Whats next? [Politics Discussion]

[Dark-San]

All of you dudes should be aware of the other bigger news instead of soaking ourselves in the United States Presidential Election.

http://sg.news.yahoo.com/ap/20081109/tap-as-indonesia-bali-bombers-4th-ld-wri-64ed358.html

At midnight yesterday, the three bombers responsible for the worst terrorist attack in South East Asia, Bali Bomb Attack 2002, finally faced the firing squad. Of course, there is the fear of a repeated disaster of that large scale will happened again.

The bomb attack then only killed the supposed whites, that these terrorists want to declare jihad against, they also killed the locals too. Claiming a holy victory, these three guys are not afraid of death upon their arrest by the Indonesia authorities. Instead, they believed that upon execution, they will ascend to heaven.

Now that will make me wonder on a few questions on this execution,

1) To what extent are these bombers being religiously brainwash?
2) Australians are by right against the death sentence but then again why are some Australians still supportive of this sentence?
3) What are the chances of another revenge attack of this large scale would happen?

[Blademaster]

1. Do we really need ANOTHER topic about politics?

2. I wouldn't call this 'bigger' than the Presidential election. The actual bombings, yes. The shooting of three criminals behind it, I don't think so much.

3.
1) To what extent are these bombers being religiously brainwash?

............

(leaves)

[Dark-San]

(leaves)

Nah, its another side of politics. Nothing to do with democracy stuffs but more on terrorism and how governments should deal with them.

It MIGHT not be big over on your side. But it is big on our side at least. It is the worst terrorist attack we had here so far and there are very much mixed reactions on whether should these guys be send to the gallows, with much contradiction of the law between Australia and Indonesia. I posted it here to find out the rest of the world's opinion.

If you have nothing to input, leave the topic. Otherwise, contribute. Simple as that.

[Roy Karrde]

1) To what extent are these bombers being religiously brainwash?

That depends as the Palestinian Crisis has shown us, Religion isn't the only reason for terrorism, it can also be the target of poverty. But Organized Radical Religion can play a major part, it just determines on the back ground of these people. If their family was promised money if they were to kill themselves, then it wasn't Religion.



2. I wouldn't call this 'bigger' than the Presidential election. The actual bombings, yes. The shooting of three criminals behind it, I don't think so much.

Bigger is Relative, the world does not revolve around life in the US. To Dark and those on the other side of the world, this may seem like this year's big event of controversy.

[Clark]

Bigger is Relative, the world does not revolve around life in the US.

I guess the global markets just magically fell on their own. :rolleyes:

[Dark-San]

Okay, let me set some ground rules before this topic erupts into some 'hot-bed presidential election debate round 2' topic.

When you are posting keep in mind the following,

1) The topic asked for the opinion on what does the world thinks of sending these murderers to the gallows. Executing them would mean that allowing these bastards to believe that they had finally had the chance to ascend heaven. Sentencing them to life imprisonment means forcing them to repent for the rest of their nature lives and neglect the sentiments of the victim's family. What is the fine balance of forgiveness and punishment do we draw here?
2) South East Asia just like the Middle East is another hot bed for terrorists. We have a majority moderate Muslim population here, and a fairy high marginal percentage of the more hardcore militants ones. By sentencing these bombers to their death, these hardcores at large will view them as 'heroes'. Hence, prompting the fears around of another large extensive attack. Are the people in South East Asia generally feel safe around?
3) Australians have a law that forbids the death sentence. If the next attack would happen on Australian soil, how would they be able to deal with it? Australia is just a backdoor away from Indonesia and chances that this attack would happened is pretty high.
4) These militants are generally poor and low educated. They are easily brainwash and utilized by these extremists. They of course would generally blamed everything on the Western World? The problem is to what extent are they being brainwash and is there anything the local government could do to prevent such things from happening?

Do keep your discussion centered around these questions. Anything outside of these discussion questions would be regarded as spam and will be promptly dealt with by the MISC moderators. Also a finishing word is that the world does not revolved around the United States. You can be ignorant of these global happenings. But for how long? Take 9/11 as a prime example. You know the consequences, you experienced it and you want it to happen again?

My reminder again though, If you have nothing to input, leave the topic. Otherwise, contribute. Simple as that.

[Bulbasaur4]

The "religiously brainwashed" thing is a little sensitive. Originally if someone were performing in a struggle to be more like god and had to proclaim a jihad, there were rules. No harming innocents, woman, children, etc... but during our modern era the lines of religion continue to branch out. The idea of "sacrificing an innocent few for the greater good" is becoming more of the way of the jihad. Of course, sometimes I wonder where the beef really is. I assume the government, but then I fail to see how killing a small portion of civilians one bomb at a time is going to accomplish anything, and if they realize that. I mean yes, they accomplish a little bit of what they want as a terrorist, but what do they accomplish in their religious ideal? A wonderful trip to heaven? But if that's true, than haven't they failed in that regard? I mean, technically a successful jihad would mean accomplishing their goals for Islam such as protecting their home and ideals. Killing innocents wouldn't accomplish this at all... and certainly wouldn't spur a government to do anything differently. *shrug* Most of the bombings that occur aren't accepted or sanctioned by their own Muslim community.

Bah... I'm just blabbing, the whole thing is baffling to me.

It's just too bad that things have been so pressured and heated for years that the violent struggles become ever more violent as technology increases.

[Gavin Luper]

1) To what extent are these bombers being religiously brainwash?
2) Australians are by right against the death sentence but then again why are some Australians still supportive of this sentence?
3) What are the chances of another revenge attack of this large scale would happen?

Good thread, Dark!

1) I have no idea. I bought a really interesting book on brainwashing a few months ago and though I never actually finished it, it had lots of interesting points. For starters, brainwashing is apparently thrown around a lot as a kind of catch-all reason, but true brainwashing doesn't just mean being taught a certain thing, it means a deliberate attempt to make a person believe in a particular ideology. It means forcing them to believe something they didn't want to believe, which I don't think is the case here, so from my understanding, I don't think it could be called brainwashing. "Religious brainwashing" is an interesting variant term. Did their particular beliefs forcibly coerce them into killing 202 people? I doubt it. But did their interpretation of their religion result in that attack? It appears so. So, while actual mind manipulation was doubtfully a factor here (at least, from an outside observer's point of view), I'd say a particular, perhaps personally-interpreted religious belief was.

2) I think the last death by capital punishment in Australia was in the mid-late 1960s. I imagine there are still those around who support it, perhaps for the very worst criminals. These bombers would certainly fall into that category in many people's eyes. Moreover, the fact that these people murdered 88 Australians in Bali would probably convince a lot of people - young or old - that in this one case, the death penalty is warranted.

Personally, I'm against capital punishment; and though these guys are guilty of heinous crimes, I'd still be hesitant to say, "yes, I support them being killed, even though they've been charged with killing". There's something inherently hypocritical there. And even though it's in Indonesia and not Australia, I still want to keep in mind that legal decisions made in our own jurisdictions can affect us all. If we start saying it's okay to kill people for x, it might open up a loophole in the law that makes it okay to kill people for y and z as well.

In this particular case, I'm against the death penalty because it makes the bombers into martyrs for any potential copycats to look up to and idolise, which is an idea I really don't like to entertain. Besides, I believe Dumbledore was right: there are things much worse than death.

3) I don't really know. If a revenge attack were to happen, I don't think it would be on the same calibre as 2002 (not that I have any evidence to support that, it's just a hunch). In any case, I think it's certainly possible, but hopefully doesn't happen at all.

[RedStarWarrior]

All of you dudes should be aware of the other bigger news instead of soaking ourselves in the United States Presidential Election.

http://sg.news.yahoo.com/ap/20081109/tap-as-indonesia-bali-bombers-4th-ld-wri-64ed358.html

At midnight yesterday, the three bombers responsible for the worst terrorist attack in South East Asia, Bali Bomb Attack 2002, finally faced the firing squad. Of course, there is the fear of a repeated disaster of that large scale will happened again.

The bomb attack then only killed the supposed whites, that these terrorists want to declare jihad against, they also killed the locals too. Claiming a holy victory, these three guys are not afraid of death upon their arrest by the Indonesia authorities. Instead, they believed that upon execution, they will ascend to heaven.

Now that will make me wonder on a few questions on this execution,

1) To what extent are these bombers being religiously brainwash?
2) Australians are by right against the death sentence but then again why are some Australians still supportive of this sentence?
3) What are the chances of another revenge attack of this large scale would happen?
1) Apparently 100%.

2) By default, not everyone is going to agree on anything.

3) 100%...the only question is when.

[Andrew]

I do not support the death penalty.

By keeping someone imprisoned it may be a burden financially but it highlights that our society values life. No matter who they are.

Yes, it was a horrific attack which has shattered lives, but I do not support their death.

[Bulbasaur4]

I do not support the death penalty.

By keeping someone imprisoned it may be a burden financially but it highlights that our society values life. No matter who they are.

Yes, it was a horrific attack which has shattered lives, but I do not support their death.


Actually it costs less to keep someone in prison the rest of their life then it does to kill by leathal injection, which is one of the most common death penalties in the US! :3

[Heald]

I don't believe they were Jihadists. Jihadists are usually too stupid to take the backpack off before blowing it up.

I'm undecided about the death penalty. Socially, I'm against it. Economically, for it, unless we can put them in work camps or something and actually make money off of these people.

The fact is these people are not scared by death, hence why they carry out these attacks. That is the most dangerous thing of all; to brainwash someone until not even their own death is too much of a sacrifice for them. While the enemy has that power, defeating terrorism is nigh-on impossible. Nothing short of killing all of them and those who preach these messages of hate will stop them.


Actually it costs less to keep someone in prison the rest of their life then it does to kill by leathal injection, which is one of the most common death penalties in the US! :3


Surely only because of lawsuits and such? Take those out of the equation, and perhaps using a cheaper form of execution, and you're done.

[Andrew]

Hello guillotine!

[shazza]

I do not support the death penalty.

By keeping someone imprisoned it may be a burden financially but it highlights that our society values life. No matter who they are.

Yes, it was a horrific attack which has shattered lives, but I do not support their death.

I couldn't have said it any better myself.

[PancaKe]

Hmmm... So now I'm thinking really hard about something I wouldn't have thought of at all just to give a worthwhile contribution to this thread...

I think that religion plays some part, but its not the entire story. You can't judge all muslims by the Jihad terrorists, or by what the media wishes to portray about them.

I don't agree with the death penalty. I don't think its our job to take away from someone what isn't ours to rightfully take away. I don't want to start a debate on abortions, but I think its rather interesting the amount of people who are against the death penalty, but don't mind letting people choose to kill their babies. *Shrugs* Just a side thought.

I don't think there will be a "revenge" attack as such just because these guys were killed. There could always be another terrorist attack. We don't know. I highly doubt it will be revenge though. I don't think revenge is what they need to motivate them.

[mistysakura]

1. I don't know. I'm against reducing the Bali bombers' motives to "they were brainwashed". That's like saying they're mindless drones acting under the order of Jehemiah Islamiah. It's saying that you can't possibly believe in suicide bombing unless you're mindless. I don't believe in invalidating beliefs like that. The Bali bombers had their reasons for believing what they believed, like we have reasons for believing what we believe. And they most probably weren't mindless. Were they "brainwashed" into their actions by their beliefs? Definitely. Just like we all act on what we believe. Just because their beliefs happen to be morally atrocious doesn't mean they're invalid reasons to act.

However, I'm sure that their beliefs weren't Islamic beliefs as most of the world knows them.

Back to the issue of brainwashing: I see brainwashing as a process of attaining beliefs by which the indoctrinator actively blocks out any opposition or counterarguments to said belief. Obviously, I don't have information on whether the Bali bombers actually underwent this.

2. I believe the question isn't asking why some Australians believe in the death penalty but others don't, but why some Australians who don't believe in the death penalty support the executions of the Bali bombers, yes? Two reasons: racism and diplomacy. Racism because the victims were Australian, so their killers must die -- especially if the killers aren't Australian. Diplomacy because while the Australian government theoretically opposes the death penalty, it doesn't want to be seen as interfering in Indonesia's affairs, so it's not condemning the Bali bombers. (Oh, and third reason: pure politics. The government seems to think that if they oppose the death penalty of these evil killers of Australians there'll be a huge backlash. Which is sadly true.)

What do I think about this? Obviously, I'm opposed to racism. Diplomacy-wise, I still think it's really important to oppose the death penalty, especially considering the amount of effort the government has put into getting Australians off death row in Indonesia. The government is utterly hypocritical for not declaring that it opposes the death penalty for the Bali bombers. In the interests of diplomacy, I guess they shouldn't actually have tried to get the Bali bombers off death row, but a statement isn't going too far.

(For the record, I'm against the death penalty for anyone.)

3. Do I look like a clairvoyante? :P I don't know enough to answer this one. We could just have a couple of days of protests... or this could turn out to be something big.

[Dark-San]

It does pretty amazed me of how our Australians counterpart reacted. All of them turns out to be against the death penalty. I am for the death sentence for your opinion. Trash me or do whatever you want with me, but I have only seen the effective side of a death penalty.

Besides my life philosophy has always been, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a death will only be answerable by another one's death. How effective is the death penalty? Over here in Singapore, ever since death sentence is introduced to drug smuggling and bank robbery, we gradually saw the huge marginal decreased in percentage of them happening again. Of course, there are also other factors in play for our Bali Bombing case.

These includes their religious mindset, how they are prepared to die etc. But my guess is that the Indonesian government had to do it to satisfy the world community and also introduced a scare factor to the would-be terrorists. Personally, I would say the death penalty is more of a wait and see tactic. If that fails and the situation does turn out to be for the worse, they might go for the non- death approach.

Back to our Australian counterparts and those against the death penatly, let say if this time round another attack would to happen and the one that got caught in the crossfire happens to your loved ones this time round, how would you react? Would you still stick to your own beliefs?

[mistysakura]

I wouldn't know unless I was actually in that situation -- I can't say that my powers of empathy extend that far. But I'm guessing I would still be against the death penalty. Reasons:

1. Killing the killers wouldn't bring my loved ones back.
2. If any of them turn out to be innocent, they don't ever have a chance to appeal.
3. Even if they're guilty, terrorists have loved ones too. I wouldn't want anyone to go through the pain that I'd be feeling.
4. The death penalty brings media coverage and infamy and martyrdom. I'd much rather the terrorists rotted in a cell, thank you very much.
5. Interesting statistics in Singapore, but in America, states with the death penalty have the same crime rate as states that don't. So the death penalty doesn't necessarily discourage crime.
6. In fact, with terrorists, the death penalty really doesn't discourage crime, because the terrorists see themselves as martyrs anyway. I daresay they want to die, like you said. They wouldn't be scared.
7. If the world community is against the death penalty, there is no need to apply the death penalty to satisfy the world community.

But as I said before, if I were actually in that situation, I might not be sane enough to think of any of this, and just want pure revenge.

[Drago]

Well, allow me to throw my redneck opinion into the ring; I'm one of those Australians who is actually for the death penalty.
For me, it's very much a matter of the bigger picture; life is a precious gift, and those who have the audacity and cowardice to take away the lives of innocent people have already thrown their own lives away. There is simply no purpose in these people remaining alive; allowing them to bask in the glory of their successful attacks. Sure, let them be happy that they're going to die a 'holy death', just wait 'til they see what waits for them on the other side.

Allowing them to rot in jail for the rest of their lives is just a waste of space, and a waste of money. I'm not exactly lenient in the face of people who have wronged; despite what you may expect, I'm actually something of a right-wing tyrant. The difference is, I can actually understand and respect the opinion of those who disagree with me.