Substitute strategies?

[Scythemantis]

It was always one of my favorite moves, it's one of the strangest, and now it's once again almost universally available.

I've never seen people use it much, though, and I'd like to make the best use of it I can, so I wanna hear some good movesets with it...what's it really best for? Which pokemon does it actually help out? Does it still work like it always did?

I was considering a substitute/recover sableye, but it's far too risky with those mediocre stats.

[Number1ChanseyFan]

Some people like to use a Baton Pass/Substitute combo, and Baton Pass a Substitute to Shedinja. A Baton Passed Substitute can work nice with Shedinja's Wonder Guard.

[Don't Run With Scizors]

Substitute is by far one of the absolute best moves in the game:

1) It gives you a chance to outpredict your opponent without taking risks. Use Substitute, and if the opposition attempts to use some sort of status effect or switch or some other move that doesn't affect you too badly, you've got a free turn. If they don't, all you've lost is 25% health (that's 19% or so with Leftovers), not the whole Pokémon.

1b) It also works great when coupled with confusion and Leech Seed. Focus Punch, Leech Seed, Teeter Dance, and Substitute @Leftovers Cacturne kicks ass.

2) If the user's HP is not divisible by four, use Substitute four times and your HP will be low enough for Reversal or Flail to have maximum power. Really fun to do with Medicham, Hitmonlee, and Zangoose.

[rinku]

I've only just started to play with this, on Kecleon. The moveset I've been using to interesting effect (on L50 Battletower) is:

Slash
Shadow Ball
Skill Swap
Substitute

@ Leftovers (gets back your Substitute HP in 4 turns, counting the one in which you used it!)

Seems to work well. As always, Kecleon has issues with physical sweepers, but he's proved to be an absolute KILLER Ghost-buster - they can't affect him with Ghost moves until they hit him once with somehting else (which is usually a Special type attack he can laugh off), by which time his Substitute is up and he gets a free turn to kill them in one hit with Shadow Ball.

Skill Swap and Shadow Ball combine to allow him to get a supereffective attack vs anything but Normal, though I've been finding that trick is less useful than just stealing a good Special Ability or two/keeping him Normal and using STAB Slashes.

Focus Punch instead of Skill Swap looks like it would be good too.

[Edit]
On Cacturne, Ingrain is a possible alternate for Leech Seed - it will still work if the opponent is Grass or hard to hit, gets back the 1/4 Hp in record time with Leftovers, and it prevents pseudohazing (which I'd guess is a Substitutor's worst nightmare...). On the downside, it prevents voluntary switching ;)

[Scythemantis]

The sub/ingrain/leftovers cacturne sounds great...there's also my poor, poor gloom. I'm always trying to make it useful without having to evolve it. For a while I've used Sleep Powder, Sludge Bomb, Return, and Double Team which isn't terribly effective, so what about:

Gloom@leftovers
Substitute
Double Team
Sludge Bomb/Return
Giga Drain/stun spore

Eh? ...opponent'll probably mow through the sub before I even get a few D-teams in...course, gloom does have okay HP. What about the same moveset on Muk (about the only good pokemon I use) with sludgebomb and flamethrower for the last two?

[Pewter City Geodude]

Originally posted by rinku
I've only just started to play with this, on Kecleon. The moveset I've been using to interesting effect (on L50 Battletower) is:

Slash
Shadow Ball
Skill Swap
Substitute

@ Leftovers (gets back your Substitute HP in 4 turns, counting the one in which you used it!)

You're using Substitute on Kecleon without Focus Punch? Wow. :P I have a Substitute/Focus Punch/Leftovers Kecleon in my Sapphire game, and it works awesomely.

[Green_Pikachu]

just an example of how i used it in gsc. i had a jolteon with substitute/hp ice/thunderbolt/growth with leftovers. they led with a either forry or cloyster, i forget. probably cloyster, because i remember them switching right away. i used substitute on that switch, which went to blissey. so i used growth, as they ice beamed, but my sub still held up. i growthed again, and they broke the sub with ice beam. i subbed, they ice beamed, sub still up. i growth again, ice beam break sub. i sub, they ice beam, sub stays up, they ice beam. now i thunderbolt, taking a big chunk off, as they break the sub. i growth, as they softboiled. i sub, as they ice beam. i thunderbolt, they ice beam and break sub. i thunderbolt, they softboiled, i thunderbolt, they ice beam. then i thunderbolt for the kill.

after that, jolteon sweep his other 5 pokemon in 1 move each. funny huh?

[rinku]

Originally posted by Pewter City Geodude
You're using Substitute on Kecleon without Focus Punch? Wow. :P

I'm going to breed for that one. Return is also an option - if you can keep Kecleon Normal - as it does the same damage with STAB. Better for Flying/Poison/Psychic/Bug, worse for Rock/Steel/Dark/Normal.

The intent of this guy was the Skill Swap/Shadow Ball thing. I wanted to leave the other slots free for reusable moves - he's an experiment. No need to burn a Focus Punch TM on a Kecleon anyway, since you can breed it from Vigroth in one step.