Rushdie gets honour; Muslims get burqas in a bunch

[Heald]

Behead everyone who says Islam is violent! (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/6766569.stm)

Yup, once again Muslims around the world have taken to the streets with signs so badly spelt they make two-year olds look like English scholars.

For some reason, my government has decided to give Salman Rushdie, who is some author that Muslims have a beef with, a knighthood.

A bunch of Pakistanis have called this a conspiracy to 'hurt the feelings of Muslims'.

Yes. Because the UK has nothing better to do than plan better ways to hurt the feelings of Muslims.

Frankly, the sooner Muslims stop acting like cavemen or apes with their loud squawking and effigy burning, the sooner people might take them seriously.

[Weasel Overlord]

Hey, he's not a shitty author actually. He was on our text list for Literature and I quite enjoyed his Sea of Stories.

But yes, talk about over-reacting. He was issued with a fatwa when he published the Satanic Verses and received death threats and assassination threats and everything.

[Heald]

Corrected.

[darktyranitar]

Ah yes. And here in Malaysia, we got a big riot because a woman is converting from Islam to Christian.

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2006/6/25/focus/14641732&sec=focus

No comment.

[Heald]

Idiots are funny. Especially when they form a religion and start worshipping a giant black cube.

[darktyranitar]

What did you say...?

It's Kaabah, btw. And no. It's not idiotic, and it's not funny.

[Heald]

Don't worry, I don't really have a beef with Islam, I just think there are some loud ones who ruin it for the rest of us.

[Whisper in the Wind]

Religious Affairs Minister Mohammad Ejaz ul-Haq

On Monday Mr ul-Haq caused uproar in parliament when he was accused of inciting violence during a debate of Sir Salman's knighthood.

"If someone commits suicide bombing to protect the honour of the Prophet Mohammad, his act is justified," he said, according to Reuters news agency.

It worries me to think that someone with an opinion like that is in a position of power. It also worries me that a notable number of people are acting out over this. It does comfort me to know that their parliament was in an uproar that he expressed such an opinion however.

Regardless, I have no idea who Salman Rushdie is and what he wrote* and what this loud shout is about, but perceived offence by a guy who's gotten knighted is a reason for violence? It's one of those situations where I'm thinking "Grow the hell up" in the direction of those protesting this.

Edit:

*Well, I looked up "The Satanic Verses" on Wikipedia and following their citations, apparently, way back when, this was the hoo-hah:

Iranian Muslim leader Ayatollah Khomeini has issued a death threat against British author Salman Rushdie and his publishers over the book Satanic Verses.

His message said: "I inform the proud Muslim people of the world that the author of the Satanic Verses book, which is against Islam, the Prophet and the Koran, and all those involved in its publication who are aware of its content are sentenced to death."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/february/14/newsid_2541000/2541149.stm

And apparently, that "death sentence" still stands: http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=5768

According to Wiki:

As a result, Hitoshi Igarashi, the Japanese language translator of the book was stabbed to death on July 11, 1991; Ettore Capriolo, the Italian language translator, was seriously injured in a stabbing the same month, and William Nygaard, the publisher in Norway, survived an attempted assassination in Oslo in October of 1993.

But that's unsourced so I can't take that for sure yet (although a glance at google seems to confirm it).

Like I said previously, it amazes me to think that they're behaving this, although digging further into it disgusts me. This issue has my interest but only because it has my disgust.


Ah yes. And here in Malaysia, we got a big riot because a woman is converting from Islam to Christian.

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2006/6/25/focus/14641732&sec=focus

No comment.
Also seems crazy. Do you really need to run through all that just to get your religion changed? =/

[Drago]

I like the topic title. Hehehe... burqas.

Now then, I don't see how people with a bad reputation hope to make themselves look better through flag burning, mass protest and picket signs, but it then occured to me, they probably don't care what I think anyway. Filthy Christian dog that I am.

"If someone commits suicide bombing to protect the honour of the Prophet Mohammad, his act is justified"
-Pakistan Religious Affairs Minister Mohammad Ejaz ul-Haq

Yup. Loverly.

[darktyranitar]

Ah yes. I admit, Islam image is torn badly this day, with those suicide bombers and whatsnot.

But. This. Is. Not. Overreacting.

This is Koran we're talking about here. Not just some book written by a man. Koran. Words from Allah revealed to prophet Muhammad.

Ah, you should look up upon the transalation of Koran sometimes. It has a lot of aspect in it: scientific, economic, family. Yes. In something that comes about 1400 years ago.

I tell you, this is the second time I heard people messing up with Koran (the other day, some indian lady says here in my college says that she will step upon a Koran if we bring it to her (and no, we're not dissing her religion or anything, mind you; just some stupid lady that is unsatisfied that the Muslim malay has more bus customer) ).

Islam is not just some religion you can play with. No. Heald, yes, I understand. I don't like those extremist Muslim too. But. You said "when they form a religion and start worshipping a giant black cube," and... well, that is not nice, you know? It's as if you're adressing to the Islam as whole.

And to WitW... well, here's another article for you to read (and others too; to ponder upon this matter): http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2007/6/19/courts/18054567&sec=courts

Come on... let's read and think.

True... Islam is being put on trial... and yes, it's the work of some of the Muslim that make it come to this... It's sad, really. See what the Muslim youth are up to now. Rape. Abortion. Black Metal. Prostitute.

(Okay... out of topic: So when we speak of their act, they'll say "it's a person right, man; this is a free country!" So then it should be alright to smack them and say "the right to smack you; this is a free country!")

Er. Okay. Right. Out of topic. Yes. But really... Islam is not violent (do you know that the word Islam comes from the word 'salam', which means peace?). It's just that we have those extremist, not the mention the hundred different faction like the shii'te (which is still Islam, yes, though they apply some things that are actually unacceptable in Islam)

Sigh. Life of Muslim at the end of time.

[Silver Ledian]

'There's always somethin' wrong with them Muslims isn't there?'

My brothers response to a news report earlier about a new plan of attack in Afghanistan. I found his ignorance quite funny, and yet there's a bit of truth behind it.

[Roy Karrde]

You might want to add in Silver that, that is not your actual responce, that way you don't get flamed.

Anyway to throw my opinion in, there are over a billion Muslims in the world, most of them are law abiding, peace loving, people. The problem is that Islam is like Christianity two hundred or three hundred years ago. It needs to get past the riots when someone draws a cartoon of Muhammad, or issuing death threats to anyone who speaks out against Islam, or refusing to work with people that have alcohol or have pork.

Really no one can really speak out against Islam with out thinking back to how their own personal religion delt with the same situations in the past. Islam has the hard problem of having to grow up, and become a modern day religion, in the age of the internet. That shouldn't be a excuse, and many in Islam will have to quickly learn that acting like a idiot will do more damage than any artist, than any public speaker, than any writer. But as I said before, all religions have gone through the same growth and came to the same realization that many muslims will have to come to.

[firepokemon]

Religion is the roots of all evil. That includes scientologists and athiest crap that basically is religion too.

[Roarkiller]

A little slow on the uptake, because I don't really come to misc anymore, eh. But seeing as how dark-T is pretty much the only muslim who has so far been contributing to this topic, thought I'd throw in my few cents' worth.

-On the Salman Rushdie knighting Issue:

As far as that BBC article suggests, he is being knighted as recognition for his works. Note the plural. Satanic Verses isn't his only published book, and it's widely known that his books, even after excluding Satanic Verses, are well accepted and lauded in the literature community.

How the selection for knighting is done I don't know, but at this point, it doesn't matter. All things considered, unlike his controversial book, his knighting has totally nothing to do with Islam in any way. Which means at this point, the pakistans are making a mountain out of something less than a molehill. If anything, it's just a rekindling of a 18-yr old grudge.

-On the Pakistan's Minister's comment:

To be honest, his comment is a far cry from the truth, so much so that I wonder how he became the one in charge of Religious Affairs.

Killing those who threaten Islam in any way is justified; even I can vouch for that. Unfortunately, with suicide bombing, two other issues crop up: the killing of innocent victims, some of which may even be other muslims, and suicide itself. Killing the innocent is a sin. Suicide is a MUCH bigger sin; hell, it's somewhere in the same level as worshipping another god.

In my opinion, his justifying suicide bombing is only by stretching the truth (by a LOT) and ignoring other truths.

-On the book and consequent/parallel events

Here I'm not going to contest: the portrayal of Islam (note: the religion, NOT the people itself) in a bad light can, by Islamic law (or to my understanding), justify his/her death, UNDER THE CONDITION THAT INCITING RIFT IS INTENTIONAL. While I don't know the contents of the book (it's banned here), IF it is true that it portrays Islam in a blasphemous way intentionally, then Rushdie, as well as those with the same intentions, deserve their head to be hunted.

On the cartoon of our Prophet, it is Islamic law that there should be NO PORTRAYAL WHATSOEVER of any prophet, angel, or god for that matter. Unfortunately, I don't think the artist has any intention of inducing rifts. All the same, to give him an award for "free speech" is not only insensitive; it is stupid. Whoever gave away that award deserved the sledgehammer to his head.

-On the "black cube" (Kaabah)

Get this through your heads people; we DO NOT worship that black cube. The purpose of that cube (which isn't even a cube in the firstplace) is to give muslim a point to congregate, a universal direction to face if you will. You face that direction, BUT you still worship Allah.

FYI, those who worship the Kaabah is put in the same group as those worshipping Satan.

On changing of religion

Technically, the punishment of converting out of Islam is death. The reason behind it is to prevent that person from pulling more muslims out of their religion, which is harmful to the religion.

It is not, however, a set rule per se; the said punishment is dependant on the case. After all, the punishment for stealing is to cut of that person's hand, yet even our prophet very rarely uses that sentence.

Simply put, it's all a case-by-case basis.

On the said Malaysian article, I don't see any cause of an uproar; the changing of her religion is, and should, be decided by the Islamic court, as is the law in Malaysia. If I had to give a similar example, it's like a shoplifter trying to bring his case to the high court. It's just a no-contest to the girl.

On muslims of the world in general

It's true; we need to grow up and move forward.

Unfortunately, you people never seem to realize that the people who are usually responsible for this kind of riots/suicide bombing/whatever are almost always from third world countries or developing countries still playing catch-up. I mean c'mon, think about it. Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Indonesia.

Secondly, the problem with these people is that, most of the time, they are not exactly the most knowledgeable about their own religion. While this is true for all religions (including Christians, yes), Islam is thrown into the spotlight because of extensive media coverage. If this kind of media coverage existed in the middle ages, Christianity would most probably be put in the same light as well.

IN GENERAL, however, you will never see the difference between a muslim and any other person you meet in the street. We'll express discontent, yes, but we still have common sense. We're all human after all.

In the words of my teacher: questions about religion should ALWAYS be CONFIRMED with one who is extremely knowledgeable of the religion. There's just no point in asking a guy on the street, he's not knowledgeable enough, and may even give a wrong answer.

Extremists exist in every religion. You don't have to look far; there's the KKK and Thuggee cult, for want of examples.

It's just that it's our turn to be in the spotlight.

[Zcade0]

I have a very few things to say here:

1. Islam's punishments are from a long time ago when everyone basically did that. these beliefs cannot be used today. anyone can see that.

2. causing "rifts" is very poorly defined there. someone asking a question in front of Islams about Islam showing even a LITTLE doubt could be considered "causing rifts."

3. atheism isn't a religion.

4. do what I do. just stop caring. look at the world, realize we're screwed no matter what religion you follow, and focus your attention on surviving.

[DarkTemplarZero]

Look, every religion has its handful of extremists who make their entire religion look bad. Christianity has it's Falwells, Bushes, etc., Islam has it's Osama Bin Ladens, Atheism has its Richard Dawkinses (no offense, I respect him, but he needs to be a bit more tolerant of other people), so on and so forth. You cannot say that one group of people is "evil" because of the actions of its handful of maniacs.

Zcade, first of all, atheism is a religion, because the act of denouncing the existence of a supreme being is an act of faith, considering the fact that nobody can prove beyond a reasonable doubt any religion's point of view. Second of all, I find your "just don't care" philosophy very disturbing. As a person who's spent his last four years trying to get fellow students to care about other people, I can't stand apathy. If you want to spend your life on WoW or whatever you do, go right ahead, but then you'll look back at all the opportunities you've had and regret it.

[Roarkiller]

1. Islam's punishments are from a long time ago when everyone basically did that. these beliefs cannot be used today. anyone can see that.

Define "that". And a lack of argument of why our beliefs are invalid makes your argument invalid. Especially since our beliefs are pretty much the same as almost every other religion.


2. causing "rifts" is very poorly defined there. someone asking a question in front of Islams about Islam showing even a LITTLE doubt could be considered "causing rifts."

You need to read my post properly.


4. do what I do. just stop caring. look at the world, realize we're screwed no matter what religion you follow, and focus your attention on surviving.

I'm not even gonna to waste my energy into how wrong that sounds. DarkTemplar can have the floor on this one, he seems to be on the right track.

I'll just say this though: it's that kind of thinking that causes all these problems in the first place.

[Roy Karrde]

Here I'm not going to contest: the portrayal of Islam (note: the religion, NOT the people itself) in a bad light can, by Islamic law (or to my understanding), justify his/her death, UNDER THE CONDITION THAT INCITING RIFT IS INTENTIONAL. While I don't know the contents of the book (it's banned here), IF it is true that it portrays Islam in a blasphemous way intentionally, then Rushdie, as well as those with the same intentions, deserve their head to be hunted.

This is why Zcade and others make statements saying that Islamic Punishment is outdated. Killing some one, just becuase they have a hard on against your religion only furthers their point, and proves it in the ultimate way. Now I'm Pro-Death Penalty, I believe that people that do the ultimate acts of evil, deserve to die. Deciding to kill some one becuase of something they write or say, just becuase it harms your religion. A religion made up of over a billion people. It is beyond wrong, and really any religion that has policies like that, where death becuase of free speach, should look inward for change, before pointing fingers outward.

edit

Technically, the punishment of converting out of Islam is death. The reason behind it is to prevent that person from pulling more muslims out of their religion, which is harmful to the religion.

Just figured I would add in this, that any religion that wants to kill to keep their members in, isn't worth it in the long run. I mean Islam does have near a billion members, who is going to miss five or six? I mean really how does that hurt the religion if people have a difference of opinion and decide to leave?

Now I want to add, that I have nothing against Islam, one of my best friends is a Muslim and I care for him very much, I am even intrigued about the religion. But c'mon the two punishments above are insane in this day and age.

[darktyranitar]

You know, there are some Muslim who also said that those punishment are unsuitable for this age. Like my country. The government refuse to apply the hudud law (Islam law) saying that this is a multi-racial country; and no, others won't be too happy to be ruled under the Islam law, the law is a bit violent (thief get their hands chopped etc).

But look at history. The prophet Muhammad have managed to run the city of Madinah - multi racial city - under the Islam law, and everyone abides by the law.

Which goes to show that most people nowadays think that Islam law is a thing of a past. "So let's stick with the western-based law instead." Which also goes to show that they do not have faith in the religion.

Oh, and you think a thief getting his hand chopped off is violent? Imagine this: you were sitting around idly when you realize that your money was stolen. What would be your thought? It'd be something among the line of "If I find that guy, I'm gonna kill him." Right? Also, it goes to teach others to think a hundred time before stealing (take a look at Mecca; people would leave shop unattended during solat, and items would still be there when they get back)

[Roy Karrde]

Which goes to show that most people nowadays think that Islam law is a thing of a past. "So let's stick with the western-based law instead." Which also goes to show that they do not have faith in the religion.

Well I wouldn't say people dont have faith in their religion, just that laws have to evolve with the situation. I mean in Christianity it was against the law to eat Meat on a Friday, or if a woman was caught as a Prositute she was stoned to death, and you could sell your daughter into slavery. Islamic and Christian laws were created in a time before we had better jails and psychiatric help.


Oh, and you think a thief getting his hand chopped off is violent? Imagine this: you were sitting around idly when you realize that your money was stolen. What would be your thought? It'd be something among the line of "If I find that guy, I'm gonna kill him." Right? Also, it goes to teach others to think a hundred time before stealing (take a look at Mecca; people would leave shop unattended during solat, and items would still be there when they get back)

A common useage of the same example is the daughter rape one. If you found out that you're daughter had just been raped and were put on the jury of the man who did it, you would want him hung, you would want him to be beaten to death. Its a natural human reaction. But that is why we do not allow family members on juries.

To try and explain my point, is that now days people can buy insurance for their store to get their money back, now maybe not in the Middle East, but that area is quickly becoming more up to date. Not to mention that back when Islamic law and Christian law was written, no one had heard of Cleptomania. Some people actually cannot help but steal, it's a mental disfunction for them. Should they have their hand chopped off for a mental disorder? Its a hard question to answer I know, but people that make laws have to think of that.

[darktyranitar]

Ah, then there's the witness stuff... like in the stoning to death case. Did you know we need 4 witness - honest, male witness - that see the said stuff done in front of their eyes if we were to execute the punishment?

Reminds me of a story. A few years after the prophet Muhammad passed away, Saidina Umar - the leader at that time - had caught one guy having sex with a woman (who is not his wife, of course). The guy looked up, and exclaimed something among the line "Umar! What is this? Do you know that the Quran said that peeking someone else is a terrible sin?" (funny, coming from someone who has just sinned himself).

And so Umar said, "May you repent," and left. Not because he was ashamed, but it was because being the only eyewitness in the case, he can't do anything about them (even if he was the leader of the country - and a judge too).

Just a little filler.

[Roy Karrde]

Ah, then there's the witness stuff... like in the stoning to death case. Did you know we need 4 witness - honest, male witness - that see the said stuff done in front of their eyes if we were to execute the punishment?

Ahh but then again what makes a honest male witness? Why can't it be a female? Really it just irks me as possibly leading into what in US History we call the Salem Witch Trials. Basically in the early 1600s in the small Christian Community of Salem in the US, the punishment for being a witch was death. So two pre teen girls thought it would be funny to play a trick on a mean woman they did not like and act as if she had cast a spell on her. Falling Ill in her presense, saying she was causing them to shake, say they can feel her eyes on her and so forth.

Since the girls were thought to be pure and honest, they hung the woman. The two girls realized the power they had over the community, and basically began to act out and finger any man or woman that pissed them off. In the end 14 Women and 6 Men died. Becuase the society was following Christian Law, and believed the girls were pure, innocent, and honest.

[Mewtwo-D2]

You know, the Bible has a ton of stuff in it too, and yet people burn it, defecate on it, and make statues of the Virgin Mary covered in porn, or display a crucifix submerged in urine. What do the Christians do? Start letter-writing campaigns. This is why I say Christians are not violent or fearful- just some of them are loud and annoying. I say this as a Christian myself- some leaders of various parts of the church are as annoying as all get-out. But nobody is being murdered.

Face it, no one else owes your religion any respect. No one owes you any respect. Respect is earned, not owed. The Muslim community in the modern world needs to accept this- they can not be considered as anything but barbarians if they cling to barbarism. Am I saying all Muslims are barbaric? Not at all- most Muslims are lovely people. But the imprisonment and sometimes execution of rape victims in Pakistan is barbaric and has no place in the modern world. The beatings of women who are not "dressed properly" in Saudi Arabia are barbaric and have no place in the modern world. Rioting being the response to any offense is barbaric and has no place in the modern world. There needs to be loud Muslim outrage each time barbaric lunatics use the Koran to justify some horrible act. Seriously, you'll get much farther in the world the more you distance yourself from the people using your religion to justify their bloodlust.

Remember that imam in Australia who said rape victims had no one to blame but themselves because 'they were pieces of meat left out to tempt the cats'? People like that should be isolated somewhere so they can return that place to the Stone Age, and leave the rest of us alone. How about the Taliban executing women who were caught speaking to a man who wasn't in their family? Where are the fundraisers to stop the mistreatment of women in Muslim countries? I had a friend who was a missionary, and she was not allowed to talk to anyone or go anywhere in the country without a man present, lest she be beaten or worse. Hell, I went to high school with a Muslim girl who had to go into hiding because a snow storm made her spend the night at a female friend's house. Her father and brother wanted to murder her for disgracing the family. Let there be some more widespread outrage about those dangerous psychopaths.

Also, how is it in any way justified to murder people who disagree with your religion? Was the Prophet that insecure that he just had to kill anyone who questioned him? Imagine if Mormons or Scientologists did that. Murdering people in the name of your religion is NEVER justified, and I'm highly religious myself! I've researched Islam and read a good portion of the Koran, and I'll admit right now I have no love for it as a religion or as a political system. Are you justified to kill me because I personally have a lot of qualms with the Koran, or is it only if I come right out and say that I have a lot of qualms with the Koran? Is it okay for me to express privately that what I read in the Koran often disturbed me? How about if it was just my study of history that disturbed me and not what I read in the Koran? I have nothing against Muslim people, except the dangerous crazies who want me and everyone not exactly like them dead in the name of Islamic Dominion. Much in the same way I have nothing against Hindus or Buddhists or Shintoists or Pastafarians. I only have a problem with you worshipping whatever you want when you are willing to kill me over it.

As for the Free Speech Award- it's his right to say whatever he wants, offensive or not. The only problem would be if it was taxpayer-funded. Then he has an obligation not to offend the people he has forced to pay for his work. But if Christians can manage not to riot over depictions of our most sacred images covered in cow dung and porn (taxpayer funded- they were FORCED to pay to have their most sacred objects desecrated), Muslims can manage to express their anger in a way that does not involve bloodshed over a few cartoons (privately funded). You have to wonder if they have no concept whatsoever of irony. Rioting and murdering in reaction to something that suggested they were violent. Go figure.

Again, this is not against individual Muslims- I'm not going to try to convert you. This is me, privately saying that I believe people do not have the right to murder in the name of religion. It was wrong when Christians did it 400 years ago, it's wrong when the Muslims are doing it now. This is also me saying that Muslims are not going to improve their global PR unless they speak out against the extremists in their religion. Imagine if Jerry Falwell had called for a death sentence against Richard Dawkins. People would be screaming from the rooftops about barbaric Christians, and most Christian leaders would instantly say 'The Bible does not say ANYWHERE that you can kill people who disagree with you! Falwell is a looney bird!' He would probably have been arrested. Can Muslims really expect a different reaction? It's not okay when an imam makes a death call against someone for insulting Islam, because Islam is not existing inside a vacuum. Like it or not, it's part of the world now, and if you expect to get anywhere you can't act as if the rest of the world has to follow Sharia law. If we in the West wanted Sharia law, we would've implemented it. If you want Sharia law, keep it to your own countries.

[Weasel Overlord]

Face it, no one else owes your religion any respect. No one owes you any respect. Respect is earned, not owed.

I'd just like to ask... what happened to people just having respect for others? I was brought up to respect other people, other religions, races and sexualities, and it bemuses me when people have a complete lack of respect for others. It doesn't cost you anything.

Or, OK, maybe it does. It costs the effort of being nice.

I don't understand why every single topic in this bloody board turns into a huge argument. So other people don't agree with you. So bloody what. If you don't agree with someone else, ignore them instead of getting all worked up about that fact. If I got angry every time someone disagreed with me, or disliked me because of something I believed in, I'd spend a HELL of a lot of my life being continuously angry.

And if everyone had to spend time earning the respect of other people, we'd never get anything done. I think respect should be a more valued trait nowadays, and only when people do heinous things should that respect be removed. Just because someone's not the same religion as you, doesn't mean you shouldn't respect them anyway.

I have no religion. If anything, I'd class myself as an Existentialist or a Buddhist, but I certainly don't believe in God, or Allah, or whoever. That fact does not stop me being utterly fascinated with other people's religions.

So how about you lot stop your frigging tedious arguments and just leave it alone. Cos as we've seen in so many other threads, it'll never end. People just keep on justifying their religions or beliefs to everyone else. It's your BELIEF. They don't need to be justified to every bugger else who doesn't believe the same.

[Mewtwo-D2]

Oh, trust me, I have no problems with treating other people or other religions with respect. I have no problem with common courtesy- in fact, I was raised to treat everyone basically the same. It's why I don't throw my trash on other people's property or protest in front of houses of worship. But there's this misconception that you must automatically respect people who have done nothing to earn respect. Everyone deserves to be treated equally. But don't you treat those who have earned your respect a little differently? Just being honest- I respect my father, so I treat his opinions with more weight than I would some random person I had just met. I wouldn't tell the person I had just met that they were an idiot unless they were really doing something to lose the right to common courtesy.

Courtesy and respect are different things. I don't agree with various other religions, but I treat adherents with the same courtesy I expect them to show to me and members of my religion. I don't believe people who choose to follow whatever other religion are stupid- I just have disagreements with their teachings, which is why I follow my religion and not theirs. I'd never say that everyone in the world had to be Christian. I'd never say that nobody in the world should be Muslim. But I am going to get upset when people who have not earned a measure of respect from me demand it. I owe people the treatment I would want. I do not owe their opinions more weight if I don't know them personally or if they have not demonstrated expertise in the subject. I respect Stephen Hawking's opinions on the universe more than I do the opinions of Stan the delivery guy at the local pizza parlor. Is that wrong? I have no particular love for Salman Rushdie, but it's his right to say whatever he wants and not be threatened with death for it. Do I respect him? Not particularly. Would I treat him politely if I met him? Yes.

Last year my best friend of 13 years broke up with me because I did not respect her fiancee. I had always treated him with courtesy, but I lost all measures of respect I had gained because I found out he thought hitting women (including my friend) was okay, he thought it was okay to break promises to her, he thought it was okay to cheat on her, he thought it was okay to spread rumors and gossip about people, and he thought it was okay to throw tantrums when people 'didn't give him the respect he deserved'. He deserved no respect from me or from anyone else. He was a large, violent toddler who believed that his feelings and opinions were worth more than everyone else's. As far as I'm seeing, it's the same situation here. Demanding special treatment for one religion's views is saying that the members of that religion are better than every one else, and that that religion is better than all others. If all other religions must put up with criticism, then so must Islam. That's only being fair.

[DarkTemplarZero]

Roy/Mewtwo: Just about every major religion is big on executing people when interpretted literally (interestingly enough, the Catholic Church is against the death penalty, shows you how immutable the word of God is, eh?). Christianity and Judaism believe that cutting the hair on your temples is punishable by death. It's all a matter of interpretation. There is nothing wrong with Islam as a religion, only the handful of people who take it to the extreme give it a bad name, same with every other major religion.

Mewtwo: A certain respect is owed to everyone. If I were to walk up to a random person and slap them in the face, I guarantee you you'd think I was a maniac, but yet this person who I don't know hasn't earned my respect, does that give me the right to disrespect them? No.

[Mewtwo-D2]

Courtesy: a courteous or considerate act or expression.
Respect: esteem for or a sense of the worth or excellence of a person, a personal quality or ability, or something considered as a manifestation of a personal quality or ability

People deserve courtesy- they earn respect. That's the difference. I never said you should walk up to people and slap them or spit in their faces- that is not courteous. Respect is given to people who have done something meritting it. I have had no to little respect for many people, but I treat them the same as I treat anyone else. However, I give their opinions and feelings no particular weight. There are times when I only respect someone as far as a particular feild is concerned. For example, I think that Truman Capote was a horrible person and a poor excuse for a human being. I have no personal respect for him. But I have great respect for his writing talent. If I met him (assuming he wasn't long dead) I would act the same way to him as I would to any other stranger, save for perhaps expressing admiration for his literary talent.

Also- I have to point out that you don't treat anyone who disagrees with you on any level with either respect or courtesy, DTZ. So you're kind of arguing against yourself by saying everyone deserves automatic respect.

[DarkTemplarZero]

Wrong, Mewtwo, I just don't treat YOU with respect because you have proven yourself to not be worthy of my respect.

I like that definition of respect. You think that a person is worth nothing until they prove otherwise? Not surprising from a person who fantasizes about killing people. Not that I'm complaining, I think it's kinda kinky, like in a whips, chains, and torches kind of way ;) Ah M2, how I love you. Hehe that rhymes. I'll write a sonnet next time.

[pokemasterfrank]

Heh. I think I'm an idiot for getting into a fine argument about religion, but...


Ah yes. I admit, Islam image is torn badly this day, with those suicide bombers and whatsnot.

But. This. Is. Not. Overreacting.

I don't know. Wanting someone to die because he wrote a book? I mean, I've hated some books in my time, but I've never wanted to kill someone :P I don't really have my religions memorized or anything, but I'm pretty sure Islams one of those "don't kill anybody, love people" ones :P


This is Koran we're talking about here. Not just some book written by a man. Koran. Words from Allah revealed to prophet Muhammad.

This one is for all of the people talking about Bibles, Korans, etc. I'm too lazy to quote all of you. Okay. So God comes down and tells you to write a book. Okay. It's kind of like, say, a Japanese person hands you a book and asks you to translate. Okay. Some of it wont translate well. Some of it, they have a word for something, you guys don't have, etc. Muhammad was still a man. John, Luke, etc. were men. You can't say, the Bible is special and 100% true because God was inspiration. Koran is absolute because Allah revealed it to him. Authors still influence the writing.


Ah, you should look up upon the transalation of Koran sometimes. It has a lot of aspect in it: scientific, economic, family. Yes. In something that comes about 1400 years ago.

>_< Not to be insulting, but I didn't get what you were trying to say the first few times I read this. Also, I don't see the point? So the Koran had some thought put into it. If I remember correctly, some asian texts had the same deal.


I tell you, this is the second time I heard people messing up with Koran (the other day, some indian lady says here in my college says that she will step upon a Koran if we bring it to her (and no, we're not dissing her religion or anything, mind you; just some stupid lady that is unsatisfied that the Muslim malay has more bus customer) ).

Okay, that's messed up, but not for the reason you're probably thinking of. It's messed up that she wants to piss off the Muslim community, but it's also messed up that you'd be insulted by some idiot who wanted to step on a Koran. It's just a book. In the end, it's just some paper bounded in a cover. I don't know, but I'm pretty sure the message within is the most important part. It may represent something or some other nonsense like that, but symbolism and crap doesn't matter if you're going to kill someone for it.

I always this sort of thing was horse shit. Oh no, they're burning a cross. Oh no, flag burners. Oh no, someone wants to defame our religions text. We should kill them. That's fucking stupid. Isn't religion about encouraging people to do good things during their life? Not killing each other.


Islam is not just some religion you can play with. No. Heald, yes, I understand. I don't like those extremist Muslim too. But. You said "when they form a religion and start worshipping a giant black cube," and... well, that is not nice, you know? It's as if you're adressing to the Islam as whole.

Note 1: He probably was. And Roarkiller's response (y) Also, didn't know that even existed.


And to WitW... well, here's another article for you to read (and others too; to ponder upon this matter): http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2007/6/19/courts/18054567&sec=courts

Come on... let's read and think.

True... Islam is being put on trial... and yes, it's the work of some of the Muslim that make it come to this... It's sad, really. See what the Muslim youth are up to now. Rape. Abortion. Black Metal. Prostitute.

The Muslim community isn't the only community with those problems...


(Okay... out of topic: So when we speak of their act, they'll say "it's a person right, man; this is a free country!" So then it should be alright to smack them and say "the right to smack you; this is a free country!")

Eh? o_O


Er. Okay. Right. Out of topic. Yes. But really... Islam is not violent (do you know that the word Islam comes from the word 'salam', which means peace?). It's just that we have those extremist, not the mention the hundred different faction like the shii'te (which is still Islam, yes, though they apply some things that are actually unacceptable in Islam)

I'm not going to point out the irony of the fact that it seems like you advocate the reaction of demanding someone to die because he wrote a book that goes against the Koran and saying the root of Islam is salam which is peace.


Sigh. Life of Muslim at the end of time.

Don't be so melodramatic :P

EDIT: I'm not saying that you can't be offended by that guy's book. But being offended =/= "lets lynch the guy"

[darktyranitar]

Right. I'm pulling out from this thread.

[Blademaster]

I'd just like to ask... what happened to people just having respect for others? I was brought up to respect other people, other religions, races and sexualities, and it bemuses me when people have a complete lack of respect for others. It doesn't cost you anything.

Or, OK, maybe it does. It costs the effort of being nice.

I don't understand why every single topic in this bloody board turns into a huge argument. So other people don't agree with you. So bloody what. If you don't agree with someone else, ignore them instead of getting all worked up about that fact. If I got angry every time someone disagreed with me, or disliked me because of something I believed in, I'd spend a HELL of a lot of my life being continuously angry.

And if everyone had to spend time earning the respect of other people, we'd never get anything done. I think respect should be a more valued trait nowadays, and only when people do heinous things should that respect be removed. Just because someone's not the same religion as you, doesn't mean you shouldn't respect them anyway.

I have no religion. If anything, I'd class myself as an Existentialist or a Buddhist, but I certainly don't believe in God, or Allah, or whoever. That fact does not stop me being utterly fascinated with other people's religions.

So how about you lot stop your frigging tedious arguments and just leave it alone. Cos as we've seen in so many other threads, it'll never end. People just keep on justifying their religions or beliefs to everyone else. It's your BELIEF. They don't need to be justified to every bugger else who doesn't believe the same.

THANK YOU.

Seriously, why do posts like this keep getting ignored? You debaters are doing nothing but going around in circles and shooting the same half-assed arguments in different words back and forth at each other... JUST DROP IT ALREADY.


And if you all feel like ignoring this post like you all did with Weas's and my last one in the Gun Control topic, then please at least do me the courtesy (which seems to have lost a lot of its meaning in this debate) of giving me a simple answer to this question first:



DOES ANYONE ACTUALLY ENJOY THESE DEBATES?




And now, before I get banned or flamed or whatever for... whatever... I'm leaving. Good night.

[darktyranitar]

No. Don't like it at all.

Right. Sorry to be a bother. I'm leaving.

[Roarkiller]

I thought that's why people join debate clubs? Because they enjoy debating?

Okay, jokes aside.

Anyway, missed more than a couple of points, and yes Faiz, you would do good to pull out. Not to sound insulting, but some points you brought up were... redundant. Again, sorry.

If someone can gimme me a summarization of the points "debated", I'll be happy to give a proper explanation.

Anyway, to cover a few points:

-On punishments and Islamic law

This may come as a surprise, even to you muslims out there. Muslims are always under the Islamic law.

NON-MUSLIMS ARE NOT. I repeat. NON-MUSLIMS ARE NOT.

It's optional for the rest of the world. That was, and still is, how Mecca and Madinah is ruled. Just so people don't get the wrong ideas. Non-muslims are free to do whatever they please as long as they do not, in any way, hurt or threaten the Islamic community in any way. And last I checked, coming up with your own law wasn't against the rules.

Secondly, you people obviously don't even have a grasp of basic law. A thief does NOT have to have their hands cut off. And similarly, as I have mentioned before (yes I have, so read my 1st post again), dropping out of Islam does NOT mean you have to be killed. And no I don't approve of lynching Rushdie just for writing a book. Like somebody said, it's stupid.

Have a thorough understanding on the Islamic law before stomping on it.

Third, on the ruling of rape. Well, put it this way; a lot of muslims don't even know that there's a separate ruling for rape, and that it does NOT fall under the same ruling as adultery; it's not even under adultery in the first place. That should be clear enough to you guys, no?

About that needing four male witnesses to prove adultery. Reason for the number's pretty simple: you don't want false accusations, simple as that. And note, these four need to be fully trustworthy men, not just any Tom, Dick or Harry. Unfortunately, I myself don't have a proper understanding on this ruling, and I ain't gonna pretend I do, so I'll leave it at that.

Fourth, on Islamic law being outdated. Uh, FYI a lot of rulings in the Islamic law isn't set in stone. It can be changed, just like any other rulings in any other country. Bet you guys don't know that.

On the remaining that ARE set in stone. Think about it: thievery in America earns you what, six months in jail? Thievery in an Islamic country has the MAXIMUM sentence as chopping off of the thief's hands. Which country would you feel safer in?

I think you guys are forgetting that the point of having stiff punishments are as a deterrant, rather than actually carrying it out. Any lawmaker will tell you the same.

If you need a good practical example of stiff punishments, anyone caught vandalising can be sentenced to jail AND caning in my country. No, no fine. Go look up the infamous Michael Fay case.

-On examples of radical muslims

Um... pretty much supports my point on how the people are to blame, not the religion.

And uh... nothing else to say, really. Just wanted to make a point. Yeah. o_o

On a somewhat related note, I don't think courtesy and respect has anything to do with this topic. Strictly speaking, these two apply to anyone and everyone, regardless of race or religion. So like, no point arguing about it.

----------

Umm... I think I covered all I remembered. Problem with these topics are, posts get pretty damn long.

Anyone wanna fill me in? SUMMARY, please, not a thousand-word essay.

[Roy Karrde]

Non-muslims are free to do whatever they please as long as they do not, in any way, hurt or threaten the Islamic community in any way.

The idea of what threatens or hurts the Islamic Community seems to be very very broad. Alot think that a cartoon or a book seems to harm the Islamic Community.


Have a thorough understanding on the Islamic law before stomping on it.

Remember that 99% of the people on this board do not have a understanding of Islamic Law, what we understand of it comes from the posts in this and otehr topics. Consider that when posting.


Fourth, on Islamic law being outdated. Uh, FYI a lot of rulings in the Islamic law isn't set in stone. It can be changed, just like any other rulings in any other country. Bet you guys don't know that.

Good to know it isnt set in stone, I was a bit confused on it after talking with Dark Tyr.

[RedStarWarrior]

You have to remember that the Muslims that are causing problems tend to be extremist and don't follow Islam. I do understand the Qur'an, but I have to agree that a lot of those posting against Islam do not, though many Muslims apparently do not as well...heh.

Why the fuck would I have any of you little bastards banned for flaming?

[Zcade0]

>< I duck out for a day or two and the debate ends. I actually DO like these debates, because if people don't start just yelling for the sake of it, they can be pretty enlightening on how others think and other cultures.



Zcade, first of all, atheism is a religion, because the act of denouncing the existence of a supreme being is an act of faith, considering the fact that nobody can prove beyond a reasonable doubt any religion's point of view. Second of all, I find your "just don't care" philosophy very disturbing. As a person who's spent his last four years trying to get fellow students to care about other people, I can't stand apathy. If you want to spend your life on WoW or whatever you do, go right ahead, but then you'll look back at all the opportunities you've had and regret it.



First off, I'm going to again say that Atheism isn't a religion, it is the LACK of one. Atheists don't care either way (well, most of them).

Second, I said I didn't care about religion. I NEVER said I was apathetic. Don't judge people's personal lives.


On Christians being anti-death-penalty:

The Bible said that everyone's life is valuable, seven nonbelievers. So the Christians haven't killed anyone in the name of religion since the Crusades.


Those things said, I'm done. All that needed to be said has been said. Hey, if you think this is bad, we should start a debate on which religion is correct.

[Roarkiller]

WARNING: QUOTE OVERLOAD


The idea of what threatens or hurts the Islamic Community seems to be very very broad. Alot think that a cartoon or a book seems to harm the Islamic Community.

That's why I said most muslims aren't even aware of this fact. And actually, it does harm the community, but maybe not to the point of murder.


Remember that 99% of the people on this board do not have a understanding of Islamic Law, what we understand of it comes from the posts in this and otehr topics. Consider that when posting.

That's why I said not to stomp on our laws without a clear understanding in the first place.


Good to know it isnt set in stone, I was a bit confused on it after talking with Dark Tyr.

That's why I said... oh wait. Sorry. Never mind. NEXT!


>< I duck out for a day or two and the debate ends. I actually DO like these debates, because if people don't start just yelling for the sake of it, they can be pretty enlightening on how others think and other cultures.

2-1 against Blademaster. Join the club people, lol :P

On a side note, this is where my inability to make small talk becomes useful; it shuts most people up.

And on a more related note, Islam is a lot more similar to Christianity than people realize. Or bother to realize.

[Gavin Luper]

I'm posting here once, and it's in agreement to what Blademaster and Weasel Overlord have said.

I think this is an utterly aimless thread now. Debates are a very good way to express your opinions and hear other people's - when there's actually something to give an opinion on. What is anyone in here actually arguing about? If it's a recent issue, give your opinions on that. If it's "religion" ... you're all more or less banging your heads against a brick wall: it's pointless and it's just going to end up giving you a sore head.

[Mewtwo-D2]

That's why I said most muslims aren't even aware of this fact. And actually, it does harm the community, but maybe not to the point of murder.


But we non-Muslims are not obligated to not offend Muslims. Muslims are not obligated not to offend Christians, athiests, Pastafarians, pagans, or Buddhists.

Therefore, the most you can do is protest or start letter-writing campaigns. Imams calling for death to anyone who says the slightest thing against Islam is not acceptable in the modern world. Imprisoning or murdering converts is not acceptable in the modern world.

Was I offended when an athiest submerged a crucifix in a jar of his own urine? Hell yes I was offended. To have someone so disrespect such an important figure in so many people's lives was offensive. BUT he does not deserve to die for it. He does not deserve federal funding to produce sacreligious art- so I wrote a letter to the government saying how unfair it was that I had to pay someone to desecrate an object I hold sacred. They never answered back, so I took my beliefs online, where I tell people that it is inherently unfair to take people's money by force to pay people who are going to desecrate their sacred objects.


Seriously, if an idea can not hold up to any intellectual competition, it is not a worthy idea. If people are afraid to voice their concerns or disagreements with Islam, all it's doing is making them privately think that it's a house of cards- a complete sham ready to fall apart at the slightest blow.

[pokemasterfrank]

I'm posting here once, and it's in agreement to what Blademaster and Weasel Overlord have said.

I think this is an utterly aimless thread now. Debates are a very good way to express your opinions and hear other people's - when there's actually something to give an opinion on. What is anyone in here actually arguing about? If it's a recent issue, give your opinions on that. If it's "religion" ... you're all more or less banging your heads against a brick wall: it's pointless and it's just going to end up giving you a sore head.

I agree. Like I said, I felt extra stupid for tossing my two cents in. Though, I think everyone's arguing debating about something different now.


But we non-Muslims are not obligated to not offend Muslims. Muslims are not obligated not to offend Christians, athiests, Pastafarians, pagans, or Buddhists.

Therefore, the most you can do is protest or start letter-writing campaigns. Imams calling for death to anyone who says the slightest thing against Islam is not acceptable in the modern world. Imprisoning or murdering converts is not acceptable in the modern world.

Was I offended when an athiest submerged a crucifix in a jar of his own urine? Hell yes I was offended. To have someone so disrespect such an important figure in so many people's lives was offensive. BUT he does not deserve to die for it. He does not deserve federal funding to produce sacreligious art- so I wrote a letter to the government saying how unfair it was that I had to pay someone to desecrate an object I hold sacred. They never answered back, so I took my beliefs online, where I tell people that it is inherently unfair to take people's money by force to pay people who are going to desecrate their sacred objects.

Wouldn't it be nice if we didn't offend each other though? I mean seriously, we get pissed off at each other for the stupidest things :/ Probably, the problem is that we take ourselves waaaaaaay too seriously :P

So the guy submerged a crucifix in a jar. I'm sure he meant to insult or damage whatever the crucifix symbolizes. But hell, all he did was piss in a jar and put some piece of wood or steel in the shape of a cross and a man hanging from it. Everyone forgets that in the end, it's just a piece of wood or steel or whatever. Whoever had the bright idea of making those things probably made it as a reminder or something - not "OMGZORZ TIS IS IMPOTANTS!!!! IT R EVERTYhIGN I BELEEVS""; it's just a mnemonic, if you will.

I'm atheist. I went to a Catholic school. The school encouraged tolerance of others, etc, etc, blah blah blah. After a few history classes and world religions class, I figured that people stress too much on who they believe in and not what they believe in. People go, "I believe in God", "I believe in Jesus", "I believe in Allah." But they don't follow the teachings of whoever or whatever. They don't get the meaning. So what if they piss on a cross? In the end, it's just a piece of wood. To have it mean anything more would make it an idol. Sure, it serves as a reminder of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross, etc, but what's more important - his message to love each other, including enemies, or some inanimate object.

Books (or religious texts, if you insist), crosses, flags, whatever...they're just objects. No need to get flustered over these things.

EDIT: Not nitpicking your argument, btw - at least not just yours - it was just the most readily available example.

[Roarkiller]

Actually, disrecpecting the Quran is a pretty big sin in Islam :) Not that it would matter for non-muslims anyway, but just a heads up. We don't treat it as "just a book", but as a container for God's words.

Did you know that the only way to get rid of a Quran, or any part of it (printed in the newspaper, for example), is to burn it completely, then scatter the ashes into the sea? And even that is heavily frowned upon.

[mr_pikachu]

Actually, disrecpecting the Quran is a pretty big sin in Islam :) Not that it would matter for non-muslims anyway, but just a heads up. We don't treat it as "just a book", but as a container for God's words.

Good point. As an example of that, several years ago McDonald's held a campaign to show that they were conscious of cultures around the world. But in the process, they angered a lot of Middle Eastern countries and the Muslim community as a whole.

See, one of their ideas was to print national flags from countries around the world on their bags. This was fine in theory, except that one of the flags (possibly Afghanistan's, although I'm not certain) had some text from the Koran/Quran on their flag. It was considered highly sacrilegious to put the text of the Koran/Quran on a paper sack and throw it in the garbage, as the words were still considered the words of God.

Yeah. Just thought I'd mention that.

[DarkTemplarZero]

Zcade: Then they're not quite atheists, an atheist is someone who is convinced that no supreme being exists, a nontheist is someone who believes the issue of whether or not one exists irrelevant.

And pokemaster frank, I agree with you wholeheartidly, but unfortunately that's not human nature. It's easier to take the path of loving an inanimate object, the object is simple, it can never do anything to you, but actually caring about other people is beyond most people.

[RedStarWarrior]

Atheism is a religious belief. Atheists either do not believe in a supreme guardian or a supreme creator, but it doesn't mean that they do not believe in a deity. That's a common misconception. The origin of atheism allows for them to believe in a god or gods, but to deny those deities of specific roles, such as being the creator of the universe (i.e. God exists, but didn't make everything) or being the guardian of the universe (i.e. God created the universe, but is now dead). Unfortunately, the definition of 'atheist' has been quite misunderstood for some time, leading to often incorrect definitions to prevail.

Roarkiller, unfortunately, extremists go against the teachings of the Qu'ran everyday and they still maintain followers.

[Roy Karrde]

Just wanted to get this back on topic, two car bombs were almost detonated in Britain today, they would have killed thousands if they had exploded. Isnt it about time that the British Police go into these radical mosques in Britain that teach Jihad and hatred, and break up the place?

Edit: It appears these bombs were in reaction to Rushdie's medel.

[Roy Karrde]

Not to double post, but its been reported that a flaming car has been rammed into a British Airport.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42446000/jpg/_42446966_airport3_203.jpg

[Roarkiller]

Roy. Edit. No doubles.

Though I never heard of that thing about it being related to Rushdie. Y'know, stuff like this make me wonder how the even figure out who's responsible for what and why. I mean half the time they don't even seem to have any evidence on the culprit, and I don't see how they can say the why when they don't even have the who.


Roarkiller, unfortunately, extremists go against the teachings of the Qu'ran everyday and they still maintain followers.

Aaand I fail to see where you're going with this.