No 2x weakness team

[Deviou$]

I was thinking, wouldn't it be cool if there was a team with not only no 3x weaknesses, but no 2x weaknesses?

Now, I'm not good at R/S, and I don't know the metagame and such so don't be too harsh if what I'm proposing has already been done and abused and stuff, but I can up with one such team:

Skarm
Manectric (or any pure electric)
Dusclops (or any pure ghost)
Weezing
Slaking (or any pure normal)
Kingdra

Now that's pretty easy, because each of these Pokemon only have one or two weaknesses. This team WOULD be 2x weak to ground but Weezing has Levitate of course, making him immune.

I'd like to see whether this specific team would be very good (Manectric/Dusclops/Slaking could be replaced by anything of their type, and Kingdra could probably be replaced by another dragon although I wouldn't like that) and whether my idea is all that useful in the first place. I mean, if a 3x ground or fighting weakness is crippling, then 2x weaknesses are better. Would only having 1x weaknesses be that much better?

What movesets could I use for these Pokemon?

[rinku]

Your team is better than just avoiding x2 weaknesses - many of them have (or potentially have) a good range of immunities:

Dusclops - Fighting & Normal
Skarmory - Ground & Poison & (if sturdy) OHKOs
Weezing - Ground, being poisoned
Slaking - Ghost

This could be extended by replacing Dusclops with Sableye (adds immunity to Psychic). Note that Sableye alone has no weaknesses and can be added to any team with this approach.

Magnetric can be switched with Electrode to add immunity to Attract, and can be Soundproof as well.

Looks like a solid concept.

[Green_Pikachu]

yes, but dusclops is also a lot more useful than sableye. sableye is crap. dusclops is good. therefore, the extra immunity isn't worth it.

[rinku]

Dusclops is very different to Sableye, but I'd dispute Sableye being useless. For a start, Sableye vs Dusclops would favour Sableye - Sableye has better HP, Attack, Special Attack and Speed. Taking supereffectiveness into account, Sableye's Shadow Ball is more potent vs Dusclops than the reverse.

There are only 4 Ruby/Sapphire Ghosts (excluding 1st stage ones), and all of them are quite different.

[phaedrus]

Dusclops is very different to Sableye, but I'd dispute Sableye being useless. For a start, Sableye vs Dusclops would favour Sableye - Sableye has better HP, Attack, Special Attack and Speed. Taking supereffectiveness into account, Sableye's Shadow Ball is more potent vs Dusclops than the reverse.

There are only 4 Ruby/Sapphire Ghosts (excluding 1st stage ones), and all of them are quite different.

dusclops: calmmind-icebeam-willowisp-rest

dusclops w/ calmmind owns sableye. and with will-o-wisp it certainly owns it big time.

calmmind gets the sp.def.
willowisp covers defense
and since sableye's stats are crap, icebeam will own sableye. rest can too.

thus, dusclops owns sableye, though sableye is cooler.

[rinku]

Sableye acts first and has Shadow Ball:

Turn 1:

Sableye uses Shadow Ball. Will do more than 1/2 HP, since it is supereffective and Sableye gets STAB (a crit will finish this battle right here and now)
(a)Dusclops uses Will-o-wisp. Sableye takes 1/8 HP unless it had an appropriate berry. Will-o-wisp also has a 25% failure rate.
(b)Dusclops does something else

Turn 2:
Sableye uses Shadow Ball, 1/2 strength if Burned. If Sableye is not Burned, Dusclops goes down - if it criticals Dusclops goes down regardless.
If Sableye *is* burned, it switches to using Faint Attack - it *is* possible (depending on individual numbers) for one Shadow Ball + 1 Faint Attack to cause enough HP. I checked with average values and it's pretty close to the exact number required. Personality and effort would make the difference, as would a lucky Special Defense drop from the 1st turn Shadow Ball.
(a)Dusclops uses Protect, Sableye takes another 1/8 HP
(b)Dusclops uses Rest

Turn 3:
Sableye uses Faint Attack or 1/2 strength Shadow Ball and will KO Dusclops if it did not use Protect or Rest on turn 2.

I agree that Will-o-wisp + Rest works, but it is not foolproof, and is derailed simply by having a Lum berry on Sableye. Sableye's Faint Attack only take 3 turns to kill Dusclops - resting alone will not save it, though a Chesto-Rest might.

Icebeam is not in the equation - it would take 3-4 turns to KO Sableye, So unless you get a Frozen result on turn 1, Dusclops goes down on turn 2. Calm Mind will have zero effect for the same reason.

[Rabid_Cow]

Ok, that isn't right bud. You shouldn't just pit two pokemon that are fighting for the same spot on a team against eachother, it's just not right. Dusclops and Sableye have totally different roles and the pokemon that best applies for the position should receive it! As said by rinku himself:
There are only 4 Ruby/Sapphire Ghosts (excluding 1st stage ones), and all of them are quite different. If you're wantin a tank go w/Dusclops. If you're wanting a sweeper/pokemon w/o weakness go w/Sableye! That's all there is to it.

[rinku]

Yup. That's all I was saying all along.

But I felt obliged to address the wild claim that Dusclops owns Sableye. 'Taint so.

[Deviou$]

This is off topic! I just wanted to see whether a team without 2x weaknesses would be all that much better than a team with, say, a 2x Fighting, Psychic and Rock weaknesses.

EDIT: Thanks for the Dusclops m/s. Ice Beam? Odd for a ghost, but I can see it happening. There aren't many ghosts in the first place so I can't really say it's too odd though. Is Dusky standard?

Also does anyone know a good Skarm set for this team? Is spikes, toxic and whirlwind a good idea?

[rinku]

The spike & switch set is common for Skarmory, but you won't be able to get Whirlwind bred on it with only Ruby & Sapphire pokémon. Roar is possible.

[phaedrus]

with the dusclops ms.....

you calmmind, wow. rest is an obvious tank option. so you have a last spot.

think. calmmind raises sp.atk. so, whats a move to take advantage of that? ice beam. there's also psychic but icebeam has the higher power.

[Rudoku]

with the dusclops ms.....

you calmmind, wow. rest is an obvious tank option. so you have a last spot.

think. calmmind raises sp.atk. so, whats a move to take advantage of that? ice beam. there's also psychic but icebeam has the higher power.

Guess who else can learn Calm Mind?

[HedgeCat]

and since sableye's stats are crap, icebeam will own sableye. rest can too.

Explain how rest can own Sableye.

[rinku]

with the dusclops ms.....

you calmmind, wow. rest is an obvious tank option. so you have a last spot.

think. calmmind raises sp.atk. so, whats a move to take advantage of that? ice beam. there's also psychic but icebeam has the higher power.

But the problem is that since Sableye has a physical attack that causes more than 50% HP to Dusclops, and is faster, using Calm Mind is suicide.

Turn 1:
Sableye uses Shadow Ball (knocking it out if it criticals).
Dusclops uses Calm Mind

Turn 2:
Sableye knocks out Dusclops with Shadow Ball.

Ice Beam is a good move, but all I'm saying is that Dusclops needs time to build itself up to make it effective or to wear down the opponent if it is not vulnerable (Dusclops has a truly lousy special attack). Against anything with Shadow Ball and either STAB or a decent Attack value, it does not have the luxury of time.

[rinku]

Explain how rest can own Sableye.

Alone it can't, but it can in combo with Will-o-wisp if certain other things don't happen (i.e. Lum berry on Sableye, Sableye uses Snatch to put a Burn on Dusclops, Sableye gets no criticals etc). If Sableye's Atack is not reduced, it will kill Dusclops before it wakes up.

Sableye is a good Ghost killer since it is the only Ghost type (STAB on Shadow Ball) that is not vulnerable to Ghost attacks. However a decent Attack value Normal with Shadow Ball is generally better in this role (take your pick. I like Kecleon) . Sableye is an annoyer/assassin; the three immunities allow it to switch in to something that can't hurt it, or can't hurt it badly, and do something useful.

Oh yeah... I thought of another way it can clean up Dusclops, or any other slow tank with weak attacks - use Taunt on the first turn to prevent it using Will-o-wisp, Rest, Calm Mind, Toxic or Protect.

[phaedrus]

But the problem is that since Sableye has a physical attack that causes more than 50% HP to Dusclops, and is faster, using Calm Mind is suicide.

Turn 1:
Sableye uses Shadow Ball (knocking it out if it criticals).
Dusclops uses Calm Mind

Turn 2:
Sableye knocks out Dusclops with Shadow Ball.

Ice Beam is a good move, but all I'm saying is that Dusclops needs time to build itself up to make it effective or to wear down the opponent if it is not vulnerable (Dusclops has a truly lousy special attack). Against anything with Shadow Ball and either STAB or a decent Attack value, it does not have the luxury of time.

i wasn't talking 'bout battling sableye. i was just explaining the ms out in standard, non-sableye circumstances.

[rinku]

Sorry, misread the post slightly. Yes, in general Calm Mind and Ice Beam will work. I think Dusclops can do better with other sets, but after a couple of Calm Minds you will have gotten its Special Attack up to average levels and it can start to be effective vs non-vulnerables.

[Ultimate Pikachu]

Shadow Ball from Sableye would not do 50% damage. Besides, Dusclops and Sableye have completly different roles.

Sableye Base Stats
HP:50
Att:75
Def:75
Speed:50
Sp Att:65
Sp Def:65

Not very good.

Dusclops Base Stats
HP:40
Att:70
Def:130
Speed:30
Sp Att:60
Sp Def:130

Dusclops even has a better ability to boot. Dusclops>>>>>Sableye in general. And What if Dusclops was Bold with maxed out Defense?

[rinku]

Shadow Ball from Sableye would not do 50% damage.

These are my working calculations and assumptions:

Both L100, all stats have IV15 and no effort.

Sableye's Attack will be 170
Dusclop's Defense will be 280, HP 205
Power of Shadow Ball is 80

Damage formula is:

INT(INT(INT(2*Level/5+2)*Attack*Power/Defense)/50+2)

= 42 HP damage before modifiers

This is modified by:

INT(INT(INT(RawDam*STAB)*TypeMod)*Random/255)

giving a final damage range between 107 and 126 (average 116).

Since 107 is more than half of 205, Sableye IS doing more than 50% HP, in average cases

Reworking this with all stats at max values (31 EV, 252 effort on all relevant stats) gives the following numbers:

Sableye: 249 Attack
Dusclops: 359 Defense, 284 HP

Which gives a raw damage value of 48 and a final damage range of 122 - 144. In this case (Maxed out Defense & HP Dusclops) I agree that it will take three hits for Sableye to fell Dusclops, unless it gets lucky. Personalities will not make a huge difference in this case (+Defense Dusclops still goes down in three). If Dusclops does NOT have close to max effort on HP and on Defense, it still goes down in two.

[rinku]

Sableye Base Stats
HP:50
Att:75
Def:75
Speed:50
Sp Att:65
Sp Def:65

Not very good.

Dusclops Base Stats
HP:40
Att:70
Def:130
Speed:30
Sp Att:60
Sp Def:130


But the whole point of the above is that these only tell half the story. Vs Ghost & Psychic attacks Sableye's defenses are actually *better* than Dusclops' due to type effects, vs Dark they are similar with Sableye getting the nod for more HP, and vs Normal and Fighting the differences are moot. In these circumstances Sableye has better stats across the board. I'm not trying to say Sableye is some kind of super-poke, but it is tougher than many people give it credit for.

[[McGraw]]

This thread does nothing to dispell the fact that people are idiots.

So Sableye might beat Dusclops in 1v1, so can a lot of things, therefore so what? As for fitting into the metagame as a whole, Sableye fails miserably.

The problem with teams that have few weaknesses is that they also have few resistances, but more importantly, USEFUL restistances. Immunities are good, but often they are to uncommon types. Besides, most pokemon pack something to counter those immune to it - fire blast poison pokes, anyone? hidden power electrics? and so the list goes on. I would prefer to have many more resistances, even if it meant having more weaknesses. Ideally, the number of resistances should be at least equal to the number of weaknesses to each type.

[vaporjolt]

D.E.S.T.I.N.Y. B.O.N.D. :yes:

[Gligar_Man]

this is a funny thread, :\ listen to graw peoples...

also rinku, nobody would have a dusclops without any evs in hp or def, nor would anyone bother trying to make a sableye that would fight a dusclops using shadow ball without any attack... so from that your theory is flawed (nor did you account for the lefties clops and most likely sableye will have) if you pit them up against eachother ayways even if sableye did max he could not 2hko dusclops anyways (max hp/def & max attack, to fight eachother this way for some reason) 124-146 dmg, dusclops has 284 hp, lets say he does max 146 both times... 284-146 = 138, 138+17 (leftovers) = 155, attack again... 9 hp is left... then 17 is added (36)... anyways, even if he didnt have a +def personality... theres still a decent chance he wont be ohkod... anyways, in reality a dusclops wont have that much defense (some... but most likely not) in reality a dusclops would probably wouldnt stay in against a clops, and they would most likely never attack eachother, however a dusclops w/0 attack evs can also 2hko a sableye with 252 in either def or hp... (the dusclops who used up all his eps in def/hp whatever... will beat the sableye with 252 in attack and the rest in hp or def) anyways... i just for some reason figured i should correct that before this dies, :\

edit: no 2x weakness teams arent hard to make... use pogeys like... well suicune, blissey/snorlax, salamence, machamp, foret & jolteon/elec, pogeys like kingdra also help, elecs, normals, scizor/forets, dragon/flying (rock, dragon & ice... all somewhat uncommon) water types blend well, meh... anyways dudes intentions were good looking for some advantage, ive personally used a team like that (accidentally) it did well but it worked better when i changed it (thus making it have some 2x) but whatever...

[rinku]

All I was trying to do was show that Dusclops does not "own" Sableye, that in fact it is more likely to be the reverse. Naturally there are many, many variables that will make a difference. In fact, the easiest way for Sableye to take out Dusclops is to simply use Taunt - that forces it into a shooting match (no Will-o-wisp, Rest, Calm Mind, Destiny Bond etc) which it should lose over 2-3 rounds regardless of DVs, effort or personality.