Is the show too much of a commercial for the game?

[Bacl]

Maybe I'm just too depressed about so many main character Pokemon getting dumped so that R/S Pokemon can join the team, but I'm starting to wonder if the anime is servicing the game a little too much.

I know that from the very start all aspects of Pokemon tried to go hand in hand, in a lot of ways the show was an ad for the game and the game an ad for the show. That equaled a cash crop of titanic proportions (well because of that and the fact Pokemon is so great).

Anyway, here we are entering a new "generation" of Pokemon, and maybe the old rules should not apply so much. Do you think that making all the Hoen region Pokemon dissapear so that all we see on Pokemon are the new R/S ones will really cause game sales to skyrocket? Or maybe anime rating to fall?

Yes, the new Pokemon represent new storylines and we definetly need to see a shift towards them. But in the case of Pokemon that the main characters had on their team, well, these Pokemon were kind of main characters too. I think they deserve immunity from exhile.

I also find it interesting that with all the different opinions people have, whenever I hear someone talk about the virtues of the Orange Islands they almost always give the same reason: Because it was a departure from the game.

Food for thought. Thought from food.

[Pewter City Geodude]

I think the show takes battles as they are in the games to the next level and makes them much more realistic. Only in the show (not counting the HMs) do you see trainers have Pokemon use attacks for things other than battling. In the show, an Electric attack can damage a Rock or Ground type that is wet, which is realistic. A trainer in the show has to consider a whole new world of strategy in battling, as opposed to the system of (basically) trading blows in the game. There are physical things in the environment/battle arena to take into account, possibilities of the Pokemon using those things to their advantage, having a less accurate gauge of how much energy your Pokemon has left for its attacks (a trainer in the anime doesn't know anything about PP, he just has to judge based on how his Pokemon is doing). As for using the battlefield to the trainer's advantage, see Ash's battle with Whitney. That's something you can't do in the games.

So basically I like the anime for the added realism of the battles. Sure there are some mistakes, and sometimes I think the writers are a bunch of idiots, but I think the good points of the anime far outweigh the bad.

[ILikePokemonP]

Originally posted by Bacl

Food for thought. Thought from food. Lol

I guess in some ways the show advertises the games too much. Example: Ash has had pikachu, bulbasaur, squirtle, charmander, chikorita, totodile and cyndaquil and these are all starters for the games up to Crystal. I don't know if in AG Ash will have treecko etc. but I hope he has some different pokemon. The fact that his pokemon get "recycled" doesn't appeal to me.

The battles are a great part of the anime because we get to see what would happen depending on weather, surrounding area, pokemon's condition (in the games you can perform an attack just as well at full hp than 1 hp from minimum) and lots of other factors. There's more options obviously in the anime and they are being used to good effect.

Cut out the stupid mistakes of the dubbers and you have a very good show that is more than a money making scheme.

[Hanada Tattsu]

Well, the show and the games are very different, 'tis has been stressed quite enough. However, the anime is much better because as Geodude said, there is the added treat of realism.

The R/G/B/Y Versions of the game were very similar to the show. The starters were the same, locations, trainers, and even the first two gym leaders had the same Pokemon they had in the game.

The G/S/C Versions were also very similar to the show. The starters were likewise the same, but trainer locations were different as well as the Pokemon the gym leader had. For example, Falkner had a Hoot Hoot, a Dodrio and a Pidgeot in the anime, something that he would never have had that early in the game.

R/S is the same. Many of the people you meet in the game is in the same, such as how Brock got Lotad; he went to the flower shop near Rustboro.

[BenRG]

I don't know if Hanada Tattsu intended this, but I think she proved Bacl's point. Ever since about mid-way through Master Quest, the animé has become more and more based on events in the games (like the Red Gyarados). In Advance Generation, this has become a policy on the part of the producers. Whole chunks of plot have been cut-and-pasted from the games into the animé. It is now very closely based on the in-game story.

I'm not sure myself whether this is a good or a bad thing. After all, many of the 'original' stories in Johto Journeys and Johto League Champions were practically cookie-cutter fillers from end to end. At least now the show has some decent stories. On the flip side, however, the animé used to have its' own unique character issues, continuity and long-term plot. This has all been set aside in order to advertise the games. Furthermore, I think that this policy may go all the way back as far as the beginning of Season 3 and how they included the GSC starters into Ash's team. It was the focus on introducing the new Pokémon, IMHO, that led to the stagnation of the show during the early Johto saga.

So, in conclusion, the answer to Bacl's question is this: Yes, the animé has turned into one long commercial for the games. Ironically, however, adopting the in-game plot might have saved it from cancellation, given the massive fall in quality of the original stories during the early part of the Johto saga.

[Pewter City Geodude]

Originally posted by BenRG
On the flip side, however, the animé used to have its' own unique character issues, continuity and long-term plot. This has all been set aside in order to advertise the games.

Not all of it. There's the new "character issues" of Brock radically switching training interests (Water instead of Rock) and seeing how that's gonna pan out, and May's insecurity when it comes to training.

[Bacl]

Originally posted by Pewter City Geodude
There's the new "character issues" of Brock radically switching training interests (Water instead of Rock)

Yeah but this can actually be labeled as an example of the show catering to advertising the game. Ask yourself why they are doing this. Is it really to "mix things up" and add new dimension to the character of Brock?

Or is it because they want each of the three main characters to have one of the starters, and so this idea of him being a water trainer works well for him getting Mudkip. So basically, because they felt obligated to have the RS water starter on someones team, they fundamentally change a beloved main character, and also make him abandon all except one of his Pokemon. And I wouldn't be surprised if that last one went away soon. It ain't water, and it ain't RS so it's days are probobly numbered.

[Pewter City Geodude]

I don't think so. They've encountered some non-R/S Pokemon already (wild Weedle, etc). And heck, you can't catch Meowth in R/S either, but he's not going anywhere.

OK I'm done chewing holes in your theory now. :P

[BenRG]

Originally posted by Pewter City Geodude
I don't think so. They've encountered some non-R/S Pokemon already (wild Weedle, etc). And heck, you can't catch Meowth in R/S either, but he's not going anywhere. Two problems with that:[list=1] Wild Pokémon don't matter. What matters is Pokémon that the main characters own and train
Meowth of Team Rocket isn't a Pokémon, he's a main character, as odd as that sounds. He doesn't have a Pokéball and doesn't take orders from humans (except when Jessie threatens him)[/list=1]We will only see the characters training Pikachu and Ru/Sa-version Pokémon, IMHO.

[Pewter City Geodude]

Yeah, but in order to own and train Pokemon, they have to first be caught. :P Realistically, there'd be nothing stopping them from catching/training (nothing besides the writers that is) a non-R/S Pokemon. Besides, they all are in R/S anyway, it's just that some can't be caught.

[Bacl]

Originally posted by Pewter City Geodude
Realistically, there'd be nothing stopping them from catching/training (nothing besides the writers that is) a non-R/S Pokemon.

Yes, and that is the point exactly. The writers are stopping them. Not only from catching non-RS Pokemon, but from keeping the ones they already have. Why are the writers stopping them from doing this? Because of the new game. Is this hindering the anime? I think it is.

When GS came out several old Pokemon moved on to allow spots on trainers teams for GS Pokemon. Charizard went away, and soon Squirtle did too. Likitung got traded for Wobbuffett, and Zubat quickly evolved twice to become Crobat.

But the start of AG sees everyone "depositing" ALL except one of their Pokemon and then quickly catching a replacment team of RS pokemon. Even Team Rocket is subject to this rule. This is massive, show-altering stuff. It would be one thing if two or three of Ash's Pokemon moved on, but to completely abandon every single one except Pikachu? For no reason other then to promote the gameboy games that have already been out for months (and by the time Ag starts showing in the US, half a year or more)? I think that this is sacrificing the greatness of the anime by compromising the writing.

[Rei_Zero]

But who says they aren't taking a bite more than their share? Sure, depositing all pokemon means getting a new main team to advertise, but it is also giving Ash room to develope more, and try new things. This means the producers advertises and let Ash and co. grow in character. This is furthered by the fact that May and Brock each get a starter, because they can develope May and Brock while advertising new pokemon. This also has to do with the plot. They advertise the plot of RS and still make a story out of it where the characters have time to learn and grow. Making Hoenn a new continent adds to this even more, as a lot of Ash heard before in Kanto and Johto are largely unknown to him, and maybe even Brock, yet still advertise the game.

[Pewter City Geodude]

Originally posted by Bacl
It would be one thing if two or three of Ash's Pokemon moved on, but to completely abandon every single one except Pikachu?

Don't exaggerate. They weren't abandoned, simply deposited at Oak's. He still has access to them whenever he wants, just like his other reserves. He just wanted to leave them there to start off on a level playing field with Gary. Figured if Gary could do it, he could do it. And I agree completely with Rei_Zero's post.

[Hanada Tattsu]

Pikachu, Meowth, and Wobuffet will never leave. Those two are trademark Pokemon. They will never leave no matter what, they will never evolve either. Now, let's take a look at the remaining G/R/B/Y/G/S/C Pokes.

Forretress will leave no matter what. I think that he's good as gone, from what I've seen Brocko hasn't used it, he's used Lotad and Mudkip mostly, so why not?

[BenRG]

Originally posted by Pewter City Geodude
Don't exaggerate. They weren't abandoned, simply deposited at Oak's. He still has access to them whenever he wants, just like his other reserves. He just wanted to leave them there to start off on a level playing field with Gary. That's an excuse, Geodude, and you know it. No matter what was said in the show, The GSC and RBY Pokémon have been written out to make way for the newer models. There is no other way of describing it. It is as if a major show like 'Star Trek' changed its' entire main cast (apart from two or three major characters) every two or three seasons.

You and I know that, apart from the occasional cameo, we are never going to see those Pokémon again. It is a shame and it betrays the fans who have got attached to certain Pokémon. :mad:

[Barbara LeMaster]

Story driven animés and television shows can deal with character loss. Witness the unparalleled success of the Law & Order franchise and its character changes. However, Pokémon has relied once too often on filler episodes that serve only to showcase a particular Pokémon. If the writers had a deeper storyline with more character development, then Houenn might be a good change. As it is, I doubt that new fans will be attracted to Pokémon and the older fans are growing more and more alienated.

[Pewter City Geodude]

Originally posted by BenRG
That's an excuse, Geodude, and you know it. No matter what was said in the show, The GSC and RBY Pokémon have been written out to make way for the newer models. There is no other way of describing it. It is as if a major show like 'Star Trek' changed its' entire main cast (apart from two or three major characters) every two or three seasons.

You and I know that, apart from the occasional cameo, we are never going to see those Pokémon again. It is a shame and it betrays the fans who have got attached to certain Pokémon. :mad:

Then again, as an example, I keep thinking about later on when the group finally gets to Mauville and Ash has to battle Wattson. Up until then in the games, the only Ground type you can catch is Geodude (Nincada doesn't count since it loses the Ground type when it evolves), and since I can't see Ash ever catching a Geodude, I wouldn't be surprised if he contacted Oak and took out Ground-type Phanpy to battle Wattson, especially since Phanpy *is* catchable in R/S, unlike most of his Johto team. Then again, he might just rely on Pikachu and Treecko (or Grovyle if it evolved by then) for that battle, you never know.

[Bacl]

Originally posted by Pewter City Geodude
Then again, as an example, I keep thinking about later on when the group finally gets to Mauville and Ash has to battle Wattson. Up until then in the games, the only Ground type you can catch is Geodude (Nincada doesn't count since it loses the Ground type when it evolves), and since I can't see Ash ever catching a Geodude, I wouldn't be surprised if he contacted Oak and took out Ground-type Phanpy to battle Wattson, especially since Phanpy *is* catchable in R/S, unlike most of his Johto team. Then again, he might just rely on Pikachu and Treecko (or Grovyle if it evolved by then) for that battle, you never know.

I think we are arguing different things here. It sounds like what you're saying is that it is still possible for Ash to withdraw his Pokemon from the lab, and that we've seen indications that non-RS Pokemon will be in the background and possibly briefly featured in fluff-of-the-week episodes. And also that the "possibility" exists for them to catch non-RS pokemon. Am I right so far?

What I'm saying is that while that may indeed may be true, the show has still undergone these dramatic changes because of the game. And that although the game has served a s atemplate for the show in the past, this time it has so fundamentally changed things that it is going to hurt the show and probobly not help the game any.

Yes, non-RS Pokemon will still be seen.

Yes, Ash still "technically" has all his old Pokemon.

Yes, we may see one or two episodes that feature a one day return of Charizard or Phanpy.

But don't count on ever seeing Wheezing, Muk or Onix again. Ever. Can you say Primeape? Ash can't.

And don't expect the fact that nearly everyone now has all RS-pokemon teams to suddenly boost RS sales to the heights of yester-year.

And while the concept of "a fresh new cast of characters" does hold with it the possiblity of exciting new storylines, interesting adventures, and an all around "shot in the arm" don't forget that what it really comes down to is the writing. How many other shows have flushed half their cast down the toilet in the hopes of bringing on a new set of characters that will interest the unwatching audience? How often does it work?

How many people honestly expect that one season into Advance Generation brings us to a new Pokemon format that does not follow this outline:

Ash & Co. meet a new person and a new Pokemon.

A "unique" situation is occuring with person and pokemmon.

Team Rocket tries to steal said Pokemon.

Team Rocket fails.

Situation is resolved.

Team Rocket tries once more, probobly in a mechanical Pokemon of some sorts, and fails again.

I'm not trying to knock the format here, but in all honesty Pokemon is an anime that revels in repeititon. Luckily, i love the format (more or less). I love hearing team Rocket say their motto, every SINGLE episode. But if they are just going to wind up doing the same show as always, why flush our friends down the toilet?

Just a thought.

[Hanada Tattsu]

You guys all have a point. And I do agree with Brian, we have already started to see the early Johto stereotyped fillers in Hoenn, and I won't be surprised if the fillers start again.

However, I am not ashamed in saying that Phanpy will become one of Ash's main Pokemon for this season. Out of all his Pokemon, he has neglected to train Phanpy hard, and I think Hoenn will be a great experience for him.

[DarkMarowak]

I agree, ditching the old school Pokemon was a huge mistake on the writer's part. After we grew to love Charizard, Squirtle and Bulbasaur so much, the writers give some stupid thought in their heads that make them say, "Ah screw these old farts. Let's ditch em so we can make everyone use newbies."

What annoys me even further about this is how often old school Pokemon become punching bags for newbies. They basically make the old school Pokemon look like crap compared to the new stuff.

Examples...

Corsola OHKOing a Gyarados with nothing more then a Spike Cannon.

Bulbasaur getting blasted away by that Skiploom's Solar Beam when he and Ash showed mercy and decided they didn't want to hurt it anymore.

Bayleef beating BOTH Poliwrath and Machoke pretty much on her own.

That Battle Park episode was basically made just to make the old school starters look pathetic.

Poor Arbok, Weezing and Victreebel have been beaten brutally by almost EVERY newbie Pokemon. They weren't even beaten up this badly in the first and second seasons.

..and it goes on and on... I mean sure the oldies have their moments (like Snorlax beating Kingdra :D ), but the newbie wins outweigh them.

[Bacl]

Originally posted by DarkMarowak
Poor Arbok, Weezing and Victreebel have beaten beaten brutally by almost EVERY newbie Pokemon. They weren't even beaten up this badly in the first and second seasons.

That's a very good point. I've heard other people grumble about Arbok being OHKO by a TACKLE attack from one of Ash's newbies, etc.

In the early epiosdes Team Rocket battled a little bit more. Heck, I remember one where Arbok managed to pull off a glare attack on BOTH Pikachu and Squirtle (the Ponyta race, I believe). But now if Wheezing and Arbok come out, they quickly go down.

But there is one Team Rocket Pokemon who can hold its own in battle, and that is Wobbuffet. Not that Jessie sends it out often, but when she does it always manages several counter attacks that make it look pretty tough. Is this benefit of the doubt given cause it's a new Pokemon and the writers have more interest in it then poor old Arbok? I don't want to be paranoid but...:yes:

[Rei_Zero]

Its not like we haven't seen little pokemon take out the big guns before. Remember, Krabby vs. Exeggutor? Pikachu vs. Raichu? Pikachu vs. Onix? Charmeleon KOed by Paras (LOL...that was funny)? Bellsprout whooping nearly every one of Ash's pokemon? Bulbasaur taking out a Syther? The list goes on and on. And just to tell you, solar beam is the strongest grass attack, and if Ash hadn't been merciful, he would have used it.

And the examples where the original pokemon took out the n00bs. Poliwhirl vs. Totodile, when Ash battled Bugsie, Falkner, and Morty? You remember how the gym leaders' pokemon kicked Ash's butt?

[Hanada Tattsu]

Yeah, I agree that the old Pokemon have started to beat the even older ones (RBY), but now for AG, they are all being ignored, which is worse than being KOed.

[Pewter City Geodude]

I dunno about that...in a recent AG episode a trainer has an Ariados and a Yanma.

[soggy_cardboard]

i can just picture ash saying something like:

"woah, a 2vs2 battle? We couldn't do that in kanto/johto!"

[Pewter City Geodude]

Well they do talk about 2vs2 battles in one of the already-aired episodes, and Ash tries one for the first time. I believe his opponent had a Yanma and Ariados, which proves that the old Pokemon haven't been completely forgotten by the writers.

[BenRG]

Originally posted by Pewter City Geodude
Well they do talk about 2vs2 battles in one of the already-aired episodes, and Ash tries one for the first time.Heck, that happened a long time ago, Geodude. Ash's first 2 vs. 2 battle was vs. Gym Leader Luana all the way back in the Orange League!

Originally posted by Pewter City Geodude
I believe his opponent had a Yanma and Ariados, which proves that the old Pokemon haven't been completely forgotten by the writers. I'm not sure if you are confused or if you are deliberately misunderstanding the point of our posts. :rolleyes: The RBY and GSC Pokémon in general have not been written out, nor have we suggested that they are. What we have said is that Ash's pre-Houen Pokémon (with the obvious exception of Pikachu) have been reduced to a reserve status. We won't see them in Ash's regular team ever again.

[Pewter City Geodude]

Oh right....maybe I was thinking of another thread....however, you can't argue against my statement being true, which it was. :P

[Ashi-chan]

Originally said by Hanada Tattsu:
Well, the show and the games are very different, 'tis has been stressed quite enough. However, the anime is much better because as Geodude said, there is the added treat of realism.

It's ironic that you say that. Most of the Pocket Monsters fans I know now think the anime's totally stupid but love the games.

But you're right about how the anime adds more realism to Pokemon battling. Even though I've never extensively played the games, I've noticed that no matter what the battle formula is basically the same--one Pokemon hits a blow @ the opposing Pokemon, the opposing Pokemon attacks the first Pokemon, and once in a while one of them might surprise attack. The anime battles aren't as linear. Outside elements, such as climate conditions and varying battlefields, affect how battles flow. The Pokemon attack whenever their trainer commands them, not once the other monster finishes its attack. Anime battles have a more three-dimensional feel to them, rather than the linear feel to the games.

It's sad though that now the writers seem to view the anime j/ as some huge advertisement for the video games. The games have sold well on their own and they always have. They don't need to totally alter the anime j/ to sell out the games and milk the cash cow anymore than they already have. The writers need to realize that even though the Pocket Monsters anime was spun off the ever-popular games, the anime is its own separate entity and treat it like its own item. Basing the anime totally on the game j/ makes it that much more predictable and unoriginal. Advance Generation holds a lot of potential to be a really great series--the writers j/ need to wake up, realize it, and get working.

[Hanada Tattsu]

Well, to tell the truth, the anime at least showcases some differences; you'd never find a Yanma and an Ariados in R/S, even if you wished, LOL.