The Russia/Georgia Conflict

[mr_pikachu]

This was taking up so much space in the Daily News thread that I figured it deserved a separate topic.

For those of you who don't already know, Russia recently attacked Georgia (no, not the one with Atlanta), which was once a part of the Soviet Union. This attack is widely believed to have been unprovoked - it broke a ceasefire treaty between the two countries - and Russian forces remain in Georgian territory despite worldwide criticism of the apparent "land grab."

The tiny nation of Georgia has mounted resistance against the invasion, but they're simply overpowered by the Russian army, which has virtually total control over the South Ossetia region. Georgian leaders have offered a new ceasefire treaty, but Russian leaders refuse to sign it.

The Russian government recently said they would begin pulling out of Georgia on Monday; thus far they have made no such moves, and are now apparently ceasing cooperation with NATO (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080820/wl_nm/russia_nato_norway_dc).

This situation is getting a lot more interesting, and a lot more dangerous. You know the drill... discuss.

[Magmar]

I'm about to attack Georgia, the one with Atlanta, because of the idiots at the Weather Channel who didn't see this shit coming that are headquartered there, so people in Florida were just prepared for a "weak tropical storm" and lo and behold, it demolished my parents' neighborhood.

Back on topic, Russia is about a bajillion times bigger than Georgia. And honestly, why do WE care what happens there? It's not our business, unless we live in Georgia or Russia. If Georgia asks for help, maybe we'll bitch at Russia a little, but I'm sick of the fucking world jumping around giving "aid" when their own citizens are poor as shit.

[mr_pikachu]

And honestly, why do WE care what happens there? It's not our business, unless we live in Georgia or Russia. If Georgia asks for help, maybe we'll bitch at Russia a little, but I'm sick of the fucking world jumping around giving "aid" when their own citizens are poor as shit.

Good question. The answer is that Georgia has asked for help. (What else can they do against a superpower nation?) Furthermore, Georgia has been an ally of the U.S. for quite awhile. When an ally asks for help, you want to do something. Yet, you'd rather not take action against Russia for exceedingly obvious reasons. Hence the problem. Russia's not making things easier, essentially flipping off the rest of the world.

Oh, and by the way... US, Poland OK missile defense base, riling Moscow (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080820/ap_on_re_eu/poland_us_missile_defense)

Well, we're officially involved. Let the fun begin.

[Mikachu Yukitatsu]

We here in Finland should be more worried, we have actually been in wars against Soviet Union in the past. Talvisota (The Winter War) 1939-1940 and Jatkosota (The Continuation War) 1941-1944. After that, our country had to do what big brother said, we had to keep a very good relationship with Soviet Union.

Many Finns still reject NATO just because they are afraid of how our eastern neighbour would react.

Now as for myself, I think the war in Georgia is just another conflict, and all we can hope is that it doesn't grow bigger. Sweden just quit military ties with Russia and that tells us something. Anyway, I thought World War III would begin when the terrorists attacked WTC and Pentagon, but it didn't.

[Jeff]

Well, the U.S. and Soviet Union were on opposite sides of conflicts throughout the Cold War and we didn't wipe ourselves out. I was honestly more worried about fighting Al Qaeda since they had already proven that they could do major damage to us. Russia on the other hand had nearly 50 years and, as far as I know, didn't lay a finger on US soil. But then again, Russia does seem to lack any sort of sanity right now so who knows where this is going to go.

[mr_pikachu]

U.S. demands Russia leave Georgia "now" (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080821/ts_nm/georgia_ossetia_dc)

Funny how quickly one day becomes ten. It's hard to trust any pullout announcement at the moment... on the other hand, Russia has enough military power to deter anyone from engaging directly for all but the most serious of international offenses. Nevertheless, this stall tactic by Russia is sure to inflame passions around the globe.

[Roy Karrde]

Meanwhile...

Russia has blocked Georgia's main port city (http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D92MPRJ01&show_article=1)

While they are rolling tanks back home, digging trenchings and building fortifications in key areas in Georgia is not really a good sign. And now Russia is also threatning Poland for signing the missle defense shield. Russia is quickly losing any good will that they have built up in the last 20 years.

[mr_pikachu]

Just in case anyone thinks that this conflict has minimal worldwide ramifications... Oil jumps $5 on US-Russia tensions, sliding dollar (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080821/ap_on_bi_ge/oil_prices).

As for the recent Russian actions, they've shown hostility in just about every direction. Attacking, occupying, and taking control of Georgia... ceasing cooperation with NATO... threatening Poland and the U.S... and breaking their pullout promise. I said this before, but Russian leaders have basically flipped off the rest of the world and taunted, "What are you gonna do about it?"

[Heald]

This is starting to frighteningly mirror Nazi Germany's occupation of Czechoslovakia. Russia ought to face incredibly punitive actions over this, otherwise the U.N. will prove themselves to be utterly useless.

[Mikachu Yukitatsu]

I guess you are comparing the UN with League of Nations, Heald. League of Nations didn't prevent World War II as we know. However, United Nations are NOT the reason why there hasn't been WWIII. Throughout the post-world war history, nuclear weapons have made the possible conflict sides, here I mean especially USA and Soviet Union, fear each other so much that nobody attacked. Of course there are other factors, too, I hope someone can enlighten us?

Actually I posted this because mr_pikachu seemed to have every second post in this thread.

[mr_pikachu]

Well, there's also the fact that the Soviet Union disbanded, effectively ending the stalemate between it and the United States. Hostilities soon ceased, and we really haven't had any major problems with Russia for awhile. I wouldn't call them allies, but we haven't exactly been in opposition either.


Heald: Personally, I've been thinking the U.N. is useless for... quite awhile. Based on its history dealing with international problems, I'm still waiting for it to prove it has a backbone.

[DarkTemplarZero]

And now Russia's threatening Poland. They better not invade Ukraine, lest they incur the wrath of the Ukrainian Army: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4MGsKAMeJY . Russia, on the other hand, sure knows how to do good military advertising: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHmiqmfNLhE . Almost makes me want to join the Russian army XD.

But anyway, Georgia really fucked this one up badly. They had two choices, either give up the two provinces but keep their nation in tact, or be belligerent and give Russia the excuse to invade that they've been waiting for for years, thus losing the two provinces anyway and having their nation torn to pieces in the process. They definitely took the worst possible option. Scary thing is that Russia did plan this invasion very well, there's no disagreement that Russia couldn't have disemboweled Georgia this efficiently unless they'd been planning an invasion for months. Undoubtedly they're currently planning on invading Poland, Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania, Finland, etc. etc. and are just waiting for an excuse to.

On the plus side for the western world, Russia's population is dropping like a rock. Their birth rate is around 1.2, and thanks to the highest percentage of HIV-positives outside of Africa, terrible healthcare, rampant corruption, widespread alcoholism, and the government's policy of killing all dissenters, predictions show that Russia's population will be cut in half over the next 30 years.

[Mikachu Yukitatsu]

Undoubtedly they're currently planning on invading Poland, Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania, Finland, etc. etc. and are just waiting for an excuse to.

Scary.


Well that they have been planning for the last 1,000 years or so, again and again. For instance Mainilan laukaukset (The Shelling of Mainila) was a fake artillery strike Finland was accused of. Stalin did that to get a pretext to attack our country. In 1998, Boris Jeltsin revealed and admitted Finland didn't fire a single cannon.

However, I myself don't hate Russians. You could say I sometimes even adore their unique history, but perhaps I shouldn't. Every country has an unique history, right?

[Magmar]

Okay, Russia is the size of my package, and Georgia is the size of WPM's. Russia does not need Georgia because it will not substantially increase its size. They need to pull out before they cause Bush to throw a conip-shit and declare another WAR ON OMFG.

[mr_pikachu]

US-Russia chill threatens NASA space program (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080824/sc_afp/usrussiaspaceisspolitics)

Even I didn't realize the effects of Russia's attack could extend that far. NASA may want to rethink its plans or risk being virtually barred from space. :P

[Heald]

US-Russia chill threatens NASA space program (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080824/sc_afp/usrussiaspaceisspolitics)

Even I didn't realize the effects of Russia's attack could extend that far. NASA may want to rethink its plans or risk being virtually barred from space. :P
Is space really that important? I've always considered space to be virtually a waste of time and money (not to mention countless lives) and unless someone can tell me any different, the discoveries they've made up there haven't really had any effect on my life whatsoever. I think you guys would live without going into space until 2015.

[Houndoom_Lover]

Georgia must have oil there. That was our logic when we first heard it- actually, when we first heard it, we were like "Wow, how did Russia sneak into the states" XD

[Jeff]

Yeah, our family's big joke was that Russia must really want some peaches if they're invading Georgia.

[mr_pikachu]

From Western nations warn Russia to 'change course' (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080827/ap_on_re_eu/georgia):

TBILISI, Georgia - Western leaders warned Russia on Wednesday to "change course," hoping to keep a conflict that already threatens a key nuclear pact and could even raise U.S. chicken prices from blossoming into a new Cold War.

Suffice it to say, rarely does one see "chicken prices" and "Cold War" in the same sentence.

[Blademaster]

So... Now that everyone is pissed off at Russia and scared of what they'll do next... Does that mean the U.S. is off the hook? :heh:

[mr_pikachu]

Here we go. It's embargo time (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080828/ap_on_re_eu/georgia).

[Roy Karrde]

"Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin accused the United States on Thursday of pushing Georgia toward war and said he suspects a connection to the U.S. presidential campaign"

Can we officially call Putin crazy? Or does he have to make a certain number of Genocidal Statements to reach Ahmadinejad/Hitler status?

[mistysakura]

Sigh. Bring on Cold War II. Y'know, the argumnet that South Ossetia wanted independence and Russia was merely protecting it made a bit of sense... the argument about Georgia's genocide was complete lies. Re: the first argument, I'm reluctant to see this as a 'big country bullying small country' situation, given most of the world supported Kosovo's independence and Russia is just being extra vocal about it, but the lies show Russiia's aggression has gone beyond that. Warships for 'peacekeeping'? Can't we ever bloody learn? And the accusation that Bush is provoking the conflict to help McCain into office is ridiculous.

Also, if we ever doubted it, it's pretty obvious that the 'king' of Russia's chessboard is just that -- barely more powerful than a pawn and still being pushed around by the player.

[mr_pikachu]

Also, if we ever doubted it, it's pretty obvious that the 'king' of Russia's chessboard is just that -- barely more powerful than a pawn and still being pushed around by the player.

For the record, that's the best analogy I've heard all year.

One has to wonder why Putin would want to get into a conflict with the U.S. I don't think Russia is nearly as strong as the U.S.S.R. was during the Cold War... what's his game? A power play to move American troops out of the Middle East? That seems extremely risky, though, even if they did benefit from the past oil agreements. Hrm.

[Roy Karrde]

One has to wonder why Putin would want to get into a conflict with the U.S. I don't think Russia is nearly as strong as the U.S.S.R. was during the Cold War... what's his game? A power play to move American troops out of the Middle East? That seems extremely risky, though, even if they did benefit from the past oil agreements. Hrm.

I think it is mainly for moral. Russia took a beating in the 90s after the fall of the Soviet Union. They were looked at as a joke, and really they are a Third World Country with First World Weaponry. This whole thing is a deal of pride, Russia lost their pride after the Soviet Union. Remember Putin calls the fall of the Soviet Union the worst thing to happen in the 20th Century * sp *.

They want respect, they want their citizens to feel prideful.

The scary thing, is not that Russia could launch it's nukes, ( They have threatened Ukraine with that ). But that the nukes are so broken down, so under maintained, that they would fail in their launch tubes, or break apart over a city. Each one would cause a ecological disaster. Then again so would if a nuke actually hit Ukraine, but as poorly maintained and equipped Russia's nukes now are, I wouldn't think Ukraine is worrying too much.

[DarkTemplarZero]

Hahah Ukraine is definitely worried about pissing off Russia. To crush Ukraine, Russia doesn't need nukes, although those are pretty threatening. Who do you think supplies virtually all of Ukraine's oil and natural gas? Russia. Russia gets mad, cuts off exports to Ukraine, watches as the winter kills off a huge portion of the population or Ukraine comes crawling willing to make any concessions necessary. This is unless the west steps up aid, but it would probably be very expensive since they'd have to set up new ways of getting the stuff to Ukraine, and Ukraine isn't a particularly wealthy country.

And Russia is definitely not a third world country, or at least northwestern Russia is not. Russia is crazy rich right now, their economy is growing by leaps and bounds. Of course everything south of Volgograd and east of the Urals may as well be a third world country, the old joke goes that people south of Volgograd wish that the Nazis had won at Stalingrad and continued advancing, because everything north of Volgograd has been rebuilt, whereas everything south of it has barely been renovated since pre-WW2. But anyway, Putin is just a crazed lunatic, and I definitely agree he's all about nationalistic pride.

[Mikachu Yukitatsu]

Well if Russia said it depends on west whether the Cold War begins again, that might mean Russia is already so near that all we need is west.

Anyway, in history, Stalin, who was a Georgian, granted the areas to his original homeland. So Russia kinda has some connections.

Yet another thought, a friend of mine brought up that Russia itself has parts that want independence so they are double-moralists when they give this free South Ossetia - stuff.

I wish this reply was readable.

[mr_pikachu]

Georgia says Russia troops blocking refugee return (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080830/ts_nm/georgia_ossetia_dc)

Whether or not you take it at face value, this is a big accusation that can't be overlooked, for two reasons (both of which assume that it could be true - not a long shot considering Russia's recent statements and actions).

First, it's a hostile act against non-combatant residents far beyond a simple military quarrel. Preventing residents from returning home doesn't really help anyone unless you expect more fighting, and they've already said they're going to leave the area. If you're leaving, why would you anticipate more battles that could endanger those Georgians?

The consequence of this comes second: it guarantees that they don't intend to live up to their promise of withdrawal. Even if Russia tried to say, "Oh, we're keeping the innocent residents away so they won't get caught in future battles," it would immediately show that they intend to be present in South Ossetia for some time.

Thus, if this report is accurate, it demonstrates that Russia is making a power play against Georgian citizens who have nothing to do with the conflict, and it shows that they're not leaving any time soon. Goodbye, any and all trust we may have had.

[Roy Karrde]

Breaking News: Josef Stalin acted rationally as he killed millions, claims Russian Government made Text Books (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/2672717/Josef-Stalin-acted-rationally-in-killing-millions-claims-Russian-textbook.html)

Well since this seems to tie in with Russia's new resurgent attitude. It seems that new Government made text books in Russia are trying to justify the mass murdering actions of Stalin.

DTZ is going to go ape shit when he sees this ~.^

[Heald]

That's just great. In England, we learn about how the British Empire was the worst thing ever in humanity and how the British are responsible for slavery, AIDS, poverty, World Wars 1 and 2 and generally how evil we are, while we're also taught that Islam is the greatest religion ever and all Muslims have buttercups and rainbows shining out of their arses, and the only reason there are terrorists in the first place is because we misunderstand Islam. Then we have to go to lunch and eat halal meat.

I'm seriously not joking. This is what I was taught in history and religious studies. Patriotism is dead.

[mr_pikachu]

That's just great. In England, we learn about how the British Empire was the worst thing ever in humanity and how the British are responsible for slavery, AIDS, poverty, World Wars 1 and 2 and generally how evil we are, while we're also taught that Islam is the greatest religion ever and all Muslims have buttercups and rainbows shining out of their arses, and the only reason there are terrorists in the first place is because we misunderstand Islam. Then we have to go to lunch and eat halal meat.

I'm seriously not joking. This is what I was taught in history and religious studies. Patriotism is dead.

See, in America (some) schools don't do this. That's why the mass media exists, after all.


Russia's making more aggressive moves...

Russian strategic bombers land in Venezuela (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080911/ap_on_re_eu/russia_venezuela_bombers)

I find the following quote very telling:


Russian military analysts said it was the first time Russian strategic bombers have landed in the Western Hemisphere since the Cold War. The provocative foray into Venezuela was certain to add to the strain in U.S.-Russian relations created over Russia's war in Georgia.

Chavez called the deployment part of a move toward a "pluri-polar world" — a reference to moving away from U.S. dominance. "The Yankee hegemony is finished," Chavez said in a televised speech.

No, that doesn't sound like a threat at all!

[Blademaster]

...

We're boned.

[Roy Karrde]

...

We're boned.

To further help this statement.

I can't exclude that if such decisions are taken by our military-political leadership, the missile shield in Poland and the Czech Republic and other such objects could be chosen as designated targets for some of our inter-continental ballistic missiles (http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080910093546.ixowy7j5&show_article=1)

When the words Inter-Continental Ballistic Missiles gets thrown around with such ease, even I start to get worried.

[Ultimate Charizard]

You know what screw politics. Ive seriously had enough of all this political BS in everyday life. Lets sort it out the old fashioned way.

Every country for themselves, ally who the hell you want and if a country doesnt want to fight their fair game. Last man standing wins...

[mr_pikachu]

Documents: Russia impeding South Ossetia monitors (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080912/ap_on_re_eu/russia_georgia_monitors)

Seems to me that Russia's already adopted the "screw politics" approach. Every word its leaders have uttered since this conflict began has been a blatant lie. They've clearly thrown any thoughts of diplomacy out the window.

[mr_pikachu]

Bit of an update following the reference to this conflict in today's presidential debate.

Russia ups nuclear stakes after Georgia threat (http://www.euronews.net/en/article/26/09/2008/russia-ups-nuclear-stakes-after-georgia-threat/)

Because, you know, they really have to shore up their defenses in case Georgia ever attacks them. Wouldn't want those naughty Georgians to put any dings in their tanks.

Oh, and in case you were wondering, Russia hasn't left yet (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/World/USA/Georgia_row_US_warns_of_punitive_action_against_Ru ssia/rssarticleshow/3529726.cms).