Michelle Bachman: I want honest opinions

[Dark Sage]

I recently came across a poll on Facebook that I thought was complete BS. It suggested that Michelle Bachman, the Tea Party's new golden girl, would not only win the GOP nomination, but also the Presidency, both by a landslide. (The poll didn't give any percentages, just long bars for the category of people that said they would vote for her and short ones for Obama.)

I find this very hard to believe. This is the woman that just recently in a commercial said she believed a debt default would not be a bad thing, with a smile in her voice and a bouncing guitar in the background.

I thought I'd try to get some honest opinions, and not depend on a poll that I believe was skewed.

What's everyone's opinion of this woman? While you're at it, maybe you can voice your opinion on the other GOP candidates. (Or as I like to call them these days, the GOPTP candidates.) I just want to see what real people have to say.

In case you're wondering, I have tried to remain neutral throughout the whole thing, but the whole "birther" issue and other sheer lunacy I have seen has tipped my support towards Obama in the past year. The Republicans' victory last year seems to have been a pyrric one at best.

Opposing viewpoints are welcome.

[Deadwood_Zen]

Honestly, my political views are more anarchist/slightly-nihilist than picking sides, but Obama isn't THAT bad. All these laws aren't just his decision to make. If I could vote, I'd rather have him over any of these Right Wing radicals.

Radicals(of either side, but Tea Partiers are just more prominent now) scare me a little, just because when you're that enthusiastic, you'd be willing to take drastic measures and risks.

[mattbcl]

Oh my god, Michelle Bachmann.

Personally, I think this woman is quite possibly a bigger moron than Sarah Palin is. You can hate on that remark all you like, for those who are fans of either one, but it bugs the hell out of me that people would seriously consider either one of them after all the idiocy surrounding them both. Bachmann has had just one PR disaster after another because she can't keep her mouth shut and let things go. I have to shrug and say "go ahead" when I see people say they'd vote for her, because I think there are far more serious and effective Republican candidates in the field.

And in my opinion, Facebook polls are absolutely meaningless in this equation because it's been my observation that the people trolling on Facebook seem to be the ones who enjoy armchair quarterbacking and then not exercising their privilege to vote. Yes, I've asked a few.

Okay, now that I'm done ranting about what I think of her personally, I think it's fairly incredible that she would win the nomination, never mind the presidential race. I may be a Democrat, but there are several Republicans who I respect and would not necessarily mind seeing in the White House if Obama did indeed end up losing the race. Truth be told, I don't think I'd have minded seeing McCain win in '08; I had tons of respect for the man and believed he could be a man of equal vision... until he brought in Palin.

But Bachmann winning? No, that's an error in the vote-reader machines or the final act of a country gone completely mad. Frankly, I really think that even if she did win the GOP nomination, it wouldn't be by a landslide, and then the Republican party as we know it would self-destruct over the issue of seeing her in the White House. Too many of them would stay home to NOT give Obama a victory. He probably won't get a landslide either, not like he did in '08, but assuming she's got the nom, he'll still win. He's willing to go center when it needs to happen. Her? No way.

[Dark Sage]

Personally, I think this woman is quite possibly a bigger moron than Sarah Palin is.

That's what I thought, but I wasn't going to say it until someone else did.

I had personally thought that the GOP couldn't get lower than Palin. Then Trump entered the fray... And then Bachman. It seems that I was wrong.

[Deadwood_Zen]

Anyone here seen the movie Idiocracy? Yeah, that's the US in the next century if this keeps up.

[Blademaster]

Never heard of Bachman. Still just thought I'd pop in and say...

inb4politicaldebate

[Jeff]

Roy incoming in 3... 2... 1...

[Roy Karrde]

Not too fond of her, I am waiting for Rick Perry to enter, if not I am more fond of Herman Cain, or Mitt Romney. Hell if it came down between her and Sarah Palin, I would choose Palin just because she did something nice for my Grandmother.

Edit: Is it possible for her to win? Yeah but it wouldn't be on her policies, it would be from the "Anyone but Obama" vote.

[Dark Sage]

Want to see what people these days think of Palin?

Read this link, it will take you five minutes.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/16/sarah-palin-documentary-premiere-empty-audience_n_900693.html?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl2%7Csec3_lnk1%7C78241

Edit: Roy, you know, it's looking kind of grim for the GOP right now... It isn't too late to change sides...

[Roy Karrde]

Edit: Roy, you know, it's looking kind of grim for the GOP right now... It isn't too late to change sides...

You kidding me? With Christie and Perry not even entered yet? We havn't even begun the primary season. Besides the GOP isn't the one with the candidate that is trailing 8 points to "Generic Candidate"

[Dark Sage]

Christie keeps saying that he's not running, but everyone just ignores him. What does he have to do, revoke his US citizenship to get people to believe him?

Besides, I don't think he'd even win New Jersey with the way he's handling things.

[Gavin Luper]

Bachmann was quoted as saying homosexuality is the work of "satan" and she and her husband run a clinic that tries to convert gay people to straight ones.

'Nuff said. Hopefully she and Palin turn against each other and destroy one another's political careers.

[ChobiChibi]

Roy incoming in 3... 2... 1...

Becki Hudd likes this :yes:

[Magmar]

Bachmann was quoted as saying homosexuality is the work of "satan" and she and her husband run a clinic that tries to convert gay people to straight ones.

Bachmann can rot in hell for the reasons above.


'Nuff said. Hopefully she and Palin turn against each other and destroy one another's political careers.

Amen, hallelujah.

The GOP has done nothing but piss off the majority of America. Yes, the majority, for the last three years. They have made compromise impossible. They have trampled upon the downtrodden of America. They have made the rich fat, the middle class extinct, and the young generation of America hopeless. They have thrown us into debt in the name of opportunity and exported our jobs, leaving us in dead end careers to pay off those debts. They have taken our homes with their greed. They have given us college degrees in exchange for decades of poverty. They have driven our nation into war and debt in the name of the not-so-almighty dollar. If I was old enough, I would run for president. The sad thing is, I have a loud enough mouth that I might have a chance. We need someone sassy who will say "No, screw you, we're not giving your big corporations and millionaires any tax breaks. Go fuck yourselves! Ha ha ha you are on CRACK if you think we are doing the rich any favors." We need more jobs and to invest in education not this crock of bullshit no child left behind. I'm starting to sound like firepokemon. In his honor I have omitted any line breaks from this rant.

[Roy Karrde]

The GOP has done nothing but piss off the majority of America. Yes, the majority, for the last three years.

Is that why the GOP won their biggest electoral victory in nearly 80 years last year? Or why the current "Generic Republican Candidate" beats Obama by 8 points according to Gallup?

[woz]

she's literally insane like all republicans.

[Heald]

Is that why the GOP won their biggest electoral victory in nearly 80 years last year? Or why the current "Generic Republican Candidate" beats Obama by 8 points according to Gallup?
I think it is largely a combination of the fact that the Democrats are setting new records across the board in sheer incompetency and the general ignorance of the American people that is being fuelled by the misinformation being disseminated by a mass media that is more interested in conducting a witch-hunt based on fear and sensationalism in a bid to beat their competitors than actually explaining the facts and educating their audience.

Michelle Bachman, however, is 100% fruit-loops batshit nutty. The important issues are foreign policy, the economy and domestic issues that affect the nation as a whole (e.g. immigration, crime), yet she seems more interested in demonizing homosexuals, liberals & the left, as well as pushing an ultra-fundamentalist Christian agenda. The only votes she'll win will be for the wrong reasons.

Still, the GOP needs to get its shit together if it wants to kick Obama out of the Oval Office. None of the candidates are exactly screaming as that much better than Obama. Obama isn't exactly making the best image of himself for re-election, but the incumbent candidate always enjoys a 'better the devil you know' effect where those who have become disillusioned with the incumbent but aren't sold on the challenger will either not vote or vote for more of the same.

A change of administration would be a breath of fresh air, as long as the right candidate was behind it.

[Roy Karrde]

I think it is largely a combination of the fact that the Democrats are setting new records across the board in sheer incompetency and the general ignorance of the American people that is being fuelled by the misinformation being disseminated by a mass media that is more interested in conducting a witch-hunt based on fear and sensationalism in a bid to beat their competitors than actually explaining the facts and educating their audience.

Totally agree on that part, if the GOP or Press ran a campaign showing how much the Democratic Party was responsible for the economic crisis, the party would be out of power for years if not decades.


Michelle Bachman, however, is 100% fruit-loops batshit nutty. The important issues are foreign policy, the economy and domestic issues that affect the nation as a whole (e.g. immigration, crime), yet she seems more interested in demonizing homosexuals, liberals & the left, as well as pushing an ultra-fundamentalist Christian agenda. The only votes she'll win will be for the wrong reasons.

Hey something we can agree on!


Still, the GOP needs to get its shit together if it wants to kick Obama out of the Oval Office. None of the candidates are exactly screaming as that much better than Obama. Obama isn't exactly making the best image of himself for re-election, but the incumbent candidate always enjoys a 'better the devil you know' effect where those who have become disillusioned with the incumbent but aren't sold on the challenger will either not vote or vote for more of the same.

A change of administration would be a breath of fresh air, as long as the right candidate was behind it.

Just hang in there, there are more candidates to come, and I do not mean Palin. Perry looks to jump in and take the race by storm atleast, especially with his economic record in Texas.

[Blademaster]

They have made compromise impossible. They have trampled upon the downtrodden of America. They have made the rich fat, the middle class extinct, and the young generation of America hopeless. They have thrown us into debt in the name of opportunity and exported our jobs, leaving us in dead end careers to pay off those debts. They have taken our homes with their greed. They have given us college degrees in exchange for decades of poverty. They have driven our nation into war and debt in the name of the not-so-almighty dollar. If I was old enough, I would run for president. The sad thing is, I have a loud enough mouth that I might have a chance. We need someone sassy who will say "No, screw you, we're not giving your big corporations and millionaires any tax breaks. Go fuck yourselves! Ha ha ha you are on CRACK if you think we are doing the rich any favors." We need more jobs and to invest in education not this crock of bullshit no child left behind. I'm starting to sound like firepokemon. In his honor I have omitted any line breaks from this rant.

http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/15163070/images/1307301835438.gif

[Magmar]

I'm glad I have your vote, blademaster. Today's politicians need a massive ass beating. Seriously. All they do is bitch and won't hear each other out. As a gay man who wants to marry someday, these bastards just keep trying to take away my right to liberty and the pursuit of happiness, and for what reward?? What is their big loss if I get married?? So yes, I'm personally vested in kicking GOP ass whenever I can, although not all Republicans are like that, and some Democrats are. Basically, what I do in my home is my private business. I can't comprehend why some people want to interfere with that. All people are doing today is getting divorced anyway. There's a minority population that wants marriage and these assholes are too busy telling us no. Meanwhile they are turning around and cheating on their wives and screwing gay prostitutes in bathrooms thinking nobody will ever find out. We wouldn't care if it wasn't for the hypocrisy. We're in the middle of an economic crisis. Why the fuck is all our money going to other countries? Why aren't we trying to stop illegal immigration? These illegal douchenuts are mooching all my tax dollar resources and I can't get services as a result. I'm still working in fucking retail and I'm 25 and have a very strong degree and other excellent credentials. I don't care what party says what, what we need to do is to bring our military home and give them jobs here, stop giving all our money away to foreign countries to maintain good relations because you know what? We're falling apart as a society. We're losing the battle to stay afloat and yet we are giving all our money away. I'm sorry your shitty third world country has natural disasters. Maybe you should try working instead of depending on me to finance you. I want my tax dollars to benefit me and my neighbors, the ones who either are citizens by birthright or had to work their balls off to become citizens like my family did. We should drug test people on welfare because if you can afford drugs, you can afford food. The reason I never went on food stamps despite qualifying is because I can still afford to buy beers if I want them, and if I have that extra $8 and have to choose between beers and two solid meals, I'm taking the meals. Ugh I'm so frustrated and I'm ready to leave.

[Roy Karrde]

Sooo let me get this straight, you are pro gay marriage, anti illegal immigration, pro drug testing welfare recipients, anti foreign aid, and support the troops.

Not only do you describe yourself as a right leaning libertarian, you would fit right in with the majority of the Tea Party.

Now why do you hate the GOP so much and support the Democrats so much?

[Jeff]

I hate to be "that guy", but I really feel that the Tea Party has become the victim of either a biased or misinformed media, which continues to portray it as a right-wing extremist group.

[Roy Karrde]

I hate to be "that guy", but I really feel that the Tea Party has become the victim of either a biased or misinformed media, which continues to portray it as a right-wing extremist group.

Yes the Tea Party is a mix of Conservative Republicans, Libertarians, and even Conservative Democrats that remain united on fiscal issues and take a hands off stance on any social issues to keep unity on the fiscal issues.

[Magmar]

I don't really consider myself aligned with any one party, because nobody can seem to agree on anything, even within their own parties. I think the most important issue is focusing on America taking care of Americans. Most Democrats I know are opposed to illegal immigration. I've taken ideas from all across the spectrum and came up with a few of my own. Also, just about everyone I know supports the troops themselves. I'm very against the war but I will always support the men and women fighting for the country. How could you not? They're heroes in my eyes. I know Democrats, Republicans, Socialists and even anarchists who support our heroes overseas.

Edit: Isn't that the whole point of being able to vote on issues in the first place? Everyone has their own voice. It shouldn't be about a democrat vote and a republican vote. It should be about your vote. I completely disagree with the concept of family values and a nuclear family. My nuclear family was really shitty. I know many people from wonderful "broken" homes. Sometimes broken is easily fixed.

[Roy Karrde]

Well as human beings we tend to group and categorize things. Your beliefs from what I can see, seem to be more in line with Libertarianism ( Which granted is basically as you said a mix of Democrat and Republican views, that leans slightly right ), the Illegal Immigrant opposition is very far out of line with the views of the Democratic party right now, especially with their reliance on the Hispanic vote, as well as open borders and amnesty. As for supporting the troops, you would be surprised how many still believe that every soldier is some baby killing nut job that goes out everyday to murder Arabs.

[Deadwood_Zen]

Well, how do you define pro-/anti-illegal immigration?

Seriously, I will not argue with you on a lot of political topics, but how can you not support the troops? I'm one of those slight anarchists Magmar was talking about. They're overseas getting shot at and bombed just so we all can bitch about our governments on the internet and go to sleep being safe. Whether you support the wars or don't('cause I sure as hell don't), you should support the troops. You don't know what they go through, and if you can't(ESPECIALLY if you can't) do that and make that sacrifice, then don't complain about our soldiers.

[Gavin Luper]

I'm glad I have your vote, blademaster. Today's politicians need a massive ass beating. Seriously. All they do is bitch and won't hear each other out. As a gay man who wants to marry someday, these bastards just keep trying to take away my right to liberty and the pursuit of happiness, and for what reward?? What is their big loss if I get married?? So yes, I'm personally vested in kicking GOP ass whenever I can, although not all Republicans are like that, and some Democrats are. Basically, what I do in my home is my private business. I can't comprehend why some people want to interfere with that. All people are doing today is getting divorced anyway. There's a minority population that wants marriage and these assholes are too busy telling us no. Meanwhile they are turning around and cheating on their wives and screwing gay prostitutes in bathrooms thinking nobody will ever find out. We wouldn't care if it wasn't for the hypocrisy.

This. But for Australia.

We have a female, Atheist, allegedly "left-wing" Prime Minister living in a de-facto relationship with her boyfriend, and she's too much of a bitch to even come up with a reason for opposing gay marriage. She just ignores the fuck out of everyone who protests about it and when it's brought to her attention that the entire fucking country is debating the issue and the overwhelming majority support it, she patronises the fuck out of them by saying some shit like "well, I disagree, but it's nice for them to discuss ideas, isn't it?"

I have so much hate for the woman that it's difficult to not make this post just a string of cleverly-arranged swear words.

[Magmar]

The overwhelming majority of Americans support gay marriage now, too! Finally :) And the vast majority, like even more, would be alright with civil unions. I bet the remaining 25 percent are Pentecostals/Baptists, or not very intelligent to begin with. Not that all Pentecostals/Baptists are narrow minded, of course. But Catholic sermons, for example, are usually very linear and follow a guide, and that guide doesn't usually involve current events as it's older than time itself. It's elsewhere that people scream at you that gays are an abomination. And while the Catholic church has "a voice" from the Vatican that disagrees with gay marriage... Most Catholics in the USA aren't that hardcore about it. Most Catholics (not all but most) are part of ethnic groups in which family traditions like simply identifying yourself as Catholic are important, such as those of Mediterranean descent like me :P

[Gavin Luper]

The overwhelming majority of Americans support gay marriage now, too! Finally :) And the vast majority, like even more, would be alright with civil unions. I bet the remaining 25 percent are Pentecostals/Baptists, or not very intelligent to begin with. Not that all Pentecostals/Baptists are narrow minded, of course. But Catholic sermons, for example, are usually very linear and follow a guide, and that guide doesn't usually involve current events as it's older than time itself. It's elsewhere that people scream at you that gays are an abomination. And while the Catholic church has "a voice" from the Vatican that disagrees with gay marriage... Most Catholics in the USA aren't that hardcore about it. Most Catholics (not all but most) are part of ethnic groups in which family traditions like simply identifying yourself as Catholic are important, such as those of Mediterranean descent like me :P

You're a wog, too? What's your background? Sicilian here.

And yes, I get what you mean by the family tradition thing. Raised in an enormous Catholic Italian family here - in the middle of regional Australia to boot. Not exactly open-minded central. Luckily, my immediate family is totally liberal and so are most of my mates.

PS. Not sure if you use the word 'wog' for people of Mediterranean descent in the US, but that's what it means ...

[Dark Sage]

My dad is a political science professor. According to him, the Republicans' victory last year will quickly become known as the biggest political pyrric victory in the strongest sense of the word if the status quo remains the way it is.

[Mew Master]

And this is the reason I want to move to a country with more sanity... Like Canada or Japan. o.o

[Dark Sage]

And this is the reason I want to move to a country with more sanity... Like Canada or Japan. o.o

The frightening part is, you have a point.

[Mew Master]

Yeah, them crazy-sane Kanucks and Asians eh?

[Roy Karrde]

Okay Magmar, seriously your heart is eating your brain here, you are passionate about a topic, that is great. But words have meaning, and passion can easily turn into hyperbole. The "overwhelming majority" of Americans do not support Gay Marriage, according to Gallup the number is at 53% which is within the margin of error of not even being a majority, but a plurality. If you want to be a politician you need to shy away from inflammatory hyperbolic statements, or else you will have a very short career ala the former Congressman Alan Grayson.

Dark Sage I wonder how your father came to that conclusion. Obviously the Republicans are not going to pull off such a massive victory again any time soon. I mean it has only happened once in 80 years. But with this victory they gained alot of ground in Governorships, and the State Legislature. Seeing how that controls redistricting, and the census is switching power to the South, the Republicans have a very big oppertunity to cement their hold, and make inroads into Democratic held areas.

Now the only problem I see, is that the Republicans are stuck now with the duty of reforming entitlements before they destroy our economy. But really that should have started back in 2005 when Bush tried.

[Dark Sage]

Roy, just look at the facts.

In Wisconsin, one state where the GOP won a lot of ground, the people are calling for recall elections. That's how good they're doing now.

The GOP keeps asking "where are the jobs?" How many job-creation bills has the GOP-run House proposed? Zero. All they ever do is try to discredit the President and try to pin the blame for everything on him.

I swear, Roy, you just can't see the forest for the trees.

[Roy Karrde]

Roy, just look at the facts.

In Wisconsin, one state where the GOP won a lot of ground, the people are calling for recall elections. That's how good they're doing now.

Yes but that is also before redistricting has set in, something that some believe would make those recalls null and void as you shift the demographics in the districts being recalled. Not to mention look at the results, two school districts already are reporting major gains, including a ability to reduce the size of classes.

http://washingtonexaminer.com/politics/2011/06/union-curbs-rescue-wisconsin-school-district


The GOP keeps asking "where are the jobs?" How many job-creation bills has the GOP-run House proposed? Zero. All they ever do is try to discredit the President and try to pin the blame for everything on him.

Well if you havn't noticed we have had a little problem with the debt, and before that had a little bit of a problem with the budget being passed. Things might be a bit easier if we hadn't wasted over a trillion dollars in a failed stimulus.

[Dark Sage]

No, Roy, things would be easier if the GOPTP would be willing to accept a compromise.

[Roy Karrde]

No, Roy, things would be easier if the GOPTP would be willing to accept a compromise.

On what? Increasing taxes? Right now we have a stagnant economy, one that is not producing growth, and sure as hell is not producing jobs. Increasing taxes right now takes money out of the economy, in turn that takes money out of investments, and out of jobs.

But if you want cold hard facts, look at this, Obama right now has a approval rating between 44 and 42% one that is right now defying political gravity and is destined to drop like a stone as long as this economy continues to slug along. In the next election the Democrats are going to have far more seats to defend than the Republicans in the Senate, the Republicans have a very good opportunity to not only pick up a majority in the Senate, but the Presidency as well. And with redistricting, solidify their hold in the house.

[Dark Sage]

And what's the GOP's approval rating? Hmm? I want a link to a reliable source this time.

[Roy Karrde]

And what's the GOP's approval rating? Hmm? I want a link to a reliable source this time.

Does it matter? In terms of Presidential politics the Generic Republican is doing better than Obama. Both parties rating is in the tank, but the GOP is having to make some hard choices right now with the debt, and trying to keep this economy from going off a cliff in the future. Including reforming entitlements.

[Dark Sage]

But Roy, the thing is, none of the current Republican candidates is a "generic Republican". They're all a bunch of fools.

You really think the people are going to elect another candidate from Texas? This guy seems no better than the Bushes.

You may think that people have high opinions of the GOP, but since January, the blame against Mr. Obama on the news message boards has quickly been replaced by blame against the GOP. I've seen it myself. The insults against him have all but stopped, and the Tea Party fan clubs seem to have disbanded. People don't jump to blame Obama whenever there's a crisis anymore. They blame the GOP.

If you don't believe me, click on any news story about the debt crisis, and read the comments.

[Roy Karrde]

But Roy, the thing is, none of the current Republican candidates is a "generic Republican". They're all a bunch of fools.

You really think the people are going to elect another candidate from Texas? This guy seems no better than the Bushes.

This "Guy from Texas" has helped lead a economy that is the strongest in the nation and has pulled in a wealth of jobs and businesses. Like it or not, in a down economy that is what matters most. I mean look at the facts, 6 out of the top 20 recession proof cities, are in Texas alone. That alone shows the economy that Rick Perry has helped build here.

Edit: Some additional facts: More than half of U.S. net new jobs created from August 2009–2010 were in Texas, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. In November 2010, Texas had the lowest unemployment rate (8.2 percent) among the 10 largest states. And over the past year, Texas led the nation in energy, manufacturing, aerospace, professional and business services, and financial sector job growth.


You may think that people have high opinions of the GOP, but since January, the blame against Mr. Obama on the news message boards has quickly been replaced by blame against the GOP. I've seen it myself. The insults against him have all but stopped, and the Tea Party fan clubs seem to have disbanded. People don't jump to blame Obama whenever there's a crisis anymore. They blame the GOP.

Yet polls do not lie, right now Obama pulls in between a 44 and 42% approval rating, his approval of the economy is in the 30s. This isn't "News message boards" these are actual Gallup polling. If the economy continues along as it is, the bottom is going to drop out on him.


If you don't believe me, click on any news story about the debt crisis, and read the comments.

Yeah see I would rather look at polls, than focus on very partisan commenters who hang around in newsgroups.

[Dark Sage]

Yet polls do not lie, right now Obama pulls in between a 44 and 42% approval rating, his approval of the economy is in the 30s. This isn't "News message boards" these are actual Gallup polling. If the economy continues along as it is, the bottom is going to drop out on him.

Are you kidding me? I started this thread because of a poll, remember? A poll where Michelle Bachmann seemed to have about 80% approval.

And by the way, in 2007, I saw lots of polls that predicted victory for McCain, including one completely ridiculous one that predicted that he would win every single state, something that has been done by only one President - George Washington.

Statistics don't lie, Roy, but liars do use statistics.

[Blademaster]

I'm glad I have your vote, blademaster. Today's politicians need a massive ass beating. Seriously. All they do is bitch and won't hear each other out. As a gay man who wants to marry someday, these bastards just keep trying to take away my right to liberty and the pursuit of happiness, and for what reward?? What is their big loss if I get married?? So yes, I'm personally vested in kicking GOP ass whenever I can, although not all Republicans are like that, and some Democrats are. Basically, what I do in my home is my private business. I can't comprehend why some people want to interfere with that. All people are doing today is getting divorced anyway. There's a minority population that wants marriage and these assholes are too busy telling us no. Meanwhile they are turning around and cheating on their wives and screwing gay prostitutes in bathrooms thinking nobody will ever find out. We wouldn't care if it wasn't for the hypocrisy. We're in the middle of an economic crisis. Why the fuck is all our money going to other countries? Why aren't we trying to stop illegal immigration? These illegal douchenuts are mooching all my tax dollar resources and I can't get services as a result. I'm still working in fucking retail and I'm 25 and have a very strong degree and other excellent credentials. I don't care what party says what, what we need to do is to bring our military home and give them jobs here, stop giving all our money away to foreign countries to maintain good relations because you know what? We're falling apart as a society. We're losing the battle to stay afloat and yet we are giving all our money away. I'm sorry your shitty third world country has natural disasters. Maybe you should try working instead of depending on me to finance you. I want my tax dollars to benefit me and my neighbors, the ones who either are citizens by birthright or had to work their balls off to become citizens like my family did. We should drug test people on welfare because if you can afford drugs, you can afford food. The reason I never went on food stamps despite qualifying is because I can still afford to buy beers if I want them, and if I have that extra $8 and have to choose between beers and two solid meals, I'm taking the meals. Ugh I'm so frustrated and I'm ready to leave.

http://www.skygifs.com/data/uploads/applause.gif

I know, I'm not contributing much. I'm just not in the mood for a political debate since it doesn't seem like ANYBODY knows how to be a politician. Our country has a bunch of big problems with really simple solutions, but nobody uses them.

[woz]

On what? Increasing taxes? Right now we have a stagnant economy, one that is not producing growth, and sure as hell is not producing jobs. Increasing taxes right now takes money out of the economy, in turn that takes money out of investments, and out of jobs.

hahaha are you for real?

and as for the comments that illegals are sucking up all your "tax dollars" do some research on the subject.

[Roy Karrde]

And by the way, in 2007, I saw lots of polls that predicted victory for McCain, including one completely ridiculous one that predicted that he would win every single state, something that has been done by only one President - George Washington.

Statistics don't lie, Roy, but liars do use statistics.

Using polls from the 2008 election and comparing them to now is a problem, for one no one knew the economy was going to take a tail spin in late 2008, that alone helped Obama's political fortunes. Second, in that election there was no incumbent running for the Presidency. Right now Obama is the incumbent, and unless the economy suddenly brightens up big time, he is going to have a very hard, hard time running for re election in a down economy. Especially when his handling of the economy is in the 30s.


hahaha are you for real?

Yes are you?


and as for the comments that illegals are sucking up all your "tax dollars" do some research on the subject.

I live in Dallas county, where one of the largest city/state financed hospitals in Texas has a wait time of around 18 hours, and services the pregnancies of tens of thousands of illegals each year. All for free. I know a little bit about what is helping suck up our tax dollars.

[Dark Sage]

You live in Texas, Roy?

Well, I'm done here. Trying to convince a Texan that a Democrat stands a chance is like trying to hit the moon with a water pistol.

[Roy Karrde]

You live in Texas, Roy?

Well, I'm done here. Trying to convince a Texan that a Democrat stands a chance is like trying to hit the moon with a water pistol.

Yes I live in Texas but I also study politics, which is why I have been able to lay out fact upon fact against you. Things can change, they can and Obama can pull off a victory, it is very hard to get a sitting President out of office unless the economy really really stinks, and the opponent is very very good. But you put a good candidate against Obama, and use Bill Clinton's old line of "It's the economy stupid". And suddenly things are not looking good for a second Obama term.

But you know what, I started off asking why your father thought the victory was a Pyrrhic victory. It was curious in light of the facts. So far you still have not provided a actual answer to that question.

[Dark Sage]

He's the one who posted it on his facebook page. And like I said, he has the MA in Political Science. He's the one who taught it as the Chairman of Social Sciences of Shepaug High School for most of his life. I'm willing to bet any amount of money that he studies politics far more than you do.

Edit: By the way, He has also accurately predicted the winners of every Presidential election since I was ten years old, even the ones where candidates he didn't like or vote for were elected.

[Roy Karrde]

He's the one who posted it on his facebook page. And like I said, he has the MA in Political Science. He's the one who taught it as the Chairman of Social Sciences of Shepaug High School for most of his life. I'm willing to bet any amount of money that he studies politics far more than you do.

He probably does, but I am just curious of his reasons, to see if he actually has a point, or it is just partisan fluff.

[Dark Sage]

He said that the GOP is stubbornly sticking to their goals, even though it will cause them to lose in the end.

Then he said, on the debt crisis:


I think something will be resolved before the deadline, but I am very concerned about the health of our government, its politics and of our culture. I don't think politicians have the right to demand that their ideologies be honored at the ...expense of the welfare of the country as a whole. People need to sit up and pay attention to what is going on. This nonsense is getting close to hurting the people who can least afford it. Just listen to what is being said to justify radical positions.

In other words, he thinks that the GOP doesn't care who they hurt, so long as they get their way. And I agree with them.

[Roy Karrde]

He said that the GOP is stubbornly sticking to their goals, even though it will cause them to lose in the end.

Possibly, probably not, unless something massive happens with the debt ceiling and causes us to default, the political battles right now will be a long lost memory by election day next year. Then again the same could be said for Obama, and he, not the GOP will be up for election on election day.


In other words, he thinks that the GOP doesn't care who they hurt, so long as they get their way. And I agree with them.

So far I do not see anything specifically targeting the GOP in there, but both parties. Remember it takes two to tango, and Obama has been known to be absolutely hard headed to a fault. And has shown it on this debt ceiling debate.

[woz]

tell us how raising taxes on the rich would take money out of the economy, Roy. i'm interested to know if you know how economics and capitalism work or you're just full of right-wing garbage.

[Roy Karrde]

tell us how raising taxes on the rich would take money out of the economy, Roy. i'm interested to know if you know how economics and capitalism work or you're just full of right-wing garbage.

I believe I explained it in my last post, you want the rich to spend, you want them to invest, you want them to grow the economy, you want them to create jobs. Sending more money in through taxes, takes that investment money, and goes straight to the Government... for what? Another failed stimulus? To pay off our debt? To pay for more Government programs to study radioactive rabbit turds?

[Magmar]

Okay Magmar, seriously your heart is eating your brain here, you are passionate about a topic, that is great. But words have meaning, and passion can easily turn into hyperbole. The "overwhelming majority" of Americans do not support Gay Marriage, according to Gallup the number is at 53% which is within the margin of error of not even being a majority, but a plurality. If you want to be a politician you need to shy away from inflammatory hyperbolic statements, or else you will have a very short career ala the former Congressman Alan Grayson.


Fortunately for you, then, I have no intentions on becoming a politician in the near future! My political career has spanned student parliament, lol, in which I did win awards for being the most active member and was notorious for being the loud mouth who would come up with the solution that went against option A and option B, and usually winning. :D I guess in terms of being a politician, what I would have going for me is that a., I'm honest all of the time, which helps me not fumble with words and b., I have mad public speaking skills, yo. ;) You know if 53 percent of Americans support equal rights for gay Americans, shouldn't that be a wakeup call for these politicians? Like hey, listen, represent all the people, not just yourself. That's where I always try to stand.

@Gavin: Yes, I am Sicilian and Irish, but mostly raised exclusively by my Sicilian side so don't really have many Irish qualities. I have heard 'wog' used before, but here they say 'wop' more often. I like to combine it and say I'm a McWhopper:partyhat:

[Roy Karrde]

Fortunately for you, then, I have no intentions on becoming a politician in the near future! My political career has spanned student parliament, lol, in which I did win awards for being the most active member and was notorious for being the loud mouth who would come up with the solution that went against option A and option B, and usually winning. :D I guess in terms of being a politician, what I would have going for me is that a., I'm honest all of the time, which helps me not fumble with words and b., I have mad public speaking skills, yo. ;) You know if 53 percent of Americans support equal rights for gay Americans, shouldn't that be a wakeup call for these politicians? Like hey, listen, represent all the people, not just yourself. That's where I always try to stand.

It should be, but mind you that is across America, that percentage will vary from state to state where politicians usually are elected. And even district by district. Which really goes to the idea of either having a final marriage law passed by the Government, or allow each state to make and change their marriage laws based on what the public demands.

[woz]

I believe I explained it in my last post, you want the rich to spend, you want them to invest, you want them to grow the economy, you want them to create jobs. Sending more money in through taxes, takes that investment money, and goes straight to the Government... for what? Another failed stimulus? To pay off our debt? To pay for more Government programs to study radioactive rabbit turds?

lmao so you're chatting shite and don't know what youre talking about. got it. stop talking absolute rubbish and spouting your right wing bullshit about topics you have no idea about. TAX DOLLARS SPENT ON RADIOACTIVE RABBIT TURD RESEARCH!! get a fucking grip you utter clown.

[Roy Karrde]

lmao so you're chatting shite and don't know what youre talking about. got it. stop talking absolute rubbish and spouting your right wing bullshit about topics you have no idea about. TAX DOLLARS SPENT ON RADIOACTIVE RABBIT TURD RESEARCH!! get a fucking grip you utter clown.


“A Week Mapping Radioactive Rabbit Feces With Detectors Mounted On A Helicopter Flying 50 Feet Over The Desert Scrub. … $300,000 In Federal Stimulus Money.” “A government contractor at Hanford, in south-central Washington State, just spent a week mapping radioactive rabbit feces with detectors mounted on a helicopter flying 50 feet over the desert scrub. … the helicopter flights, which covered 13.7 square miles and were paid for with $300,000 in federal stimulus money, took place in an area that had never been used by the bomb makers. … Marylia Kelley, the executive director of a California group called Tri-Valley Communities Against a Radioactive Environment, said the rabbit cleanup was ‘kind of funny, in a sick way.’” (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/15/science/earth/15rabbit.html?_r=2&hp)

Umm... you were saying?

[woz]

your words: study radioactive rabbit turds
article: part of a nuclear cleanup

also, carry on with the article quote:

"The area had, however, been used by rabbits that had also burrowed into other areas that were contaminated. Many of the contaminants were in the form of salts, which attract wildlife. The rabbits carried strontium and cesium, which emit gamma rays, back out of the area in their digestive tracts.

The flights were far less expensive than other strategies, said Dee Millikin, a spokeswoman for the contractor, a subsidiary of the engineering and environmental consulting company CH2M Hill.

Walking through the area with radiation detectors would have taken eight months longer and cost $1 million, she said."

you silly twat.

[ChobiChibi]

woz, man, don't let him get to you. That way he wins.

[woz]

i just skim his posts and roll my eyes tbh, it's funny to see him try and justify his retarded opinions with what he calls "facts".

then complains about 300,000 dollars spent when the article states it's cost tens of billions and expects to continue for decades.

its a good laugh

[Roy Karrde]

i just skim his posts and roll my eyes tbh, it's funny to see him try and justify his retarded opinions with what he calls "facts".


Feel free to debunk anything I say.


your words: study radioactive rabbit turds
article: part of a nuclear cleanup

also, carry on with the article quote:

"The area had, however, been used by rabbits that had also burrowed into other areas that were contaminated. Many of the contaminants were in the form of salts, which attract wildlife. The rabbits carried strontium and cesium, which emit gamma rays, back out of the area in their digestive tracts.

The flights were far less expensive than other strategies, said Dee Millikin, a spokeswoman for the contractor, a subsidiary of the engineering and environmental consulting company CH2M Hill.

Walking through the area with radiation detectors would have taken eight months longer and cost $1 million, she said."

you silly twat.


then complains about 300,000 dollars spent when the article states it's cost tens of billions and expects to continue for decades.

its a good laugh

Maybe you missed the "Stimulus" part, the "Stimulus" was to grow "Jobs" not provide a low flying aircraft to study or clean up radioactive rabbit turds.

[woz]

it did create a job. for consulting company CH2M Hill. that's the "free market". this is piss poor even for you, roy.

[Roy Karrde]

it did create a job. for consulting company CH2M Hill. that's the "free market". this is piss poor even for you, roy.

So we spent 300,000 dollars on a single job, congrats that shows why the Stimulus was such a failure.

By the way if it were the free market it would be created with out Government funds. I think you need a better grasp on what the free market is.

[woz]

- stimulus creates job
- job is bid for by private companies
- done by a private company contracted by the government
- done far more efficiently, cheaper and quicker than if done by hand
- roy complains that stimulus failed

i think you need a better grasp on everything.

[Roy Karrde]

- stimulus creates job
- job is bid for by private companies
- done by a private company contracted by the government
- done far more efficiently, cheaper and quicker than if done by hand
- roy complains that stimulus failed

i think you need a better grasp on everything.

Unless of course it was given as a no bid contract, which is what happens when you appropriate money via congressional districts. But then again your list is not a example of free market economics as you tried to say the job was. A Free Market job would be one made by demand by not the Government, but private enterprise and by private citizens, it would be funded by private, not public money.

But if you do not believe the Stimulus failed...


In sum, this empirical examination of the direct effects of the three countercyclical stimulus packages of the 2000s indicates that they did not have a positive effect on consumption and government purchases, and thus did not counter the decline in investment during the recessions as the basic Keynesian textbook model would suggest. Individuals and families largely saved the transfers and tax rebates. The federal government increased purchases, but by only an immaterial amount. State and local governments used the stimulus grants to reduce their net borrowing (largely by acquiring more financial assets) rather than to increase expenditures, and they shifted expenditures away from purchases toward transfers.

Some argue that the economy would have been worse off without these stimulus packages, but the results do not support that view. According to the empirical estimates of the impact of ARRA, if there had been no temporary stimulus payments to individuals or families, their total consumption would have been about the same. And if there had been no ARRA grants to states and localities, their total expenditures would have been about the same. The counterfactual simulations show that the ARRA-induced decline in state and local government purchases was larger than the increase in federal government purchases due to ARRA. In terms of the simple example of Model A versus Model B presented above, these results are evidence against the views represented by Model A, and thus against using such models to show that things would have been worse.

Others argue that the stimulus was too small, but the results do not lend support to that view either. Using the estimated equations, a counterfactual simulation of a larger stimulus package—with the proportions going to state and local grants, federal purchases, and transfers to individual the same as in ARRA—would show little change in government purchases or consumption, as the temporary funds would be largely saved.

http://johnbtaylorsblog.blogspot.com/2011/07/no-bigger-stimulus-would-not-have.html

Or as James Pethokoukis at Reuters sums it up.


Indeed, the results are horrifying. The two-year-old recovery’s terrible tale of the tape: A 9.1 percent unemployment rate that’s probably closer to 16 percent counting the discouraged and underemployed, the worst income growth and weakest GDP growth of any upturn since World War II, a still-weakening housing market. Oh, and a trillion bucks down the tube. Oh, and two-and-a-half years … and counting … wasted during which time the skills of unemployed workers continue to erode and the careers of younger Americans suffer long-term income damage. Losing the future.

Next, add in healthcare reform that Medicare’s chief actuary says will not slow the overall growth of healthcare spending. (Even its Obama administration godfather, Peter Orszag, warns that “more drastic measures may ultimately be needed.”) And toss in a financial reform plan that the outspoken and independent president of the Kansas City Fed says he “can’t imagine” working. “I don’t have faith in it all.” Indeed, markets continue to treat the biggest banks as if they are still too big to fail.

But wait there’s more. Obama created a debt commission that produced a reasonable though imperfect plan to deal with America’s long-term fiscal woes. But he stiffed it and then failed to supply a plan of his own, sowing the seeds for an impending debt ceiling crisis and making an eventual fiscal fix that much harder. One more step along the path not taken, along with pro-growth tax and regulatory policies that would have reduced policy and economic uncertainty and unleashed the private sector to invest, expand and create.

http://blogs.reuters.com/james-pethokoukis/2011/07/06/obama-really-might-have-made-it-worse/

Then again anyone with a brain knows that the Stimulus failed, we remain at 9.2% Unemployment, Underemployment around 16%, and stagnant growth. The states took the money and used it to fill in gaps that lasted about a year and then they let people go. The money that went to programs went to pet projects like the Rabbit Turd one, and not to ones that were targeted to help the economy and help growth.

[woz]

conveniently ignores the massive Bush tax cuts that lead to a loss of 8 million jobs but sure

nuclear cleanup isn't a "pet project" either but keep plugging away at it.

[Roy Karrde]

conveniently ignores the massive Bush tax cuts that lead to a loss of 8 million jobs but sure

The Bush Tax Cuts lead to the loss of 8 million jobs? Humor me by explaining how.


nuclear cleanup isn't a "pet project" either but keep plugging away at it.

It isn't a project that stimulates the economy or job creation either.

[woz]

from the big charade of it "increasing investment" and "creating 5 million jobs" which led to absolutely none of it, a whole bunch of sectors, mainly the manufacturing industry jobs being gone altogether. the jobs he created were low paying, service and retail, etc and the jobs that people had before didn't exist anymore.

so nuclear cleanup should just be left on the back burner?

[Magmar]

I love reading this political debate! Really. Keep opening my eyes to different opinions coming from people I respect as intelligent. I'm sick of comments boxes on news articles.

Now, I'm not totally against everything to do with Republicans, but I have to admit, I'm glad Fox News is going down the shitter. It just takes one glance at politifact (http://www.politifact.com) to understand why. What I love most about that site? It has a whole section devoted to the fucked up politics of Rhode Island! Read up on it if you want to know what kind of wacky things happen in my little home state. It's surely good for a chuckle. Fortunately I vote in the Smithfield district which is rarely if ever newsworthy for being retarded in the least.

[Roy Karrde]

from the big charade of it "increasing investment" and "creating 5 million jobs" which led to absolutely none of it, a whole bunch of sectors, mainly the manufacturing industry jobs being gone altogether. the jobs he created were low paying, service and retail, etc and the jobs that people had before didn't exist anymore.

The manufacturing industry has been failing and will continue to fail until we put in very big incentives to drive companies away from cheap labor in China and Mexico. By the way the Bush Tax Cuts did in turn help the economy come out from the recession brought on by the .Com Bubble and 9/11. Still waiting for that loss of 8 million jobs being the tax cut's fault.


so nuclear cleanup should just be left on the back burner?

When it is radioactive rabbit turds, it can wait until we have more important things fixed, like the economy and unemployment.


I'm not totally against everything to do with Republicans, but I have to admit, I'm glad Fox News is going down the shitter.

So having the best nightly ratings of the three news networks constitutes going down the shitter? Damn I would hate to see where you think MSNBC or CNN is right now.

[woz]

lol wow you really are serious. you're living in cuckoo land if you think "tax cuts" will drive companies away from cheap labour. he lost around 8 million jobs in all sectors, especially manufacturing and the jobs he "created" as i've said were basic non-jobs. bush tax cuts were a massive failure, the rich got richer and the poor got poorer. companies posted record profits and paid little to no tax, wages and benefits for workers stagnated. but yeah great success.

maybe you didn't read the article, but it's been going on for a long time and is projected to go on for even longer, so it's part of an ongoing process that would have to be done eventually.

[Roy Karrde]

lol wow you really are serious. you're living in cuckoo land if you think "tax cuts" will drive companies away from cheap labour.

Actually I think various incentives including low business taxes could be used to bring business here.


l he lost around 8 million jobs in all sectors, especially manufacturing and the jobs he "created" as i've said were basic non-jobs.

Which wasn't the fault of the tax cuts.


lbush tax cuts were a massive failure, the rich got richer and the poor got poorer. companies posted record profits and paid little to no tax, wages and benefits for workers stagnated. but yeah great success.

Massive failure? GDP grew at an annual rate of just 1.7 percent in the six quarters before the 2003 tax cuts. In the six quarters following the tax cuts, the growth rate was 4.1 percent.

Non-residential fixed investment declined for 13 consecutive quarters before the 2003 tax cuts. Since then, it has expanded for 13 consecutive quarters.
The S&P 500 dropped 18 percent in the six quarters before the 2003 tax cuts but increased by 32 percent over the next six quarters. Dividend payouts increased as well.

The economy lost 267,000 jobs in the six quarters before the 2003 tax cuts. In the next six quarters, it added 307,000 jobs, followed by 5 million jobs in the next seven quarters.

Doesn't sound like a failure to me. By the way the poor and rich have both gotten richer, and the tax cuts benefited all income classes.


lmaybe you didn't read the article, but it's been going on for a long time and is projected to go on for even longer, so it's part of an ongoing process that would have to be done eventually.

And as such it should have been voted on as a separate bill, not from Stimulus funds meant to help our economy and provide job growth.

[woz]

pasting shit from the heritage foundation? seriously? hahaha holy shit. that crap has been debunked, google it up.

[Roy Karrde]

pasting shit from the heritage foundation? seriously? hahaha holy shit. that crap has been debunked, google it up.

Going to debunk any of the economic numbers?

[woz]

firstly a net creation of 40000 jobs in 6 quarters is terrible. i notice it doesnt mention what happens next.

secondly the s&p 500 angle is garbage because of the dot com crash. completely useless statistic. extra dividends paid to rich people? wow a real crowning achievement.

pnfi? lol. a junk statistic. it expanded every quarter from 1992 to 2001. that biased pile of trash article is from 2007. lets not forget this great heritage foundation predicted bush's tax cuts would wipe out the deficit by 2011. it's terrible. fact is he created 3 million jobs the entire time he was in office. a garbage record.

[Roy Karrde]

firstly a net creation of 40000 jobs in 6 quarters is terrible. i notice it doesnt mention what happens next.

You missed the next line of the economy creating 5 million in the next 7. We went from negative job creation to positive, to the economy quickly jumping back to life.


secondly the s&p 500 angle is garbage because of the dot com crash. completely useless statistic. extra dividends paid to rich people? wow a real crowning achievement.

The .com crash happened before the tax cuts. And you realize more than rich people put money into the stock market right? Now days it goes to almost everyone who invest with their 401ks and other forms of retirement.


pnfi? lol. a junk statistic. it expanded every quarter from 1992 to 2001. that biased pile of trash article is from 2007. lets not forget this great heritage foundation predicted bush's tax cuts would wipe out the deficit by 2011. it's terrible. fact is he created 3 million jobs the entire time he was in office. a garbage record.

I assume you are subtracting the jobs from the Democrat created economic collapse to come to the 3 million job figure. Because other than that the 5 million in 7 quarters pretty much wipes out that claim.

[woz]

"Democrat created economic collapse" you're a nutjob.

http://www.bls.gov/schedule/archives/empsit_nr.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobs_created_during_U.S._presidential_terms
http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2009/01/09/bush-on-jobs-the-worst-track-record-on-record/

the Heritage Foundation are a joke.

they put out shit like this:
http://i.imgur.com/VJQ6S.jpg

without a hint of irony.

never mind the 45 year linear forecast graph, that somehow taxes have a direct linear relationship with gdp, that the graph starts in 1975 and multitude of other comical things you still think they're a credible source with their "calculations" debunked time and time again. they're not credible and they never have been, come back with some proper stuff.

next you'll spout on about the laffer curve, reaganomics or other such bullshit. it's hilarious that you've bought into the right-wing propaganda though.

[Roy Karrde]

"Democrat created economic collapse" you're a nutjob.


Snipping out the crap because well that is what it is, crap.

Yes the Democrats created the economic collapse, from the push in the Clinton era to push Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to make banks make more low income loans, to the Bush Administration several warnings that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac's program was going to kill our economy, to the Democrats saying there were no problem with these programs. And then finally the ultimate insult, the Democratic Party in the Senate, including Senator Barack Obama threatening a filibuster if the Republicans tried to pass legislation to stop these toxic loans. You want to point fingers as to why job creation went into the sewers in the last few months of Bush's presidency to lower that number. Start by pointing it at Barnie Frank and Harry Reid.

[woz]

come on, prove that the graph is truthful.

[Roy Karrde]

come on, prove that the graph is truthful.

The graph has nothing to do with anything I posted, because why the graph is born out of guessing economic futures, my information was provided by provable economic facts and numbers that came out of those years.

[woz]

Conclusion: What is Poverty?
In 2010, the U.S. Census Bureau declared that one in seven Americans lived “in poverty.” Catholic Charities has declared, “The existence of such widespread poverty amidst such enormous wealth is a moral and social wound in the soul of the country.”

To the average American, the word “poverty” implies significant material deprivation, an inability to provide a family with adequate nutritious food, reasonable shelter, and clothing. Activists reinforce this view, declaring that being poor in the U.S. means being “unable to obtain the basic material necessities of life.” The news media amplify this idea: Most news stories on poverty feature homeless families, people living in crumbling shacks, or lines of the downtrodden eating in soup kitchens.

The actual living conditions of America’s poor are far different from these images. In 2005, the typical household defined as poor by the government had a car and air conditioning. For entertainment, the household had two color televisions, cable or satellite TV, a DVD player, and a VCR. If there were children, especially boys, in the home, the family had a game system, such as an Xbox or PlayStation. In the kitchen, the household had a refrigerator, an oven and stove, and a microwave. Other household conveniences included a clothes washer, a clothes dryer, ceiling fans, a cordless phone, and a coffee maker.

The home of the typical poor family was not overcrowded and was in good repair. The family was able to obtain medical care when needed. By its own report, the family was not hungry and had sufficient funds during the past year to meet all essential needs.

Poor families clearly struggle to make ends meet, but in most cases, they are struggling to pay for air conditioning and cable TV while putting food on the table. The current recession has increased the number of Americans who are poor, but it does not appear to have greatly reduced the living standards of the average poor family.

True, the average poor family does not represent every poor family. There is a range of living conditions among the poor. Some poor households fare better than the average household described above. Others are worse off. Although the overwhelming majority of the poor are well housed, at any single point in time during the recession in 2009, around one in 70 poor persons was homeless. Although the majority of poor families have an adequate and reasonably steady supply of food, many worry about keeping food on the table, and one in five experienced temporary food shortages at various times in 2009.

Those who are without food or homeless will find no comfort in the fact that their condition is relatively infrequent. Their distress is real and a serious concern.
Nonetheless, wise public policy cannot be based on misinformation or misunderstanding. Anti-poverty policy must be based on an accurate assessment of actual living conditions and the causes of deprivation. In the long term, grossly exaggerating the extent and severity of material deprivation in the U.S. will benefit neither the poor, the economy, nor society as a whole.

the heritage foundation:

youve got a colour tv and a coffee machine? not poor, bootstraps your way to a better life. who cares about adequate schools, healthcare, spending time with parents/children etc, you've got a tv!!

[Roy Karrde]

the heritage foundation:

youve got a colour tv and a coffee machine? not poor, bootstraps your way to a better life. who cares about adequate schools, healthcare, spending time with parents/children etc, you've got a tv!!

I see you completely ignore what I was saying about how everything I posted was provable economic numbers, just as you ignore how I proved that the crisis was created by the Democratic party.

[woz]

and exactly, the graph is bullshit.

is the laffer curve credible, roy?

as for the democrats created a the crisis that's a load of bullshit and you know it. they played their part but the blame falls squarely on a lot of people. the fed reserve, congress, clinton administration, bush administration, alan greenspan, the real estate agents, mortgage brokers and wall street and a belief that house prices would keep rising forever

and claiming that one piece of legislation could cause this entire thing is bogus and insane.

[Roy Karrde]

and exactly, the graph is bullshit.

is the laffer curve credible, roy?

That there is a area in which higher taxes decrease revenue, and a area in which lower taxes decrease revenue, and that a adequate middle point should be found? Yes.


as for the democrats created a the crisis that's a load of bullshit and you know it. they played their part but the blame falls squarely on a lot of people. the fed reserve, congress, clinton administration, bush administration, alan greenspan, the real estate agents, mortgage brokers and wall street and a belief that house prices would keep rising forever

Which shows your ignorance. Banks were not making these loans until Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac guaranteed them and began to pump out hundreds of billions of dollars in toxic loans each year.


and claiming that one piece of legislation could cause this entire thing is bogus and insane.

It would have stopped the toxic loans at it's source, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, that would have kept the banks from going over which dominoed this entire crisis.

[woz]

seriously, you obviously don't know anything about economics. you've read what the right wing want you to read and lapped it up. i notice how you ignore me just proving it was a combination of many things.

the fed reserve cut interest rates after dot com crash, credit is cheap. congress supports mortgage tax cut which gives people incentives to buy pricier houses. real estate agents who i'm sure the majority work for sellers rather than buyers earn higher commissions from higher prices. clinton admin because they pushed for less credit/downpayment requirements. mortgage brokers offer subprime adjustable rate loans with low initial repayments followed by massive interest rates. alan greenspan for his comic comments during the housing bubble telling people to take out these mortgages. the bush admin failing to provide oversight to the hugely risky mortgage-backed sec market - wall street firms paying no attention to the quality of loans they bundled into mbs and issued bonds using mbs as collateral. add in the fact that people were deluded enough to believe that house prices would rise and rise forever and youve got one big mess. but feel free to disprove those points

[Roy Karrde]

seriously, you obviously don't know anything about economics. you've read what the right wing want you to read and lapped it up. i notice how you ignore me just proving it was a combination of many things.

Says the kiddo who just spent the last few posts ignoring everything I have said.


the fed reserve cut interest rates after dot com crash, credit is cheap. congress supports mortgage tax cut which gives people incentives to buy pricier houses. real estate agents who i'm sure the majority work for sellers rather than buyers earn higher commissions from higher prices.

All of which did not contribute to the toxic mortgages. A housing bubble? Sure that created a mild recession in 2007.


clinton admin because they pushed for less credit/downpayment requirements. mortgage brokers offer subprime adjustable rate loans with low initial repayments followed by massive interest rates.

You do realize those two are the same as the Clinton Administration pushed for the mortgage brokers to offer the subprime mortgages.


the bush admin failing to provide oversight to the hugely risky mortgage-backed sec market -

Would that be this oversight?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs

Or these calls for regulations?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMnSp4qEXNM&feature=related


add in the fact that people were deluded enough to believe that house prices would rise and rise forever and youve got one big mess. but feel free to disprove those points

Again while causing a housing market bubble, did not cause the economic crash.

[woz]

notice how he ignores the other points and goes for the democrat attack, republican defend option. do the other ones first please roy.

[Roy Karrde]

notice how he ignores the other points and goes for the democrat attack, republican defend option. do the other ones first please roy.

I deconstructed every point I saw that would reasonably lead to the economic crisis and the crap that would only lead to a housing bubble. But please ignore the fact that the Bush Administration warned many times that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac would destroy our economy if not effectively regulated. Just as Alan Greenspan said the same thing once we began to realize how large and powerful these GSE's are. Or that the Democrats were spouting the ignorant crap that there was no problem at Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac.

Oh and lets not forget Barnie Frank touting the Democratic line "There is no housing bubble" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iW5qKYfqALE&feature=related

[woz]

calm down roy. maybe you cant deconstruct the other points because you dont know what they mean or what youre talking about? stick to politics but try to watch something other than fox news and reading right-wing thinktank garbage.

[Roy Karrde]

calm down roy. maybe you cant deconstruct the other points because you dont know what they mean or what youre talking about? stick to politics but try to watch something other than fox news and reading right-wing thinktank garbage.

There is something funny if not ironic of you calling for me to calm down, and saying I cannot deconstruct points, when you have shifted from argument to argument, losing each one, and earlier on throwing out every single insult you could while I have calmly and rationally beaten you back. If this is how the debate is going to end that is fine with me.

[Magmar]

So having the best nightly ratings of the three news networks constitutes going down the shitter? Damn I would hate to see where you think MSNBC or CNN is right now.

Not being debunked left and right, that's where MSNBC and CNN are at... True they screw something up now and then, but it doesn't compare to the crock of shit on Fox. That's where I draw my line Roy. It's pathetic that your defense of Fox news is that it's the most popular. That's like saying because the Boston Red Sox gets the most TV views out of any baseball team, that they are the best team. It's unrelated to the degree of truth. Your argument is some kind of logical fallacy that I'm too lazy to look up and identify. Too bad Fox exaggerates shit and tell loads of lies. I don't see the so-called Liberal-biased media getting torn to shreds by all other media outlets because of their lies and scandals.

Just for fun! (http://www.politifact.com/search/?q=Fox+news) And on the subject biotch of the thread... (http://www.politifact.com/personalities/michele-bachmann/)

Oh, and here's a fun edit: As a couple of ya'll know, I take the bus, rather than drive. This is a very real issue affecting me right now, in that they are terminating service for most routes on the weekends and past 10 p.m. at night on some days (http://www.politifact.com/rhode-island/statements/2011/jun/28/charles-odimgbe/transit-ceo-says-rhode-island-bus-fares-are-most-e/) and cutting the one bus line that goes to northwest RI, where most of my family lives. I don't get any bus fare reductions as a graduate student :( And here I will say Politifact is a little misinformed, as when they talk about the bus rides from Westerly, etc.: There is only one park-n-ride bus in the morning and one in the evening to most of the South County communities, and most of the most distant towns from Providence receive little to no bus service at all. There is no bus to Tiverton or Little Compton, which is not the most distant by straight line but can only be accessed by traveling through Massachusetts; most towns off the Route 1-4-95 north-south corridor only get service in a brief corner of the town; and the entirety of western Rhode Island is serviced by one line that runs 5 times a day (Twice for early morning commute, one afternoon trip, and two evening commute trips). Having to rely on "the 9" sucks.

Finally, not that anyone wants to hear me rant about RI anymore, but this one is for those who may wonder where in the US the most illegal drug users per capita are (http://www.politifact.com/rhode-island/statements/2011/jun/09/ian-lang/social-service-provider-says-rhode-island-has-high/)... Surprise! 1 in 9 Rhode Islanders are an active drug user, apparently. I haven't read into it enough to state that as hard fact. But it seems about right.

[Roy Karrde]

Not being debunked left and right, that's where MSNBC and CNN are at... True they screw something up now and then, but it doesn't compare to the crock of shit on Fox. That's where I draw my line Roy. It's pathetic that your defense of Fox news is that it's the most popular. That's like saying because the Boston Red Sox gets the most TV views out of any baseball team, that they are the best team. It's unrelated to the degree of truth. Your argument is some kind of logical fallacy that I'm too lazy to look up and identify. Too bad Fox exaggerates shit and tell loads of lies. I don't see the so-called Liberal-biased media getting torn to shreds by all other media outlets because of their lies and scandals.

Yeah MSNBC... the network with a liberal bias so badly that it eclipses every other news network is not being debunked left and right, except for well you know, places like Newsbusters and such. Then again the left does not eat their own, as such it is much easier to go after Fox, than it is to beat up on MSNBC for it's lies and mis statements.

[woz]

debates usually involve rational thought, all you've done is quote a right-wing thinktank, regurgitate right-wing propaganda and refused to condemn literally anything that the republican party has done. it wasn't a debate it was you floundering to absolve your chosen party of any blame, pretend the laffer curve is credible (lol) and all it's done is make you look like a complete bellend. that's fine with me.

[Magmar]

Yeah MSNBC... the network with a liberal bias so badly that it eclipses every other news network is not being debunked left and right, except for well you know, places like Newsbusters and such. Then again the left does not eat their own, as such it is much easier to go after Fox, than it is to beat up on MSNBC for it's lies and mis statements.

Tehe, I rarely quote wikipedia, but this one is good:

The Project on Excellence in Journalism report in 2006[44] showed that 68 percent of Fox cable stories contained personal opinions, as compared to MSNBC at 27 percent and CNN at 4 percent. The "content analysis" portion of their 2005 report also concluded that "Fox was measurably more one-sided than the other networks, and Fox journalists were more opinionated on the air."[48]

[Roy Karrde]

Tehe, I rarely quote wikipedia, but this one is good:

The Project on Excellence in Journalism report in 2006[44] showed that 68 percent of Fox cable stories contained personal opinions, as compared to MSNBC at 27 percent and CNN at 4 percent. The "content analysis" portion of their 2005 report also concluded that "Fox was measurably more one-sided than the other networks, and Fox journalists were more opinionated on the air."[48]

Curious if that report was put together under the fact that many fox news stories during the day time provide debate from both sides ( The whole fair and balance thing started because of a mandate originally that both sides of the story had to be interviewed when it came to opinions ). Based strictly on the amount of Opinion Talk Shows which liter the evening, and not the strict news shows that take up the day time portion on all three networks. MSNBC has the most of the Bias Opinion Talk Shows, followed by Fox, and then CNN. But that is manly because Fox does a pretty strict news only show at the 6 and 7 time slot before Bill O'Reilly, and then has Gretta which is more of a "Topic of the day" news show, than a Opinion Talk Show at the 10 time slot.

And Woz, it really is getting to the point that I am feeling sorry for you, you have trolled through most of the thread, now it is getting sad.

[woz]

Roy Karrde: Fox News Watcher, Young White Republican, "Studies" Politics, Gets His World Views from Right-Wing Blogs/Thinktanks feels sorry for someone who doesn't do that.

lmao

this is too good

[Heald]

I literally woke up ten minutes after the last post in this thread, after having gone to bed, like, 8 hours before this point now.

Guys, you're shitting up this thread with MY POLITICS IS BETTER THAN YOUR POLITICS. You've both done nothing but prove one point; you disagree with each other. And congratulations, anyone who wanted to discuss the original topic now no longer wants to/cares.

If you want to piss on about Democunts or Republitards, take it to Mt Moon (the last 3 pages of this haven't even been Misc-worthy).

kthxbai

[Mew Master]

Your argument is some kind of logical fallacy that I'm too lazy to look up and identify.

Argument from Popularity. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_popularity)

It boils down to: "If the majority believes it, it must be true."

In context: "Lots of people like Nickleback, therefore Nickleback is good." (your millage may vary)

However, I don't think Fox News is that popular, since John Stewart is more popular than Fox. (http://www.politicususa.com/en/jon-stewart-fox-ratings) [sic]

Anyway, done politicking.. off to something more useful... like pulling tabs off of pillows.

[Gavin Luper]

@Gavin: Yes, I am Sicilian and Irish, but mostly raised exclusively by my Sicilian side so don't really have many Irish qualities. I have heard 'wog' used before, but here they say 'wop' more often. I like to combine it and say I'm a McWhopper:partyhat:

FORZA SICILIA!

Gnarly to find a fellow Siciliano. And I see what you did there ... McWhopper ... clever ...


I literally woke up ten minutes after the last post in this thread, after having gone to bed, like, 8 hours before this point now.

Guys, you're shitting up this thread with MY POLITICS IS BETTER THAN YOUR POLITICS. You've both done nothing but prove one point; you disagree with each other. And congratulations, anyone who wanted to discuss the original topic now no longer wants to/cares.

If you want to piss on about Democunts or Republitards, take it to Mt Moon (the last 3 pages of this haven't even been Misc-worthy).

kthxbai

Actually, I was about to say that this thread has absolutely nothing on the epic political/religious shitfights that broke out constantly circa 2004. Who ever would have thought I would actually find myself missing that era?

[Magmar]

(your millage may vary)


Oh please tell me you spend countless hours on tvtropes.org <3 <3


FORZA SICILIA!

Gnarly to find a fellow Siciliano. And I see what you did there ... McWhopper ... clever ...


Forza sicilia :D
everyone else best be jealous of our antipasto.

[Mew Master]

Oh please tell me you spend countless hours on tvtropes.org <3 <3

Yes I did, and no kissing on the first date.

[Jeff]

Forza sicilia :D
everyone else best be jealous of our antipasto.

Except for those of us who are also Sicilian. :D

[Blademaster]

By the way the poor and rich have both gotten richer

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


Your argument is some kind of logical fallacy that I'm too lazy to look up and identify.

Argumentum ad populum.


Except for those of us who are also Sicilian. :D

Bari represent.

[Roy Karrde]

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

http://www.economicmobility.org/assets/pdfs/EMP_Across_Generations.pdf

Median family income rose by 29% between the two generations, from $55,600 in inflation-adjusted dollars to $71,900. Average family incomes, grew even more rapidly, from $61,600 to $88,000 (a 43% increase). Income growth occurred throughout the income distribution for all five quintiles, as shown in the top chart above (click to enlarge), although family income in the top quintile grew by 52%, compared to 18% for the bottom fifth.

More than 2 out of every 3 Americans who were children in 1968 had higher levels of real family income in 1995–2002 than their parents had in 1967–1971 (see bottom chart above, click to enlarge). Children born to parents in the bottom fifth were MORE likely to surpass their parents’ income than children from any other background. More than four out of five children (82%) born to parents in the bottom quintile have greater family income than their parents. In contrast, less than half (43%) of those whose parents are in the top fifth of income surpass their parents.

There is significant upward income mobility, especially for the lowest income group. Children born to parents in the bottom quintile are more likely to surpass their parents’ income (82%) than are children from any other background.

http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2008/02/rich-getting-richer-and-poor-are.html

And then there is this:

Roughly half of taxpayers who began in the bottom income quintile in 1996 moved up to a higher income group by 2005.

Economic growth resulted in rising incomes for most taxpayers over the period from 1996 to 2005. Median incomes of all taxpayers increased by 24 percent after adjusting for inflation. The real incomes of two-thirds of all taxpayers increased over this period. In addition, the median incomes of those initially in the lower income groups increased more than the median incomes of those initially in the higher income groups.

http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/tax-policy/Documents/incomemobilitystudy03-08revise.pdf

[Gavin Luper]

Except for those of us who are also Sicilian. :D

:O YOU'RE SICILIAN TOO?

And Blade is from Bari?!

WTF.

How many wogs are there on TPM? And how, in the years preceding this thread, did we never identify through a common love of pasta and grappa and sleep?

Yes, I realise I am slightly derailing this thread.

[ChobiChibi]

People may be getting paid more than their parents, but living costs have also increased. Food, gas, petrol, electricity etc. You can't take one without the other.

[Roy Karrde]

People may be getting paid more than their parents, but living costs have also increased. Food, gas, petrol, electricity etc. You can't take one without the other.

You may have missed the whole part of "Inflation adjusted dollars" they had already factored in that.

[ChobiChibi]

An average. And I'm not your average American 8D

[kurai]

since the pdf does not work there is no way to determine the accuracy of their inflation adjustment process

the main point is probably that the CPI indicates a 4.4% annual rate of inflation over the study period (1968-present) whereas real wages have not risen by anywhere near this amount over the same period (http://macroblog.typepad.com/macroblog/2005/12/are_workers_los.html) (stats from bureau of labor statistics). so the real wage to price index ratio has been stagnant at best and declining for decades overall

however the main premise that roy has adopted here is ignoring a fairly important issue

the phrase being used in the cited statistics is "real family income" - could there be some obvious reason why this is not just real income? the difference between the current generation and the previous is the incidence of two-income families

considering family income in this manner makes the difference in real wages over time appear fairly intolerable, given that the cited graphs display an 18% rise in the bottom quintile for family income, not individual hourly wages... what can we conclude from this

[Roy Karrde]

however the main premise that roy has adopted here is ignoring a fairly important issue

the phrase being used in the cited statistics is "real family income" - could there be some obvious reason why this is not just real income? the difference between the current generation and the previous is the incidence of two-income families

considering family income in this manner makes the difference in real wages over time appear fairly intolerable, given that the cited graphs display an 18% rise in the bottom quintile for family income, not individual hourly wages... what can we conclude from this

There are various reasons, as also noted in the survey, people now are choosing to accept to have two kids, instead of three, and this goes across the entire spectrum. The fact is however the poor are getting richer, and they also have done so more recently, notice the second link: Roughly half of taxpayers who began in the bottom income quintile in 1996 moved up to a higher income group by 2005.

Economic growth resulted in rising incomes for most taxpayers over the period from 1996 to 2005. Median incomes of all taxpayers increased by 24 percent after adjusting for inflation. The real incomes of two-thirds of all taxpayers increased over this period. In addition, the median incomes of those initially in the lower income groups increased more than the median incomes of those initially in the higher income groups.

[kurai]

this has nothing to do with what i said? your second link addresses entirely family incomes, which when considering the increased rate of division by two is an appalling decline rather per hour-worked than the 18% overall improvement suggested

also "roughly half of taxpayers who began in the bottom income quintile in 1996 moved up to a higher income group by 2005" - they are at the bottom, where else would they go? this also means that 50% of the lower income group were new additions

also comparing 1996 to 2005 median taxpayer income is not the quintile-differentiated intergenerational family income mobility premise being put forth in the original argument

and you can just look at the graph i provided on real compensation difference over time for the longer period to see how this concept, when considered in real values, addresses what you were trying to argue before (a slight annual increase, but far below price index rises)

thus a net decline overall

edit we can alternately assume the given data is presented in an altogether inaccurate manner through some alternate interpretations (http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/02/income-inequality-in-america-chart-graph)

[woz]

no but get this they ROSE from 1996 game set and match lieberals

[Dark Sage]

Getting back to Michelle Bachmann, I heard an interesting story about her.

A prominent Washington periodical recently revealed that she has suffered from chronic migraine headaches for a long time, and that the problem caused at least one aide to quit. The article suggested, in so many words, that if she were President and the phone rang at three AM, she might just yank the cord out of the wall.

Bachman's response: She indeed had a problem with migraines, but she took prescription medication for them, and they were under control.

Now, the periodical in question was a well-known conservative publication, which may mean that her Republican rivals were just trying to discredit her, meaning that this was all dirty politics. But it raises a big question about her campaign goals.

She has vowed to "do everything in (her) power to repeal Obamacare", a program that would, among other things, make prescription migraine medication readily available to everyone.

So what's her view on the millions of Americans who, like her, suffer from chronic migraine headaches, but unlike her, can't afford the medicine to keep them "under control"?

[Blademaster]

:O YOU'RE SICILIAN TOO?

And Blade is from Bari?!

WTF.

How many wogs are there on TPM? And how, in the years preceding this thread, did we never identify through a common love of pasta and grappa and sleep?

Actually my great-grandparents are from Bari. Every generation since then has been American, though the culture really skipped over my mom's generation and got to me.


Yes, I realise I am slightly derailing this thread.

This thread's been derailed since Page 2. Though if the Powers That Be wish it, we can always just make a heritage-ish thread where we discuss our love of our native foods, alcohols (even though I don't drink), and predesignated resting periods.

[Gavin Luper]

This thread's been derailed since Page 2. Though if the Powers That Be wish it, we can always just make a heritage-ish thread where we discuss our love of our native foods, alcohols (even though I don't drink), and predesignated resting periods.

I, for one, support this.

[Dark Sage]

I'm willing to say the heck with it if everyone else is. I didn't want this to turn into a political debate. I just wanted honest opinions about one quote-unquote candidate due to a poll that I thought was skewed.

[Gavin Luper]

Nothing wrong with a political debate, DS - in fact I'm glad to see Misc still has some argument and life left in it. And Michelle Bachmann is definitely worthy of debating given the frightening level of "relevance" she seems to have accrued somehow.

Regarding the migraine dealio, I heard of this, too. How can this possibly look good to the American public? I mean, why would you vote someone in if they have admitted to something like that? I'm not saying people can't function if they have migraines, but if she gets migraines BEFORE getting elected ... what the hell happens when she's placed into arguably the most stressful job in the world?

(DS: Keep your thread going and just ignore us Italians - we're just grumbling in the background because we haven't been fed yet. We'll find our own thread soon enough! ^_^)

[Dark Sage]

Gavin, I am Italian!

Well, I may not have been born there, but I'm of Italian ancestry. There's nothing I like better than pasta on weekends. (I'd love a canole now and then too, but I have to lose weight.)

[Blademaster]

Gavin, I am Italian!


canole

Out.

Now.

[Dark Sage]

Sorry, Blade. Cannoli.

Like I said, I wasn't born there, and I didn't have a dictionary handy.

[Gavin Luper]

Ohhhhhh cannoli! Seriously I love them so much. I hate being on this goddamn health kick haha.

I can't believe everyone on TPM is Italian and it never came up before. This is madness.

(I also wasn't born in Italy, but, like you guys, have the ancestry and the culture that never says die.)

[Magmar]

So glad TPM is chock full of Italians! For my birthday, I had frittata ;)

[Roy Karrde]

I'm part German, that means I am united with you Italians under the "Pack of Steel agreement of 1939!"

[Mew Master]

I'm part German, that means I am united with you Italians under the "Pack of Steel agreement of 1939!"

Otherwise known as the "Axis Allies"[/badjoke]

[Jeff]

On most forums, casual conversations can turn into heated political debates. Leave it to TPM to do the opposite.

[mattbcl]

Agree with Jeff. Is someone passing around the proverbial bowl?

[Gavin Luper]

I'm part German, that means I am united with you Italians under the "Pack of Steel agreement of 1939!"

Eeep. Too soon, Roy. Too soon ...

:keke:

[Dark Sage]

Hey, Roy! You say that Mr. Obama is trailing the "generic GOP candidate" in polls?

Well, according to FOX (a known conservative outlet), here's how he's doing in some polls where he was compared to some real GOP candidates:

Obama 47, Romney 41
Obama 49, Bachmann 38
Obama 47, Pawlenty 37
Obama 47, Perry 37

Remember, this is from Fox, a network whose target audience is conservatives. You yourself said that polls don't lie.

Edit: You're part German? Heck, I like bratwurst now and then... And lest we forget, hamburgers were invented in Germany...

[Gavin Luper]

Can anyone tell me what a GOP is? I'm not American.

I gather the Republicans but what does it stand for?

[Mew Master]

Grand Old Party.

Or as I like to call em: Giant Offending Pile

[Dark Sage]

I've been calling them Giant Offal Pile nowadays. They stink as bad as the elephant that they chose as their symbol.

[Gavin Luper]

Thanks Denny. Loving the alternative meanings you guys are coming up with though haha.

[Roy Karrde]

Hey, Roy! You say that Mr. Obama is trailing the "generic GOP candidate" in polls?

Well, according to FOX (a known conservative outlet), here's how he's doing in some polls where he was compared to some real GOP candidates:

Obama 47, Romney 41
Obama 49, Bachmann 38
Obama 47, Pawlenty 37
Obama 47, Perry 37

Remember, this is from Fox, a network whose target audience is conservatives. You yourself said that polls don't lie.

Edit: You're part German? Heck, I like bratwurst now and then... And lest we forget, hamburgers were invented in Germany...

And yet a Democrat friendly poll puts Obama at a tie with Romney, and seeing how it is heavily weighted toward Democrats he would actually be losing to Romney.


A Democratic polling firm said President Obama's already weak job-approval numbers are "worse than they appear" and he likely would lose the election if it were held today.

For the first time in a year, Mr. Obama does not lead former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney in Public Policy Polling's monthly national poll on the 2012 presidential race. They are tied at 45 percent, and Mr. Obama is losing among independent voters by a margin of 49 percent to 44 percent.

Worse for Mr. Obama, PPP said, the "vast majority" of undecideds disapprove of the president's performance. The survey of registered voters was conducted July 15-17.

"There's a very good chance Barack Obama would lose if he had to stand for re-election today," said Dean Debnam, president of PPP. "This is his worst poll standing in a long time, and he really needs the economy to start turning around."

In an interview this week with a Kansas City, Mo., TV station, Mr. Obama said the election will be more about his record than the platform of the eventual Republican nominee.

"Americans understand that we didn't get into this problem overnight," Mr. Obama told KMBC-TV, one of three interviews he gave to regional TV outlets at the White House on Wednesday. "If next November they feel like I've ... been working as hard as I can and have been getting some things done to move us in the right direction, then I'll win. If they don't, then I'll lose."

http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/inside-politics/2011/jul/21/poll-weakened-obama-would-lose-vote-today/

[Mew Master]

Thanks Denny. Loving the alternative meanings you guys are coming up with though haha.

Should see the bumper-sticker:

[b]Going senile? Join the GOP! They're all crazy anyway!

Rich? White? Don't care about the poor? Join the GOP!

[Classtoise]

Is it possible that both sides are using this to rally their base?

I.e Dems saying "Look Romney is a threat!" and Pubs saying "Look, Obamas a threat!" to get their base roused?

Or, y'know, the usual "Polls don't lie unless I disagree with them then they're full of crap" :P

EDIT: That and I wouldn't exactly call the Washington Times "democrat".

[mr_pikachu]

Is it possible that both sides are using this to rally their base?

I'd agree with you if we were a little closer to the election, but we're over a year out. Any such effect will have long since evaporated by November 2012. Perhaps if the election was only six months away, not sixteen, that would be a viable plan.

It's possible that one of the Republican camps could be doing this to gain an advantage in the primaries, I suppose, but Obama's campaign staff has no reason to do the same.

[Gavin Luper]

Hehehehe good one Denny.

Um, looking at DS' numbers, even if they are slightly biased coming from Fox or, let's just say they're not ... how the hell does Bachmann have that much support? That scares the crap out of me.

[Mew Master]

Um, looking at DS' numbers, even if they are slightly biased coming from Fox or, let's just say they're not ... how the hell does Bachmann have that much support? That scares the crap out of me.

How the hell did Sarah Palin become one 62 Year old's heartbeat away from sitting in teh White House even though she has the IQ equivalent of a Garden Slug (Apologies to actual Garden slugs as I know you're actually more intelligent than Palin).

[Gavin Luper]

How the hell did Sarah Palin become one 62 Year old's heartbeat away from sitting in teh White House even though she has the IQ equivalent of a Garden Slug (Apologies to actual Garden slugs as I know you're actually more intelligent than Palin).

Fair call. This whole situation is frightening. I repeat my stance that the ideal outcome for your country/freedom in general would be for Palin and Bachmann to annihilate each other.

[Mew Master]

Fair call. This whole situation is frightening. I repeat my stance that the ideal outcome for your country/freedom in general would be for Palin and Bachmann to annihilate each other.

So hope that they're like matter and anti-matter, pasta and anti-pasta, Sonic and Knuckles, Abbit and Costello...

Wait I got off track.. o.o

I think I'll just move to Japan.

[Gavin Luper]

So hope that they're like matter and anti-matter, pasta and anti-pasta, Sonic and Knuckles, Abbit and Costello...

Wait I got off track.. o.o

I think I'll just move to Japan.

XD

And grow some extra arms?

Okay, maybe too soon, but ... point is, it's not the ideal place to move to at the moment, is it?

I worry for America. And the EU. Everyone seems to be falling to bits right now.

[Mew Master]

End of the world in a year and a half.

[classy_cat18]

Maybe if some of us and some of Japan switched places, it would help America. Stupid comment but I'm grasping at straws here.

[Gavin Luper]

XD Shonta.

Sigh ... I can't wait until 2013 hits and everyone goes "oh, I was kidding about that whole end of the world thing".

[Dark Sage]

I'm just being realistic. Roy thinks that the Republicans still are the favored party, even though we're now on the verge of a second recession because they keep saying "no". Boehmer stormed out of his meeting with Obama last night, refusing to bargain, and it seems that a default is almost a certainty now.

When the Market crashes and people don't get their SS checks, all these polls that Roy keeps quoting aren't going to mean jack. People are going to want to lynch the GOP members of the House, not elect them.

[Mew Master]

Well an extra arm would come in handy after all.

And a serious question: What happens/What does it mean if America defaults on our debt?

[Asilynne]

Not all Republicans are crazy just like not all Democrats are assholes, just the loudest ones :)

The extremists on both sides tend to be the loudest ones anyway...That's why I hate US politics and its politicians, none of them have the peoples best interest at heart, they just play us by turning us against the other and doing a whole lot of talking but really have their own agendas which will benefit them. So no one in this country (or thread) should get on their high horse and say "my party's better" because ultimately they are the same corrupted mess as the other one.

As for Michelle-whatever, I don't know much about her because I've been too busy taking care of my immediate concerns. But if Donald Trump runs, even though most of the time I lean right, you can fuck that bastard lol. I guess if that happens I'd rather not vote, and I usually scorn the people who say that. But basically if you don't like either one what can you do?

[Magmar]

I guess if that happens I'd rather not vote, and I usually scorn the people who say that. But basically if you don't like either one what can you do?

When in doubt, vote for the turd sandwich. (http://www.southparkstudios.com/full-episodes/s08e08-douche-and-turd)

[Roy Karrde]

I'm just being realistic. Roy thinks that the Republicans still are the favored party, even though we're now on the verge of a second recession because they keep saying "no". Boehmer stormed out of his meeting with Obama last night, refusing to bargain, and it seems that a default is almost a certainty now.

When the Market crashes and people don't get their SS checks, all these polls that Roy keeps quoting aren't going to mean jack. People are going to want to lynch the GOP members of the House, not elect them.

The GOP members of the house have passed two bills so far to deal with the deficit and the debt ceiling. The Ryan Plan, and Cut Cap and Balance. Cut Cap and Balance is favored by the vast, and I do mean vast majority of Americans according to CNN. That plan was stopped by Democrats in the Senate. The Senate which hasn't even suggested their own plan to the house. So... which party is saying "no" again?


How the hell did Sarah Palin become one 62 Year old's heartbeat away from sitting in teh White House even though she has the IQ equivalent of a Garden Slug (Apologies to actual Garden slugs as I know you're actually more intelligent than Palin).

You do realize how a person acts on the campaign trail, especially as a vice president =/= how they will act in office. Sarah Palin in Alaska had a career as a reformer, of going against the party, of being a moderate and working with Democrats to weed out corruption in Government. In many ways she had the same independent attributes John McCain has while in office.

[Dark Sage]

Are you out of your mind? They knew that the "Cut, Cap, and Balance" crapola had as much chance of becoming law as their repeal of the President's Health Care law. They wasted time doing it as a symbolic measure.

[Roy Karrde]

Are you out of your mind? They knew that the "Cut, Cap, and Balance" crapola had as much chance of becoming law as their repeal of the President's Health Care law. They wasted time doing it as a symbolic measure.

The only reason it doesn't have a chance is because of Democratic opposition. The public clearly wants it, as do Republicans.

[Classtoise]

Not all Republicans are crazy just like not all Democrats are assholes, just the loudest ones :)

The extremists on both sides tend to be the loudest ones anyway...That's why I hate US politics and its politicians, none of them have the peoples best interest at heart, they just play us by turning us against the other and doing a whole lot of talking but really have their own agendas which will benefit them. So no one in this country (or thread) should get on their high horse and say "my party's better" because ultimately they are the same corrupted mess as the other one.

As for Michelle-whatever, I don't know much about her because I've been too busy taking care of my immediate concerns. But if Donald Trump runs, even though most of the time I lean right, you can fuck that bastard lol. I guess if that happens I'd rather not vote, and I usually scorn the people who say that. But basically if you don't like either one what can you do?
Well, look at it this way.

Your choices might be Crazy Idiot (or just plain idiot if it's Palin) or Guy who hasn't done anything (including ending the world).

Even if you really don't like Obama, he's already proven he can go four years without ending our existence. I wouldn't give Bachmann that much trust ;)


(And Trumps out anyway, last I heard)

[Mew Master]

Honestly Roy, I've seen polls and surveys where the public Doesn't want it. We can both find polls to show that we're both right, but it often comes down to comparing sizes in the locker room. :/

[DarkestLight]

Palin/Bachman 2012. :/

::Waits for it::

[Roy Karrde]

Honestly Roy, I've seen polls and surveys where the public Doesn't want it. We can both find polls to show that we're both right, but it often comes down to comparing sizes in the locker room. :/

Really? Feel free to post the poll, here is the CNN one.

"The CCB/BBA approach wins majorities in every single demographic — including self-described liberals. Sixty-three percent of Democrats back the House bill. The least supportive age demographic is 50-64YOs at 62/37; the least supportive regional demographic is the Midwest at 61/39. Even those who express opposition to the Tea Party supports it 53/47.

In other words, it’s a clean sweep. Simply put, there is no political demographic at all where the CCB/BBA doesn’t get majority support. The BBA on its own does even better. It gets 3-1 support (74/24), and except for those Tea Party opponents (56%) and self-professed liberals (61/37), doesn’t get below 70% support in any demographic."

http://hotair.com/archives/2011/07/21/oh-my-ccb-bill-gets-2-1-approval-among-adults-in-cnn-poll/

[Dark Sage]

Roy, I've spoken to everyone I connect with on Facebook, everyone my dad connects to on Facebook, everyone on every news group I belong to... And I think you're delusional.

The wealthiest 5% of Americans want the Cut, Cap, and Balance plan. That's about it. Might I add, this is the group that owns CNN, a network whose yellow journalism convicted Casey Anthony of murder before she even had her day in court. That 5%, by the way, are the only true Republicans. Everyone else who calls themselves a Republican is just someone who is being lied to by the true GOP.

Edit: I tried to post a reply to the article that your link led to. The poll. I stated my honest opinion of the GOP's plan. My reply was never posted.

[Roy Karrde]

Roy, I've spoken to everyone I connect with on Facebook, everyone my dad connects to on Facebook, everyone on every news group I belong to... And I think you're delusional.

The wealthiest 5% of Americans want the Cut, Cap, and Balance plan. That's about it. Might I add, this is the group that owns CNN, a network whose yellow journalism convicted Casey Anthony of murder before she even had her day in court. That 5%, by the way, are the only true Republicans. Everyone else who calls themselves a Republican is just someone who is being lied to by the true GOP.

So let me get this straight you have no proof that CNN, one of the largest news organizations in the United States has faked the poll, but because you have talked to a microscopic group of people, you believe that it is true. That is so unbelievable even I wouldn't use it as a excuse and I have made some pretty pathetic excuses in the past when it comes to debating as Heald and Blademaster can attest to.

Anyway on the subject, it appears that President Obama has killed not one but TWO Bipartisan deals. The first one was Friday night in which the Republicans and Democrats agreed to 800 billion in revenue increases, realizing that such a deal may end this crisis, Obama then pushed for 400 billion more, knowing the Republicans couldn't make that.

The second one came last night, when The Speaker, Senator Reid and Senator McConnell all agreed on a two part framework. The problem for Obama? This puts the debt issue up again during the election season. And being the feckless piece of trash he is, he would rather have a easier time campaigning than fixing this crisis. So he called Harry Reid in, and just a few hours later Reid pulled out of the framework.

Nice to know we have a President that cares more about his own re election than saving this country from default.

[Dark Sage]

Obama did not kill the bills. They were voted down by the Senate, in the democratic system that this country was founded on.

At least they got to vote on it. Now, if it was a Democrat-supported bill, the GOP would have fillibustered it to prevent it from coming to the floor at all.

I didn't say the CNN poll was faked. I'm saying it was skewed.

And furthermore, the President has agreed to meet the GOP halfway. Why hasn't the GOP? Tell me that.

[Roy Karrde]

Obama did not kill the bills. They were voted down by the Senate, in the democratic system that this country was founded on.

At least they got to vote on it. Now, if it was a Democrat-supported bill, the GOP would have fillibustered it to prevent it from coming to the floor at all.

You may have missed what I was saying. Last Friday and Yesterday, the Democrats and Republicans both in the Senate and House agreed to bills, but Obama killed both bills by either pressuring for even higher tax increases than what the Democrats and Republicans had agreed to, or by calling up Harry Reid Sunday night and pressuring him to back out. This is not Cut Cap and Balance, these are two bills that the sides were working on this weekend, and both killed by the Obama Administration.


I didn't say the CNN poll was faked. I'm saying it was skewed.

And your proof is....?


And furthermore, the President has agreed to meet the GOP halfway. Why hasn't the GOP? Tell me that.

They did, Friday night in agreeing to 800 billion in revenue increases. And then Obama said "Well if you guys are going to do 800 billion, then I want 1.2 trillion instead." Thing you need to learn about the President is that: The President lies.

[Heald]

So our business secretary says that the impending default in the US is entirely down to a few 'right-wing nutters'

LINK (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/8658197/Vince-Cable-launches-attack-on-right-wing-nutters-over-US-debt-deal.html)

Is he right? I don't really care what's going on in the USA, all I know is Vince Cable is a fucking idiot and if he's wrong it would help further justify my disposition to him.

[Roy Karrde]

So our business secretary says that the impending default in the US is entirely down to a few 'right-wing nutters'

LINK (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/8658197/Vince-Cable-launches-attack-on-right-wing-nutters-over-US-debt-deal.html)

Is he right? I don't really care what's going on in the USA, all I know is Vince Cable is a fucking idiot and if he's wrong it would help further justify my disposition to him.

I wouldn't say right wing nutters, I would say it was the right wing up until last weekend, and then this happened...


But the GOP bill to cut spending and raise the debt ceiling, which would avert the coming default crisis, would also require at least one more debt increase before the 2012 election, and the president, working hard for re-election, does not want to deal with the issue again before November 2012. After consulting with Obama Sunday evening, Reid's willingness to work with the GOP disappeared. (The White House has all along blamed Republicans for blowing up the talks.)

"I think Reid wants to get this done," says the senior Republican. "The problem is, the White House is so far out on a limb on vetoing anything that doesn't get Obama through the 2012 election that it's now kind of personal." For Reid to keep working with the GOP would be a slap at the president and leader of the Democratic party -- a virtually impossible scenario for the Majority Leader.

http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/2011/07/reid-played-key-role-debt-bill-obama-nixed-plan

And MSNBC's Lawrence O'Donnald.


The Boehner news conference was fascinating. He didn’t want to - it seemed at the beginning he didn’t want to specify a number. He said we agreed to a number on revenues, which I found shocking enough, and then later he said it was $800 billion in revenue increases that he and Eric Cantor agreed to. They then claimed the President, having reached that agreement with them, then asked for a bigger revenue increase, which they absolutely couldn’t do. That would look like, if that’s the way it played out, that would look like, in the end, the President making sure they didn’t get a deal.

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/brad-wilmouth/2011/07/24/msnbcs-odonnell-theorizes-obama-manipulated-block-budget-deal-while-p#ixzz1T8BqpmNw

You have no idea how frustrating it is, that we have a deal in our grasp, a bi partisan deal that includes tax increases and spending cuts.... and Obama has killed it

[ChobiChibi]

So our business secretary says that the impending default in the US is entirely down to a few 'right-wing nutters'

LINK (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/8658197/Vince-Cable-launches-attack-on-right-wing-nutters-over-US-debt-deal.html)

Oh Heald, I saw this on the BBC a couple of nights ago, cracked me up and reminded me of this topic lol.

Anyways, about the CNN stuff. I don't see how you can trust media polls 100%, after what happened over here with The News of the World. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14124020) They just print what people want to see and such...

Not sure where I'm going with this. Will go crawl back into my hole now.

[Roy Karrde]

\
Anyways, about the CNN stuff. I don't see how you can trust media polls 100%, after what happened over here with The News of the World. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14124020) They just print what people want to see and such...

If they print stuff the public wants to see, why have they refused to acknowledge the results then?

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/matt-hadro/2011/07/21/cnn-ignores-poll-results-showing-strong-support-cut-cap-and-balance

And why did a Republican Representative have to inform the host about their own poll?

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/matt-hadro/2011/07/22/gop-guest-informs-cnn-its-own-poll-results

[woz]

"exposing and combating liberal media bias" lol

are any of your sources not right-wing pseudo-conspiracy blogs or thinktanks

[Roy Karrde]

"exposing and combating liberal media bias" lol

are any of your sources not right-wing pseudo-conspiracy blogs or thinktanks

All my sources for MSNBC and CNN are only quotes from programs and clips. Newsbusters is the easiest way to provide the quotes and clips.

[woz]

quotes they cherry-pick to support their agenda while others that don't are ignored. thank god they're here to expose this bias

[Roy Karrde]

quotes they cherry-pick to support their agenda while others that don't are ignored. thank god they're here to expose this bias

Feel free to point out which of the articles is incorrect and has ignored things in those programs that would counter them. Really I am curious to find out where they have been cherry picked for ideological reasons. But you better have proof to back up the ones you point out.

[Heald]

I must admit the first comment on one of those articles made me laugh.

"No Matter how CNN and the other MSM present their one sided Leftist views, no one is watching.

What really matters is that FOX presents a balanced view."

[Dark Sage]

Roy, I gotta ask...

Do any of these sources of yours also include a poll that says that the majority of those polled what the President impeached?

I'm really starting to think that you're only focusing on the sources that reflect your personal opinions.

Incidentally, Senate Majority Leader Reid just proposed a plan that should have made everyone happy. But the Tea Party is threatening to kill it even before it's voted on. Ironically, Boehmer proposed a plan that everyone could agree on, but it was struck down by, you guessed it, the Tea Party.

I'd like to go on the record by saying I have never once voted for any of these Tea Party numbskulls. I knew that Carl Paladino would never win the governor's race in New York, but I voted in that election simply so I could vote against him.

[woz]

Really I am curious to find out where they have been cherry picked for ideological reasons.

yes it's almost like a right-wing funded media-conspiracy blog wouldn't cherry pick quotes to support their agenda and not report on anything that doesn't.

[Roy Karrde]

Roy, I gotta ask...

Do any of these sources of yours also include a poll that says that the majority of those polled what the President impeached?

I'm really starting to think that you're only focusing on the sources that reflect your personal opinions.

I don't see how such a poll would have anything to do with the information I have posted. The only thing that it would be relevent is the CNN poll and I have not seen it on the CNN poll. And obviously I am going to post sources to back up my point. It would be quite stupid of me to post sources that disagree with the point I am trying to make.


Incidentally, Senate Majority Leader Reid just proposed a plan that should have made everyone happy. But the Tea Party is threatening to kill it even before it's voted on. Ironically, Boehmer proposed a plan that everyone could agree on, but it was struck down by, you guessed it, the Tea Party.

The Reid plan is the hastily put together plan that happened after the White House forced Reid out of the bi partisan plan that is currently the Boehmer plan. The problem with the Reid plan is that half of his cuts come from the false assumption that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are already over. That alone dwindles his cuts significantly.


yes it's almost like a right-wing funded media-conspiracy blog wouldn't cherry pick quotes to support their agenda and not report on anything that doesn't.

So you don't have any specific proof on these clips. kthxbye.

[woz]

laffo. the "clip" posted is 38 seconds long. where's the full interview? it's almost like they've cherry picked those 38 seconds because it supports their MEDIA ARE ALL LEFTIES agenda. try harder.

[Roy Karrde]

laffo. the "clip" posted is 38 seconds long. where's the full interview? it's almost like they've cherry picked those 38 seconds because it supports their MEDIA ARE ALL LEFTIES agenda. try harder.

Which is why I asked for you to provide proof that it is cherry picked, and not condensed for time. As I said it is easier to grab stuff off newsbusters than searching for a clip and going through 20 minutes of it to find the point I am looking for. If you have proof that it is actually cherry picked, ala you have the full interview and can show where in the interview disagrees with what they are saying. Feel free to post it. In other words: Put up or shut up.

[woz]

the fact you're floundering around claiming that 38 seconds of a ~20m interview isn't cherry-picked but "condensed for time" (lol) tells everyone all they need to know about your stance on this subject.

[ChobiChibi]

Well obviously it's cherry picked, an interview doesn't last 38 seconds, does it? It's like someone being quoted out of context. For example:


Roy Karrde (00:53:52): "Oh my God... I'm Gay"

I cherry picked that to make you look like you're saying that you're gay. Funny how that works, innit?

[Roy Karrde]

Well obviously it's cherry picked, an interview doesn't last 38 seconds, does it? It's like someone being quoted out of context. For example:



I cherry picked that to make you look like you're saying that you're gay. Funny how that works, innit?

You assume that there is actually something in that interview that actually contradicted their point, I am not saying there isn't, I am saying to prove it. Assuming something is there, and something actually being there, are two vastly different things.


the fact you're floundering around claiming that 38 seconds of a ~20m interview isn't cherry-picked but "condensed for time" (lol) tells everyone all they need to know about your stance on this subject.

So you have no actual proof, no clips to prove your point, nothing. Just like before arguing with you gets to a point where it is just pathetically sad. So until you actually provide actual physical proof for your argument there is no need to continue it.

[ChobiChibi]

Hey, here's the thing, YOU prove it. YOU find the other 20 minutes worth of interview if you're so sure that that quote isn't cherry picked.

[Roy Karrde]

Hey, here's the thing, YOU prove it. YOU find the other 20 minutes worth of interview if you're so sure that that quote isn't cherry picked.

I am not the one making the accusation, the burden of proof is on those making it, not me.

[woz]

you've literally quoted newsbusters.org with a 38s clip (with 10s of adverts) that they've used to beat the drum about their agenda. now you've claimed that they haven't cherry-picked a quote to support their agenda, provided a laughable explanation that it's just "condensed for time" and provided no link to the full interview you're referring to which should be your responsibility since it was you originally who posted a clip from it. that's sad.

you've also provided no "proof" of your own, you just paste crackpot articles from right-wing media-conspiracy blogs that are hardly fair or balanced either.

and you've also claimed it's not cherry-picked either. it's you who pasted the article, it's you who claims the clip isn't cherry-picked, you haven't even watched the full interview yourself which is, again, laughable. you prove it.

[Roy Karrde]

you've literally quoted newsbusters.org with a 38s clip (with 10s of adverts) that they've used to beat the drum about their agenda. now you've claimed that they haven't cherry-picked a quote to support their agenda, provided a laughable explanation that it's just "condensed for time" and provided no link to the full interview you're referring to which should be your responsibility since it was you originally who posted a clip from it. that's sad.

you've also provided no "proof" of your own, you just paste crackpot articles from right-wing media-conspiracy blogs that are hardly fair or balanced either.

and you've also claimed it's not cherry-picked either. it's you who pasted the article, it's you who claims the clip isn't cherry-picked, you haven't even watched the full interview yourself which is, again, laughable. you prove it.

You are the one who made the accusation it is Cherry Picked so again the onus is on you to prove it. And really from the looks of the article it is compressed for time, Representative Tom Graves confronts the CNN host with the facts of their poll, the CNN host dodges and continues on. Do you expect them to post the entire interview word for word when their focus is on specific parts? So far you make a claim, and have yet to back it up.

Then again it still has nothing to do with my original point in that CNN has refused to report on the poll, which the clip clearly shows as the host dodges it. Thus the whole debate as to if the clip is cherry picked or not is futile since the clip itself shows the host dodging it not once or twice.

Then again bringing up that CNN did the poll for any specific reason other than just doing a poll is idiocy as well and does not change the results.

[woz]

a 30s clip of a quote from an interview that is probably vastly longer than that is cherry-picked. sorry you aren't sensible enough to acknowledge that, having not watched the full interview yourself. you're failing to back up your claims and taking the rantings of a right-wing media-conspiracy blog as gospel.

cnn clearly did report on the poll btw. they reported that the majority of answers to the questions did not support the republican stance. tom graves does what any politician would and latch onto one aspect of the poll. he goes on ignoring the other polled questions and answers because it's not favourable. what did you expect cnn to say? "congrats mr graves the poll suggests the republicans aren't gaining favour on the majority of the questions asked, but this one question vindicates you all along!" don't be daft.

[Roy Karrde]

a 30s clip of a quote from an interview that is probably vastly longer than that is cherry-picked. sorry you aren't sensible enough to acknowledge that, having not watched the full interview yourself. you're failing to back up your claims and taking the rantings of a right-wing media-conspiracy blog as gospel.

cnn clearly did report on the poll btw. they reported that the majority of answers to the questions did not support the republican stance. tom graves does what any politician would and latch onto one aspect of the poll. he goes on ignoring the other polled questions and answers because it's not favourable. what did you expect cnn to say? "congrats mr graves the poll suggests the republicans aren't gaining favour on the majority of the questions asked, but this one question vindicates you all along!" don't be daft.

Yet my point wasn't that CNN was willing to acknowledge all the poll questions, my point was that they have ignored that specific one. As the argument was that CNN fixed, changed, messed with that question to get the desired results.

[Dark Sage]

Roy, just answer me this...

Doesn't the plan that the Tea Party want require a new Constitutional Amendment?

That's really realistic. As if that happened all the time.

[Roy Karrde]

Roy, just answer me this...

Doesn't the plan that the Tea Party want require a new Constitutional Amendment?

That's really realistic. As if that happened all the time.

There isn't a "Tea Party" plan since CCB was voted down. There is the Bi Partisan plan by the speaker. But on CCB it did have a constitutional amendment for a balanced budget. Not that hard considering in the past 20 Senate Democrats have signaled publicly they want it, which gives the two thirds majority in the Senate. At which point it goes to the states, which seeing how many Republican Governors we have after the 2010 elections, and how popular the amendment is as the CNN poll points out, it is not that hard to get that as well.

[woz]

or put into context by saying that they also seem to support a plan that includes other things like tax increases on the rich as well?

[Roy Karrde]

or put into context by saying that they also seem to support a plan that includes other things like tax increases on the rich as well?

Neither of the plans put forward right now have tax increases, neither the bipartisan plan, or the hastily put together one in the Senate. Any chance for tax increases was killed by Obama last Friday when after Republicans and Democrats agreed to 800 billion in "additional revenue" Obama pushed for 400 billion more knowing the Republicans wouldn't go for that.

[woz]

was talking about the cnn poll results, not the actual plans put forward so far.

[Roy Karrde]

was talking about the cnn poll results, not the actual plans put forward so far.

With that there is not even a acknowledgment that the poll shows different results or that the Representative is right. He dodges and weaves away from it, even saying "Well, our polling tonight shows something a little bit different" even though they were both talking about the same poll. The fact is the host clearly did not want to acknowledge that the poll does show support for CCB. And seeing how the accusation was made that CNN fixed/changed/edited the poll on purpose, the host's inability to even acknowledge that pretty much kills that argument.

[woz]

he actually says the polling tonight shows something a little bit different in that 2/3rds of americans also want a plan that includes revenue increases as well

[Roy Karrde]

he actually says the polling tonight shows something a little bit different in that 2/3rds of americans also want a plan that includes revenue increases as well

Yes, but he won't acknowledge the other half, that the same poll also shows that CCB is supported by the vast majority of Americans, which is why he answered his question about compromise in such a fashion. Again as I said before seeing how the accusation was made that CNN fixed/changed/edited the poll on purpose, the host's inability to even acknowledge that pretty much kills that argument

[woz]

the "as well" part acknowledges that he concedes it shows that it has support but they also want to see other things included, not just the current ccb, which tom graves also doesn't acknowledge either.

[Roy Karrde]

the "as well" part acknowledges that he concedes it shows that it has support but they also want to see other things included, not just the current ccb, which tom graves also doesn't acknowledge either.

Umm first there is no "as well" line by King the line is "Well, our polling tonight shows something a little bit different; shows that most people want a plan that includes some revenue increases, two-thirds of Americans want that". The 'as well" comes from Tom Graves saying: "why there's been hundreds of thousands of Americans who have signed the pledge for that and why 66 percent of Americans according to your very own poll support that plan as well."

[Dark Sage]

Roy, come on. The last time there was even a proposed new Constitutional Amendment was when the ERA failed.

Bush Sr. wanted an Amendment to make desecration of the American flag a crime, but it never got past the drawing board.

You can't simply add Amendments onto the Constitution like it happens all the time. Such things have to be thought out slowly and carefully after months - if not years - of intense, and most importantly, bipartisan discussion.

[Roy Karrde]

Roy, come on. The last time there was even a proposed new Constitutional Amendment was when the ERA failed.

Bush Sr. wanted an Amendment to make desecration of the American flag a crime, but it never got past the drawing board.

You can't simply add Amendments onto the Constitution like it happens all the time. Such things have to be thought out slowly and carefully after months - if not years - of intense, and most importantly, bipartisan discussion.

You realize that talk of a balanced budget amendment goes back to the founding days of our constitution correct? You also realize that it has been brought up many times before. Right now the numbers are there, if the 20 Senate Democrats were not lying through their teeth. Then the number is there for both houses of Congress and in the public sphere.

[woz]

then the poll actually does show something a little bit different in that 2/3rds of americans want a plan that has revenue increases and not just the ccb plan that tom graves was pointing out. it's a bit misleading to say 2/3rds of americans support the ccb plan when the poll shows that 2/3rds support a ccb plan, but 2/3rds also apparently support revenue increases as pointed out by cnn. you can't have it both ways, it's not bias to respond to tom graves suggesting ccb is supported by 2/3rds of americans when that isn't the entire story from the poll, as 2/3rds also support revenue increases.

[Roy Karrde]

then the poll actually does show something a little bit different in that 2/3rds of americans want a plan that has revenue increases and not just the ccb plan that tom graves was pointing out. it's a bit misleading to say 2/3rds of americans support the ccb plan when the poll shows that 2/3rds support a ccb plan, but 2/3rds also apparently support revenue increases as pointed out by cnn. you can't have it both ways, it's not bias to respond to tom graves suggesting ccb is supported by 2/3rds of americans when that isn't the entire story from the poll, as 2/3rds also support revenue increases.

Except the question to Tom Graves was why they were not negotiating on the CCB. His answer was because the American people are behind it. If this wasn't the CCB and they were talking about a regular debt bill that only had spending cuts, the question would have merit. Seeing how they were talking about the CCB, and Tom Graves was addressing the poll specifically talking about the CCB, it does not.

[woz]

no, the question is about compromise, and he doesn't answer it, he uses the cnn poll to back up the ccb plan suggesting 2/3rds of americans support it and there's no time to compromise, but the poll also shows that 2/3rds support different options like revenue increases. if the poll shows the same level of support for another option then the question about why aren't they willing to compromise when there is the same level of support for a different option is valid.

[Roy Karrde]

no, the question is about compromise, and he doesn't answer it, he uses the cnn poll to back up the ccb plan suggesting 2/3rds of americans support it and there's no time to compromise, but the poll also shows that 2/3rds support different options like revenue increases. if the poll shows the same level of support for another option then the question about why aren't they willing to compromise when there is the same level of support for a different option is valid.

And again if this was something different then there would be a reason for compromise, but again when you have the vast majority of the public supporting what you already have, there is no need to change it. The poll was for CCB as it currently was, and the question for CCB as it currently was shows a clear majority of support. But you know what? You know what the key point is? It's that the CNN anchor did not even acknowledge he was right, and that their poll showed that CCB was supported by the vast majority of people. And at the end of the day, that is the point.

[woz]

and again, you also have vast majority of the public support for a different option, so maybe there is a need to compromise? the key point is the poll also showed that there was a different plan, also supported by the vast majority of people. so to just focus on ccb and getting angry that the anchor pointed out the same level of support for a different plan is just daft.

[Roy Karrde]

and again, you also have vast majority of the public support for a different option, so maybe there is a need to compromise? the key point is the poll also showed that there was a different plan, also supported by the vast majority of people. so to just focus on ccb and getting angry that the anchor pointed out the same level of support for a different plan is just daft.

At which point the Democrats should have put together a bill based around that plan. The specific CCB plan was polled and showed a vast majority of support. It was also the only plan that was specifically polled. If the Democrats want to outline their own plan and put one together that the public also supports they can. But it is "daft" to change a plan that already has the vast majority of support from every sector of the public.

[woz]

it obviously doesn't have the vast majority of support from every sector of the public if the poll is showing that they support a different plan at the same level. pushing through a plan that hasn't got the level of support you claim is daft, especially when it will never pass.

[Roy Karrde]

it obviously doesn't have the vast majority of support from every sector of the public if the poll is showing that they support a different plan at the same level. pushing through a plan that hasn't got the level of support you claim is daft, especially when it will never pass.

The poll break down shows this for the CCB: The CCB/BBA approach wins majorities in every single demographic — including self-described liberals. Sixty-three percent of Democrats back the House bill. The least supportive age demographic is 50-64YOs at 62/37; the least supportive regional demographic is the Midwest at 61/39. Even those who express opposition to the Tea Party supports it 53/47.

The BBA on its own does even better. It gets 3-1 support (74/24), and except for those Tea Party opponents (56%) and self-professed liberals (61/37), doesn’t get below 70% support in any demographic.

In other words yes the vast majority of the public supports the CCB, even those that oppose the Tea Party still majority support the bill.

[woz]

the source of this including the polling data and questions asked?

[Roy Karrde]

the source of this including the polling data and questions asked?

For the pure overall question here you go.

In those discussions, several budget plans have been proposed that would reduce the amount the government owes by trillions of dollars over the next ten years. If you had to choose, would you rather see Congress and President Obama agree to a budget plan that only includes cuts in government spending, or a budget plan that includes a combination of spending cuts and tax increases on higher-income Americans and some businesses?

Only spending cuts 34%
Spending cuts and tax increases 64%

In another proposal, Congress would raise the debt ceiling only if a balanced budget amendment were passed by both houses of Congress and substantial spending cuts and caps on future spending were approved. Would you favor or oppose this proposal?

Favor 66%
Oppose 33%

Would you favor or oppose a constitutional amendment to require a balanced federal budget?

Favor 74%
Oppose 24%

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2011/images/07/21/rel11b.pdf

[Dark Sage]

Roy, CCB was never meant to pass. No-one in the House was stupid enough to believe that it would reach the President's desk. The Tea Party pushed it through to prove that they could. It was a symbolic show of their stubborness, just like their attempt to repeal the President's Health Care plan.

Your whole insistance that the Senate should have passed it is going beyond ridiculous.

And if you keep insisting on having the last word every single day, I'm going to close this post. These arguements are getting out of hand.

[woz]

question 21 has the exact same support.

[Roy Karrde]

Roy, CCB was never meant to pass. No-one in the House was stupid enough to believe that it would reach the President's desk. The Tea Party pushed it through to prove that they could. It was a symbolic show of their stubborness, just like their attempt to repeal the President's Health Care plan.

Your whole insistance that the Senate should have passed it is going beyond ridiculous.

Twenty Senate Democrats have gone on record in support of a Balanced Budget Amendment as shown here.

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=45061

That would raise the number to 66 with all the Republicans and the 20 Senate Democrats voting together. That would be the 2/3rd Majority number needed to pass the Senate. That is if the Senate were to have a up and down vote, and the Democrats were not lying.


question 21 has the exact same support.

Yes it does, but like I said since the CCB already has that number, and exceeds that number as a stand alone amendment, there is no reason to change when you already have such a heightened level of support.

[Dark Sage]

You said that already, Roy.

I've had enough. I wanted a post about Michelle Bachmann, and you turned it into a debate.

I'm tired of this. This topic is closed.