounds very interesting and makes sense ^-^

[Hyperness is a Good Thing]

I think it's a good idea especially if it brings peace to this forum(if that is possible). Since we're more or less, dare I say, STABLE, we won't need so many mods for the main forum? >.< The asbrpg is another thing - since it's relatively new it needs some more work... so two mods specially designated for that would be a good thing
*hides in a deep dark little hole that she keeps specially for these occasions*

[Roy Karrde]

Hey guys I'm sorry for the outbirst earlier. I had 4 hours of sleep, and just gotten home from work, where I found another blister on my foot. We have also been losing out on things becuase the mod community is starting to view this forum as too political. We need to stop this political stuff for a while to allow us to have a more stable image. If we don't we may keep being looked down upon as the most volitle area of the forum and the mods will continue to shy away from helping us. Like what has recently happened in ASBRPG. As for this whole topic I will stay by my stance that we really don't need a change right now, nor can I see Suzie changing it right now. Also since we are going to be getting two new mods in soon. Lets make this the last political debate of the summer. After this, no more asking for stricter rule changes, no more asking for mod changing or stuff. Keep it to RPG, that is what this forum is for. We don't need a image of a 2003 Misc. And with two new mods, and myself relativly new, we don't need to try and stomp out the flames of a flame war this summer.

[Outlaw JT]

First, let me speak from reason. This was posted as an idea for discussion, not as a political motion. Admittedly, making it a poll rather than a plain discussion was a poor and overly aggressive decision. Plantae perhaps phrased some things too strongly as well. No insult or injury was intended, however. Since it has been opened a lot of people have reacted too strongly and passionately to it. In Gav's case I completely understand his strong reaction given how close he and I have been to everything that has gone on from the political standpoint. Other's uber-strong reactions I don't fully understand. Still, there is no need to react so vehemently to this discussion. It was intended as a discussion and people aren't supposed to raise voices and cast blame in a discussion. Everyone needs to calm down and focus on this whole thing as a simple idea. Plantae is as free to post his ideas as we are to post our disagreement but rather than respond out of anger we should simply post our reasoning for believing it to be a bad idea and let others post their reasons why they think it might be worth looking into.

Second, let me speak from my own personal reaction and echo a sentiment Gav put forth. 1) Without ever consulting us a number of you went about publicly villifying us for being inactive moderators 2) Not two months later a number of the same people rally behind the idea that we don't need any moderators?! Rather than thinking for yourselves and developing your own opinions and ideas to try and address the problems the forum is facing you have twice now readily jumped on a bandwagon without any concern whatsoever for those it might effect..... THAT is what the problem with our beloved forum is! If you ask me, as evidenced by this thread, a number of other charged threads, Kalah's retirement, the public sense of ill will between a number of people (some specific some general) I believe that with what started with having Gav and I demodded the forum has traded one serious problem (inactivity) for another (the gigantic political mess the forum is in now)! I apologize if I have offended anyone. This isn't directed at anyone in particular. It is just a general feeling I have.

[Hyperness is a Good Thing]

it's actually rather funny if you look at it from that perspective - we go from DEAD to messed up. I'm quite sure the people who rallied against inactivity didn't have this in mind when they wanted the forum to wake up. Well now it's been awakened with a vengeance maybe?
Should start a poll asking which is preferable - dead-ness or political turmoil. ^_^
but why has it become a "political" thing? I thought this topic was just meant to be a discussion..we should be able to discuss stuff without getting all overexcited right...? >.<

[Chris]

the admin team would get really sick of us very quickly. They get pissy about little things....


No we don't. :(

Trust me, if this forum was left with no moderation, it would go to hell and never return - and not because of regular RPG posters.

[Bulbasaur4]

[color=royalblue]
to help Chris, I will say it....

Spamtastic

[Hatake Kakashi]

I miss the good old days, back in 2000 where if you even dared to address a mod without opening your post with, "To the great and powerful lord of the forum," you'd be permabanned. Democracy is like despotism, except instead of one person being wholly in the wrong, everyone is equally in the wrong.


Hey I was a mod in 2000.

And it was the other way around :P If I didn't phrase a post "To the wonderful and never at fault members of TPM" I was accused of attacking someone and being a jerk.

[Heald]

That wasn't because you were a mod Mike, that was because you were an ass.

:afro:

Woah, check it out! Afro smileys!

But I was a complete fuckwad back in 2000, but then again, everyone was. It was like Hell, if Hell was run by Scientologists.

[Asilynne]

[color=royalblue]

Oh, and this is the RPG LOUNGE, the rules clearly state that things like this are allowed to be posted without a moderator's approval. That is why we built the lounge... so things like this were not needed to be approved.
......



If you want my solution... here is what I would do, although I'm not sure if people would agree with me.

If you don't want moderators for the RPG forum and if the admins approve, then don't have any moderators for the main RPG forum. If the admins don't approve, then have one moderator for the main forum. Have that moderator also be the same moderator for the RPG Lounge, since... needless to say, this subforum hardly needs moderators.

The ASBRPG forum is our problem. I say for this subform, have two moderators. They will be seperated from moderation of the RPG forum... so this way, they can handle their RPGASB business and the one other moderator can handle his or her own business in the RPG forum.

I rather like a peaceful RPG forum and I think this would help a lot of the... *dares to say it* POLITICAL BULLCRAP!

^_^ Those are my thoughts...


Lets be mature and make this what its supposed to be---a discussion ok peeps? ^-~
Anyway, Id like to say that I think Kalah has a pretty good idea here. Think about it--When it comes to number of spammers or flamers (besides this topic because some people cant stay on topic -.-()) The main RPG forum really doesnt have much of that happening. Since its practically self sufficient, 3 mods being in charge of it seems like overkill, as most of the time they will have nothing forum related to do (strictly speaking of the main RPG forum.) Kalah and Roy both brought up the fact that ASB RPG needs a lot of work, and that that work for one person is way too much. So I think one of the pros of Kalahs idea was that the ASB mods would be able to devote all their time to the fledgling ASB RPG forum, and the lone RPG mod can easily maintain the RPG lounge, RPG and the Archive (I assume the Regular RPG mod would be in charge of the archive Kalah?)
In light of the fact that mods are sometimes representatives of the board in the mod forum as Roy has told me, I no longer believe that having absolutely no mods in RPG is a good idea in practicallity, but I do think the 2 ASB mods, 1 RPG mod idea that Kalah said is a very good idea.

What do the rest of you think of it?
Key word is discuss lol ^-~

[Bulbasaur4]

[color=royalblue]
I agree with Asilynne and myself. lol

Yes, and that RPG moderator could also do the archiving... since it isn't demanding either. Basically you get a nice lawn chair, some lemonade and a happy umbrella and you watch RPGs and occasionally lift a finger to do an archive. XD