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kon
16th December 2011, 03:35 AM
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dX41SkKN0tQ]
"What if the whole purpose of the Constitution was to limit the government? What if Congress' enumerated powers in the Constitution no longer limited Congress, but were actually used as justification to extend Congress' authority over every realm of human life? What if the president, meant to be an equal to Congress, has become a democratically elected, term-limited monarch? What if the president assumed everything he did was legal, just because he's the president? What if he could interrupt your regularly scheduled radio and TV programming for a special message from him? What if he could declare war on his own? What if he could read your emails and texts without a search warrant? What if he could kill you without warning?

What if the rights and principles guaranteed in the Constitution have been so distorted in the past 200 years as to be unrecognizable by the founders? What if the states were mere provinces of a totally nationalized and fully centralized government? What if the Constitution was amended stealthily, not by constitutional amendments duly passed by the states, but by the constant and persistent expansion of the federal government's role in our lives? What if the federal government decided whether its own powers were proper and constitutional?

What if you needed a license from the government to speak, to assemble or to protest the government? What if the right to keep and bear arms only applied to the government? What if posse comitatus – the law that prohibits our military from our streets – were no longer in effect? What if the government considered the military an adequate dispenser of domestic law enforcement? What if cops looked and acted like troops and you couldn't distinguish the military from the police? What if federal agents could write their own search warrants in defiance of the Constitution? What if the government could decide when you weren't entitled to a jury trial?

What if the government could take your property whenever it wanted it? What if the government could continue prosecuting you until it got the verdict it wanted? What if the government could force you to testify against yourself simply by labeling you a domestic terrorist? What if the government could torture you until you said what the government wanted to hear? What if people running for president actually supported torture? What if the government tortured your children to get to you? What if the government could send you to your death and your innocence meant nothing so long as the government's procedures were followed? What if America's prison population, the largest in the world, was the result of a cruel and unusual way for a country to be free? What if half the prison population never harmed anyone but themselves?

What if the people had no rights except those the government chose to let them have? What if the states had no rights except to do as the federal government commanded? What if our elected officials didn't really live among us, but all instead had their hearts and their homes in Washington, D.C.? What if the government could strip you of your rights because of where your mother was when you were born? What if the income tax was unconstitutional? What if the states were convinced to give up their representation in Congress? What if the government tried to ban you from using a substance older than the government itself? What if voting didn't mean anything anymore because both political parties stand for Big Government?

What if the government could write any law, regulate any behavior and tax any event, the Constitution be damned? What if the government was the reason we don't have a Constitution anymore? What if you could love your country but hate what the government has done to it? What if sometimes to love your country, you had to alter or abolish the government? What if Jefferson was right? What if that government is best which governs least? What if I'm right? What if the government is wrong? What if it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong? What if it is better to perish fighting for freedom than to live as a slave? What if freedom's greatest hour of danger is now?" -Judge Andrew Napolitano

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dX41SkKN0tQ]
[the follow quote came from the video which uses a fantastic method to get people to use critical thinking and realize that their Constitution no longer is the Law of the Land]

discuss or let the thread rot
He is clearly calling for revolution; a return to constitutional government. Would you fight the good fight or would you remain on the sidelines?

Personally-- I would die for Liberty rather than to live in servitude, meet every unjust "Law" with resistance, but sadly I am an arm chair patriot still and that is all.

About eleven years ago I would have committed suicide but something stopped me, and has continued to stop me many times after. Originally it was because I did not fit in with everyone; I was made fun of. I have learned over the course of my life that that is the fate we all endure. For some reason, I can not finish myself off to live a peaceful afterlife only because I feel humans are oppressed in this world, if there is any other.

Tyranny drives me to live, what a load of bullshit, I think. What think you random people of TPM website?

Lady Vulpix
16th December 2011, 08:07 AM
That looks like political propaganda to me, or is at the very least confusing. While you're welcome to share your views, trying to impose them upon others is not a good thing to do. Nor is TPM the place to advertise your political party/IRC chat/whatever else you're trying to promote.

You're free to start a discussion as long as you're willing to accept other people's opinions. Just saying (in as many words as it takes you) {1} is bad, vote for {2} won't get you anywhere good, especially if it's the only thing we've seen you do around here.

And, if it helps you to know this, many of us aren't even in your country.

I honestly don't know how representative the USA government actually is, nor how much the constitution is actually followed. I'd be willing to guess "not much" in both cases if it's anything like here, but I can discuss the abstract concepts if that was the point of the discussion.

I do love my country but hate its government. However, I wouldn't cause nor join an uprising because violence is not the solution and because I've seen how those things end. I'd much rather work on peaceful alternatives. They take longer but they're a lot more effective in the long run, and without the nasty side-effect of people getting killed.

RedStarWarrior
16th December 2011, 06:51 PM
You'd be wrong, Gabi. They take the Constitution way too seriously here and question every damn thing with twenty million interpretations.

Link
16th December 2011, 07:04 PM
You'd be wrong, Gabi. They take the Constitution way too seriously here and question every bless thing with twenty million interpretations.

You're exaggerating again. I think you wouldn't last two seconds of the part of NJ where I rep the most. The constitution isn't imposed anywhere in Paterson, NJ.

Ghost
16th December 2011, 07:08 PM
You're exaggerating again. I think you wouldn't last two seconds of the part of NJ where I rep the most. The constitution isn't imposed anywhere in Paterson, NJ.

The Constitution isn't followed anywhere in Camden, NJ, where i'm from :D

Link
17th December 2011, 07:09 AM
Paterson, NJ is one huge poverty-stricken place. You ever been between 16 and 17th ave in Eastside?

Blademaster
18th December 2011, 06:00 PM
Paterson's like the NJ equivalent of Harlem. The cheapest solution to all the shit going on there is a damned firebombing.

Ghost
18th December 2011, 06:15 PM
Well down here in Camden we have the national guard helping the cops patrol the streets, helicopters with search lights that go by every night at around eleven, and I've heard rumors of tanks being moved in for some reason? (Not sure how that's going to help...)

All stemming from a couple of black guys robbing a grocery store and killing people 10 people with AK-47s.

The University District where I'm at isn't too bad though. Two blocks down the street however, at least five people have got robbed at gunpoint at the same liquor store. Why would you keep going there at night? -_-

Link
18th December 2011, 07:25 PM
I'm quite known in Paterson. I don't deal drugs, and I don't sell drugs and have restrained myself from doing so for my entire life.

Blademaster
18th December 2011, 09:47 PM
I'm quite known in Paterson.

Like I said, firebombing.

RedStarWarrior
18th December 2011, 11:00 PM
Let's not spam, please.

kon
19th December 2011, 12:34 AM
(Lady Vulpix)
That looks like political propaganda to me, or is at the very least confusing. While you're welcome to share your views, trying to impose them upon others is not a good thing to do. Nor is TPM the place to advertise your political party/IRC chat/whatever else you're trying to promote.

You're free to start a discussion as long as you're willing to accept other people's opinions. Just saying (in as many words as it takes you) {1} is bad, vote for {2} won't get you anywhere good, especially if it's the only thing we've seen you do around here.

And, if it helps you to know this, many of us aren't even in your country.


I apologize if my text has been seen as promoting any of the things you have just said, such as, but not limited to: imposing beliefs, spreading political propaganda, advertising any sort of Corporation and/or group of individuals or specific uses of the IRC protocol.

I have posted this thread to get some opinions from a range of different individuals from different parts of the world, if they wish to participate. This could mean that I can learn about other governments and what safeguards are put in place to keep a government in check.

I do not expect everyone here to understand law and politics to the degree that they know another country's government, and I do not know much about others. My actions were not caused by any want of badgering or demeaning as a result of my thread, but were caused by that aforementioned goal.

The best thing about forums is I can learn a lot from others telling me why I am wrong. I enjoy healthy conversation. The point of this discussion would be to just discuss governments: how they grow, why they are/are not needed, what does man do when government is not protecting their Life, Liberty, and Property, etc. I tried to keep it general due to not knowing the demographics of all the users here since my last time being here.

I must also mention I did not tell anyone to vote for anyone or anything, I just provided a neat [to me at least] critical thinking exercise coupled with a vague idea of what line of thinking I come from.


(Lady Vulpix)
I honestly don't know how representative the USA government actually is, nor how much the constitution is actually followed. I'd be willing to guess "not much" in both cases if it's anything like here, but I can discuss the abstract concepts if that was the point of the discussion.

Well, you hit the mark with that. Government shall always grow in size, and increase it's scope, unless humans keep their government in check. “Not much” is something I would agree with.

[Personal responsibility is a big thing for me, so if you wish for me to post every/some news article to show how each “What if” has happened, I would be more than glad to as I am committed to the text I write.]


(Lady Vulpix)
I do love my country but hate its government. However, I wouldn't cause nor join an uprising because violence is not the solution and because I've seen how those things end. I'd much rather work on peaceful alternatives. They take longer but they're a lot more effective in the long run, and without the nasty side-effect of people getting killed.


I am not advocating violence first and foremost, but I am definetly open to why people may or maynot feel this way.

Personally, I am from the line of thinking that enough is enough: A government that does not protect the Life, Liberty, and Property of the People is not a legitimate government.

A quote that comes to mind from Thomas Jefferson:

“What country before ever existed a century & a half without a rebellion? & what country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon & pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it's natural manure.”
(http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/jefferson/105.html)

We could discuss his line of thinking in this matter. What if the government decides to not give a trial to a person that speaks ill of their government, and detains them indefinitely? Do we remain peaceful or do we defend our Life?

What kind of peaceful alternatives are there to alter or abolish government? I am interested since I am for peaceful revolution, but do not know how that would work out.

Revolutions don't always lead to good things; they may lead to another oligarchy.


Tldr: Not imposing views, not here to fight, just here to learn and discuss opinions from people around the world. Life, Liberty, and Property. American Constitution. Global fight for Liberty.
*edit* Original Question/point of thread: If there were a revolution, would you fight or remain on the sidelines?

I apologize for large post, and for time delay. [English is my 2nd language btw, sry]

Lady Vulpix
19th December 2011, 08:13 AM
Well, I'm glad to see my fears were unfounded. And you don't have to apologize for your English, it's very good as far as I can tell. English is my second language too.

So you're an immigrant in the USA and have committed yourself to the country's politics? That's interesting.

I don't live in a country where all dissidents are silenced, but it was like that when I was born. That government fell under its own weight because, while they could and did kill a lot of people, they couldn't kill thoughts. By the time I was 3 years old, most people had become aware of the atrocities the de facto government was committing, and there was a general discomfort all over the country. So the "president" started an impossible war in hopes of focusing everyone's attention and creating a sense of patriotism that could allow him to keep his power. It worked for a few months thanks to the censorship of all international communications, but in the end people realized they'd only sent their sons to die in a frozen desert. There were uprisings, but no one entered the Pink House to point a gun at the president this time. People were fed up with dictatorships. They called for elections.

That's how we had the first election in many years. I couldn't vote yet, I was just 3 years old, but I was allowed into the dark room with my mum, and I could tell it was important.

We've had a democracy since then. Not a very good one, we still have a lot to learn about how to make a democracy work properly (and almost everyone who knew how to do it was killed during the last dictatorship). But one thing I'm sure about is that I don't want anyone to usurp the government again. We will need to find ways to improve civic education (and education in general), and learn how to use the democratic channels to prevent the president (or anyone else) from having absolute power. And also help people learn to vote wisely, rather than voting for the one with the biggest smile on the posters. I believe it can be done within a couple of decades or so.

Link
19th December 2011, 10:11 AM
Let's not spam, please.

Follow your own advice, please.