Connecticut School Shooting

[Telume]

It pains me to see the fact that there will be parents who will no longer be able to see their children for christmas. :( Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/15/nyregion/shooting-reported-at-connecticut-elementary-school.html?_r=0 Discuss.

[kaBoMBer's Notebook]

It's hard to fully comprehend just how horrible this was. It just can't sink into my mind...
I feel like saying many things, but no words are coming out.

[Knight of Time]

I saw this story earlier today...not only is it a terrible story, but it reminds me a lot of a similar school shooting out of Dunblane, Scotland that I first heard about in an old issue of TIME magazine, which had pretty much the same outcome (a bunch of kids in kindergarten killed, as well as their teacher)...just when are these school tragedies going to ever stop? :rolleyes:

[Cynder]

Ugh, this is absolutely disgusting; the first time that something has genuinely made me upset. I just can't comprehend how somebody could have the audacity to murder 20 random children. Seriously lost for words here.

[DivineAll]

I blame the fact that almost everyone thinks that the world is going to end next week. I mean, seriously? We've survived Y2K... we've survived Harold Camping (look him up).... I think we can survive the Mayan prophecy. Also, If you think about it... wouldn't it make more sense for the ancient Mayans to predict 12/12/12 was the end of the world instead of the 21st? Why the 21st? That still confuses me.

[Dark Sage]

I blame the fact that almost everyone thinks that the world is going to end next week. I mean, seriously? We've survived Y2K... we've survived Harold Camping (look him up).... I think we can survive the Mayan prophecy. Also, If you think about it... wouldn't it make more sense for the ancient Mayans to predict 12/12/12 was the end of the world instead of the 21st? Why the 21st? That still confuses me.

Harold Camping was a big jerk. The Mayans were lousy prophets (they couldn't predict what the Spaniards did to them, after all) and if you were to ask a real Mayan, he'd say that this prediction is nonsense.

As for what happened today, it gave me the scare of my life. My brother lives in Connecticut, he teaches, and for about half an hour, I didn't know whether or not this was his school. It wasn't, thank God. Still, watching the news and hearing that this lunatic gunned down a whole kindergarten class was too painful for me to watch.

I have a degree in psychology, and yet, there are some things that people do that I simply cannot fathom... Sometimes I think the whole world has gone utterly insane...

There's really nothing I can do except pray for those poor children. And maybe ask that everyone else do the same.

[MToolen]

There are so many different reactions I want to have to this that they wind up canceling each other out. I want to mourn the loss of these souls, though I don't have the slightest connection to any of them. I want to find a scapegoat, even though I know this is more than just a simple blame game. I want to find a solution for preventing this kind of thing from happening again, though people motivated to do this will more than likely always find a way. I have few words, but much that I feel I can't put into words, so I can't even imagine what it's like to actually be close to this. I try to distract myself, but I feel guilty doing so; I fear I may lose the sense of urgency this has brought even as I try to shed being shocked by the whole thing.

I've seen people in my social circles talk of psych profiles, of switching kids to homeschool, of gun control/rights; all I can concentrate on is how scary it is that we all have the capacity to be in any of the positions people have been put into today. And so I choose to spend time with family (and you guys, too) while I have it, to listen intently and not with half my focus. I can't let this fear debilitate me.

[Cindaquil]

I can't, nor could I ever, imagine what the families and friends are going through during this tragic time. A disgusting act and from a disgusting human being. As a Law Enforcement Officer myself, I can only imagine how those officers felt getting the call. The most helpless feeling in the world. I hope that I never have to go through something like that in my career. I pray for those families who have lost their loved ones, and the children who survived, whom are emotionally scared.

RIP.

[ChobiChibi]

I just saw someone trying to argue on Facebook that if US citizens didn't have the right to bare arms, they wouldn't be able to defend themselves from a shooting. Right, okay... There'd be less guns around, so you're less likely up get shot, therefore less likely to need to "defend" yourself with a gun... None of the kids/teachers had guns to defend themselves from the gunman... >>

Anyway, no more to be said on that. RIP to the children and teachers, and my thoughts are with their families and friends.

[RedStarWarrior]

Criminals will still have guns if there is a ban...

Anyway, this is a tragedy that gun laws wouldn't have prevented.

[ChobiChibi]

Oh, I know. If that guy really wanted a gun, he would have got himself one. That's why the UK has gun crime but no legal right to have guns...

[Heald]

True. But countries were gun ownership is low and where it is extremely difficult for anyone, whether law-abiding or a criminal, to gain access to such weaponry generally have far lower rates of homicides caused by guns than the USA.

Americans who are not in favour of tackling their gun problem, or those who vote for politicians who are not going to tackle the gun problem, have no right to feel shocked or appalled by such atrocities. To them, the lives of children and other victims are merely the tax paid in blood so they can hang onto their weapons. The gun debate has resurfaced and it will die away again in the face of opposition. Then it will resurface the next time a bunch of kids are murdered. Until Americans take their gun problem seriously, these innocent lives are not tragedies, they're necessary sacrifices to Charlton Heston.

[Mikachu Yukitatsu]

Our foreign minister Erkki Tuomioja once introduced an option how every gun in town could be stored in a lodge or some other warehouse only, one that belongs to the local hunter companionship. His proposal wasn't taken seriously, obviously that would be a too easy target for a robbery and the burglar would gain lots of weapons.

[Roy Karrde]

True. But countries were gun ownership is low and where it is extremely difficult for anyone, whether law-abiding or a criminal, to gain access to such weaponry generally have far lower rates of homicides caused by guns than the USA.

Yeah but I don't see that happening in America merely because we have a massive open border that specializes in transporting illegal goods into the United States. We have seen constantly with drugs that banning something merely drives it underground which in this case would make the guns in attacks untraceable and thus make it even harder to find the shooter.

If we were to pull ALL the guns out of everyone's hands in America, and completely lock down the southern border to stop the flow of illegal material, then we could possibly obtain something similar to those countries.

[Cindaquil]

This guy was apparently denied by Dick's Sporting Good when he tried to purchase a firearm, thus, he went to his mothers house and took hers. The system worked in that particular instance. This also proves that this act was done maliciously, and not by someone who isn't in control of his own actions. Sickening.

[ChobiChibi]

Yeah but I don't see that happening in America merely because we have a massive open border that specializes in transporting illegal goods into the United States. We have seen constantly with drugs that banning something merely drives it underground which in this case would make the guns in attacks untraceable and thus make it even harder to find the shooter.

If we were to pull ALL the guns out of everyone's hands in America, and completely lock down the southern border to stop the flow of illegal material, then we could possibly obtain something similar to those countries.

Roy Karrde, everyone. Bitching about Mexicans crossing the border since the swine flu outbreak.

We also get illegal imports of drugs and guns and stuff... But I'm not gonna say any more. Cos there's no point arguing with you, because you don't see reason. Just Mexicans.

[Dark Sage]

Better than that psycho Congressman who actually said that more guns were the answer, saying that it would have been prevented if the principal had been armed.

Who was he again? I forget, some lunatic from Texas. Guys like that make their voices heard every time there's a mass shooting, and they make me want to puke.

[kaBoMBer's Notebook]

Whether or not gun laws are to blame may never be known. I think it's just plain and simple that once in a blue moon, a guys who makes horribly wrong decisions comes along. No level of planning or law passing can prevent that (reduce the odds, but only to a certain extent). That of course doesn't justify the actions, but it must be borne in mind when looking at man's history and future.

According to a man from that district in Connecticut who visited, that town was practically identical to the one I live in. Here, something like that would go completely unforeseen Nobody would've seen it coming here, so I can assume nobody could have seen it coming there.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is that a chain of events and decisions from when that guy was born (or before) until last Friday is all we can blame here.

[Roy Karrde]

Better than that psycho Congressman who actually said that more guns were the answer, saying that it would have been prevented if the principal had been armed.

Who was he again? I forget, some lunatic from Texas. Guys like that make their voices heard every time there's a mass shooting, and they make me want to puke.

You know I'm not sure honestly, when you have a undefended school it is just asking for mass murder, either from a outsider or from a student. Having a gun locked up but used in the event of a emergency may save lives.

[Dark Sage]

Roy, you know how gun nuts like Heston (a guy who played Moses, btw, biggest hypocrite who ever lived) make threats like "you can have my gun when you pry it from my cold, dead hands"?

That threat is very misleading. Taking a gun from a dead person is incredibly easy.

And if that principal had tried to use a gun, unskilled, against that lunatic, she would have been dead before she could have gotten a shot off, and would have made the situation worse.

An elementary school teacher bringing a gun to work... The very idea is ludicrous.

[Roy Karrde]

Roy, you know how gun nuts like Heston (a guy who played Moses, btw, biggest hypocrite who ever lived) make threats like "you can have my gun when you pry it from my cold, dead hands"?

That threat is very misleading. Taking a gun from a dead person is incredibly easy.

And if that principal had tried to use a gun, unskilled, against that lunatic, she would have been dead before she could have gotten a shot off, and would have made the situation worse.

An elementary school teacher bringing a gun to work... The very idea is ludicrous.

Shouldn't we then have the leadership trained then to handle a gun? If not a teacher than a principal? It seems more logical than being fish in a barrel waiting for the police to come.

[kaBoMBer's Notebook]

Shouldn't we then have the leadership trained then to handle a gun? If not a teacher than a principal? It seems more logical than being fish in a barrel waiting for the police to come.

Before this escalates any further, it should be noted that this kind of event isn't common and that much, much more practical ways of defense exist. It's more likely to be hit by a hurricane or start a fire, I'll bet.

[Roy Karrde]

Before this escalates any further, it should be noted that this kind of event isn't common and that much, much more practical ways of defense exist. It's more likely to be hit by a hurricane or start a fire, I'll bet.

Of course, but I mean I see things like Columbine and this and say "Well what if.."

[Heald]

I really don't think it would help anyone if Principals were encouraged or forced to keep a weapon in their office, mainly because Principals are human beings too. Nothing to stop a Principal having a bad week to go off on one, or forget to secure the gun cabinet. Or what if the Principal had a disability (e.g. sight problems, wheelchair, one arm, Parkinsons etc) that would prevent them from handling a weapon safely.

Furthermore, if this became common, any would-be mass murderer would just go to the Principal first.

The idea that all schools are mass murders waiting to happen, and instead of tackling the issue as to why it is so easy for would-be murderers to get their hands on weaponry that is designed to kill dozens of human beings in a short space of time, we should just be turning schools into fortresses with armed guards, is such a ludicrous response that I really can't believe you are seriously suggesting it. Teachers cannot be expected to handle firearms as part of their day-to-day duty.

True, it is extremely easy for criminals to get hold of automatic weaponry legally or illegally, and in the case of a ban on such weaponry, criminals would still be able to get their hands on such weapons, but, generally speaking, criminals are not the ones shooting up schools, cinemas, malls and other civilian targets. The perpetrators in these cases are people with absolutely no criminal record and those that, in the event of a ban on assault weapons, would find it increasingly difficult to get their hands on such weapons. They certainly wouldn't steal them or go on the black market as the perpetrators have no criminal connections whatsoever.

[kaBoMBer's Notebook]

Roy, I see your point, but it would bring more controversy than help.

[Roy Karrde]

True, it is extremely easy for criminals to get hold of automatic weaponry legally or illegally, and in the case of a ban on such weaponry, criminals would still be able to get their hands on such weapons, but, generally speaking, criminals are not the ones shooting up schools, cinemas, malls and other civilian targets. The perpetrators in these cases are people with absolutely no criminal record and those that, in the event of a ban on assault weapons, would find it increasingly difficult to get their hands on such weapons. They certainly wouldn't steal them or go on the black market as the perpetrators have no criminal connections whatsoever.

But do you honestly need to have criminal connections to get your hand on illegal things? I can go down to the bad parts of South Dallas to find any drugs I wish to get my hands on and I have absolutely no criminal connections. All people need to do is seek out the area that has the lowest amount of police activity ( Which sadly is the poorest areas ) to find the black market in goods.

[Heald]

But do you honestly need to have criminal connections to get your hand on illegal things? I can go down to the bad parts of South Dallas to find any drugs I wish to get my hands on and I have absolutely no criminal connections. All people need to do is seek out the area that has the lowest amount of police activity ( Which sadly is the poorest areas ) to find the black market in goods.
Is a 20 year old socially awkward honours student really going to go find some thugs in downtown and get weapons from them? I really doubt it somehow. Technically, it was illegal for Adam Lanza to have access to the kind of weapons he used, but the legality of such weapons for people like his mother meant he was able to very easily take them from his home. I imagine if Adam really had no other way to get hold of an assault weapon except by finding and dealing with illegal arms dealers, the likelihood would strongly be that he wouldn't have gotten access to them. I'm not saying this would stop all school shootings, but I imagine in 9 out of 10 cases, stopping the perpetrators from getting hold of the weapons easily would have either averted the tragedy or stopped the body count from being so high.

[Dark Sage]

You Republicans are something else.

You oppose gun control, and then support the death penalty when crimes like this happen.

[kaBoMBer's Notebook]

Let's take this down like five notches... This thread is about the event, not politics, gun laws, and morals.

[Dark Sage]

Well, I'm going to state my case until I drive some sense into Roy's skull.

Gun-rights advocates keep telling me that they use guns for "recreational purposes", and I think it's BS. A gun is a weapon that can kill a human being, end of story. A gun that cannot kill is NOT a gun. It is not something that everyone should be allowed to have.

The Second Amendment is fine. However in my opinion, whoever wants to own one should have to undergo the same classes and training that a police officer (or at very least, a security guard) must undergo before being allowed to have one. That would be the smart thing to do.

[Roy Karrde]

The Second Amendment is fine. However in my opinion, whoever wants to own one should have to undergo the same classes and training that a police officer (or at very least, a security guard) must undergo before being allowed to have one. That would be the smart thing to do.

I completely agree with you, we need better trained individuals, especially those that wish to engage in Conceal/Carry to stop a criminal shooter

[DarkestLight]

Here's a point.

This tragedy is sad.

But I'm also sad for the family of the shooter, something most people don't have the inherent compassion to understand, given the circumstance. It's sad all around.

But I'm not dealing with this anymore. I'm honestly sickened by how the media horridly botched up coverage and the tastelessness of the news to the point of talking with kids after the damn event. Let the Mayans be right, please! Cull about 4 million people off the earth.

[Oslo]

the tastelessness of the news to the point of talking with kids after the damn event

This to the ends of the earth and beyond. It's exploitative and disgusting and does nothing but sensationalize.

[Blademaster]

About the shooting: Any loss of human life is sad. The loss of twenty at once, all of which were children, is tragic. That being said, I'd really like to stop hearing about it. It was tragic when it happened; now it's just unnecessarily dumping depression on someone else's day to keep bringing it up.

About the shooter: I know my head is going to wind up on a plate for this, but the guy who did this was autistic. Literally a retard. And a retard with parental issues, no less. This does not justify what he did, but it saddens me that in a day and age where we can put robots on other planets, we still adhere to the pettiness that drives us to want to take revenge and end lives ourselves (which is why we're supposedly angry in the first place) instead of doing more research on mental disorders so that we can limit future occurrences like this. People like this don't belong in jail or the electric chair. They belong in institutions where their disorders can be studied and ultimately treated, just like we've treated almost every other disease we've discovered in medical history.

About gun control: This shit is more or less pointless to argue over because gun control specifically isn't the issue. Almost everyone in Switzerland owns a gun and gun-related crime is practically nonexistent there. Conversely, almost nobody in Japan owns a gun due to the strict regulations required to even acquire one, yet gun violence there is more or less unheard of, too. The problem isn't with guns, it's with people. The U.S. has a MASSIVE population, which means it has more criminals and plain old idiots than most of the rest of the world. We may not be the worst in the entire world, but as far as first-world nations go, the U.S. is an utter disgrace when it comes to gun crime. Most of this stems from overworked and repeatedly sidetracked law/military officers that our superiors would apparently rather see solve every other nations' problems than our own. If we can focus our efforts on problems at home and make progress to educate people on just how dated and misconstrued their precious second amendment is (which I believe only applies to taking up arms against a tyrannical government anyway, as opposed to just whoever you feel like is a threat to you), THEN we can start talking about limiting guns. As it stands now, the issue is far too ingrained and divisive to hope to tackle directly.

[Oslo]

About the shooter: I know my head is going to wind up on a plate for this, but the guy who did this was autistic. Literally a retard. And a retard with parental issues, no less. This does not justify what he did, but it saddens me that in a day and age where we can put robots on other planets, we still adhere to the pettiness that drives us to want to take revenge and end lives ourselves (which is why we're supposedly angry in the first place) instead of doing more research on mental disorders so that we can limit future occurrences like this. People like this don't belong in jail or the electric chair. They belong in institutions where their disorders can be studied and ultimately treated, just like we've treated almost every other disease we've discovered in medical history.

I agree that mental health should be the primary talking point and I agree that we should care for rather than criminalize these pathologies, but I don't believe institutionalization is the answer. Institutions focus on segregation rather than rehabilitation and reinscribe harmful social paradigms; if you want to read more about the subject, I recommend Asylums by Erving Goffman. It's the seminal text on the subject of deinstitutionalisation. An oldie but a goodie.

Also, correlation does not necessarily imply causation. There is no definitive link between autism and violence. It's possible Lanza had a whole spectrum of disorders that couldn't be conclusively diagnosed simply because current screening methods aren't effective enough. Psychology in its modern form is a relatively young discipline and there's still so much we don't know, which is why we need to continue having productive conversations about mental health so that we can remove the stigmas that surround these issues. As someone who has watched his brother struggle with both a severe mental disorder and the futility of current treatment methods, I recognize the importance of overhauling the way our society handles mental health.

[Blademaster]

Well when I say 'institutions' I just mean a hospital/treatment center for the mind instead of the body. I don't know if such places exist, but I always personally just correlated the word 'institution' with the good parts of the idea and the word 'asylum' with the bad crazy-house electroshock parts of it. There must be someplace where this stuff gets actively studied instead of just spending a lifetime isolated and being handled with kid gloves...

Also autism may not mean violence, but it does skew one's ability to socialize and communicate. So it could very well be frustrating enough to make a more functional person lash out in anger... I don't know. I'm not a doctor, and even good doctors have no real idea what autism does to the mind (not the brain). Again, it needs more study, but sadly the funding for such studies often takes a backseat to that of military and infrastructural issues...

The more time I spend on the Internet, the more I see that I'm not as alone as I used to think. More and more people seem to have the same thoughts that I always did but didn't realize were common. I really hope that as my generation gets older, more of those people gain positions of power so that this sort of awareness can spread. I wouldn't mind at all if some politicians gained the brains (and the cojones) to make the public more aware of the sorts of ideas and discussions that we go over.

[Roy Karrde]

What is sad is that many times the only way a person can seek mental help is through the jail system. I really would suggest reading this blog post by a mother who deals with a VERY violent kid who suffers from mental disorders.

http://anarchistsoccermom.blogspot.com/2012/12/thinking-unthinkable.html?m=1

[RedStarWarrior]

Guns are not the problem. Unstable people are the problem. Take away the guns and you'll get more homemade pipe bombs and other related shit. Crazy people will still be crazy.

[Magmar]

*Wanders in to the melee that is this thread..*

Oh my gosh, this tragedy hit so close to home. Literally, it's about an hour *points west* that way. I have a brother in kindergarten. I still don't even have words to describe how I feel about what happened.

My best friend/roommate works in a small business with one other woman whose nephew is in kindergarten at Sandy Hook. He survived, but his best friend and many classmates didn't. I don't know how this family is going to tackle this tragedy when addressing a 5-year-old who barely survived, who lost friends and a teacher.

Here, it's been one of those things that no one will even talk about openly yet. I couldn't even look at this thread until today, and I haven't even bothered to read the second page because I saw the gun control issue came up. All I can say on that issue is FOR FUCK'S SAKE THERE IS NO NEED FOR AUTOMATIC WEAPONRY IN THE GENERAL PUBLIC. Handguns, yes, and I will never argue that a responsible adult shouldn't be allowed to own one handgun for self-defense if they choose to have it. One of my roommates has a handgun locked up in her room in case of life-or-death emergencies, and I'm okay with that. She practiced shooting weekly for months before buying it. I trust her.

But yeah, nobody will talk about it for the most part. Schools have been literally silent. Some teachers have been trying to find ways to talk about what happened in an open and constructive way, but most are leaving it to be talked about with family. The malls have been pretty empty, although things picked up today. Even my bus hasn't been packed like usual, and most colleges ended finals today. Pretty much everyone knows someone, either directly or through a first connection, who lost a relative in that tragedy. Many businesses closed out of respect for those employees who lost someone.

Here, the world stopped on Friday, and is slowly beginning to turn again.

[ChobiChibi]

I agree with all the mental health stuff in this thread. But its not always people with aspergers or bipolar disorders or ADHD that have these violent outbursts.

My dad has depression. That's all, mentally, that he's been diagnosed with. Last time he had one of his little outbursts, he super glued the locks shut cos he thought the police were coming, put on a big leather coat to protect himself from tazers and sat there with a large kitchen knife in case the police got in. I wasn't there, but he told me what he did, and he seemed ashamed. But how are you supposed to force a 49 year old man into getting more help and stop drinking?

I mean, when you watch your dad pull a bookcase down the stairs when you were the one "taking too long" in the bathroom, how are you supposed to react? How are you supposed to tell him you're terrified of what he might do next?

If he had access to a gun... I don't know. He's never hurt us, just himself. More likely to have shot himself than us. But still, the doctors here are shit at dealing with mental health issues. They just throw more drugs at people. I honestly think he needs some time in some kind of mental health centre, or to deal with his drinking. But again, you can't force someone.

So yeah, I know how it feels when these people accuse parents or partners of not doing enough to prevent it. I'm just glad I don't live at home anymore.

[Blademaster]

Here, it's been one of those things that no one will even talk about openly yet.

You sure about that? I've seen more than a few comments from Connecticutians on random boards, forums, Twitter, etc. that are basically saying "It was tragic but I really wish that people would stop bringing it up already..."

[Magmar]

They're few and far between, Blade, but yeah. Even the other day when I was taking the bus, the driver stopped literally every time someone got off to say something along the lines of "I hope you have a wonderful Christmas with your family and that nothing ever tears you away from the ones you love, just think of those poor babies in Newtown and be thankful" just as an example.

I want to kill Mike Huckabee with words. Just saying. Yell at him until his head explodes. Something along the lines of "HOW DARE YOU."

[Blademaster]

Not to get off-topic, but what'd he say?

I don't follow televised news. Internet only. Is faster and doesn't usually wind up as poorly handled 24 hours later...

[Dark Sage]

He said, basically, that we deserved this, because we "took God out of the classroom".

Huckabee is a big idiot, and is so ultra-conservative, even other Republicans can't stand him.

[Heald]

All further posts on gun control laws in general in new thread please. Anything related to the original attack and further news stemming from it can stay in here, but please keep any debating about gun control and the NRA to the new thread. I will either move or delete posts that do not adhere to this depending on my mood and the quality of the post.