Maryland Abolishes the Death Penalty

[Dark Sage]

I have long felt that one of the greatest weakness the United States has a country that claims to be civilized is the fact that capital punishment is accepted let alone legal. I view it as a barbaric and uncivilized mockery of justice.

It is illegal in all of Europe, and even in Russia, a nation we constantly speak out against for human rights abuses. We are one a relatively few industrialized nations where it is still legal.

Today, a step forward has been taken, as Maryland becomes the 18th state (and first state south of the Mason-Dixie line) to abolish it.

To the Governor, Senate, House, and people of the Old Line State, congratulations.

Thirty-two to go.

[Roy Karrde]

Sucks for Maryland, but atleast we are still number one in Texas in terms of criminals roasted!

[Ultimate Charizard]

Sucks for Maryland, but atleast we are still number one in Texas in terms of criminals roasted!

Like many (but not all) of the 'Red' part of the USA i know and talk to, its only morally wrong if its something they dont do....

Congratulations to the rest of the civilized world.

[Dark Sage]

Sucks for Maryland, but atleast we are still number one in Texas in terms of criminals roasted!

Roy, I'd think a resident of Texas like yourself would know that the chair has been illegal in Texas for years.

In fact, in the few states where it is still legal, it's the secondary method, used only at the request of the condemned.

[Roy Karrde]

Roy, I'd think a resident of Texas like yourself would know that the chair has been illegal in Texas for years.

In fact, in the few states where it is still legal, it's the secondary method, used only at the request of the condemned.

"Roasting them/Frying them" is merely a catchall phrase for all executions down here.

[Dark Sage]

"Roasting them/Frying them" is merely a catchall phrase for all executions down here.

Roy, if you ever saw a man being executed by electrocution you'd think differently.

Witnesses to it tend to get sick. In fact, the first time someone claimed the chair was cruel and unusual punishment was the FIRST time it was used. A witness actually said that "an axe would have better".

You brag about your state's record-setting death row as if it's something to be proud of. People who do that turn my stomach. Ever stop to think that maybe it's because there's a high crime rate, a high murder rate, or lousy law enforcement in Texas, making it an unsafe place to live?

Seems the death penalty sure isn't a deterent where you live.

[CaptainJigglypuff]

The death penalty IS barbaric and many innocent people have died for things they NEVER did. On incident is the case of Todd Cameron Willingham who was put to death in 2004 even though he always maintained his innocence and no real proof that he started a fire that killed his three young daughters. His ex even said he was innocent at first and then changed her story for no real reason at all. In fact a study done WHILE willingham was alive showed it was electrical and evidence was with held during his trial. Another study after Texas killed him proved the fire was accidental. And to make matters worse, Gov. Rick Perry KNEw of the cover up and he let an innocent man die. Perry fired the chief investigator in the study while Willingham was on death row and put his own FRIEND in the position that was now vacant. And despite these studies, Perry will not nor will he EVER admit the error. I also heard that someone saw his "thing" and said it was tiny. I guess with the size of Gov. Perry's ego, his body has to compensate SOMEHOW!

[Roy Karrde]

The death penalty IS barbaric and many innocent people have died for things they NEVER did. On incident is the case of Todd Cameron Willingham who was put to death in 2004 even though he always maintained his innocence and no real proof that he started a fire that killed his three young daughters. His ex even said he was innocent at first and then changed her story for no real reason at all. In fact a study done WHILE willingham was alive showed it was electrical and evidence was with held during his trial. Another study after Texas killed him proved the fire was accidental. And to make matters worse, Gov. Rick Perry KNEw of the cover up and he let an innocent man die. Perry fired the chief investigator in the study while Willingham was on death row and put his own FRIEND in the position that was now vacant. And despite these studies, Perry will not nor will he EVER admit the error. I also heard that someone saw his "thing" and said it was tiny. I guess with the size of Gov. Perry's ego, his body has to compensate SOMEHOW!

Just curious if he was so innocent, why wasn't the ruling overturned in the numerous court challenges and appeals?

[Ultimate Charizard]

Just curious if he was so innocent, why wasn't the ruling overturned in the numerous court challenges and appeals?

You dont see the part where he said it was all covered up untill after the dude was dead? Thats the problem with Capitol punishment. You cant just wave it off and say "My Bad" when you get it wrong.

[Roy Karrde]

You dont see the part where he said it was all covered up untill after the dude was dead? Thats the problem with Capitol punishment. You cant just wave it off and say "My Bad" when you get it wrong.

I also saw this part as well: "In fact a study done WHILE willingham was alive showed it was electrical and evidence was with held during his trial."

If such a thing was so damning and the case of his innocence was so open and shut, why wasn't their a stay by the court on the numerous occasions that his case was appealed?

Mind you if I am reading the Huffington Post Correct, the study after the execution only confirmed the findings of the one before.

"Willingham was executed by lethal injection on Feb. 17, 2004. Yet the efforts to exonerate Willingham only intensified, and in 2005, the Texas Forensic Science Commission decided to re-examine the case. The commission hired a nationally known fire scientist, Craig Beyler, to evaluate the evidence, and in his report, he came down on the same side as the scientists who had evaluated the case prior to Willingham's execution: there was no credible scientific basis for the conclusion that arson had been committed."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/02/cameron-todd-willingham-execution-rick-perry_n_946654.html

[CaptainJigglypuff]

Then there's the case of Carlos Deluna who was executed for a murder that ANOTHER man named Carlos committed and many people kept hearing the GUILTY Carlos brag constantly how he killed a woman and got away with it. Even the witnesses to the murder told prosecutors they had the wrong man. And I'm not talking about five people saying this. I'm talking at least twenty. And then there were quite a few cases where a person goes missing without a trace and innocent people get convicted for a murder where NO motive was ever said, no struggle was found, AND no body or traces of blood were ever found. The innocent gets executed and the BAM! The missing suddenly turns up alive and well and moved away without telling anyone.

[Dark Sage]

Just curious if he was so innocent, why wasn't the ruling overturned in the numerous court challenges and appeals?

Why is ANY innocent man wrongfully executed?

Google the words "miscarriage of justice", and you're sure to find hundreds of cases where it happened.

By the way, ever read To Kill a Mockingbird? Well, sure, everyone who's taken high school English has.

[Roy Karrde]

Why is ANY innocent man wrongfully executed?

Google the words "miscarriage of justice", and you're sure to find hundreds of cases where it happened.

I am just curious with ALL these safe guards, ALL these appeals courts INCLUDING the Supreme Court of the U.S. none of them saw this evidence and believed it was enough to stop the execution? That suggests there is something more to it.

[Crystal Mew]

good. it is more expensive to put somebody on death row, and it is not a deterrent to crime anyway

[Drago]

This has something to do with democrats, right? I assume it has to do with democrats.

[Heald]

If the whole of the USA decides to ban the death penalty, will they also consider putting a halt on the extrajudicial murder of non US citizens in other countries by way of flying killbots?

[Dark Sage]

If the whole of the USA decides to ban the death penalty, will they also consider putting a halt on the extrajudicial murder of non US citizens in other countries by way of flying killbots?

Is sending American troops into the wilderness, where the Taliban have complete control, and letting them be slaughtered, a better idea?

I seem to remember that was why the bomb was used against Japan in WWII. Trueman realized that the alternative, an invasion of Japan, would have caused thousands of American casualities, and while they would have won the war, it would have been a pyrric victory in every sense of the term. The bomb was the lesser of the two evils.

You people should think of that before you say such things.

[Heald]

Actually I'm referring to the USA's policy of sending unmanned drones to assassinate targets of interest based on intelligence without that person ever receiving any kind of hearing, and usually with dozens of civilians or non military persons being caught in the crossfire.

Maybe you should think before posting.

[Mikachu Yukitatsu]

Trueman realized that the alternative, an invasion of Japan, would have caused thousands of American casualities, and while they would have won the war, it would have been a pyrric victory in every sense of the term. The bomb was the lesser of the two evils.

Also, when Truman was in office, they didn't know about the killer radiation and other 'side effects'. If I have understood correctly, Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings were much more effective in terms of casualties and injuries that they thought. Political influences, on the other hand, were expected.

More on topic, yes, I'm so hard trying to stay on topic, this century we have witnessed acts such as 9/11 and Breivik's massive killing spree in Oslo, 2011 and those events give another viewpoint on how people are or should be judged. I'm not saying I support capital punishment but somehow this isn't the easiest question to ask.

[RedStarWarrior]

First off, I'm pro-DP.

The judicial system lets guilty people go (often on technicalities) more than it executes innocents.

It is MORE expensive to take care of a prisoner for life.

Heald, we will also kill citizens with drone strikes on foreign soil (and have done it). If you betray your country then you deserve it.

I find it a little hypocritical for you to be anti-capital punishment, but for the use of UAVs against foreign nationals, Dark Sage. You realize that collateral damage is all but guaranteed, but you'd rather a sinful person live because they are a citizen of the United States? If anything, they should be held to a higher standard.

[Heald]

Heald, we will also kill citizens with drone strikes on foreign soil (and have done it). If you betray your country then you deserve it.
Granted, I'm not against the death penalty, I was merely playing devil's advocate that if you're going to ban the judicial murder of people on US soil, then it should follow that the extrajudicial murder of people on non-US soil should also be banned.

[Dark Sage]

I find it a little hypocritical for you to be anti-capital punishment, but for the use of UAVs against foreign nationals, Dark Sage. You realize that collateral damage is all but guaranteed, but you'd rather a sinful person live because they are a citizen of the United States? If anything, they should be held to a higher standard.

"It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

This phrase is called Blackstone's Formulation, and it is expressed by the English jurist William Blackstone in his seminal work, Commentaries on the Laws of England, published in the 1760s.

However, the general idea behind that phrase dates back long before him.

On October 3rd, 1692, while decrying the Salem witch trials, Increase Mather wrote, "It were better that Ten Suspected Witches should escape, than that the Innocent Person should be Condemned."

More than two centuries earlier, Sir John Fortescue's De Laudibus Legum Angliae (c. 1470) states that "one would much rather that twenty guilty persons should escape the punishment of death, than that one innocent person should be condemned and suffer capitally."

And more than two thousand years previous, this was written:

Abraham drew near, and said, "Will you consume the righteous with the wicked? What if there are fifty righteous within the city? Will you consume and not spare the place for the fifty righteous who are in it?... What if ten are found there?" He [The Lord] said, "I will not destroy it for the ten's sake". - Genesis 18:23-32

THAT, is why I oppose the death penalty. An innocent man being executed for a crime he did not commit is an abomination that is worse that ANY number of guilty men being freed.

But some people, who seem to have no regard for human life, think otherwise. They tell us things about "acceptable loses" and "the end justifying the means".

I think that's a crock.

Edit: I should probably add a write-on to this. Blakstone's Formulation was quoted and used by many notable people in history.

Benjamin Franklin multiplied by ten, saying "it is better 100 guilty Persons should escape than that one innocent Person should suffer."

John Adams, when acting as defense attorney for the British soldiers involved in the Boston Massacre, expanded on the phrase:


It is more important that innocence should be protected, than it is, that guilt be punished; for guilt and crimes are so frequent in this world, that all of them cannot be punished.... when innocence itself, is brought to the bar and condemned, especially to die, the subject will exclaim, 'it is immaterial to me whether I behave well or ill, for virtue itself is no security.' And if such a sentiment as this were to take hold in the mind of the subject that would be the end of all security whatsoever.

[Roy Karrde]

THAT, is why I oppose the death penalty. An innocent man being executed for a crime he did not commit is an abomination that is worse that ANY number of guilty men being freed.

But some people, who seem to have no regard for human life, think otherwise. They tell us things about "acceptable loses" and "the end justifying the means".

I think that's a crock.

Except there is no need for "acceptable loses" as we begin to have greater and greater forensic information and as cameras become more widespread as we saw in the Boston Bombing, the amount of evidence available to prove one's guilt becomes greater and greater.

[Dark Sage]

Uh, Roy, those two guys told their carjacking victim that they were the ones who had set off the bombs.

I don't think forensic evidence is needed her. The case against them could not be stronger.

And as for forensic evidence... Not that the death penalty is an issue in the Amanda Knox case, but the forensic evidence proving that Guede was the killer was obvious, while that pointing to Knox and her boyfriend was nonexistant. I don't need to tell you about the debacle it has become, despite that.

I again ask you to Google "miscarriage of justice". The number of times an innocent man has been executed may well surprise you when you do.

[Blademaster]

If the whole of the USA decides to ban the death penalty, will they also consider putting a halt on the extrajudicial murder of non US citizens in other countries by way of flying killbots?

NOPE. GOTTA BRING FREEDOM TO THE PEOPLE OF HERPIDERPISTAN.


Is sending American troops into the wilderness, where the Taliban have complete control, and letting them be slaughtered, a better idea?

No, you know what the better idea is?

Not being in the shitty exploding desert wilderness in the first place.

[Dark Sage]

Once again, Blade just HAS to be a wise-guy.

[Jeff]

I feel the need to weigh in on this as TPM's resident Marylander, but I really don't have strong feelings either way on this issue. I understand that old saying that the punishment should fit the crime, but at the same time realize that the potential to execute an innocent (no matter how fleetingly small due to the ridiculous appeal process) is always an issue. So when I first heard that my home state got rid of the death penalty, it was just kinda meh. The main thing I've actually cared about in this session has been the numerous taxes that have been proposed due to Governor O'Malley's insane level of spending. But that's another topic.

[RedStarWarrior]

Many innocent people were executed in the past, but nowadays it takes an insurmountable mountain of evidence to land someone on death row.

Also, in the world we live in, it's better that one innocent person dies if it keeps ten guilty people off of the street. The benefit of the many outweighs the few. After all, we did let Osama bin Laden go originally. The power of one person can be huge in this day, let alone ten fuckheads.

I'd rather kill those that decide to kill others.

[Dark Sage]

Many innocent people were executed in the past, but nowadays it takes an insurmountable mountain of evidence to land someone on death row.

Also, in the world we live in, it's better that one innocent person dies if it keeps ten guilty people off of the street. The benefit of the many outweighs the few. After all, we did let Osama bin Laden go originally. The power of one person can be huge in this day, let alone ten fuckheads.

I'd rather kill those that decide to kill others.

You'd change your mind in a heartbeat if the innocent person it happened to was your brother, or father...

...or son.

This is not a country where we consider an innocent human life expendable, buster. This is America. You want a place that does that, move to Iran.

[Drago]

http://t.qkme.me/3runcd.jpg

[Dark Sage]

Tough words spoken by someone who lives in a place that is still symbolcally considered under the rule of the British monarchy. (Which actually has no authority in governing Austrailia at all.)

You think executing an innocent man is worth keeping ten guilty men off the streets? Move to North Korea. They welcome that way of thinking.

Of course, they tend to send people to prison for crimes that aren't really crimes, have the worst economy in the world, and most people there have no electricity or running water, but the you'll like the justice system, at least.

[Drago]

Tough words? There's only one word in that image, bro. Evidently counting isn't your strong suit. There's that American education system coming into play.

LOL :wave:

[Blademaster]

This is not a country where we consider an innocent human life expendable, buster.

Only the guilty ones.

[CaptainJigglypuff]

In high school, some scientists talked to my bio class about forensic science and I said that I honestly believe that it isn't 100% accurate at all and asked how do they know that at a crime scene, someone planted evidence to frame someone else. The guys never answered my question and for the rest of the year, my classmates called me "stupid" for asking a question with a good point. Even my teacher disliked me because I asked this and it was only two and a half months into the school year. That is the science that puts away so many innocent people in jail and possibly on death row. Just because a person has an argument that is seen in public and the other person ends up being killed does not mean the OTHER person killed them. And yet many are convicted over such weak evidence such as this. I mean Georgia KILLED Troy Davis who most of the witnesses even said never killed the guy he was executed for. They even said another man bragged about committing the murder and even showing off the gun used in the murder. Those same witnesseseven said this DURING the trial! Things like this is why a part of me is literally dead. I probably will NEVER have faith again in the justice system unless one specific person who shall remain nameless is arrested and put in jail for the murder she committed and the police release the innocent man from death row that the murderess sent there in the first place.

[Dark Sage]

I apologize, DragoKnight, I guess I shoudn't have said such thing.

After all... Americans have made some rather dumb and stereotypical jokes about Australia, saying that its citizens are tough because they're the "decendants of inmates of a penal colony"...

Of course, you'd think that such a country would just love a good hanging now and then, but they don't. Despite the ugly nature of Australia's founding, the death penalty THERE is illegal too, having been comletely abolished in 1984 and not used since 1967!

I swear...

Edit: And by the way, for once, Blade makes a good point.

[RedStarWarrior]

You'd change your mind in a heartbeat if the innocent person it happened to was your brother, or father...

...or son.

This is not a country where we consider an innocent human life expendable, buster. This is America. You want a place that does that, move to Iran.

Actually, no. I'd be upset, but if it saved many lives, I'd be grateful. It's all about hindsight, though.

[Dark Sage]

Actually, no. I'd be upset, but if it saved many lives, I'd be grateful. It's all about hindsight, though.

To quote many people on the old Get Smart show, "I find that hard to believe."

[RedStarWarrior]

Some Americans proliferate stereotypes of other countries. The same can be true for anyone anywhere. The word 'American' is replaceable with any noun that describes any group of people because humanity as a whole tries to find patterns in things to help our understanding of the world.

To be honest, most of the jokes I hear about Australia involve linguistic or pronounciation differences. The only penal colony ones are something along the line of Australians being wimps despite 'descending from criminals'.

In regards to the PRoK, your trying to draw a comparison which is flawed just for the sake of trying to make my opinion appear radical. The government there doesn't believe in right and wrong in the same sense. I'm referring to almost universal ideas of correct behavior towards other humans.

Back to my actual statement, I'm referring to the fact that innocent people will get wrongfully accused in ANY judicial system. Nowadays, it is extremely rare for someone to be executed when they were innocent. In fact, there are only 39 people in the US that are thought to have been innocent (with as few as 8 having substantial enough evidence to support the claim). The majority of those placed on death row that didn't belong there are released as DNA evidence has become a prevalent tool. By the way, the correct term is 'wrongful execution'. Miscarriage of justice refers to a broader classification of wrongful convictions in general.

Anyway, I understand that you feel strongly about the death penalty, but other people are allowed to have opinions that differ. This doesn't make them wrong as it is an opinion.

[RedStarWarrior]

To quote many people on the old Get Smart show, "I find that hard to believe."

Your inability to understand differing viewpoints is your problem, not mine.

[Dark Sage]

Come, of RS, national stereotypes are nothing new.

In fact, staying on the issue of Australia, even they've made light of a few of them. Remember those Foster's Beer commercials that started by saying "How to speak Australian"? Foster's is a company that is based there. (And ironically, they make most of there profits by exporting it, mostly to Britain; the brand isn't very popular in Australia itself.)

Heck, Canada is America's closest neighbor and our biggest trade partner, and we have lots of sterotypes about them, like how everyone has either a French or Scottish last name (actually, quite a few have Irish, English, or even Welsh names), how they have an obsession with macaronni and cheese, Tim Hortons, donuts, and poutine, and that their technology is always behind ours. (They always forget about Alexander Graham Bell, ATI, and Canadarm.) I'm not even going to get into how much the Royal Canadian Mounted Police tends to be mocked in the media.

Everyone is a little guilty of enforcing stereotypes, RS. We wouldn't have them in a perfect world...

But we wouldn't have the death penalty either in a perfect world. In fact, we wouldn't have crime.

[RedStarWarrior]

Actually, most Canadians have French, English, or native last names. Never heard the Scottish thing...

I think we typically make fun of them for being too polite. Also, the US has Tim Horton's as well, but I think we look more at that with envy than as a source of comedy.

Yes, perfect doesn't exist. The good thing is that we're free to have such different opinions.

PS - use RSW. ;)

[CaptainJigglypuff]

Come, of RS, national stereotypes are nothing new.

In fact, staying on the issue of Australia, even they've made light of a few of them. Remember those Foster's Beer commercials that started by saying "How to speak Australian"? Foster's is a company that is based there. (And ironically, they make most of there profits by exporting it, mostly to Britain; the brand isn't very popular in Australia itself.)

Heck, Canada is America's closest neighbor and our biggest trade partner, and we have lots of sterotypes about them, like how everyone has either a French or Scottish last name (actually, quite a few have Irish, English, or even Welsh names), how they have an obsession with macaronni and cheese, Tim Hortons, donuts, and poutine, and that their technology is always behind ours. (They always forget about Alexander Graham Bell, ATI, and Canadarm.) I'm not even going to get into how much the Royal Canadian Mounted Police tends to be mocked in the media.

Everyone is a little guilty of enforcing stereotypes, RS. We wouldn't have them in a perfect world...

But we wouldn't have the death penalty either in a perfect world. In fact, we wouldn't have crime.

As the Avenue Q song says, "Everyone's a Little Bit Racist." I also remember reading a kids book when I was younger that stated Australia's penal colony past. The picture they used to represent the Australian Independence Day had a koala and kangaroo in an old fashioned black and white striped prision uniform and a ball chain around the ankle. Even as a kid I thought it seemed a bit odd.

[Dark Sage]

Yeah. That kind of reminds me of an exchange in a Thunderbolts story:



Crossbones: Fine with me. I'll burn out more of these Jap zombies.

Moonstone: That's right— you don't talk much so I forget you're a crazy racist.

Crossbones: Everyone is. I'm just honest about it.


Of course, seeing as Crossbones is a lunatic and a killer who works for the Red Skull (a villain that's not only a Nazi but a guy who even other Nazis consider a monster) it's hard to take anything he says at face value.