Does rejecting give women an ego-rush or something? (follow up to shazza's topic)

[Zak]

(Or men too, for that matter, just couldn't fit that in the thread title.)

Was gonna post this rant in the Moontain (probably with much harsher choice language and less words haha, but apologies in advance if I somehow offend anyone anyway, not really expecting to though) but figured it could actually make a pretty decent serious/reasonable Misc discussion and would much rather prefer Misc-replies anyway, so here goes.
I actually even was considering bringing it up in shazza's 'Approaching' topic, but in hindsight it's better as its own thread.

So this actually has nothing at all to do with me personally or anything that happened, but a general observation I noticed from things like Facebook posts/statuses, blogs, or discussions/gossip I happened to be around/present during (but wasn't really my business).
Yes, not my business indeed and in most cases I have no right to judge, but some of it strikes an angry chord or a faith-lost-in-humanity chord that I can't resist commenting on... and anyway if it's something they're announcing/bragging to the world about in something like a public blog or FB post then technically I have every right to judge. :)


So anyway, on to the topic itself:
So we've all seen that thread I was talking about about "approaching women" and general standpoints from nervous/hesitant approachers. Why are they so nervous and hesitant?

Well, perhaps this degrading general standpoint that they may see second-hand from the approachees (as I do) should explain why.
NOT to generalize or anything... but based on some behind-the-back posts/discussions I've been seeing, it would seem that for a lot of girls, whenever they blow off some guy, regardless of how they went about it, seem to get a huge ego rush or power trip from the feeling and somehow let the fact that it happened go to their head. And the more rude or nasty they are about it, whether it's behind their back or to their face, the more satisfaction they get.

Now, I can totally understand if it's someone who becomes an obnoxious parasite who doesn't take hints and won't leave them alone, possibly even to the point where they feel unsafe, they have every right to complain.
Or if was someone who was blatantly off/awkward in a kind of funny/goofy way, sure I would suppose that merits a good laugh (but not to the extent of demonization).

But, innocent people who act and go about it appropriately and do nothing wrong, and rather than getting a simple "no", even after accepting it they get brutally demonized behind their back (and in some cases, to their face)... that's just not cool, and whenever I see something like that it makes me wish chivalry was dead.

For instance... there are always a fair share of "so this guy at work was hitting on me..." followed by them calling them a few choice words or talking about how weird they are... and a funny thing is, none of what they say actually implies they did anything inappropriate, and ironically even the only ever description they use during that 'rant' is "he's a nice guy but...". Yeah, okay, you twat, if 'nice' is the only describing word they come up with to fit into that rant, then clearly they are deserving of that demonization.

And then, posts like these would follow with their girlfriends giving 'calming' replies like "oh, I feel ya", "happens to me too", "I'm sorry you had to deal with that"... sympathetic posts, like they are a victim of something. Like as if it's a situation that requires sympathy.
Then there are other one like "my friend asked me out and I blocked him lolololol"

Here is an example of one that clearly takes the cake (and kind of drove me to make this topic):


Dear Man-Who-Hit-On-Me-This-Evening,
I hope you aren't thinking about my current boyfriend.
Especially because I invented this boyfriend who isn't real to get you to stop hitting on me.
Men who don't even exist are better than you.
xo (name)

And this post was followed by comments like the ones I described above.

And believe it or not, I've probably seen at least a dozen posts of that nature from numerous people. I don't know about you, but to me that's disgusting and degrading. Some of you might see people like that as someone with a parasite on her back, but all I see is a stupid stuck-up cunt trying to sound tough and seeking attention. Maybe if they were in high school I could overlook that kind of behavior, but no, these are college undergrads that act like this (at least online).
Just like its reasonable to complain about people that don't get hints, I think people that let it go to their head so far that they feel the need to add a whole extra fuck-you even the first time rather than a simple "no" are just as bad.

To be fair I won't deny that men might do it too sometimes, but from my witnessing/experience, the only men I've ever seen act like that are mostly what you'd call "bro"s. As far as girls go, it seems anyone ranging from preps to even those that seem the most down-to-earth might potentially do it.
Thankfully I haven't seen it from anyone I'm particularly close with, if I did I would probably call them on it. But really, it's things like that that make me wish FB had an app that let you comment on posts anonymously like news-articles or blogs.

And the biggest irony... I notice that a lot of these same people always ask aloud "why do men have no confidence?" like in shazza's topic.
Gee, I wonder, perhaps if this kind of degrading behavior was exhibited less in their presence, maybe they would be more confident. Perhaps they are afraid of having to hear them add an extra fuck-you, or better yet, be demonized and treated as a monster behind their back, regardless of how polite/formal/respectful they are about it? Maybe they often see posts like that and think "what if it had been me they were talking about?" I know that's what my thoughts are every time I come across one of those. Luckily it doesn't affect my confidence as much as it used to.

/end rant

Whew... alright, done with that. So yeah... thoughts, opinions, etc.

[Lady Vulpix]

I've rejected quite a few guys. It didn't give me an ego rush, in fact it made me feel sorry and a little upset, but I still prefer that to having a relationship with someone who makes me feel uncomfortable just because he wants it. And believe me, guys have many ways to make a woman feel uncomfortable. For example -to name the latest case-, by saying "you can't decide whether or not we're compatible until we've walked together for a while. And by 'walked together' I mean 'had sex'".

As for how I reject them, I try to be as polite and subtle as possible, giving only the details he asks for and trying my best not to hurt him. This usually leads to long explanations, in the last case even by e-mail. In that case I even tried to suggest what kind of woman would be best for him. I even tried the "it's not you, it's me" speech once, which led him to tell me I'd turn 40 and still be single, virgin and surrounded by cats. :rolleyes: I put up with it and he got a new girlfriend less than 2 weeks later. The only time when I had to repeatedly tell a guy to stop calling me - and even told him that he was crazy - was when the guy started harassing me with phone calls several times a day.

[ChobiChibi]

I feel kinda bad, cos I have had experience of this recently. Whilst at the expo, I got hit on by a guy in a storm trooper helmet. He "bumped" into me on the tube (it was so staged it was unreal, ask Weasel), asked for a sympathy hug, then for my phone number.

Now I keep getting texts daily, a lot of them making him sound like an arrogant person, most recently he's asked to meet up. This is the exact reason I haven't said "I have a boyfriend, stop texting me", because that's the excuse every girl uses! But I do have a boyfriend! Its frustrating! I'm really not interested in seeing him in the slightest.

And its not just because I have no idea what he really looks like. Its because he keeps asking me for photos. It just seems creepy.

[Zak]

I've rejected quite a few guys. It didn't give me an ego rush, in fact it made me feel sorry and a little upset, but I still prefer that to having a relationship with someone who makes me feel uncomfortable just because he wants it.

Yeah but who said anything about agreeing? I'm not talking about agreeing to relationships vs. declining, I was referring to simply declining nicely/bluntly (like you seem to) vs. declining with an unnecessary extra beat-down and bragging about it to your friends and the world as if you just won something.
Unless, like I said, they deserve it (and the guys you described sound like they do anyway, hah)

[Zak]

I feel kinda bad, cos I have had experience of this recently. Whilst at the expo, I got hit on by a guy in a storm trooper helmet. He "bumped" into me on the tube (it was so staged it was unreal, ask Weasel), asked for a sympathy hug, then for my phone number.

Now I keep getting texts daily, a lot of them making him sound like an arrogant person, most recently he's asked to meet up. This is the exact reason I haven't said "I have a boyfriend, stop texting me", because that's the excuse every girl uses! But I do have a boyfriend! Its frustrating! I'm really not interested in seeing him in the slightest.

And its not just because I have no idea what he really looks like. Its because he keeps asking me for photos. It just seems creepy.

Well, sorry if I made you feel bad, because you shouldn't since that experience sounds like the complete opposite/antithesis of what I described. I mean you DO have a boyfriend and you already gave him your number after kindly telling him that, so I'd say you're more than in the clear and any further persistance from and you have every right and reason to tell him to go fuck himself, since he seems like a douchebag who deserves it.

I'm talking about innocent people who are already getting alienated after the mere first slightest advance.

[Shadow Wolf]

Well, I'm not sure if I'm going to make sense with what I'm about to say, but I hope that I do.

I think that the key word for these and many other situations is "ego". As far as I've seen in some cases, I have reached the conclusion that good values like chivalry are reserved for "friendzoned" guys and girls (this term is more used for guys, but I believe it applies for both, nonetheless). What I've seen is that some people are just attracted to people with greater ego than theirs. Is like, the bigger the ego, the harder it will be to "win" me and the "more" I deserve for being such an attractive (high-ego) person.

Now, whenever there are people who, instead of ego, develop qualities that are important, like respect, chivalry, consideration, and things like that, they usually are answered with: "You're nice, but...", "You're not my type...", and others like this. Plus, since the stereotypes for attractiveness are very influenced by the media, many people prefer looks over values.

Now, speaking a bit about that situation, my opinion is that, whenever someone approaches X person, and is not "worthy" of becoming a potential partner, that person brands him/her with the sign of disapproval and thus, he/she is "allowed" to disrespect said person because, again, that person is not on his/her league (kinda similar to rich vs poor people, and similar stereotypes, don't you think?)

Finally, I believe that is not only disgusting, but also harmful for both parties. One end tries to be a good person, only to realize that "good guys usually don't win" (Kinda remembering The Mask on this one) and the other end will meet the day when he/she will realize that the ego made him/her lose things that truly matter in life.

Anyway, I'm usually naive with these topics, since I lack experience, but I kinda wanted to share my two cents. I just hope that I made sense, though. :sweat2:

[Zak]

I mostly agree with you Shadow Wolf...


Well, I'm not sure if I'm going to make sense with what I'm about to say, but I hope that I do.

I think that the key word for these and many other situations is "ego". As far as I've seen in some cases, I have reached the conclusion that good values like chivalry are reserved for "friendzoned" guys and girls (this term is more used for guys, but I believe it applies for both, nonetheless). What I've seen is that some people are just attracted to people with greater ego than theirs. Is like, the bigger the ego, the harder it will be to "win" me and the "more" I deserve for being such an attractive (high-ego) person.

Bingo. That's why, when you ask someone out, the most important thing is to completely avoid inflating their ego in the slightest bit, make it be about you rather than them and how much they'll be missing out. I know that might seem like manipulation, but unfortunately for many it's the efficient way to 'win'. The slightest complement to them is potentially a nail in the coffin.
Usually the flaws they see are because you are trying too hard, or as they say "putting them on a pedestal". The only thing you should be trying hard is NOT putting them on a pedestal.


Now, whenever there are people who, instead of ego, develop qualities that are important, like respect, chivalry, consideration, and things like that, they usually are answered with: "You're nice, but...", "You're not my type...", and others like this. Plus, since the stereotypes for attractiveness are very influenced by the media, many people prefer looks over values.

Yeah but looks aren't really the factor I'm referring to, that's a whole different discussion altogether.


Now, speaking a bit about that situation, my opinion is that, whenever someone approaches X person, and is not "worthy" of becoming a potential partner, that person brands him/her with the sign of disapproval and thus, he/she is "allowed" to disrespect said person because, again, that person is not on his/her league (kinda similar to rich vs poor people, and similar stereotypes, don't you think?)

You kind of lost me... its a bit unclear in that paragraph who you're saying is allowed to disrespect who and who isn't in who's league. Could go either way with entirely different messages. :P


Finally, I believe that is not only disgusting, but also harmful for both parties. One end tries to be a good person, only to realize that "good guys usually don't win" (Kinda remembering The Mask on this one) and the other end will meet the day when he/she will realize that the ego made him/her lose things that truly matter in life.

Anyway, I'm usually naive with these topics, since I lack experience, but I kinda wanted to share my two cents. I just hope that I made sense, though. :sweat2:

Well there's your green light to have the last word and make them feel guilty (because they deserve it, assuming they don't have some other more pressing reason).

But I was talking about classification in general... I meant their cunty behavior.

EDIT: I guess that's what you meant in the third paragraph where you lost me.

[Lady Vulpix]

I think it's just a certain kind of people who acts that way, and I don't believe those people are worth pursuing. Someday they'll probably realize that the world doesn't revolve around them, and then they may or may not learn the lesson and become better towards others.

It did happen to me once, when I was 20. I was starting to find a guy attractive, and had started to smile at him in hopes that he would notice. When he did notice, he told me "just to make things clear, it looks like you're feeling attracted to me but I have no intention of having any kind of relationship with you". Any positive feelings I may had felt for him disappeared at that moment. Then he proceeded to treat me like trash for a while and - me being who I am - I fought back and we had many long arguments. Then a few years went by when we didn't see each other. The next time I saw him I was at a bar, he walked in, saw me and then walked out. The following time was at university, he seemed to want to talk this time, so I humored him: he told me he was working and having trouble with teamwork (no wonder!). Then I saw him again a few years later and he had become more humble. I made him apologize for the things he did and said to me way back when. Maybe I shouldn't have held a grudge for so long, but I do feel better now. I don't care whether or not I ever see him again, but if I do, we should be able to talk like old classmates without hard feelings interfering.

[PNT510]

I can't speak for everyone, but I had a friend who would be pretty harsh to most guys that approached her. For her I don't think it was an ego thing, it was a frustration thing. Every time we'd go out there'd be some guy hitting on her. Can't go to CVS to buy milk without someone in line trying to get her number. So she would just kinda lash out and shoot them all down.

[Zak]

I can't speak for everyone, but I had a friend who would be pretty harsh to most guys that approached her. For her I don't think it was an ego thing, it was a frustration thing. Every time we'd go out there'd be some guy hitting on her. Can't go to CVS to buy milk without someone in line trying to get her number. So she would just kinda lash out and shoot them all down.

Your town sounds like a sketchy slum. Random people in the street/in passing that you'd probably never see again otherwise, clinging like that is almost unheard of here (though I'm sure it happens in some parts of Boston itself). Sure, engaging random strangers in conversation and flirting, happens a lot, but never heard of people immediately asking strangers for their phone number in a checkout line.

[Asilynne]

I can't speak for all women mainly because I'm an odd one but, I come out if a situation like that feeling awkward and honestly bad for the guy, and thats if I actually notice I'm being hit on. If they seem like nice guys or are good friends I follow a nice "I'm taken" up with a "but I have some single friends!" If be happy if I could pair up all the good people I know :)

[Lady Vulpix]

I can't speak for all women mainly because I'm an odd one but, I come out if a situation like that feeling awkward and honestly bad for the guy, and thats if I actually notice I'm being hit on.Me too, but - just like Zak said to me - that's not the kind of rejection he was talking about.

But I think this does show that it's not women or men in general, but a specific group of people who do that. My suggestion is to stay away from those, at least until they mature.

[Heald]

Zak, you couldn't have written a more beta topic if you tried.

Try being more alpha like me.

[Zak]

Zak, you couldn't have written a more beta topic if you tried.

Try being more alpha like me.

You mean like a 'bro'? No thanks. Go gloat about your 'alpha'-ness somewhere else like Mt. Moon, I posted this here for a reason.
Sounds like it goes to your head too. Figures.

But like I said, this has nothing to do with me, personally.

But anyway. Did you not see my reply to Shadow Wolf?

[Samchu]

Sadly, I think the ego issue is wrapped up inside a greater issue of shallowness. Ok, I know the argument regarding how society has been influenced to think their potential partners should look like has been done to death but I think they have some grounding in this issue. Look at the examples provided by both Zak and Becki, in both instances looks have come into play. Whatever the unnamed woman in Zak's example might argue, her issue with the man is most probably that she didn't think him "worthy" of her on an attractive level. This is often common of the "you're a nice guy but..." comment which often is cover for "you have great personal qualities but I couldn't be seen with you in public." And this goes for men as well as women. The guy who approached Becki did so on the basis of her appearance.

Now don't get me wrong, it's human nature to make appearance judgements. But I do fear that we are in fact heading closer and closer to a society where these values are judged much higher than personality and I fear that many women and men alike (obviously, there are exceptions to the rule) are being brought up on the assumption that it is acceptable to consider themselves above an individual who does not meet this physical expectations.

For example, in the 90s in the UK, there was a show called Blind Date. Not sure if you had an American equivalent but I have seen similar type cosplay events at US cons so something similar may exist over there. It had a simple premise. A man or a woman came on to a show with three questions to ask their perspective date. On the other side of a wall were three contestants. Each contestant answered the questions and the 'winner' was decided based upon the responses that they gave. Only then was the identity of the contestant revealed.

Now, we have a show called 'Take Me Out', which features large numbers of one gender deciding whether or not they are interested in a member of the other gender, who is presented to them in a manner akin to a star prize on a game show. 9/10 (if not more frequently than this) the decision is made before the individual being judged opens their mouth. They can be rejected solely on the grounds that they gel their hair or have an eyebrow piercing.

This is, regrettably, even true of dating sites. Whilst they promote matches based on compatible personality traits, far too many people on said sites will receive messages from potential partners purely on the grounds that they think they are "hot", regardless of whether or not they share any interests. And how many times have you heard of someone on a dating site complain that they went on a date with someone who didn't exactly match their profile picture? They might still be a doctor who loves romantic dinners but if they've got more freckles in real life than they do in the picture they're out.

I'm inclined to agree with the above. Chivalry isn't dead but it's pretty much doomed to the friend-zone. And "nerds" might the in thing but if you're not a "hottie" with glasses you've basically got the same chances you've always had.

[Zak]

Sadly, I think the ego issue is wrapped up inside a greater issue of shallowness. Ok, I know the argument regarding how society has been influenced to think their potential partners should look like has been done to death but I think they have some grounding in this issue. Look at the examples provided by both Zak and Becki, in both instances looks have come into play. Whatever the unnamed woman in Zak's example might argue, her issue with the man is most probably that she didn't think him "worthy" of her on an attractive level. This is often common of the "you're a nice guy but..." comment which often is cover for "you have great personal qualities but I couldn't be seen with you in public." And this goes for men as well as women. The guy who approached Becki did so on the basis of her appearance.

So if someone isn't 'worthy' that's grounds for them to rub it in their face by being a cunt? Great logic there.
Of course, not saying you think that, you're probably just stating the facts. Hence why the best way to go about this is to give the idea of "hey, I know what's going through your head and you are way off and that's not gonna work with me", down until you have the very last word. Probably won't necessarily win them (it may in some cases), but at least it lets them know that they underestimated you, and the fact that you're even ballsy enough to stand up about that might even already merit a reconsideration. Like I said, mind games.
Being determined to not be a pushover is already a big enough step and will open up a lot of doors because it'll make them realized they poorly misjudged and what a cunt they are. :)


Now don't get me wrong, it's human nature to make appearance judgements. But I do fear that we are in fact heading closer and closer to a society where these values are judged much higher than personality and I fear that many women and men alike (obviously, there are exceptions to the rule) are being brought up on the assumption that it is acceptable to consider themselves above an individual who does not meet this physical expectations.

If it's a physical issue then in most (not all) cases that's their own fault for not taking care of their body/appearance or being wary of how they dress when they are perfectly capable of either. Hence why that's wasn't my point.


For example, in the 90s in the UK, there was a show called Blind Date. Not sure if you had an American equivalent but I have seen similar type cosplay events at US cons so something similar may exist over there. It had a simple premise. A man or a woman came on to a show with three questions to ask their perspective date. On the other side of a wall were three contestants. Each contestant answered the questions and the 'winner' was decided based upon the responses that they gave. Only then was the identity of the contestant revealed.

Now, we have a show called 'Take Me Out', which features large numbers of one gender deciding whether or not they are interested in a member of the other gender, who is presented to them in a manner akin to a star prize on a game show. 9/10 (if not more frequently than this) the decision is made before the individual being judged opens their mouth. They can be rejected solely on the grounds that they gel their hair or have an eyebrow piercing.

Well, that's reality TV which is way over-dramatized for ratings anyway, take that with a grain of salt.


This is, regrettably, even true of dating sites. Whilst they promote matches based on compatible personality traits, far too many people on said sites will receive messages from potential partners purely on the grounds that they think they are "hot", regardless of whether or not they share any interests. And how many times have you heard of someone on a dating site complain that they went on a date with someone who didn't exactly match their profile picture? They might still be a doctor who loves romantic dinners but if they've got more freckles in real life than they do in the picture they're out.

I've never heard of that, but if that sort of thing is ruled out after about a week of talking, then they shouldn't be on those sites.


I'm inclined to agree with the above. Chivalry isn't dead but it's pretty much doomed to the friend-zone. And "nerds" might the in thing but if you're not a "hottie" with glasses you've basically got the same chances you've always had.

That's not necessarily true, I've seen some 'nerds' without glasses get kind of far with that. And chivalry IS dead and should stay dead, all it really takes is for a guy to realize that and say that, and then, bam, it opens up so many doors of opportunity. Truth.

[Crystal Mew]

Ok, once when a guy asked me on the bus if I would go out with him, and then replied with "I'm not a cereal (serial) killer...I like tony the tiger" I had to just tell people because seriously, what the f? lol and of course I rejected him..but he was a creep.

but usually I feel bad, and I don't tell people that it happened on facebook. I dunno. it doesn't give me an ego rush, more like a funny story to tell my close friends.

[Zak]

Ok, once when a guy asked me on the bus if I would go out with him, and then replied with "I'm not a cereal (serial) killer...I like tony the tiger" I had to just tell people because seriously, what the f? lol and of course I rejected him..but he was a creep.

but usually I feel bad, and I don't tell people that it happened on facebook. I dunno. it doesn't give me an ego rush, more like a funny story to tell my close friends.


Now, I can totally understand if it's someone who becomes an obnoxious parasite who doesn't take hints and won't leave them alone, possibly even to the point where they feel unsafe, they have every right to complain.
Or if was someone who was blatantly off/awkward in a kind of funny/goofy way, sure I would suppose that merits a good laugh (but not to the extent of demonization).

Pretty sure you're in the clear as far as my examples are concerned.

[DarkestLight]

Well now. >.> Beta topic this might be but I'm as zetta as they come nowadays, so hear me out :D.

Now. Ya'll know me. I'm silly and goofy and people always say I can find any respectable girl in the world 'cause I have charisma and charm and blah blah blah. SHE-NAN-I-GANS. Prior to my last relationship, I tried to ask women out. In alot of settings. On Campus, around my block, out after a night on the club, whatevs whatevs. I'd say the breakdown was as follows

45%-Friendzoned
35%-Slayed. Not just regular slayed. some straight Beowolf rejection shit which was completely uncalled for! Sometimes I'd hear the backlash, like "Well he was nice, but he was so weird (I'm weird, but I'm that goofy smart weird where it can be awkward, but I'm not..but I am?)and I can't be seen with that."
20%-Some consideration. But it never worked out for me, so that's why I stopped. Soon as I stopped... yeah, world flipped on its head. But I digress.

Continuing from the 35%: "Bitch, you not the finest fruit roll-up in town!" is what I wanna say, but I don't.

Or, back on Myspace (cause FB wasn't awesome yet) there would be a shitstorm of comments like "Ha, this guy asked me out, complete loser. He didn't even have a car." and then the demonizing began-links to my profile, some snarky comments.

For those women, it's a mix of an ego boost and a defensive mechanism. They may have been hit on 20-30 times that night. They may not like black guys, or heard horror stories. They might be in a relationship but they're out at a club flirting up a storm and being cockteases. They may have just gotten out of a serious relationship and wanna just screw with guys :/ There are hundreds of variables. But I agree. No reason to take your shitstorm piss-poor ego and try to lash back at me for just asking if you wanna go out for a Faygo and a slice of pizza sometimes ($2.25 back in the day, what what!), and then go tell your group of Lock Ness creatures what you accomplished for a round of hoots and manatee calls.

It gets me mad :/ Currently, I can't say that's happened to me. Haven't cared to look at women since my own breakup and all, but like I said. The world has flipped on its head. I've seen the backtalk from many a time on FB, and I do believe that chivalry needs to die on order to break these women (and men) down from their high horse. Then I'ma laugh at them and tell them you shouldn't be riding horses, ya cripple, just so they know what it feels like. Yeah, it begets the cycle all over, but for some at least, it'll serve a nice dish of humility. Do unto others, and all that.

Pride is only a step away from arrogance, and they choose to dance on that line far too often. Sucks most humans judge people based on 1) physical and 2) the first encounter.

I personally don't like chubby girls and beyond. My def of chubby is different than others. If yer three times as big as me, no. :/ Not mean, I have standards, shit. But I went out on dates with some. All nice people. All with mouths like sailors and could take jokes. All having to deal with the same shit about asking guys out on dates and being rejected and made fun of for it. All because "Alpha" pricks think they're the shit and that their standards need to be reverberated in a harsh manner that berates the person that showed interest in them. Then they go up against this guy with a hot chick, and lose. :/ Cause I'm a baws!

Moral of the story. Let the sorry punks have their moment of "victory" over someone Because once it happens to them, they'll be the ones crying for help over FB and not being nice about it, and then they'll get the colder side of reality. I just wish it happened sooner than later. Then creepers could be found out more readily and more people would find happiness in ways they really never encountered before.

Whoo. Morning post! Love it! Now to clean the snow off my car :/

[Asilynne]

I for one am glad chilvary is not dead, some of us ladies love it and don't abuse it! Just be observant and avoid the bitches :3

[BTPoke]

This is pretty much one of the reasons why I haven't ever asked a girl out before. For one thing, yes, I'm only 16-17 years old, and I for one think that High School relationships are meaningless.
However, I also see myself as a bit of a cynic in the way that I think "What if they reject me? What if she says things about me behind my back? What if other people laugh at me behind my back because of this?"

Really, I think many of the girls at my school are very nice people. However, I can't help but feel that there's a little part of them that will reject me in the harshest manner possible, simply because I'm not like any of the douchebags at my school.
I don't have a very good self-image of myself, and I feel that it would only make things worse if I were ever rejected in that harsh a manner.

I don't know for sure if they get an ego trip out of it, but that little cynical part of me agrees.

[Zak]

I for one am glad chilvary is not dead, some of us ladies love it and don't abuse it! Just be observant and avoid the bitches :3

I'm sure the ones who do abuse it could be capable of saying those exact same words and putting on a show as part of it. Not saying you are one of them, not that it's any of my business, just pointing that out and how fake they can be.

[Greyfox]

Girls get asked out constantly. By guys they know, by guys they don't know, guys who've only seen them once, etc. Hell, just earlier this afternoon one of my coworkers got asked out by a complete stranger.

If they're attractive, then some guy's definitely asked for their number, for a date, or even just sex -- 9 times out of 10, the people asking them out are douchebags. You can only be nice about it so many times before you get tired of being asked.

If they're not interested in you, just leave it at that. The problem's with them, not you. They shouldn't hafta give a reason to why they're rejecting you, because a simple no is enough. Anything more than that is just politeness.

A girl's not shallow because she's got standards. Attraction is very important. Some people get it through appearance, some through personality, and others through a combination of the two.

So the next time you get rejected, just say "Alright then," and leave it at that. Don't call her a bitch, don't demand an explanation, just walk away.

[Zak]

Girls get asked out constantly. By guys they know, by guys they don't know, guys who've only seen them once, etc. Hell, just earlier this afternoon one of my coworkers got asked out by a complete stranger.

If they're attractive, then some guy's definitely asked for their number, for a date, or even just sex -- 9 times out of 10, the people asking them out are douchebags. You can only be nice about it so many times before you get tired of being asked.

If they're not interested in you, just leave it at that. The problem's with them, not you. They shouldn't hafta give a reason to why they're rejecting you, because a simple no is enough. Anything more than that is just politeness.

A girl's not shallow because she's got standards. Attraction is very important. Some people get it through appearance, some through personality, and others through a combination of the two.

So the next time you get rejected, just say "Alright then," and leave it at that. Don't call her a bitch, don't demand an explanation, just walk away.


Did you even bother to read the thread, or did you just blindly assume it was like the 1000 other threads having to do with the same thing? It sounds like you completely missed the point of this topic.

[Greyfox]

I'm gonna be honest with you -- everything I read from you came off as whining over someone rejecting you in a colorful way. I'm not saying that people should berate the people who are asking them out, but I can't also say that I don't blame them for it. Girls get asked out all the time by people they aren't attracted to. All. The. Time. After awhile, you'd start to feel jaded about the entire thing and either be rude about it or antagonistic.

"You could've just said 'no' doesn't cut it, because saying no doesn't work all the time. Hell, it doesn't even work most of the time, because most of the guys that are asking these girls out just refuse to take that for an answer. I'm not saying that you're one of those guys at all -- you could be the nicest guy in the world -- but they don't know that.

You hafta realize that a lot of these girls aren't laughing out of malice or spite. They're doing it because that's the only thing that works. Like I said before, they get asked out constantly. It takes way too much patience to politely decline that many people.

[Zak]

I'm gonna be honest with you -- everything I read from you came off as whining over someone rejecting you in a colorful way.

Well, that first sentence alone clearly you didn't read anything beyond the thread title and did indeed pass it off as one of the million other threads like this.
Because I clearly stated that this had nothing to do with me. And thankfully, for the record, that hasn't even happened in a long time. Nice try though.

If you actually bothered reading my post, Andy, you'd see that I was talking about second-hand comments I see on Facebook, blogs, or overhear during conversations at lunch and stuff that I'm not involved in, and my observations based on that. That is all.


Yeah, so stop talking out of your ass and pretending you actually read any of my posts. Honestly, I would expect better reading comprehension from a former Misc mod.
Not to mention that starting a sentence with "I'm going to be honest" followed by a lie about having read something when you didn't, is kind of intelligence-insulting.


So, yeah, come back when you've actually read it and can contribute something worthwhile rather than foolishly state the obvious like "don't call her a bitch, don't demand an explanation" etc., as that is also kind of intelligence-insulting.

Anyone who tries to justify that would have to be pretty messed up, and at no point in any of my posts did I condone anything remotely close to either of those things. Saying that I did, only makes it difficult for anyone to take you seriously or even believe that you read anything.

[Greyfox]

It wasn't my intention to sound condescending, Zak.

Reading through the thread did give me the impression that you were masking frustration over rejection with discussion, and I apologize for assuming that that's what the thread was ultimately about. I could give an excuse about being jaded over hearing so-called "nice guys" complain about rejection, but that's neither here nor there, so I'll just read through the thread again to get a better grasp on it.


(Or men too, for that matter, just couldn't fit that in the thread title.)

You should definitely consider rewording the thread title. Maybe say "people" instead of women.


Was gonna post this rant in the Moontain (probably with much harsher choice language and less words haha, but apologies in advance if I somehow offend anyone anyway, not really expecting to though) but figured it could actually make a pretty decent serious/reasonable Misc discussion and would much rather prefer Misc-replies anyway, so here goes.
I actually even was considering bringing it up in shazza's 'Approaching' topic, but in hindsight it's better as its own thread.

So this actually has nothing at all to do with me personally or anything that happened, but a general observation I noticed from things like Facebook posts/statuses, blogs, or discussions/gossip I happened to be around/present during (but wasn't really my business).
Yes, not my business indeed and in most cases I have no right to judge, but some of it strikes an angry chord or a faith-lost-in-humanity chord that I can't resist commenting on... and anyway if it's something they're announcing/bragging to the world about in something like a public blog or FB post then technically I have every right to judge. :)

This paragraph right here is what ultimately made me think that you were masking rejection. Apologies for the assumption; it was wrong of me to do so. Whenever I read or hear "This isn't about me" or similar, I think the opposite. 'specially when it's about approaching women.


So anyway, on to the topic itself:
So we've all seen that thread I was talking about about "approaching women" and general standpoints from nervous/hesitant approachers. Why are they so nervous and hesitant?

Well, perhaps this degrading general standpoint that they may see second-hand from the approachees (as I do) should explain why.
NOT to generalize or anything... but based on some behind-the-back posts/discussions I've been seeing, it would seem that for a lot of girls, whenever they blow off some guy, regardless of how they went about it, seem to get a huge ego rush or power trip from the feeling and somehow let the fact that it happened go to their head. And the more rude or nasty they are about it, whether it's behind their back or to their face, the more satisfaction they get.

The ego-boost probably comes not from being approached by someone or feeling themselves "superior" to that someone, but from actually being empowered enough to say no.


Now, I can totally understand if it's someone who becomes an obnoxious parasite who doesn't take hints and won't leave them alone, possibly even to the point where they feel unsafe, they have every right to complain.
Or if was someone who was blatantly off/awkward in a kind of funny/goofy way, sure I would suppose that merits a good laugh (but not to the extent of demonization).

But, innocent people who act and go about it appropriately and do nothing wrong, and rather than getting a simple "no", even after accepting it they get brutally demonized behind their back (and in some cases, to their face)... that's just not cool, and whenever I see something like that it makes me wish chivalry was dead.

Consider it a defense mechanism designed to ward off douchebags. Unfortunately, you can't tell if someone's a complete douche right off the bat, so you just blow off everyone who approaches you. It sounds unfair, and it really is, but if you give someone an inch, they'll try to take a foot or more.


For instance... there are always a fair share of "so this guy at work was hitting on me..." followed by them calling them a few choice words or talking about how weird they are... and a funny thing is, none of what they say actually implies they did anything inappropriate, and ironically even the only ever description they use during that 'rant' is "he's a nice guy but...". Yeah, okay, you twat, if 'nice' is the only describing word they come up with to fit into that rant, then clearly they are deserving of that demonization.

"He's really nice, but..." is a good enough reason. But really, any reason is reason enough. Obviously, if she was talking about how weird he was, then "nice" wasn't the only descriptive she had to say about him.


And then, posts like these would follow with their girlfriends giving 'calming' replies like "oh, I feel ya", "happens to me too", "I'm sorry you had to deal with that"... sympathetic posts, like they are a victim of something. Like as if it's a situation that requires sympathy.

Then there are other one like "my friend asked me out and I blocked him lolololol"

Why doesn't being made uncomfortable by someone you do or don't know warrant sympathetic responses from your friends?


Here is an example of one that clearly takes the cake (and kind of drove me to make this topic):

Dear Man-Who-Hit-On-Me-This-Evening,
I hope you aren't thinking about my current boyfriend.
Especially because I invented this boyfriend who isn't real to get you to stop hitting on me.
Men who don't even exist are better than you.
xo (name)

And this post was followed by comments like the ones I described above.

What's wrong with this? She was being harassed by someone she didn't like, so she did something about it to get him to stop. As a result, she felt either empowered and wanted to share, or frustrated and wanted to vent.


And believe it or not, I've probably seen at least a dozen posts of that nature from numerous people. I don't know about you, but to me that's disgusting and degrading. Some of you might see people like that as someone with a parasite on her back, but all I see is a stupid stuck-up cunt trying to sound tough and seeking attention. Maybe if they were in high school I could overlook that kind of behavior, but no, these are college undergrads that act like this (at least online).
Just like its reasonable to complain about people that don't get hints, I think people that let it go to their head so far that they feel the need to add a whole extra fuck-you even the first time rather than a simple "no" are just as bad.

If a simple no was all that was needed to dissuade a creeper from hitting on you, then that'd be amazing. And college years, especially, is primetime for being hit on by undesirable men, which is why you see this kind of behavior more frequently.


To be fair I won't deny that men might do it too sometimes, but from my witnessing/experience, the only men I've ever seen act like that are mostly what you'd call "bro"s. As far as girls go, it seems anyone ranging from preps to even those that seem the most down-to-earth might potentially do it.

Guys don't get hit on nearly as often as women do. That's why it appears as though we are more respectful. I'm sure that if I got hit on day after day from girls who wanted nothing more than to jump me and dump me, I'd start being a bit more aggressive with the way I rejected 'em too.


Thankfully I haven't seen it from anyone I'm particularly close with, if I did I would probably call them on it. But really, it's things like that that make me wish FB had an app that let you comment on posts anonymously like news-articles or blogs.

And the biggest irony... I notice that a lot of these same people always ask aloud "why do men have no confidence?" like in shazza's topic.
Gee, I wonder, perhaps if this kind of degrading behavior was exhibited less in their presence, maybe they would be more confident. Perhaps they are afraid of having to hear them add an extra fuck-you, or better yet, be demonized and treated as a monster behind their back, regardless of how polite/formal/respectful they are about it? Maybe they often see posts like that and think "what if it had been me they were talking about?" I know that's what my thoughts are every time I come across one of those. Luckily it doesn't affect my confidence as much as it used to.

/end rant

Whew... alright, done with that. So yeah... thoughts, opinions, etc.[/quote]

If your confidence is shattered when someone rejects you (no matter how heinous their rejection may be), then you just need to buck up and be more confident. Their shitty rejection doesn't have anything to do with you and everything to do with them handling the situation in their own way. You might say it's hard to be confident when everyone is rejecting you, but you can always just fake it.

After awhile of faking it, it'll eventually blend into real confidence and you won't even be able to tell the difference.

[Zak]

Thanks, I greatly appreciate the time to reply.


It wasn't my intention to sound condescending, Zak.

Reading through the thread did give me the impression that you were masking frustration over rejection with discussion, and I apologize for assuming that that's what the thread was ultimately about. I could give an excuse about being jaded over hearing so-called "nice guys" complain about rejection, but that's neither here nor there, so I'll just read through the thread again to get a better grasp on it.

Yeah, that's kind of what I meant when I said lumping it with the million other threads about this subject, glad you realize it.
I mean, I won't deny that it's happened before (honestly, who hasn't it happened to?), but either way the fact remains that I didn't make this thread to discuss that or what to do in those situations.


You should definitely consider rewording the thread title. Maybe say "people" instead of women.


I did think about that actually upon initially posting the thread, but from my observation (as a secondhand OUTSIDER observer, as in not counting my own experiences) the ratio is stronger. Which does make sense, because usually they are the ones who get asked, hence, the ones that pick and choose.



This paragraph right here is what ultimately made me think that you were masking rejection. Apologies for the assumption; it was wrong of me to do so. Whenever I read or hear "This isn't about me" or similar, I think the opposite. 'specially when it's about approaching women.


Apology accepted/appreciated.

But yeah, regardless of whether it is or isn't about me, the purpose of this thread targeted to discuss stuff specifically unrelated to me, so yeah.


The ego-boost probably comes not from being approached by someone or feeling themselves "superior" to that someone, but from actually being empowered enough to say no.


I don't really see what's so difficult/empowering about that. "Hey, look at me, I can say no! I have the upper hand now!"
Okay.


Consider it a defense mechanism designed to ward off douchebags. Unfortunately, you can't tell if someone's a complete douche right off the bat, so you just blow off everyone who approaches you. It sounds unfair, and it really is, but if you give someone an inch, they'll try to take a foot or more.

They also end up ruining a lot of potential friendships this way, they must be REAL proud of that. Well, actually, you're right, they probably don't mean to and it's just a defense mechanism. BUT, the only issue is in situations like this sometimes they would blame the guy for ruining that potential friendship, when it really was them who did themselves with that behavior.
Sometimes innocently asking someone out CAN ruin a friendship even when you don't do anything wrong like harass, and then they try to make it seem like you did do something wrong... that's what crosses the line and probably the reason a lot of people are not confident.


"He's really nice, but..." is a good enough reason. But really, any reason is reason enough. Obviously, if she was talking about how weird he was, then "nice" wasn't the only descriptive she had to say about him.


Well, in addition to being nice, someone being 'weird' doesn't exactly warrant that kind of abusive demonization I was talking about. Maybe if they were to resort to harassment or stalking or making one feel unsafe or threatened, but generally that sort of thing isn't indicated (it is sometimes, and when it is, that response is totally warranted), but as long as it isn't, they're just making an ass of themselves.
Usually the description they give seems to conjure up an image of one of those nerdy kids who was a social misfit that would get picked on in high school, and as long as they're using "nice", then it would also imply he was pretty much harmless and innocent.
Of course, as a secondhand observation I don't know for sure how harmless they are, but as long as they are posting on a public utility where anyone can read and judge and conjuring up that kind image, they just look (to me and probably a handful of others) like sick jerks for demonizing like that.


Why doesn't being made uncomfortable by someone you do or don't know warrant sympathetic responses from your friends?

See above. From your really close friends maybe, but to many others (like myself) they just sound like jerks who are crying for attention and degrading others in the process... unless they somehow indicate they were actually being threatened or harassed.


What's wrong with this? She was being harassed by someone she didn't like, so she did something about it to get him to stop. As a result, she felt either empowered and wanted to share, or frustrated and wanted to vent.


Again, see above. Didn't really sound to me in that post like she was being harassed hardcore, or even remotely 'harassed'. So to me it just kinda came off as a cry for attention. I'm sure the chances she was being harassed are solid, but that doesn't change the fact that when I read that post I'd like to tell her to go fuck herself rather than sympathize. I'm sure it's not just me.


If a simple no was all that was needed to dissuade a creeper from hitting on you, then that'd be amazing. And college years, especially, is primetime for being hit on by undesirable men, which is why you see this kind of behavior more frequently.


Now, you're slowly starting to sound like them, using the phrase 'undesirable men' in such a dehumanizing way like they're some kind of parasite or monster.


Guys don't get hit on nearly as often as women do. That's why it appears as though we are more respectful. I'm sure that if I got hit on day after day from girls who wanted nothing more than to jump me and dump me, I'd start being a bit more aggressive with the way I rejected 'em too.


Well, I did address the fact that men do it as well.


If your confidence is shattered when someone rejects you (no matter how heinous their rejection may be), then you just need to buck up and be more confident. Their shitty rejection doesn't have anything to do with you and everything to do with them handling the situation in their own way. You might say it's hard to be confident when everyone is rejecting you, but you can always just fake it.

After awhile of faking it, it'll eventually blend into real confidence and you won't even be able to tell the difference.

Bingo... if you noticed in my replies to Shadow Wolf among some others, that is pretty much exactly what I do. Part of the reason why it hasn't happened in a while. :)

But even if it works out for me occasionally, that's not gonna stop me from gritting teeth whenever I see a post like that secondhand.

[Asilynne]

I'm sure the ones who do abuse it could be capable of saying those exact same words and putting on a show as part of it. Not saying you are one of them, not that it's any of my business, just pointing that out and how fake they can be.

So will you do as the bitchy girls do then, and punish innocents for the actions of a select few, simply because you believe attacking first will keep you from getting hurt by what someone "might" do? No, its easy to become cynical and adopt an "go on the offensive, preempt all possible attacks" policy, but that can hurt innocent people as well as yourself. You'll just become the sort of person you are complaining about.

Life is hard and people will hurt you, gender, race, religion, sexuality, the group doesn't matter and you should never take it as a group thing as the title of this thread suggests. "Why do women..." Groups us all in the same basket when the question should be "why do some people..." You need to learn to take each person as an individual, if one woman hurts you or a friend, thats on HER, not the rest of us. Give people the benefit of the doubt, man up, and face the world unafraid.

I sympathize with you, I really do, but don't use your pain to justify being unkind to any woman just in case shes one of the ones who might use you, because that isn't right, and you may miss out because of it.

As for what type of woman I am, just ask my husband.

[Greyfox]

I don't really see what's so difficult/empowering about that. "Hey, look at me, I can say no! I have the upper hand now!"

Saying no is empowering though. It means that you're in charge of a situation, and that you won't stand being forced into something.


They also end up ruining a lot of potential friendships this way, they must be REAL proud of that. Well, actually, you're right, they probably don't mean to and it's just a defense mechanism. BUT, the only issue is in situations like this sometimes they would blame the guy for ruining that potential friendship, when it really was them who did themselves with that behavior.

That really depends on the scenario though. If you approach a girl you don't know and she chews you out for trying to say hi, then there definitely wasn't going to be a friendship there anyway. Least not a good one anyway.


Sometimes innocently asking someone out CAN ruin a friendship even when you don't do anything wrong like harass, and then they try to make it seem like you did do something wrong... that's what crosses the line and probably the reason a lot of people are not confident.

I suppose it can sometimes, but if you're truly friends with someone you're attracted to and that's how they respond, then how good could that friendship've been?


Well, in addition to being nice, someone being 'weird' doesn't exactly warrant that kind of abusive demonization I was talking about. Maybe if they were to resort to harassment or stalking or making one feel unsafe or threatened, but generally that sort of thing isn't indicated (it is sometimes, and when it is, that response is totally warranted), but as long as it isn't, they're just making an ass of themselves.
Usually the description they give seems to conjure up an image of one of those nerdy kids who was a social misfit that would get picked on in high school, and as long as they're using "nice", then it would also imply he was pretty much harmless and innocent.
Of course, as a secondhand observation I don't know for sure how harmless they are, but as long as they are posting on a public utility where anyone can read and judge and conjuring up that kind image, they just look (to me and probably a handful of others) like sick jerks for demonizing like that.

Unfortunately, there's no real way to tell if the guy in question was being friendly for real or just using it for an ulterior motive.


See above. From your really close friends maybe, but to many others (like myself) they just sound like jerks who are crying for attention and degrading others in the process... unless they somehow indicate they were actually being threatened or harassed.

Perhaps. Maybe this girl is the type that knows exactly what she wants and acts accordingly upon finding it. That said, she might prefer pursuing rather than being pursued.


Again, see above. Didn't really sound to me in that post like she was being harassed hardcore, or even remotely 'harassed'. So to me it just kinda came off as a cry for attention. I'm sure the chances she was being harassed are solid, but that doesn't change the fact that when I read that post I'd like to tell her to go fuck herself rather than sympathize. I'm sure it's not just me.

Depends on her definition to harassment. Maybe she just wanted to enjoy her evening out with her friends. Society would just scoff at her and tell her that she should just stay in to avoid being hit on by bar scaggs, but that puts the power entirely in their hands.


Now, you're slowly starting to sound like them, using the phrase 'undesirable men' in such a dehumanizing way like they're some kind of parasite or monster.

'Undesirable men' as in douchebags and bar scaggs, not genuinely nice guys they aren't attracted to. Unfortunately, the ratio of douchebags:nice guys tips so favorably on the side of douche.


Bingo... if you noticed in my replies to Shadow Wolf among some others, that is pretty much exactly what I do. Part of the reason why it hasn't happened in a while. :)

But even if it works out for me occasionally, that's not gonna stop me from gritting teeth whenever I see a post like that secondhand.

In an ideal world, men and women would pay for their own drinks and be free to wear whatever they wanted without being hounded by douchey members of the other genders.

[Heald]

You mean like a 'bro'? No thanks. Go gloat about your 'alpha'-ness somewhere else like Mt. Moon, I posted this here for a reason.
Sounds like it goes to your head too. Figures.
lolwut

If you want a serious reply then here it is: some people make themselves feel better by making others feel worse about themselves. Some of these are women. Women can easily do this by rejecting a man in a humiliating way. It is usually a sign of a person's insecurity about their themselves more than it is a sign of that person's confidence.

tl;dr version: bitches be stepping

[Telume]

It's this exact reason why I refused to ask out a lot of the girls in high school.

And then I come back and see a few of them a few years later: 20, married and pregnant.

Or worse: 22 and pregnant (or worse: 2 KIDS!)

Hah, glad I didn't get myself into that ^ kind of trouble. I'd hate to be the father, especially with how some of the girls around here are.

I understand if you don't think I'm your type, but be frank about it. It takes a lot of courage to ask someone out.

And I've actually never seen men do it. What I HAVE seen men do though is try to overtake you in a conversation if they think you're an inferior man.

Just my 2 cents.

[DarkestLight]

As for what type of woman I am, just ask my husband.




As for what type of woman I am, just ask my husband.


::Swift clackity clack.::

Ben: DL! It's good to hear from you. I appreciate the letter. Thanks for asking how I am. Asi is a wonderful woman, and a great wife. I see daylight 2 hours a day. Otherwise I am downstairs, chained to our BDSM bed, or I am washing sheets that need to be used for the next night. Sometime I am allowed to interact with the family pets, but when that whistle blows, I know its time to be submissive and suck her toes. It's not a bad lifestyle, I still am allowed to romp in the yard where there a mural of Adelaide she painted for me and I kinda feel like I am at home.

GET-ME-OUT-OF-HERE!

[Zak]

lolwut

If you want a serious reply then here it is: some people make themselves feel better by making others feel worse about themselves. Some of these are women. Women can easily do this by rejecting a man in a humiliating way. It is usually a sign of a person's insecurity about their themselves more than it is a sign of that person's confidence.

tl;dr version: bitches be stepping

Bingo. I said the exact same thing (which I'll rephrase) in one of my replies when I was talking about how its important to make sure you have the upper hand. I said how the best way to approach someone is to make it be about you and being their loss rather than about them, avoid buttering them up and putting on a pedastool entirely. The more you make it about yourself, the more sign of confidence there is, because in a way you are beating them at their own game.
Guess we are on the same page then because I am well aware of how efficient that is (which it is).

Also the best way to avoid any sort of 'friendzone' (usually) is whenever you feel compelled to suck up to them or comfort them, do the opposite. Even if it 'feels' wrong, because like Greyfox said before to fake it. If you really wanna get laid then it really is worth that leap of faith, because it shows you're not constantly worried about what she's thinking.

p.s. will reply to Grey later

[Magmar]

It did happen to me once, when I was 20. I was starting to find a guy attractive etc.

Interesting story... Something similar happened to me not too long ago, but the context was that I was taken, and I was on the other end of this. I had met a guy at a store I worked at, and he seemed really nice, attractive, "my type" etc. He ended up buying something heavy so I carried it out to his car, and he ultimately asked me for my number. We went on a couple of dates, and I quickly realized that he was the type that thought he could just buy my interest by taking me out on really expensive dates. He bragged about his family legacy, private school education, etc. and that stuff really turns me off because, well, I grew up dirt poor. So he went on vacation for a while and I started to see other people.

A couple months later, I was out at a bar with my roommate talking about how I had a great first date with someone (that someone is actually really special as our one-year anniversary is this week! :)) and he was at the bar on a date with someone else. I ignored him.

I saw him out another time... I almost talked to him, but he left in a huff for some reason, so it went unnoticed again.

I finally ran into him while at a bar for a Shangela event. I decided it was worth talking to him and apologizing for not pursuing him and giving him a cold shoulder. He was drunk and actually flipped out on me, belittling me and trying to tear apart my character. I was mindful and purposeful in the conversation, owning what I did do wrong but not owning his accusations because they were unfounded and probably would have made a weaker-willed person break down in tears. Ultimately I told him that if he wanted to remain friends, I was okay with that, but that I am very happy with the man I am with. Turns out my boyfriend went to high school with him, was his summer camp leader, and my new friends I met through my boyfriend (as well as my boyfriend) are all people that eventually cut him off for the same reasons I cut him off. He kept saying that I somehow "stole" his friends when, in reality, they were never his friends and had cut him off long ago...

Since they're all from another state and somehow ended up in my city, that's really awkward.

Well, once this conversation finally ended, he started following me around at the bar, grabbed my butt, kissed his hand and put it on my face, etc. I was really sketched out so I stayed outside the bar for the rest of the show and ultimately ended up being in the right place at the right time, was one of the first to meet Shangela (a famous and ABSOLUTELY FABULOUS drag queen), and practically cried on her shoulder after all that happened <3 she's a sweetheart and told me I'm beautiful so it's all good! I will forever be a fan of Shangela as a result of that evening.

Nonetheless, my lesson learned here is that sometimes even assholes try to come across as nice guys, but their facade is quickly revealed once you get to know them.

As for being turned down... Well, I've done my share of turning down men, actually, turned down so many guys it's probably shameful. I can't even go to the bar without being hit on repeatedly, even once I insist I have a boyfriend and show pictures on my phone and everything. It's like a happily taken guy is the hardest to get and it becomes a challenge. I can't even just be nice to strangers sitting near me without people asking for my number. So instead, I try to set them up with my roommate and play matchmaker all night... Much more fulfilling (and fun!), and usually works out well! Apparently I define 'extravert'. But I never shame people I've rejected... unless they're persistent once I disclose my relationship status. It's not funny or cool to turn someone down... It's a necessary evil.

I guess the moral of this story is, just be yourself and smile often, and people will gravitate towards you because they will want to know you. Zak, you seem like you're highly intelligent and have a sharp wit, so maybe you should approach some introverts who also seem to be very smart. I don't think you'd be a good fit with someone who likes to turn people down for fun. You'll find her. She's out there :)

[Asilynne]

While we're asking questions I'd like to know why people feel its ok to say hurtful things about me, you guys might think its funny but I don't. Its very offensive to me because its not me at all and I rather hate whipped men. I married to have an equal.

[Magmar]

I perceived the comment to be like "that's absolutely preposterous and only funny in the extent to which it's completely unbelievable"... Sorry if I offended you by quoting it :( I'll edit it out of my post so that you don't have to be reminded since it makes you uncomfortable.

[ChobiChibi]

I honestly don't think DL meant it to be hurtful, he's not the spiteful type. I think he was trying to point out that Ben's not been around much recently, that's all.

He might also have made a similar comment to Brian, for example. We're currently seeing a lot more of Brian than Becky at the moment (where it used to be the other way round), and this also seems to have coincided with their wedding.

I did find it funny, not in a "omg Asi has Ben whipped" way, but in a "Ben's not around so much anymore" way. Sorry D:

[Greyfox]

Also the best way to avoid any sort of 'friendzone' (usually) is whenever you feel compelled to suck up to them or comfort them, do the opposite. Even if it 'feels' wrong, because like Greyfox said before to fake it. If you really wanna get laid then it really is worth that leap of faith, because it shows you're not constantly worried about what she's thinking.

Fake confidence, sure, because that ultimately turns into real confidence. But don't be a dick to the girl just because you want to avoid the so-called "friendzone".

Personally, I don't really believe in that sort of place. I think it's just a term people use to cast blame on the other person instead of coming to terms with the fact that they're just not attractive to the person they're trying to attract.

[Zak]

Fake confidence, sure, because that ultimately turns into real confidence. But don't be a dick to the girl just because you want to avoid the so-called "friendzone".

Personally, I don't really believe in that sort of place. I think it's just a term people use to cast blame on the other person instead of coming to terms with the fact that they're just not attractive to the person they're trying to attract.


I wouldn't be so sure about that. I know some guys that would be generally considered physically attractive and having a 'charming personality' that have been in the friend-zone situation with certain girls, who they previously were somewhat close with (and I don't necessarily consider myself below-average, either).
Perhaps some people are just 'too close to home', by their standards! Of course, I still don't necessarily agree with that being a reason to rule someone out, but just pointing that it's possible that that really is how they genuinely feel and it's not just a mask for 'not attractive enough'.

It kind of makes sense. Four years ago, my second-cousin (who is not blood-related to me) told me she was into me, as in, like that... well, it's not like I grew up with her or see her on a regular basis, but I never really thought about it as it probably would have been out of the question to pursue, and even if it wasn't, it wouldn't work out since she lives in Israel.

Also, as far as 'being a dick' goes, it depends how you go about it, sometimes it is efficient as long as it's tactful rather than just jarringly passive-aggressive to the point that it makes her angry and not want to talk to you. I'm sure many agree that it IS an efficient way to avoid it. As long as it's just enough to say 'you can't walk all over me' without being a complete douche. Try it yourself sometime if you ever feel like taking that leap of faith.

[Ultimate Charizard]

From a near 30 year old whos in just this situation and terrified of taking a chance...

"Quit whining as to why its their fault and look at why you would be rejected".

Took me too long to work that one out.

[DarkestLight]

O.~ Yeeeeeeeeah ....Pm

[RedStarWarrior]

Holy text walls.

I'm sure some pretentious self-absorbed bitches get off on going above and beyond to hurt others, but I believe it's a bit of an over generalization to say that all women are like that. You are basing it only on those that are posting such business on Facebook to begin with. The best correlation you can actually make is that those who are willing to publically bash and chastise their admirers possibly get pleasure out of it.

[shazza]

Granted I haven't read the thread due to the copious amount of text that RedStarWarrior alluded to.

Pretty much, the girls that get an ego-rush from brushing off guys are girls you really don't want to be with. They are vain and insecure. This is quite obvious and I am certain I am not the first to observe this.

But this shouldn't be even of your concern. You are the catch; it is their loss. And if in any way their own ego rush bothers you, then that is nothing but an indication of your own unresolved insecurities and unhealthy attachment to your own ego. When attempting to talk to girls, you have to put the ego aside. When you think you are not good enough, or getting worked up about girls' own temoary ego boosts, that is nothing but your own ego playing tricks on you.

You're going to get rejected and, indeed, the ego may sting initially. But it's all a part of it. At least you did what you wanted to do. Rejection is a part of your life, and if your ego is dependent on rejection, when in reality they do not know the real you, then you won't get very far.

Your ego is against you. Beat your ego and you will no longer even have a second thought about a girl's ego that you're most probably never going to meet again.

Truly confident guys will simply laugh at the juvenile antics of these girls' ego. So, it is not the girls that are hurting your confidence, it is your own perception of it and your own perception of yourself. It is entirely up to you how you react to them.

Read Eckhart Tolle.

Edit: This is slightly relevant and not at anyone in particular: it is not a dichotomy between nice guys and assholes, but strong guys and weak guys. The flaunted "nice guy" is one of the most manipulative, beta, self-pitying group of people that exist. And they are opposite to what being nice truly is. If you are being nice for an ulterior motive, and getting jaded when you get friendzoned without being assertive of your intentions, then you need to revalue how you perceive yourself and the world.

Edit 2: Just read Greyfox's comment: "The ego-boost probably comes not from being approached by someone or feeling themselves "superior" to that someone, but from actually being empowered enough to say no." This is very true and I hadn't overtly considered it. It is difficult to conclude where the motives of their ego boost lie, and to make inferences and getting emotional regarding your self-created assumptions is the ego winning - not the fact of reality itself. The ego boosts, if they are truly occurring or just perception, vary from girl to girl may: some may definitely feel superior to reject someone else, some may enjoy they are confident to say no rather than succumb to anyone's seduction when younger, and some may feel bad underneath but act as if they didn't care to mask their sympathy and guilt.

Categorising people and creating generalisations can help if it allows you to take short cuts in approaching the world, but they should be understood to only be helpful mind life hacks rather than being the reality of life. This is where racism and other negative stereotyping commences.

[Zak]

Sorry for delay been meaning to respond to this...



Granted I haven't read the thread due to the copious amount of text that RedStarWarrior alluded to.

Haha well looking at yours it does sound like you did at least take more time to read than most of those who replied here.


Pretty much, the girls that get an ego-rush from brushing off guys are girls you really don't want to be with. They are vain and insecure. This is quite obvious and I am certain I am not the first to observe this.

Well yeah that would be the general consensus, but I never said anything about wanting to be with these people, these are who I noticed from outside observation mainly, and sure some with me way back in the day when I had less of a sense of it.


But this shouldn't be even of your concern. You are the catch; it is their loss. And if in any way their own ego rush bothers you, then that is nothing but an indication of your own unresolved insecurities and unhealthy attachment to your own ego. When attempting to talk to girls, you have to put the ego aside. When you think you are not good enough, or getting worked up about girls' own temoary ego boosts, that is nothing but your own ego playing tricks on you.

Well yeah that is a given, but nobody likes someone who thinks they can walk all over you, and no one likes someone who can be easily walked all over.
If someone innocently asks someone out and the girl feels the need to add an extra fuck-you and alienate anyone who does by turning it into drama when all they wanted was a simple answer, of course that's gonna piss people off. Especially if they go so low as making you out to be the bad guy for doing it, like you were ding something wrong.

Never mind not wanting to be with them, but if that happened to me I would probably tell them to go fuck themselves ans that they didn't win anything (get the last word in). If that makes me "insecure" then so be it, I think if anything anyone with the need to pretend not to be fazed at all by that kind of situation just so they can feel "manly" or "alpha" are putting on a charade and are insecure themselves. It is a matter of principle.


You're going to get rejected and, indeed, the ego may sting initially. But it's all a part of it. At least you did what you wanted to do. Rejection is a part of your life, and if your ego is dependent on rejection, when in reality they do not know the real you, then you won't get very far.

Your ego is against you. Beat your ego and you will no longer even have a second thought about a girl's ego that you're most probably never going to meet again.

Again, matter of principle, depends on the situation and how they behave. If saying things like "there's no need to be rude" makes me 'insecure', then so be it. I think it gives moral higher ground regardless of how they take it, and if they shoot that statement down or try and say it was justified, then yes obviously I'd stop talking to them-- but not without getting a few words in myself. Matter of principle.


Truly confident guys will simply laugh at the juvenile antics of these girls' ego. So, it is not the girls that are hurting your confidence, it is your own perception of it and your own perception of yourself. It is entirely up to you how you react to them.

Read Eckhart Tolle.

They couldn't put a dent in my ego/confidence if they tried. It's not gonna affect my outlook on anything.
But as long as I see them picking a fight over it and blaming the guy for, yes I would laugh in their face, but I will think less of them (as in, that person specifically). And if that fight is with me, I wouldn't just sit there without making an effort to let them know how foolish/ridiculous their behavior is, even if it's futile.


Edit: This is slightly relevant and not at anyone in particular: it is not a dichotomy between nice guys and assholes, but strong guys and weak guys. The flaunted "nice guy" is one of the most manipulative, beta, self-pitying group of people that exist. And they are opposite to what being nice truly is. If you are being nice for an ulterior motive, and getting jaded when you get friendzoned without being assertive of your intentions, then you need to revalue how you perceive yourself and the world.

This is true and I definitely agree, know many naive guys like that.

But I think even those who are genuine and naturally nice, well, in a way they also have an 'ulterior motive', just to be respected in general, rather than just by some girl.
But I think some of these 'nice guys' you speak of, even ignoring the whole 'friendzone' thing, they also tend to get mentally abused, beaten up, disrespected and taken advantage of for it, like not just in girl situations but I see it happen at work too... and they have every right to be 'jaded' and 'self-pitying' for that, I don't know about manipulative.

Femenazi cunts always forget about respect for the other gender, maybe? Ever consider that? Everyone's always so focused on 'respect for women'... well maybe if it didn't go to their head they would realize they aren't who the world revolves around.


Edit 2: Just read Greyfox's comment: "The ego-boost probably comes not from being approached by someone or feeling themselves "superior" to that someone, but from actually being empowered enough to say no." This is very true and I hadn't overtly considered it. It is difficult to conclude where the motives of their ego boost lie, and to make inferences and getting emotional regarding your self-created assumptions is the ego winning - not the fact of reality itself. The ego boosts, if they are truly occurring or just perception, vary from girl to girl may: some may definitely feel superior to reject someone else, some may enjoy they are confident to say no rather than succumb to anyone's seduction when younger, and some may feel bad underneath but act as if they didn't care to mask their sympathy and guilt.

But when they are overly defensive when it's not necessary, then they kind of make a spectacle of themselves. I know it's best to walk away, but in most cases I'd probably be tempted to simply comment on it.


Categorising people and creating generalisations can help if it allows you to take short cuts in approaching the world, but they should be understood to only be helpful mind life hacks rather than being the reality of life. This is where racism and other negative stereotyping commences.

No going halfsies.