TPM Democracy

[shazza]

I propose we turn TPM into a democracy! All members with a respectable join date and post number every 4 years get to reelect new Super Mod's, with the current able to run again.

Any member is able to run, as once again, only if they have a respectable join date, post number and generally good record.

Wouldn't that make a bit of interactive excitement to TPM? Especially since we more or less have no active administrators who keep a record on how well the Super Mod's are doing.

Most members would vote with rationality, and it is even a likely possibility that nobody would be willing to run up against the Super Mod's as their support is far too big.

When pre-selections begin, a normal member/moderator gets to choose which Super Mod they want to run up against in an election. A moderator challenging to become a Super Moderator would have a lot of support because they have a trusted power, especially those like Austrian Vice Master Alex who have been a mod for many years. Whereas a member is a fresh face altogether.

For example, Lady Vulpix's authority could be challenged by Magmar, mr_pikachu and Austrian Vice Master Alex. Zak could be challenged by Mikachu Yukitatsu and Andrew could have many challenges.

Probably a 7 limit maximum though in nominees, and you can't run up against more than one election.

I'm open for ideas. Let's do this shit!

P.S: I'm not sober.

:911::eng101:

[Roy Karrde]

Its a interesting idea but you run into the problem that has been plaguing us for months. The two admins that can reasonably do it are away and we never know when they are going to show up. They could show up in a week, a month, or not at all. Meaning any elected Super Mod could be waiting for a very long time to be modded. And if we have a very crappy Super Mod then we would be waiting a very long time to kick him/her out.

[shazza]

Suzie comes from time to time, and if the Super Mod has a lot of complaints the administrator still has a right to demod them.

I'm not criticising any of the Super Mod's performances in anyway, and if TPM wants the same Super Mod's then they would be reelected, but many people know (or could easily grasp) how to run a forum of this little activity and fresh faces would be a really interesting change for TPM.

Everyone has more or less been in power for years now followed by a similar structure of rules (new SuperMod's will probably adhere to them either way), and a new change of faces would add a fun and refreshing element.

Perhaps even put them on a trial or something?

I always loved how TPM would ever so often back in the days change an admin or whatever, a new face would be a big thing for me.

[Andrew]

So you're saying I am a shitty staff member?

[shazza]

No, I love you Andrew, and I'd vote for you if you were being contested!

[Dark-San]

It's a good plan to revitalize a failing forum. But we have to keep both of our feet intact on the ground unfortunately. Democracy although it is freedom, it is still a double edged sword. A nominee with no substance and only charisma can be elected as a Super Moderator and fouls up in his daily routines. I would rather have somebody who have substances and yet offends the members but able to work with his teammates.

No offense but I do not see the creditability of this plan. A Super Moderator will naturally only be chosen from a handful of moderators. And the only way a Super Moderator can be stepped down, only when an Administrator demands it. People's power has nothing to do with here but rather the efficiency of getting things done.

[Lady Vulpix]

I think it would be an interesting experiment except for one thing: join date and post number say nothing about how respectable a member is. Something like this could encourage people to spam for the sake of "postcount++", a problem we used to have years ago and fortunately don't have anymore. I think valuable contributions to the forum mean a lot more than join date and post count.

[RedStarWarrior]

I think it would be an interesting experiment except for one thing: join date and post number say nothing about how respectable a member is. Something like this could encourage people to spam for the sake of "postcount++", a problem we used to have years ago and fortunately don't have anymore. I think valuable contributions to the forum mean a lot more than join date and post count.
It's not like anyone is considering Ash_300 for the position.

[Blademaster]

Electing new Mods and kicking out old ones? I'm interested.

[Roy Karrde]

Electing new Mods and kicking out old ones? I'm interested.

The idea is for Super Mods, so unless you have a real problem with Zak, Lady V, or Andrew nothing will really happen. Its a interesting idea like I said, but there are some problems it could run into.

[Asilynne]

I notice that the only ones really having a problem with this idea are mods >.> lol!~

I was actually thinking of something like this, only I was thinking more like every 6 months. This way the mods will not fall into the comfortable "well Im a mod so I can pretty much do/say whatever I want with no consequence!" if they know that the "normal" members have the power to decide when theyve outlived their usefulness (or when theyre sick of their rudeness, because some mods get a very bad attitude >.>). This would certainly freshen the place up and also take away what seems to be an 'allure' of being a mod, it wouldnt be this high and mighty thing to be that a lot of people seem to think -.-()

Unfortunately the only downside to this is we are such a small community atm that eventually everyone would have been a mod at one time. Although this also has a positive since it would harbor an equal respect for all members since at one time you possibly have or will work with them.

But since this is such a good idea no one will ever listen to it XD

[Roy Karrde]

I notice that the only ones really having a problem with this idea are mods >.> lol!~

Well thats kind of because we know how hard it is to get things through the Admins. Especially when we only have 2 who have the power to do this, and they never show up. Not to mention the can of worms in politics the whole situation would bring.

I mean I am not discounting the idea, just trying to be a realist from experience I have gained from similar things.

[Asilynne]

If the admins were REALLY that hard to get ahold of, Fanfic, ASB and RPG would have never bothered with Mod applications because they wouldnt know when such people were ever going to be modded once chosen. Thats a bit of a contradiction dont you think? ^-~

[Roy Karrde]

If the admins were REALLY that hard to get ahold of, Fanfic, ASB and RPG would have never bothered with Mod applications because they wouldnt know when such people were ever going to be modded once chosen. Thats a bit of a contradiction dont you think? ^-~

Just because we have applications doesn't mean we can easily get ahold of them, some times like in RPG it is just something you have to do no matter what. And really it doesn't mean that they will overall agree with the choices that were made.

[Lady Vulpix]

Asi, are you trying to contribute or just picking up a fight? Because the tone of your posts seems to suggest the latter.

Yes, admins are hard to find, but I would like to believe that at least one of them will show up eventually. Otherwise any mod elections we may hold will be useless.

[Asilynne]

I dont try to start fights, I just bring up points people havent brought up yet (or points people would rather choose to ignore). If I wanted to start or continue a fight I would have responded right back to Roys last post, however, Im smart enough to see where that will lead so I respectfully decided to let it go >.> Until you had to drag me kicking and screaming back into it XDDD

But your point brings up another interesting idea. Im not suggesting we get rid of the current admins, but do you think any of them would be opposed to Adminning someone that will actually be around fairly often? Granted it would be hard to decide who it would be since it would have to be someone who could not only be trusted to not go hog wild but also be trusted to be fair and neutral in dealings. I would logically assume it would have to be one of the current super mods since they have the most experience and trust factor with being in charge of all forums, and it wouldnt be too much of a leap for them, however really it could be anyone fairminded and online often enough. If/when anyone gets ahold of one of the current admins I think it would be a good idea to at the very least suggest the idea of another admin to them, so that the supermods/mods hands arent tied the way they apparently are now.

[Roy Karrde]

Lets try not to start any fights, were having a discussion about a potential idea. I can see how Andrew and the rest could be miffed, they do have a thankless job and do alot of things for this forum.

Right now I am not trying to shoot down anyone's ideas, just there are some problems that us Mods know about, that some of you guys probably do not know that could be road blocks for this idea.

[Weasel Overlord]

RE: admins. ASB has been waiting ages for their election choice to be modded.

That's all I'm gonna say on the matter though, I really can't be bothered getting into a serious-business discussion right now.

[Dark-San]

I am going to be civilized here. Firstly, I would say that contacting the administrators are difficult. They are not totally uncontactable but just trying to get them online alone is hard. It is very unreasonable to blame the total thing on the moderators, who have been getting hold of them. Besides we cannot totally blame the administrators since they have real life issues to deal with. Even within scanlaton community, we deal with this issues everyday. It is tougher to us since inactivity there would mean the translator/ staff would need to do more. The same logic applies here.

And also about appointing a new Super Moderator to be an administrator, yeah we can do that. Simpler say than done. There are a lot of issues to deal with here, which many of the members here are ignorant of.

And about the moderators being comfy in their positions, well that is uncalled for. Let's not talk about others, just me alone. Do you think it is unfair to me if you say that? Okay let me tell you some of the things that I tried and nobody even bothered to participate in. Let's say in the OA forum, I tried the anime channel project and see if that would prompt any activity from the members here. But no, nobody even paid attention that. The only person who do that is Kirst and she is a moderator. Not even a member. Okay let's forward to today, I typed out a 3 hours hardwork of report in the contributor's forum. All I got was 22 views and only 1 reply by a member, 2 by Gabi. What happened here?

The problem is that it isn't a change of leadership that we need here. But rather the lack of enthusiasm that the forum has. Unless that itself is addressed, no matter how many change of moderators etc, none of the ideas will ever going to work.

[Asilynne]

Its hard for me to form an accurate opinion of situations that I dont have all the information for. My above opinion is based off only what I can see around me, not about all the secret bs that apparently goes on. Knowing that I have no idea how hard things actually are when it comes to getting people modded/modding in general/the obsticles that are faced etc, my opinion seems less an accusation than what it is-- a simple interpretation of the information I have privy to. I seriously didnt expect anyone to get so defensive, and now that Im aware that I dont have all the information on this subject I will reserve my judgement/suggestions on how to make things better until such time (if ever) that I do have all the info.

So quit reffing me up peoples XDDD

[Jeff]

But your point brings up another interesting idea. Im not suggesting we get rid of the current admins, but do you think any of them would be opposed to Adminning someone that will actually be around fairly often?

The problem with that is that the only person on the board who is capable of that is Kevin.

[Lady Vulpix]

Of course. If mods (or supermods) could promote mods to admin status, then mods/supermods would effectively be admins. No message board would allow that.

[shazza]

I think it would be an interesting experiment except for one thing: join date and post number say nothing about how respectable a member is. Something like this could encourage people to spam for the sake of "postcount++", a problem we used to have years ago and fortunately don't have anymore. I think valuable contributions to the forum mean a lot more than join date and post count.

Basically, I think any member that is well known and well respected over a long duration should be allowed to vote. Any of the current well known and respected members who commence a 'postcount+++' ideology would be stupid in that they already had the capability to vote, and any new member will be judged more upon their quality of posts and input.

[Magmar]

I actually think Asi was completely being okay and that in all honesty if you can't handle criticism, you should jump off a bridge. If you seriously wanna fight about respectable join date, you may as well supermod me since my join date > all of your join dates.

[Thanksverymuch]

I say all non-mods should commit anarchic behaviour and register 1000s of accounts with several proxies on hand then write down a list of actions that must be taken and then if they don't listen spam spam spam away.

Or we could just find some girl who is willing to get in touch with Kevin and be sexually explicit with him.

---

Anyway Shazzapoo I like the idea in some ways though likely way too hard to commit.

[PancaKe]

I'm for one more, slightly more active, admin.

Pity Kevin hasn't been here in 2 years or so, thus can't admin anyone.

[Mikachu Yukitatsu]

Yes but I've seen him online a few times, we sent visitor messages for him. (http://www.pokemasters.net/forums/member.php?u=1)

I think some people would find it hard to use the same idea that is used in countries in a message board. Look it form the coutry viewpoint, hey, even countries that have Democracy do not work that well. Look at Zimbabwe. But on the other hand, one could argue if Zimbabwe really is democratic. And then we have countries which have gained the status of Democracy and are overrated, such as Finland, France, England, Japan, Australia and the USA and so on. The big companies and media have more power than the state and so on. So 'real' democracy would be something different.

So my proposal is that we could try Democracy to some extent, and I believe shazza didn't mean we would do it like in a country anyway. One thing he proposed does look like a country would do though, and that is electing the mods for 4 years. I'd rather have the election twice a year, like Asilynne said. TPM is different. Some of the moderators seem to lose their interest very quickly. One of the disadvantages of Democracy is also that the decision-making is slow. But that's the problem in bigger cases such as countries as I mentioned, and in the case of TPM, we wouldn't have so many decision-makers.

Electing mods would be interesting and add excitement, I think. But of course, exceptions would have to have made, and also we'd have to be prepared if someone fails to do the job, becomes inactive or something. Also, we should have a new subforum open to all members to discuss politics. Actually, this brings another idea. A part of Democracy is to have more documents of the leaders visible to everyone. We could put things like mod approval for games in public.

But remember this all would change TPM considerably. When I am posting this, I have to think all the time this is contradictory and confusing and that I have to stop now. But I'm glad we have had a nice discussion about the idea. To comment on other's posts, I think Asilynne doesn't sound as if she'd begin a fight at all, she uses smilies and stuff. And also, shazza mentioned me in the first post eventhough I never was a mod. I feel honoured.

[PancaKe]

Actually it'd be really interesting if every six months we had new mods everywhere elected. Just to see who screws eveyrthing up.

But its impractical and we're all too lazy

[Dark-San]

Mikachu- That isn't going to happen. We only elected or choose (Depending on the individual forums) if an existing moderator vacant the spot or go AWOL. But, I can not sure if you can remember but there has been only a visible reshuffle last year. Go to the forum leaders and take a look there before telling us if we are doing anything. It is not like we are hiding everything, but we are just doing things backstage.

Edit: Need I also add that Jeff, Dragoknight and Heald were amongst the few that got in the stafflist. New blood comes in and the old gets rotated out.

[shazza]

I am open to debate and negotiation about the proposal as I was really really stoned when I came up with the idea, so it is prone to flaws.

[Roy Karrde]

There are other problems with "Electing Mods" though, seeing how we have tried it a few times in RPG. You usually get hurt feelings by the losers, you get ALOT of politics in the situation before and after. And then of course there is the whole problem if the Admin doesn't like the person and decides he/she wont mod them.

And then of course there is the very real scenario of the April Fools Day Joke becoming real. While I don't think the mods have anything to hide, that doesn't mean that years upon years of material that has been built up in there is completely spotless like any other forum.

And then there is a security issue that I would rather not get into but the Mods know what I am talking about.

And then there is the issue of "jelling with the other mods", while a person may be favored by some here, other mods may really not want to work with him/her and that can lead to a whole load of other problems.

And then there is the problem of rigged elections, as firePokemon just showed us

And then there is the problem already mentioned in that Kevin isn't really around and there could be a long waiting list as we wait for Kevin to show up again.

Really, I just keep going back to the several mod elections we have held in RPG in the past, and the headaches those have brought. Not to say it couldnt be done better in other forums. God knows we have enough Political Problems in RPG.

BTW its 1:30 and I am kind of just well having diarrhea of the mouth as to the potential downsides to weigh with the potential upsides. As I think everyone should be able to have as much information as possible for their decision.

[PancaKe]

Ah, kill joy! I think some serious drama and turbulance would be fun. Do it for the shits and giggles.

[Thanksverymuch]

My first time being mod at TPM in Misc was via an election. And thus could be seen as very democratic. They only did it that way cause like 10 of us applied and they needed to fill four spots. So we all ran it like a mini-election with huge proposals with what we would do in misc, rules we'd enforce etc etc etc. Thinking back now it must have been hilarious the shit I spat out. Worked though, got second. Too Cool Scyther beat me, but I always suspected his votes came from a number of UPN people and hat put him in an initial lead meaning others voted for him since he was already leading. PokeMasterMisty and myself were relatively known and we really wanted to be modded considering both of us applied for General Discussion modship (which Magmar got) and had been vocal. Vocal as in the board, particularly, misc required moderators and strict rules applied. ThunderTheTalkingRaichu was the last of the misc mods. He was reasonably popular but I know it was tight between him and a few others. And as Karrde pointed out. Those who missed out on being modded had some criticisms to make. I'm not really sure why I'm talking about this crap, but me and tpm history goes hand in hand.

[The_Missing_Link]

My first time being mod at TPM in Misc was via an election. And thus could be seen as very democratic. They only did it that way cause like 10 of us applied and they needed to fill four spots. So we all ran it like a mini-election with huge proposals with what we would do in misc, rules we'd enforce etc etc etc. Thinking back now it must have been hilarious the shit I spat out. Worked though, got second. Too Cool Scyther beat me, but I always suspected his votes came from a number of UPN people and hat put him in an initial lead meaning others voted for him since he was already leading. PokeMasterMisty and myself were relatively known and we really wanted to be modded considering both of us applied for General Discussion modship (which Magmar got) and had been vocal. Vocal as in the board, particularly, misc required moderators and strict rules applied. ThunderTheTalkingRaichu was the last of the misc mods. He was reasonably popular but I know it was tight between him and a few others. And as Karrde pointed out. Those who missed out on being modded had some criticisms to make. I'm not really sure why I'm talking about this crap, but me and tpm history goes hand in hand.

That's how I got modded also. The first time around, it was between me and cool_daddy_47 but he was elected. I wasn't too happy because I knew I was more active in PCG than he was but he was friends with more mods and as far as I knew, every mod had a say in who got modded, even if they didn't really post there. Eventually I did get modded but I wasn't thrilled the first time around

But PCG is more general than some other forums, like ASB. It's fine if mods who never go in there might object to someone just because of their personality or how they might do as a mod in general but the existing mods in that forum should have the final say because in the end, they're going to be interacting with them all the time

It's a tough process. Back then, I would say it was easier because of the amount of people to choose from and the higher level of activity. Nowadays, you don't need as many mods. That's why I mod PCG (and PAM but I sometimes forget I do) all by my lonesome

For this message board, it would be pointless to change anything (although shazza admitted his post was created while he was drunk). For one thing, we have good super mods and mods and two, the activity level isn't there to warrant a change. We can't do crap about the admins and Kevin but to be honest, we're mostly self reliant so it doesn't make much of a difference

[Austrian ViceMaster Alex]

TPM has been working great over the past years, no matter how active or inactive super-mods, admins or the board owner were. I see no reason for any changes.

[Gavin Luper]

TPM has been working great over the past years, no matter how active or inactive super-mods, admins or the board owner were. I see no reason for any changes.

I agree with Alex. We could probably do with a more active and easy-to-contact Admin, but I think our modding structure is perfectly equipped for the size and scope of the forum and always has worked well. It's not broken, and I don't see a need to fix it.

[Lady Vulpix]

The mod election did work in Fanfic. It could be done, but I still believe join date and postcount shouldn't determine who gets to vote (unless the limits are reasonable, like having been on TPM for at least one month and having made at least 5 valuable posts, where valuable means the posts have some actual content and not just meaningless text).

The part that is bound to cause trouble is the one where people vote on which mods should leave. That is bound to cause a lot of fights.

Maybe each voter could make a list of which members would do well modding each forum, with a list of reasons, without stating or implying that certain mother members (currently mods or not) aren't fit for the job.

And yes, having an active and accessible admin would be great.

[Chris 2.1]

I think though, when selecting Mods for the forum, any choice the current mods/powers that be make is usually welcomed. When I modded ASB, The Blue Avenger and River were both selected for additonal moderation during my time. Their positions were down to their expirience and what they could contribute, which could not be denied by anyone.

I think everything is fine as it is, really.

[Lady Vulpix]

Of course mods/supermods/admins would be allowed to vote. Banning us from voting for a job position because we've been doing the job for a while would make no sense.

Anyway, I'm not sure whether the results of this election would be good or bad, but as an experiment I think it may be worth a shot. Maybe there are some regular members who would be a good job as mods and have gone unnoticed by the admins so far.

I believe things are working fairly well in some forums. In others I'm not immersed enough to decide. I don't think it will hurt to see what other members think.

I would also be interesting in finding out what people think a mod job means.

[PancaKe]

Clearly, being a mod means you get more pokeballs under your name.

Well that used to be the case anyway...
Sigh I remember when that was SO important

[Telume]

Personally, I have two problems with some of the ideas suggested.

1. Electing people democratically is fine and dandy and all and it's fair, but there lies the problem of how to get rid of them if they cause problems.

2. I think with the activity of the boards, it's kind of counterproductive to elect new mods. I'm NOT saying don't do it, this is just my opinion coming from my experience.

My opinion:

Stick with what you have, if it's been working fine, why change it? The moral of the story here is, don't change a winning team. Besides, if the board has the mass e-mail or mass message system installed, you can easily alert the members to TPMs reactivation or revival, if not then that's fine, when the new webpage comes up chances are you will attract all new members.

I do suggest though that you do begin to purge old and unused accounts, if there are any accounts that have been dead for 2+ years, maybe you should think about it. I'm not doubting that the database's capabilities but, all those useless accounts will eventually catch up to you. If the board automatically does that then I rescind my statement.

EDIT: When I say they will catch up to you, I mean that MySQL has to constantly load and reload those accounts when people login and logout, there are only ever 10-15 people at most right now online. Imagine how much of a strain you would put on the database if 100 people suddenly rushed in to login.

Not trying to pick any fights here, just my 2 cents. (Literally, almost.)

[Gavin Luper]

The mod election did work in Fanfic. It could be done, but I still believe join date and postcount shouldn't determine who gets to vote (unless the limits are reasonable, like having been on TPM for at least one month and having made at least 5 valuable posts, where valuable means the posts have some actual content and not just meaningless text).

The part that is bound to cause trouble is the one where people vote on which mods should leave. That is bound to cause a lot of fights.

Maybe each voter could make a list of which members would do well modding each forum, with a list of reasons, without stating or implying that certain mother members (currently mods or not) aren't fit for the job.

And yes, having an active and accessible admin would be great.

Is this about the super mods or the mods? Because either way, it seems like we're discussing a potential solution to a problem that doesn't actually exist. Each subforum, as far as I'm aware, has enough staff to deal with its level of activity. And you, Zak and Andrew are all, in my opinion, very efficient super mods, so I can't see any argument in replacing any of you.

Furthermore, unless one of the super mods was going to stand down, why would it make any kind of sense to arbitrarily replace them with someone less experienced? I could understand even an argument for a 4th super mod, but to replace an existing one seems illogical to me.

It's only a more active admin that I can see being beneficial for the forum, in my opinion.

[Mikachu Yukitatsu]

OK, perhaps I didn't voice my opinion clearly in my last post, and the truth is I'm not sure at all. The current system with some mods getting chosen via election or more privately has been working. For example Fanfic had two phases: first the members posted their application, and then narrowing the choices to classy_cat18 and PancaKe. Some people protested because they thought they weren't taken seriously. And also now, the people who welcome shazza's idea are the same ones that have been neglected. Quite natural.

First I got some criticism from those who are against Democracy, and then, after this post, I'll get some criticism from those who are with Democracy. But like I said, all the time when I wirte this reply, I think I should stop right now.

I have never been modded yet and one thing I can be sure of, there is a reason.

[Little_Pikachu]

Dudes, I'm here nearly every day :(

I don't really want to get into the arguements which will inevitably stem from any discussions on who should be modded/demodded and why, but if enough people agree on something then who knows, it might just happen.