Can Mind Reader be Baton Passed?

[Gagome]

I think yes. I played with a Ninjask BPing Mind Reader to a Walrein which then immediately used Sheer Cold and it always worked. I have now tried this about 10 times in-game and it never failed.
Currently I am breeding for a Medicham which too can learn Mind Reader and Baton Pass to test this further because Ninjask doesn't have the staying power to successfully build up Mind Reader.

[Chris 2.1]

I'm not a game-guru, but this doesn't sound right...

Mind reader ensures the next attack will have 100% accuracy, right? well you use baton-pass after mind reader, so surely the Mind Reader ensures that BP has 100% accuracy?

Someone back me up ^^

[Sir Chris]

Uhh... No, it does not. Unless they changed the mechanics in r/s which I am not aware of, mind reader can not be baton passed.

[Gagome]

...
Mind reader ensures the next attack will have 100% accuracy, right? well you use baton-pass after mind reader, so surely the Mind Reader ensures that BP has 100% accuracy?
...

Yeah, I have assumed the same. But I have read somewhere it might work and then tried it myself with the Ninjask -> Walrein combo. And indeed it worked right ten times in a row. Given the fact that Sheer Cold has only 30% accuracy I don't believe I had so much luck that it hits ten times without a single failure.
Maybe there is some additional influence that mostly the foe pokemon I was battling was at a lower level than my Walrein. So, I am currently trying to battle e-Reader Battle Teams at level 50 (my Walrein is level 50). But unforunately Ninjask usually gets killed right after it used Mind Reader before I even got a chance to BP.
So, I want to try with a Medicham which learns Baton Pass as an egg move and Mind Reader naturally.
Are there any other pokemon which can learn Mind Reader/Lock On and Baton Pass?

[Sir Chris]

Yeah, I have assumed the same. But I have read somewhere it might work and then tried it myself with the Ninjask -> Walrein combo. And indeed it worked right ten times in a row. Given the fact that Sheer Cold has only 30% accuracy I don't believe I had so much luck that it hits ten times without a single failure.
Maybe there is some additional influence that mostly the foe pokemon I was battling was at a lower level than my Walrein. So, I am currently trying to battle e-Reader Battle Teams at level 50 (my Walrein is level 50). But unforunately Ninjask usually gets killed right after it used Mind Reader before I even got a chance to BP.
So, I want to try with a Medicham which learns Baton Pass as an egg move and Mind Reader naturally.
Are there any other pokemon which can learn Mind Reader/Lock On and Baton Pass?

Begin 1-on-1 battle: orochi[test] vs. SirChris!
orochi[test] sent out ninjask (NINJASK M L100)!
SirChris sent out King (HERACROSS M L100)!
orochi[test]'s NINJASK used MIND READER!
orochi[test]'s NINJASK took aim at SirChris's HERACROSS!
SirChris's HERACROSS used SWORDS DANCE!
SirChris's HERACROSS's ATTACK sharply rose!
---------------------
orochi[test]'s NINJASK used BATON PASS!
orochi[test] sent out articuno (ARTICUNO L100)!
SirChris's HERACROSS used SWORDS DANCE!
SirChris's HERACROSS's ATTACK sharply rose!
---------------------
SirChris's HERACROSS used SWORDS DANCE!
SirChris's HERACROSS's ATTACK sharply rose!
orochi[test]'s ARTICUNO used SHEER COLD!
It's a one-hit KO!
SirChris's HERACROSS fainted! (orochi[test]: 2 - SirChris: 5)
SirChris withdrew HERACROSS!
SirChris sent out Alakazam (ALAKAZAM M L100)!
---------------------
orochi[test] withdrew ARTICUNO!
orochi[test] sent out ninjask (NINJASK M L100)!
SirChris's ALAKAZAM used CALM MIND!
SirChris's ALAKAZAM's SP. ATK rose!
SirChris's ALAKAZAM's SP. DEF rose!
---------------------
orochi[test]'s NINJASK used MIND READER!
orochi[test]'s NINJASK took aim at SirChris's ALAKAZAM!
SirChris's ALAKAZAM used CALM MIND!
SirChris's ALAKAZAM's SP. ATK rose!
SirChris's ALAKAZAM's SP. DEF rose!
orochi[test]'s NINJASK's SPEED BOOST raised its SPEED!
---------------------
orochi[test]'s NINJASK used BATON PASS!
orochi[test] sent out articuno (ARTICUNO L100)!
SirChris's ALAKAZAM used CALM MIND!
SirChris's ALAKAZAM's SP. ATK rose!
SirChris's ALAKAZAM's SP. DEF rose!
---------------------
orochi[test]'s ARTICUNO used SHEER COLD!
orochi[test]'s ARTICUNO's attack missed!
SirChris's ALAKAZAM used CALM MIND!
SirChris's ALAKAZAM's SP. ATK rose!
SirChris's ALAKAZAM's SP. DEF rose!

there ya go.

[Gagome]

Yeah, that is on RsBot. But I am talking in-game here.

Technically Mind Reader seems to give the next move which is Baton Pass 100% accuracy. But BP doesn't have any accuracy at all. It never fails anyway (except you only have one pokemon left) and doesn't BP leave all stat changes and everything else (like Mean Look and Perish Song, for example) untouched and simply switches another pokemon in? In that case could it not be that Mind Reader is still in effect and gives the next move 100% accuracy?

[Sir Chris]

RSbot is a perfect emulation to in-game

same difference.

[Don't Run With Scizors]

Just because RSbot is the most up-to-date RSFRLG battle simulator doesn't mean it's perfectly accurate. RSbot's coding is only as accurate as what the programmers thought really occurs within the game. But there's always some weird quirk in the programming that people only discover by accident. Like Belly Drum acting like Swords Dance when HP was below half back in GSC. Or the fact that 100% accuracy moves did in fact have 100% accuracy, not 99.6%.

I'd say this is definitely something worth looking into further. You might want to try this multiple times with the opponent having six Double Teams up and the OHKO user having been Baton Passed Mind Reader and six accuracy downs.

[Remy]

I have a feeling that Mind Reader cannot be passed based on the attack description:
"Ensures that user's next attack will hit without fail"
In this case, wouldn't the next attack used by the user be Baton Pass?

also...

I think yes. I played with a Ninjask BPing Mind Reader to a Walrein which then immediately used Sheer Cold and it always worked. I have now tried this about 10 times in-game and it never failed.

I want to know if both parties were level 100. If the opposing party is of a lower level, Sheer Cold's accuracy is much higher.

[Gagome]

"Ensures that user's next attack will hit without fail"

Yes, but Baton Pass is not really an attack and cannot hit anything. I believe that BP is just a switch to another pokemon and everything which was active or present before the switch is still active and present. Including maybe Mind Reader.
With two GBAs I may try what DRWS suggests.

I want to know if both parties were level 100. If the opposing party is of a lower level, Sheer Cold's accuracy is much higher.

I think I remember reading something about this. My Walrein is at level 50 and the opposing pokemon were all at a lower level, the highest level 40.
I want to test this with opponents at level 50. Right now I have an e-Reader Battle Team of Starmie, Salamence and Sceptile (all at level 50) set up in Mossdeep City and unfortunately my Ninjask (at level 54) doesn't survive a single Ice Beam/Thunderbolt or Flamethrower and cannot set up Mind Reader/BP. I will train it to a higher level or try with a Medicham.

[Remy]

"Ensures that user's next attack will hit without fail"

Yes, but Baton Pass is not really an attack and cannot hit anything. I believe that BP is just a switch to another pokemon and everything which was active or present before the switch is still active and present. Including maybe Mind Reader.
With two GBAs I may try what DRWS suggests.

I want to know if both parties were level 100. If the opposing party is of a lower level, Sheer Cold's accuracy is much higher.

I think I remember reading something about this. My Walrein is at level 50 and the opposing pokemon were all at a lower level, the highest level 40.
I want to test this with opponents at level 50. Right now I have an e-Reader Battle Team of Starmie, Salamence and Sceptile (all at level 50) set up in Mossdeep City and unfortunately my Ninjask (at level 54) doesn't survive a single Ice Beam/Thunderbolt or Flamethrower and cannot set up Mind Reader/BP. I will train it to a higher level or try with a Medicham.


Mind Reader does not specify that the attack needs to be damage dealing nor does it need to be directed at an opponent. But yes you'll need to test it out with an equivalent level.

[Sir Chris]

Just because RSbot is the most up-to-date RSFRLG battle simulator doesn't mean it's perfectly accurate. RSbot's coding is only as accurate as what the programmers thought really occurs within the game. But there's always some weird quirk in the programming that people only discover by accident. Like Belly Drum acting like Swords Dance when HP was below half back in GSC. Or the fact that 100% accuracy moves did in fact have 100% accuracy, not 99.6%.

I'd say this is definitely something worth looking into further. You might want to try this multiple times with the opponent having six Double Teams up and the OHKO user having been Baton Passed Mind Reader and six accuracy downs.

This has been MUCH more tested than gsbot. I myself as on eof th ebeta testers spent 100s of hours in r/s testing out every little thing for fanha, it IS accurate to the penny.

and thus, there should be no more discussion =P

[Don't Run With Scizors]

There are a few inaccuracies that come to my mind that didn't get fixed until many months after the RSbot's release. How come you didn't catch these?

- Intimidate fails if the opponent has a Sub up. Or just about every other move with some weird effect (like Yawn or Thief or Leech Seed) against Substitute. I had to wait three months before my Substituting Grumpig could be rendered impervious to Ludicolos.

- Speed Boost doesn't activate until the Speed Boost user has had one turn in play.

- Liquid Ooze applies to Leech Seed as well.

I could probably find a lot more if I looked through the version history. Evidently, you beta testers didn't do enough beta testing.

It's really presumptuous of you to assume that everything about RS has already been discovered, especially in light of this new evidence in the Mind Reader/BP case.

[Sir Chris]

There is no new evidence, he was facing opponents at a lower level, of course its going to ohko. we miss a few things and we probably told fanha bout them, but he got lazy for awhile. The bot is right... but hey, its not my time, go ahead and waste your time breeding pokemon k? :P

[Gagome]

Ok, I have done now a few tests:

First, I battled the lvl 50 Battle Tower Team (Starmie, Salamence, Sceptile) in Mossdeep City. My Walrein is at lvl 50. Again it worked 9 times without a single miss. The last battle even went:

my Ninjask uses Mind Reader
foe Sceptile uses Double Team
my Ninjask uses Baton Pass -> switch to Walrein
foe Sceptile uses Double Team
my Walrein uses Sheer Cold
foe Sceptile fainted

Then I linked two GBAs together and battled my Sapphire game. The foes were Medicham, Golbat and Haryjama, all at lvl 50. All know the move Double Team.
I first used six times Double Team on both Pokemon then Mind Reader, switch to Walrein and Sheer Cold.

my Ninjask uses Double Team
foe Medicham uses Double Team (1st)
my Ninjask uses Double Team
foe Medicham uses Double Team (2nd)
my Ninjask uses Double Team
foe Medicham uses Double Team (3rd)
my Ninjask uses Double Team
foe Medicham uses Double Team (4th)
my Ninjask uses Double Team
foe Medicham uses Double Team (5th)
my Ninjask uses Double Team
foe Medicham uses Double Team (6th)
my Ninjask uses Mind Reader
foe Medicham uses Calm Mind
my Ninjask uses Baton Pass -> switch to Walrein
foe Medicham uses Calm Mind
my Walrein uses Sheer Cold
foe Medicham fainted

foe Golbat comes in
I switch to Ninjask
foe Golbat uses Double Team (1st)
my Ninjask uses Double Team
foe Golbat uses Double Team (2nd)
my Ninjask uses Double Team
foe Golbat uses Double Team (3rd)
my Ninjask uses Double Team
foe Golbat uses Double Team (4th)
my Ninjask uses Double Team
foe Golbat uses Double Team (5th)
my Ninjask uses Double Team
foe Golbat uses Double Team (6th)
my Ninjask uses Mind Reader -> misses
foe Golbat uses Double Team (useless)
my Ninjask uses Mind Reader -> misses
foe Golbat uses Double Team (useless)
my Ninjask uses Mind Reader -> misses
foe Golbat uses Double Team (useless)
my Ninjask uses Mind Reader
foe Golbat uses Double Team (useless)
my Ninjask uses Baton Pass -> switch to Walrein
foe Golbat uses Wing Attack
my Walrein uses Sheer Cold
foe Golbat fainted

now Mind Reader of my Ninjask has gone out of PP, so I couldn't repeat the same with the last Pokemon Haryjama. But I am sure it would have worked exactly the same.

I think this is prove enough and I am now pretty sure Mind Reader can be Baton Passed!

[boy]

does it work in colloseum?

[rinku]

Nice research!

Another thing that should work is Sweet Scent. Sweet Scent + Grasswhistle followed by switching to a OHKO type. But countered by switching, which BP Mind Reader + OHKO is not.

Of course, it will generally be obvious what is going to happen... switching to a Sturdy type would be the obvious response (preferably one not too vulnerable to Walrein... Magneton or Skarmory?)

[Remy]

I think an addition to this research is to give the BP 6 sand-attacks,etc. and BPed to OHKO pokemon.

[Don't Run With Scizors]

This is definately worth looking into further, though I'd feel more secure doing this with maybe, say, ten trials with Sand-Attack included. It might be easier to do this in a 2-on-2 battle using Psych Up to pass around the Sand-Attacks and Double Teams so you don't have to use them so many times.

EDIT: I talked to Meowth346, and here's what he has to say:

Meowth346: Pokemon Forever lists "Baton Pass" as the effect "User switches Pokémon without losing increased stats and battle-only status conditions, such as Leech Seed."
Meowth346: Mind Reader is a "battle-only status condition" that wears off, like Perish Song or Future Sight.

[rinku]

Meowth may not have thought to test this one, especially if it worked differently in GSC (assuming it was possible in GSC to get Baton Pass and Mind Reader/Lock On onto the same pokémon then).

[red5bv06]

This is probably a glitch like the Present glitch back in GSC (which GSbot didn't pick up on either, I believe)

[Gagome]

This is probably a glitch like the Present glitch back in GSC (which GSbot didn't pick up on either, I believe)
I don't believe it is a glitch.

Meowth346: Pokemon Forever lists "Baton Pass" as the effect "User switches Pokémon without losing increased stats and battle-only status conditions, such as Leech Seed."
Meowth346: Mind Reader is a "battle-only status condition" that wears off, like Perish Song or Future Sight.

This says it all. Mind Reader is a battle-only status condition and therefore it is passed on to the Baton Passed pokemon.
I am sure it works like the programmer's wanted it.

Eh, what is the Present glitch in GSC? I never heard about it.

[phaedrus]

Eh, what is the Present glitch in GSC? I never heard about it.

Present does, basically, three types of damage. It either does Heal Opponents HP, Some Damage, or BIG BIG BIG Damage.

In GSC, Blissey could get present. If you think about, Present would run of Atk, and Blissey sucks *** with Atk. But the glitch is, it doesn't run off the Atk. I don't know which it runs off of, but I personally think the damage is just there, like Sonicboom or Dragon Rage.

The Present Bug allowed Blisseys to OHKO Umbreons. 'nuff said.

[Don't Run With Scizors]

Well, the Present glitch in GSC used the exact same damage formula as all other moves, but by some weird mistake it substituted the number representing type into the opponent's defense part of the formula. I don't remember the exact mechanics, but basically Pokémon whose type (or their second type if their type was a dual type) was an elemental type took lots of damage from it whereas physical types took very little damage. Dark types took the most damage of all from Present, which is why it was possible to OHKO an Umbreon with it.

[rinku]

Was anything ever released from Nintendo/Game Freak about it being a bug? It seems to me it might have been intended to be like that all along - it's a pretty weird move in any case.

I certainly can see why Dark might get punished more then Normal - they've been bad little pokémon and deserve a big lump of coal...