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View Full Version : New special/attack system... opinions



Elec Man EXE
28th July 2006, 07:05 PM
So, I guess that in the new generation, what stat an attack uses (special attack or regular attack) is going to be based on the actual attack, not simply what type the attack is.

Likely any attack with physical contact will be an attack based stat (since the Elemental Fangs are of the physical type), but does that mean that all indirect attacks will now be special? It doesn't really make sense for something like Earthquake or Rock Slide to be a special attack, your still relying on physical force to throw the rocks (except for maybe something like Lunatone) or physical force of hitting the ground. BUT, if thats not the case and those stay physical, then there are going to be a whole crapload of physical attacks and a lot less special ones.

While this is an interesting idea, I was thinking about it, and its going to severely screw up a LOT of pokemon.

Example 1: Poison types. Almost all of them are physical-based, but I can see most Poison attacks becoming special-based, since they're all projectiles. Thats quite a disadvantage, having your STAB attack using a sub-par stat. I suppose its good for a few (Seviper would be OK, and the Poison/Grass types would rejoice), but a lot more are going to be hurt by it. And Ground and Rock might be in a similar situation.

Example 2: Many special-type pokemon rely on the elemental punches for attack variety. Some, like Alakazam and Ampharos are completely out of luck without those elemental punches, and they'll likely become physical. Same deal with quite a few pokemon that use Crunch as another special-based attack.

Example 3: Some pokemon that are very strong, but lack good STAB attacks using their primary attacking type are going to get a huge boost. Gengar comes to mind, since both Poison and Ghost are currently physical, but there's a good chance they become special. An already formidable pokemon becomes excellent.

Not to mention that the change is going to mean the complete reworking of almost every pokemon's moveset, which really hurts the idea of transfering all your pokemon over to the new generation from Ru/Sa/E/FR/LG. Especially with limited TMs and breeding moves.

Obviously, I'm a bit worried. Any major change to the system has a chance of going sour, and though I hope it doesn't, I can see quite a few ways this could really cause problems.

Number1ChanseyFan
28th July 2006, 11:32 PM
[color=magenta]I agree with a lot of the points that you bring up. I definitely don't think that this would be a good idea, I think that the whole physical/special attack system should be left alone the way it was. Since Diamond and Pearl are going to be compatible with the Advanced Generation games, it makes even less sense. I mean, why bother trading your trained Pokémon over to the new games if their EVs/Movesets/Personalities/etc... are going to be so messed up that they won't be an asset anymore? Pokémon has made some good changes over the years, such as allowing Pokémon to hold items, giving them natures/abilities, adding the Dark and Steel types, etc... But I also haven't been crazy about a few things, mainly the new EV system that was introduced in Ruby/Sapphire... but I definitely think that this new special/physical change would be very damaging/frustrating. I hope that this information is wrong though, but I did read the same article that you read, and I interpreted it the same way. I guess we will have to wait and see.

Jeff
29th July 2006, 12:39 AM
The 4th generation is a new generation, which means a new metagame. This is the major change that's going to really differentiate this generation from the others. So what if this means that *gasp* you have to train all-new pokemon, there wasn't a problem with it before. The thing is that we will now likely have DP tradeback moves for RSEFL. And we can also use old TMs on our pokemon in DP (that's assuming that the TMs will be changing again, it would be weird if you trade a TM back or forward and it becomes a different move). GS screwed some pokemon over with the special split but we coped, and we'll cope again.

+conspiracy+
30th July 2006, 06:50 PM
Let's take a look at some pokes who gain from this change...

The most obvious would be Sneasel: Crunch (if it gets it) and Ice Punch become physical giving it two solid STAB attacks that run off its awesome Attack stat, not to mention it gets an evolution... and a new attack Shadow Claw

Tyranitar: well boah already flirts with uberness, but with Crunch becoming physical, it just makes this thing that much harder to take down... add dragon dance and fire punch in there and, well, what more can i say

Salamence: jebus, good pokes just getting better: Dragon Claw becomes physical... Dragon Claw + Fire Blast = no weaks, add in Earthquake and Dragon Dance and people just beg for mercy...

Dragonite: well, see above I guess, not to mention this guy gets the elemental punchess as well

Flygon: crunch, dragon claw, fire punch... amazing attack.. jebus, this guy is already a great choice bander, and now gets another STAB move to fun off of its attack along with earthquake

Metagross: yup, gets elemental punches, doesnt fear skarm anymore

Kingdra: endure flail set gets better with waterfall being physical

Medicham: Pure Power elemental punches gg

Azumarill: ice punch + waterfall + huge power gg

Kingler: STAB Crabhammer running off its attack..

Crawdaunt: STAB Crabhammer + STAB Crunch + FAT Attack = Kingler still being UU

Well, this is just speculation of course, new pokes + new attacks could make all of this mean nothing, and maybe a change in base stats will also cancel out some of these points

Elec Man EXE
31st July 2006, 01:52 PM
A lot of good comes from it, true. But take a look at that list.... EVERY pokemon on that list is physical.

Physical pokemon are already better in a lot of cases, due to the Choice Band and the fact that Swords Dance is available on many pokemon, whereas things like Growth or Tail Glow are not. Not to mention that there are loads of pokemon with over 115 base attack, but only a few with over 115 base special attack.

These changes seem to further boost physical pokemon, while often screwing up special pokemon. Unless there are going to be a lot of new special attacks introduced (based on the list of whats been revealed so far, not the case) special attack pokemon are going to become novelty pokemon in a lot of cases.

Physical Pokemon will be getting the elemental punches, crunch, waterfall, all great moves an offering great variety.

Sure, Shadow Ball will probably become special, which will help Psychic types, but its not a very common attack on special attackers. Sludge Bomb might, but most pokemon that learn it are physical oriented (other than grass types). Signal Beam, Silver Wind, same thing (except for a few like Venomoth and Masquerain). I suppose they all get Hyper Beam, its too bad Hyper Beam sucks though.

Phoenixsong
1st August 2006, 01:46 PM
People seem to keep forgetting that new attacks WILL be released... every generation there seems to be about the exact same number of attacks as Pokémon, if not more (at least, there were 251 Pokémon and 251 attacks as of GSC)... that means that we'll probably end up with 500+ total attacks; plenty of room for more Special moves even if we haven't seen any yet. Notice that most of the movesets that have been revealed are for more physical Pokémon; what do we know about Mime Jr., Buizeru, Pachirisu, Cherimu, etc? Little or nothing. So they might have good special attacks; it's too early to say.

There is also the fact that this is not a blind change made by Nintendo just stabbing in the dark; obviously they KNOW this is going to require the overhaul of many Pokémon. If they know that, then, well... I'm pretty sure they'll do something so that Pokémon like Alakazam and Ampharos don't get completely shunted aside. You can't pass final judgment on whether or not the system works until we've seen more of it.

Personally I like the changes. You have to admit, it simply makes more sense. Hyper Beam is not physical no matter how you look at it, and things like that have always irked me. And it might not suck so much in DP anyway... even now you could use it (if you REALLY wanted to, and most people wouldn't) with Follow Me. Special type Hyper Beam + Alakazam + tank Clefable with Follow Me = dead-whatever-Alakazam-was-aiming-at. I know that's nowhere near as good as Focus Punch/Follow Me and all that, but until we find out more you'll have to make do. And as I said, how can you prove that they won't make a new move/ability that makes Hyper Beam better? It's too early to be complaining. Whine about how the system is ruined after you can prove it's been well and truly ruined.

Poryhedron
1st August 2006, 03:21 PM
Hyper Beam is not physical no matter how you look at it, and things like that have always irked me.
Meh, I've always imagined the energy of Hyper Beam being the user's pure Attacking Power, like a beam of force if you will. That's why the recharge turn; because the pokémon just projected all of its attacking potential out of itself. With that interpretation it still makes sense for Hyper Beam to run off physical Attack score.
What concerns me is how Nintendo will keep the balance. Making moves that pokémon like Alakazam have traditionally relied on switch categories might only be solvable by altering the pokémon's Base Stats. As in, poof, all of Golem's best attacks (Rock Slide, Earthquake, maybe even Explosion) are now Special, and Golem's Special Attack sucks...better crank up Golem's Special Attack Base Stat to compensate! Of course, Golem can also learn Flamethrower by TM, so suddenly he's a much better Flamethrower-user than he used to be, and everything shuffles again...

Phoenixsong
1st August 2006, 03:55 PM
They can't pull off the switch properly if the games are backwards compatible... that would wreak havoc with the Pokémon's stats. Imagine: Alakazam currently has a base SpAtk of, what, around 130? You got a good nature and a good IV, so it's got an SA of 405 (or whatever) after you're done training it. In Diamond and Pearl they alter Zam's stats just so it can still use the punches, so its Atk becomes 130 and its SpAtk drops. You trade your Zam from Emerald to Pearl and bang! Its base Atk and SpAtk just about flip; not only does that undermine any movesets you would have made, it also totally screws your training over. You put 252 EVs into its SA and end up with an SA of like 150something... my friend, that sort of thing is NOT going to happen.

No, like I said: they'll resolve the problem by giving the Pokémon new movesets for DP. You can still raise good battling teams only in DP, you know... you don't HAVE to transfer them from RSEFRLG. If you want to send Emerald Pokémon or whatever over then either send the new hatchlings or just modify the moveset/training style if you can. If that means you can't use your precious Battle Frontier team, well... sorry, but you didn't design it for DP in the first place. Use it for what it was meant to be used for, because I'm sure your Pokémon are still great at that, and start over or whatever for DP. Considering that there are new Pokémon you might want to include in your team anyway, you might as well.

+conspiracy+
1st August 2006, 05:41 PM
People seem to keep forgetting that new attacks WILL be released...



Well, this is just speculation of course, new pokes + new attacks could make all of this mean nothing, and maybe a change in base stats will also cancel out some of these points


:D

mr_pikachu
1st August 2006, 07:51 PM
I think more moves will keep their same designation than you guys seem to believe. Rock Slide, Earthquake, and Explosion... frankly, those still seem like physical strikes to me, even if they don't involve the user's body making contact with the foe. Projectiles/range attacks are used, but if they don't have some sort of elemental designation (Ice, Fire, Grass, Water, Electric, etc.) then I don't see what would make them Special. From everything I've seen in the past, unless some sort of element is used, a type isn't Special (with the obvious exception of Dark, meh). I imagine that will largely play into the evaluation of attacks.

Now, I can see some of the Special moves you mentioned becoming Physical. The elemental punches come to mind, as do some of the Dark moves like Crunch (about dang time, in my opinion). Some Ghost moves may also become Special to compensate. And I can actually see Hyper Beam being Special, to be honest. I've never thought of it as a physical force; it's always seemed to me like an extremely wide, massively powerful laser of sorts. Now, that means it might not have an elemental designation. However, it would be a form of pure energy. Energy attacks, obviously, are quite different than moves which simply affect solid masses, which is why I think that and other beam moves (Superpower comes to mind, if I remember the animation correctly) could be Special.

Obviously this will require a lot of moveset changes, but I don't think that EVs will be wasted. Pokemon that have EVs for the old system will simply need to switch some of their moves to work with the new designations. It may be a little frustrating, but like the change in the Special stat from RBY to GSC, I think we'll get used to it eventually.

Jeff
1st August 2006, 11:01 PM
The way I see it, if a move is used with physical force, wheter the pokemon is beating its opponent with an appendage or hurling rocks at it, the move will be physical, and if the move requires some special energy (like Hyper Beam, Superpower, or Shadow Ball) it will be special.

One pokemon I can see benefiting from this is Jolteon: good special attack and great speed, and it gets Shadow Ball. It used to be that Jolteon's only special attacks were Electric, but if Shadow Ball does indeed become special, that means it can finally get a varied moveset, something that Electric types have had a hard time getting in the past.

frylock
2nd August 2006, 12:07 AM
I think the elemental punches will stay special, why else would they make the fangs(which we know are physical)? I know it doesn't make sense, but a lot of things in Pokemon don't really make sense(why don't the Rockets just beat you up and throw you out?)

On the poison thing, I don't think they'd just codemn an entire type just because it makes more sense for it to be special.

Phoenixsong
2nd August 2006, 12:17 AM
Uh... yes, the fangs are a toned down version of the punches. But the punches, in turn, are toned-down versions of Flamethrower, Ice Beam and Thunderbolt, which will remain special. The punches, which require physical contact, will not.

Jeff
2nd August 2006, 01:20 AM
Contact is not the deciding thing though, if it was, then Rock Throw would be special despite using physical force to throw the rocks. That wouldn't make much sense really, and the whole idea of the Physical/Special reassignment is to make things make more sense.

With that said, the elemental punches do use physical force, so they will likely be physical.

+conspiracy+
2nd August 2006, 06:46 AM
I think the elemental punches will stay special, why else would they make the fangs(which we know are physical)? I know it doesn't make sense, but a lot of things in Pokemon don't really make sense(why don't the Rockets just beat you up and throw you out?)

On the poison thing, I don't think they'd just codemn an entire type just because it makes more sense for it to be special.


they will be physical.. if it is a contact move in RSE, then it will become physical.... but other attacks such as rock slide and earthquake like you guys metioned will probably still remain physical as well

Razola
4th August 2006, 07:15 PM
More variety in Pokemon. We'll see special based rock-types or Physical based Psychic types.

It sounds pretty groovy. I can't believe they are making big changes for once.

rinku
7th August 2006, 07:38 PM
I expect we'll be dealing with three dimensions:

* Type. Still the most important point because of STAB, resistances and vulnerabilities.
* Attack/Special Attack. Based on whether the attack is more physical or more energy. Might even get renamed.
* Contact. Based solely on whether the attacker comes into physical contact with the target or not.

Most current elemental attacks will remain Special Attack, Non-Contact. Most current physical attacks will remain Attack, Contact. A few will change, though I'd not expect any of the existing Contact/Non-Contact designations to change, since they all seem to make sense already.

Hopefully, the expanded display space will mean all this stuff will be in the pokédex. Hmm... should have a go at translating some of the screenshots, but they could easily have a seperate attackdex with expanded info.

Heald
7th August 2006, 07:42 PM
Hopefully, the expanded display space will mean all this stuff will be in the pokédex. Hmm... should have a go at translating some of the screenshots, but they could easily have a seperate attackdex with expanded info.They could, but that would involve them revealing some of the hidden numbers, which is rational, but when it comes to the developers of the Pokemon games, they do completely the opposite of what is rational.

Jeff
7th August 2006, 09:12 PM
Base stats for attacks and accuracy percentages were revealed starting with Pokemon Stadium. I do believe effect percentages were revealed as well, but not 100% sure on that one.

rinku
10th August 2006, 02:29 AM
Y'know... I've not seen any convincing report that does confirm that the old "contact" and the new "physical" are seperate. They may well have changed some of the moves that were previously "contact", but you'd think that the vast majority of these would be the same, since it all seems to be based on attacks that do or do not involve the attacker touching the target.

May be only the two dimensions after all.

Jeff
10th August 2006, 10:58 PM
I haven't seen anything that confirms that they won't be separate.

And consider rock throw:
Physical? It does use physical force so I'd have to say yes
Contact? Absolutly not.

Phoenixsong
10th August 2006, 11:12 PM
I dunno about everyone else, but all the times I said contact I was including ANYTHING physically contacting the opponent, whether it be a fist or a rock... anyway.

It's been confirmed that this is the case: any attack that requires anything physical, from physically hitting a foe to using Earthquake to strike, is physical and will use the Attack stat; any attack that does not require ANY sort of contact will use the Special Attack stat. Anything else, from non-damaging moves like Tail Whip to strange moves like Counter and the new move Anticipate, is considered "Other". I'm too lazy to post the link, so go stare at Serebii or someplace for a while and you'll find it.

Phew... Earthquake is saved! Yay! Although an Earthquaking Alakazam would have been fun... ah, well, it's for the best.

Jeff
10th August 2006, 11:17 PM
Yes, but at the same time Earthquake and Rock Throw do not involve the Pokemon touching its opponent so these are not subject to abilities such as static. So, the old contact and the new Physical/Special will be diffent things. And if such moves are changed so that they will be subject to such abilites, then that wouldn't make sense.

Edit: According to this (http://www.serebii.net/diamondpearl/battlechange.shtml), they will be different.