Illegal Immigration

[Zak]

So, serious question... what's everyone's stance on illegal immigration?


Thought it might be interesting because I do remember a thread about it on this very forum years and years ago (probably still buried somewhere if not pruned). The general consensus seemed to be that it's problematic and that illegal immigrants have absolutely no right to be here (or wherever they are) or any excuse for it.

Except it would seem ever since Trump made his infamous 'statement', it would would appear that it's a cool thing to defend them now. Not only that, but apparently any criticism of them (even though they are breaking the law and mooching) seems to create a stigma that gets them labeled 'hateful' or a 'bigot'. Except... the word bigot seems to have been really redefined in the last couple years on a lot of fronts, but that's a whole other discussion.

Why does criticism (or even slamming) of illegal immigration make someone a bigot or a 'white supremacist'? It's not like it's stereotyping an entire race or nationality, just addressing a certain handful of them who are in the wrong. Is it so bad to want a more secure screening process on the Mexico border especially considering all the shit that goes down near there?

Perhaps a "wall" is a bit extreme, surely there are many other borders where you don't see that happening as much, thanks to security actually doing it's job, one could argue that they're equally capable over there. Either way, wall or not, doesn't change the fact that it's an issue.

[Blademaster]

I was fine with it until I started seeing everything that's written anywhere in public is in both English and Spanish.


But Blade they've been doing that for decades you gringo bastard.

Yeah but now they're putting the Spanish stuff FIRST!

[Drago]

But Blade they've been doing that for decades you gringo bastard.

[Magmar]

I'm all for immigration. I'd prefer it were done legally in order to streamline social services but I can understand the desperation one must feel if they felt they had no other choice but to sneak into another country for a shot at a better life.

[Zak]

I can understand the desperation one must feel if they felt they had no other choice but to sneak into another country for a shot at a better life.

Maybe, but that doesn't mean they'd be in any position to complain if they get caught/deported. They knew what they were getting themselves into. Same reason they can't really pretend it's irrational that a candidate for the leader of the country they're trying to illegally mooch off of (who actually has a solid chance of winning) happens to be against it and wanting to crack down on it. Sure, they can be upset about it, I wouldn't blame them if they specifically feel threatened. They just can't pretend it's wrong.

I don't deny I would be terrified if there was a candidate who was a strong backer of SOPA/PIPA.

[Lady Vulpix]

Whenever people leave their home country it's because their situation there has become so bad that they can no longer stay. I think it should be easier for people to immigrate legally, then immigrants would be able to settle down and become productive members of the new society they're now a part of. If they commit any crimes, then yes, I think they should be deported. But if they work and contribute to the community, why not accept them? Remember we all descend from immigrants who suffered greatly when they had to leave their homes, and worked hard to build the lives that ultimately allowed us to exist.

[Magmar]

I sort of see your points Zak. Yes, violent criminals who are not registered as residents of the country in which they are committing those crimes should be removed, but also keep in mind, many types of criminals who are not citizens of the country in which they are committing crimes get sent back to their nation of origin, even if they have registered through the legal channels and obtained temporary citizenship (i.e., work visa, green card, university, or even traveling for a visit).

It's not like there is no room for any more people in the U.S. The vast majority of the country is open space.

[SupremeChampion]

what makes illegal immigration (for my main talking points, I'll have to refer to America since that's where I live) hard to contain is the border between Mexico and the US is so big, it's almost impossible to man completely to look for people who are crossing illegally. Even still, if it were properly manned and staffed it's still hard to look for people due to the extensive work they put into getting around the boarder. Tunnels are not uncommon, and are well thought out. I believe (if memory serves), there was one such tunnel that ran to a small town, through the sewers where people would come up from. The tunnels (among other ways to cross), are all over, and when one is filled or stopped another one opens up.

Another tricky part is that even when people who are here illegally are caught and deported, they know nothing really big comes from it in their home country and they'll just be back again eventually. If they're caught again, they'll be sent home and the cycle repeats. Granted, coming across the boarder illegally isn't as bad a crime as murder, but w/ no real repercussion other then getting sent home, well other than the hassle of coming back to America (or whichever country), there really is no long term downside.

Also, at least here in America, I've heard of a lot of women who are here illegally come across the boarder to have their children. Anyone born in America is automatically an American (same if you had at least one American parent, no matter where you were born in the world). They'll have their children here, making them American, and wind up staying because I mean really who's going to want to separate a mother from her child?

Finally, more to your point Zak, the word "bigot" and "racist" has changing over the years. They're still awful things to be, don't get me wrong, but now it does indeed seem like whenever you disagree w/ a point made by a minority group or say something against a minority group, you are automatically "racist" and "bigoted" even though that's not the case. People automatically assume if you're against illegal immigration than yes you must be "racist", because why don't you want people to have a better life? It's almost like it's the easiest thing to do when someone disagrees is to call them racist or bigot or white supremacist. You label someone something like that, and even if it's not true they'll automatically look like the bad guy. And when you get a group of people with a mob mind mentality, one voice trying to have a rational argument will drown in a sea of anger, fear and hatred.

To be honest, I believe everyone deserves a shot at a better life. Like LV said, 99% of the people in America are immigrants (except native Americans, they were here first haha). But when my great grandparents came over from Italy, they did it the right way. They went through Ellis Island in NY (I believe, might have been a different port lol) and started their life in America. Was it hard? Of course. They needed to learn English to survive here, nothing was sold in multiple languages. They had to find jobs, and hopefully not be taken advantage of because they were from a different country. But I like to think they laid the foundation that's lead to a good life for my family here today. I say that to say this: I think we should make it easier to get people into this country legally. We should make it simpler, and try to encourage those who want to be here to do it the right way. Should the bad ones be sent back and kept better track of to make sure they don't come back? Of course. Should the ones here who are here illegally be sent back? Of course. Does that make someone who agrees with those points a racist, bigoted white supremacist? Absolutely not. A person can be compassionate and sensitive to the needs and suffering of others, but they aren't horrible people for thinking that the rules should be followed. In the end, if they are, it would benefit society and humanity as whole.

At least that's how I see it. Hope I broke up my soliloquy enough so people could read it w/o getting a headache lol.

SC

[Zak]

what makes illegal immigration (for my main talking points, I'll have to refer to America since that's where I live) hard to contain is the border between Mexico and the US is so big, it's almost impossible to man completely to look for people who are crossing illegally. Even still, if it were properly manned and staffed it's still hard to look for people due to the extensive work they put into getting around the boarder. Tunnels are not uncommon, and are well thought out. I believe (if memory serves), there was one such tunnel that ran to a small town, through the sewers where people would come up from. The tunnels (among other ways to cross), are all over, and when one is filled or stopped another one opens up.


You do realize that this supports the point that a wall is the answer, right?


Another tricky part is that even when people who are here illegally are caught and deported, they know nothing really big comes from it in their home country and they'll just be back again eventually. If they're caught again, they'll be sent home and the cycle repeats. Granted, coming across the boarder illegally isn't as bad a crime as murder, but w/ no real repercussion other then getting sent home, well other than the hassle of coming back to America (or whichever country), there really is no long term downside.

Yeah, and if they commit a murder while they're here, they don't go to jail, they just get sent back, still on the streets in their country and free to weasel their way back in as you said. If anything it'd be doing them a favor.


Finally, more to your point Zak, the word "bigot" and "racist" has changing over the years. They're still awful things to be, don't get me wrong, but now it does indeed seem like whenever you disagree w/ a point made by a minority group or say something against a minority group, you are automatically "racist" and "bigoted" even though that's not the case. People automatically assume if you're against illegal immigration than yes you must be "racist", because why don't you want people to have a better life? It's almost like it's the easiest thing to do when someone disagrees is to call them racist or bigot or white supremacist. You label someone something like that, and even if it's not true they'll automatically look like the bad guy. And when you get a group of people with a mob mind mentality, one voice trying to have a rational argument will drown in a sea of anger, fear and hatred.

Everyone deserves a better life, but why can't they go the legal route? The same can be said for murder, like if someone was being blackmailed with something that would put their life (like their marriage or their career) in jeopardy and they murdered the person blackmailing them, then sure, they'd have a "better life". One could rob a bank and give themselves a "better life" by having money. I don't really see how that's an excuse...

[Lady Vulpix]

Everyone deserves a better life, but why can't they go the legal route?
Don't you think they're trying? Immigrating to the USA legally is about as hard as winning the lottery. In fact, I heard there was an actual lottery for that.

[SupremeChampion]

I do know the answer supports to the wall, but you'd have to build it down, as well as up. If they are able to tunnel to a town, I don't think a wall would be able to slow them down. There really is no perfect answer, because I believe people who want to cross the boarders illegally will always find an illegal way to do it. A wall may help, but given enough time I think another way around will become available.

Well I believe if they commit murder, they would be sent to an American prison. I was more talking along the lines if they stopped during a traffic stop, or buying drugs, or during an immigration sting.

I think you may have missed my point in the last part. I was only commenting that people who disagree with the mob mentality are often mis-labeled something they weren't. I agree the legal route would and should be taken. The problem with murdering someone who is extorting you or robbing a bank is that now you've committed a crime, no matter how noble the intentions. You'll still go to jail for murder pending your trial, where you leave your fate in the hands of a jury. And robbing a bank usually comes with a sentence of 10-15 years. Plus the amount you'd get really isn't worth it, because unless you catch a teller with a large amount of cash in his or her draw, the amount of time it would take for the teller to get any decent amount of money would be too long. Bank robberies are meant to be in and out sort of jobs, you take too long the police come and the a bank robber gets hostages and it never ends well for the robber. But like LV said, it's incredibly hard to get in. So, if you're desperate to find a better life, to try and make some money for your family and send it back home, then the more attractive option would be to come across illegally. Once in, you keep your head down, work hard, and try not to stick out. Because if you stick out, you get caught and sent back (barring you haven't done something egregious). While I think they should try for the legal route, it's easy for me to say that since I'm already here. Someone who's desperate to get in, the choice may not be as easy.

SC