Why am I the only one who thinks this...?

[Darien Shields]

Why am I the only one who thinks that people with an obvious writing impediment should not be coddled and lulled into a flase sense of security, but instead given a swift sharp kick to the backside, which will either insite improvement, or (better yet?) send them careering away at the same speed as which they approached? I'm not talking about flaming, I'm just talking about very harsh (yet accurate) comments. I do not feel adverse to doing so, yet cannot remember a time when I have dispensed such rightful criticism. Except when 2ra was writing that malady... at which point I stated my utter confusion as to how such an abomonation could draw such a crowd. But in general everyone's very nice. "You've got a lot of room for improvement, but definate potential", that sort of thing. I'd be more inclined to say; "It's all bad. You need to improve everything, except- no, wait, except nothing." or something like that. Is everyone else resisting this urge, or dare I say it- is it not present within your hearts?!

I must scour the forum to find the standard of fics, and my opinion of them... Perhaps I am wrong, perhaps there are no trully dreadful fics here, perhaps not. But I'm on the warpath now, so if there's anything or anyone that deserves a swift, sharp kick in the backside (or even in the front side), I'll be there to provide it.

[Mindprobe]

If you really want to do that, go and review my fiction. I'm thankful of all reviews and feedback that I've gotten so far, never would've imagined I'd get such popularity, if the amounts of people reading my fic can be called 'popularity'. I know I have problems with grammar because English is my 3rd language. But I need some real feedback and point sharply where I am going wrong. That way, I could be able to fix that and then perhaps, advance as a writer. I do think there is not many of you though, giving strong critism, but I'm glad there is at least one that I know now. I think what you could offer is valuable to some people, but only some. That style of reviewing can bring someone's moral to write down, all the way down. My advice is, don't do it if they are seriously in not need of it. I am, because I want to make my fiction enjoyable and develop my skills. Thank you for listening me.

[Iveechan]

I THINK it, I'm just too scared to outright say it. You never know how folks react.

[Dragonfree]

I think that too. Man, I hate when people say they've read the first three chapters of the old Quest for the Legends and claim it's the best thing they've ever read... come on, it doesn't get decent until chapter 23 or something... THANKFULLY I've taken the old version off my site now.

[Tainted]

That's why nobody reads stories anymore-- everyone's sick of bullshitting everything. If I 'told it as it was' I'd be banned, probably because I'd come off as insulting. That's why I don't read stories unless they're something other than Pokemon/Random Shitty New Anime, because they tend to have a little more promise than stories of little dumb**** critters-- or how someone just replaces characters from said anime and makes their "own" plot. I use the term "own" loosely, as it's normally a near direct rip of the original anime.

If I appear bitter, it's because I am. Nothing that even actually does have promise gets read because the forums are so clogged with ****. There, I said it. I can't really judge my own writing, so I like it when people are actually honest-- and I have had some. You feel insulted sometimes, but I've gotten over that, and I'm much more pleased when I find someone who wants to help me out by saying "this sucks, that sucks-- but this is good" rather than just pointing out the good parts.
But hell, what do you expect from a Pokemon board?

Adieu,
Zak Hunter

[2ra]

Although I agree that posts shouldn't all be "Wow, this fic is perfect I love it!" I don't agree that you should go all out to say that someone’s fic totally sucks. I personally don't agree that you're basically telling everyone that it's alright to break someone’s writing spirit by giving them harsh criticism. When you criticize someone’s you have to lay it down gently to not only tell them what they can do to make their fan fic better, but also get it through without hurting their feelings. Just because someone is new at writing doesn't mean you have to scar them for life and make them hate writing because of the fear of flaming them for how they express themselves.

Think of it this way, everyone has to start somewhere and I'm sure someone’s criticism helped you become who you are today and it most probably didn't involve flaming or harsh criticism and even if it did you must look back to see how bad it made you feel and prevent it from happening to others.

I'm living proof that telling people how bad their fic harshly does not help at all and I'm not going to name who that person was because I don't appreciate them using me as examples every time something about poorly written fan fics comes up. Although I don't like admitting it, what that person said really hurt me deep inside and practically broke my spirit. Especially in my case because how I feel about myself is dependant on how others feel about me and that just gave me a bad outlook and scarred me towards writing fan fiction. I wouldn't be writing right now if I hadn't re-evaluated myself and decided that quitting would only mean that that certain person would win and I wasn't just about to allow that. So with that I looked at other fan fics, the constructive criticism from other posts, writing technique sites and my teachers to improve my writing skills because that "harsh criticism" didn't help me at all.

Even after all that, I'm still not the best writer out there and I never will be because there is someone out there who will always be better, but that still doesn't stop me from improving my writing to the best of my potential and I'm always open to constructive criticism.

[Dragonfree]

That's why nobody reads stories anymore-- everyone's sick of bullshitting everything. If I 'told it as it was' I'd be banned, probably because I'd come off as insulting. That's why I don't read stories unless they're something other than Pokemon/Random Shitty New Anime, because they tend to have a little more promise than stories of little dumb**** critters-- or how someone just replaces characters from said anime and makes their "own" plot. I use the term "own" loosely, as it's normally a near direct rip of the original anime.
No offense... but that sounds to me like you haven't read much here in a very long time. I haven't seen an animé-copy here since... ever. The few real trainer fics that have been here have been very unique in some way or another. Well, admittedly the original From Rookie to Champion by ShinyMarill/Brit Chris was probably close enough, but you don't have to go further than to its own sequel to get out of the animé-likeness.

As for the "dumb**** critters", I fail to see what makes "dumb**** critters" into a worse subject of fiction than anything else. If it's good, it's good, and whether the characters are hobbits or Hitmonchan doesn't change that.

[mr_pikachu]

I'll admit, I've had the urge to make harsh comments when I've felt that, in my view, a writer wasn't living up to his or her full potential. In fact, on one occasion, on a day that I was highly frustrated with life in general, I acted on those urges in two separate fanfics. Only when I calmed down and reread the posts did I realize not only all the good I had missed in the chapters I had criticized, but also how pig-headed I had been. I'd completely missed the point of fanfiction. It's not to figure out who's the best writer on the forum. It's to help each other improve our skills, and to write better and better as we grow. Sometimes the points we have to make can be harsh. But as long as we deliver the message in a kind manner, we can avoid problems.

True, many readers, I've found, always seem to reply to chapters with comments like "Great chapter" or "Wow, I just love this fic!" and never with advice or criticism. Perhaps they are holding back the urge to criticize or maybe they don't see any problems in the first place. But making a writer feel bad enough to quit doesn't help, either. The key, I think, is to find a balance. After all, a writer must know where his or her flaws are in order to fix them. Holding back completely isn't the answer, since the writer can never improve in that situation. But emotionally upsetting comments don't help anyone, either. I'll always rue the day I lashed out, and almost lost a dear TPM friend because of it.

In the end, we all have our own level of writing skill, and our own potential. We can't reach our potential if we decide that we're not good enough to reach it and quit. But we can't do it if we don't know what needs work, either. I believe both sides in the debate can probably agree that the rule worth following, in this case, is "Think before you post."

[Iveechan]

I normally take harsh criticism badly. I don't know if it's because I'm too proud or I get offended easily and am overprotective. But after awhile of brooding, then I look my own story and realize the problems. I constantly go back and tweak stories be it advice from another or because I felt it wasn't good enough. However, I think that sometimes people may point out something that, to me, isn't important in a fic. Like many many many months ago when Darien dude read Guilty, he said that I used "He" and "His" too much in the first paragraph. But I actually did that on purpose because I didn't want to describe the being in the very beginning. It's a surprise. And on another board somebody said that I should put more description into Champ's thoughts. But Champ, being a Pokemon, is more of a feeler than a thinker. I think it's a bit hokey myself when in a fic somebody narrates their thoughts constantly. Which is why I don't normally like first person POV's though I have read good ones.

So yes, when you critique, be careful. What may be a big deal to you may not be to the author.

[Darien Shields]

Wow, the lesat veiled-veiled insult award goes to Iveechan, where she named the creator of the post while referring to him!

I stand by my criticism (I Remember), it wouldn't have hurt to say "the man" or "the shadowy figure" you know something like that. Mystery and pronouns do not go hand in hand. e.g.

"He lay the child down softly on the bed and then turned back to face her. She gave him a sceptical glance which was met with a sullen expression. Silently the pair left the room and he gently closed the door before falling back in line behind her."

in contrast to

"The grim man lay the child down softly on the bed and then turned back to face his mistress. She gave her accomplice a sceptical glance which was met with a sullen expression. Silently the pair left the room and he gently closed the door before falling back in line behind his silent companion."

{Note: I left one "she" in, because it was unnatural to start the sentance with another noun, and it would have implied that it was another woman}

See? All I have protrayed is the mood, and perhaps the relation between the two characters. It is still ripe with mystery. Some would argue more. In this way you can develope further mysteries than who your character is, i.e. in this case I personally would be curious as to the man's mood (grim), and so on. I realise that my own work (the paragraphs above) is quite fallable, and now that I think about it I can't remember the specifics of your own piece Iveechan, but your argument encurs this response.

[dratinihaunter13]

As an author, whatever is a big deal to the reader should be important. Obviously the author will be very biased about their own work. A reader's feedback, in all its honesty, is completely necessary. An author should read all of it, then choose what parts they want to use and what parts they want to ignore. If the author is offended by some of the honest constructive criticisms of the reader, it isn't the reader who has to change. Get used to brutal feedback and learn to use it, not feel threatened by it. You can usually tell what's good advice and what isn't.

Also, about using "He" and "his" too much in a paragraph: All right ya didn't want to describe the being too much in the very beginning. That doesn't mean the "he" and "his" surplus still isn't distracting. What it probably means is you must find a way to keep the being mysterious without overusing pronouns, or just forget the whole vague description in the first place. Readers sometimes like to know what the heck is going on. Relying on vagueness in your writing can get habitual, confusing, and insulting to your own talents as a writer. As for other people not feeling the same way at all about criticisms like this one, we've said it ourselves that many replies in this forum come off as thoughtless and sugar-coated. Be thankful for one honest reply, whether you use the advice in it or not.

I'd love to see more honest, unchecked constructive criticism in this forum, if it wasn't for those writers who can't take it.

[Heald]

I must scour the forum to find the standard of fics, and my opinion of them... Perhaps I am wrong, perhaps there are no trully dreadful fics here, perhaps not. But I'm on the warpath now, so if there's anything or anyone that deserves a swift, sharp kick in the backside (or even in the front side), I'll be there to provide it.Look, it is a Pokémon Message Board, what are you expecting, His Dark Materials?! If you have high standards, go scour fanfiction.net or, better yet, buy a book.

[Darien Shields]

Look, it is a Pokémon Message Board, what are you expecting, His Dark Materials?! If you have high standards, go scour fanfiction.net or, better yet, buy a book.


Pff. Northern Lights was great, but I read the Subtle Knife and loathed it, and I couldn't even get halfway through the Amber Spyglass before I thought "The hell with this." and stopped.

Sure we're writing pokemon fan fics- is it too much to ask that we right half decent pokemon fan fics?

[Iveechan]

I didn't want to give ANY indication on whatever the figure was besides the fact that it had claws and golden eyes. I don't care if it's right or wrong, but that's the way it is and I'm not changing it. It's ONE paragraph that's vague, that is all. And when I said "you" in my last sentence of my other psot, I was refering to everyone in general.

[Heald]

Fine then. Substitute that series with whatever book series you like (and if you don't like any books, I don't see what business you have criticising fanfics in the first place -_-;;)

Anyway, I didn't make much comment beforehand so here is my opinion:

People should criticise fanfics, but in a helpful and friendly manner. Pointing out any errors or saying how it can be improved encourages the writer, if done correctly. If you are like 'OMG IT R THE SUXXORS', not only are you being an asshat and quite unhelpful, the writer is just going to be discouraged.

[Dragonfree]

I'm a bit odd. Emotion-wise, I hate getting criticism, and if I disagree (such as if I were told that I used "he" too often) I often lash out some kind of an argument against it, like in this case that "he" is one of the words that you don't really notice enough to get really distracting because it's so common overall. Admittedly there were probably one too many "he"s in that first paragraph of Guilty by Design, but I thought Darien Shields' changes were completely unnecessary as I didn't find the pronouns in the first bit to be too many at all. Also, don't forget that the paragraph is told from Champ's point of view so "the figure" or something wouldn't quite go well there. Try opening a Harry Potter book. Harry is never referred to as "the boy" or anything else than "Harry" or "he" in the text, exactly for this reason - it doesn't fit in because it's from Harry's point of view. So, when Iveechan can't use "Champ", she has only "he" left. Probably she would have been able to get around it somehow, but if she wants to keep the scene as is, then tough, there have to be so and so many occasions of "he" in it.

OK, that was a really typical me-reaction when I disagree with criticism. When I agree, it's usually something about not describing this or that enough or this or that moment sounding forced, which is usually always what I noticed myself but couldn't figure out a proper way to get around.

But either way, I want to get criticism. I dont like it, but I want it, to improve and see some things I hadn't noticed before.

[Iveechan]

I think the only time I get kind of pessy at an author is when the fic is overly dull. Like when trainer fics start out with the main person picking out their clothes and eating breakfast... THAT'S SO BORING, I DON'T CARE! When writing, if it's boring to you, then it's going to be boring to read. And I do say that it's boring to the author. But a lot of the authors here are young and start off spur of the moment with little thought that a trainer fic is a big deal.

[mistysakura]

I think that when a fic has many errors, harsh criticism is needed, and as much as possible as can help the writer improve. However, all harsh criticism doesn't go down well, especially with the probably inexperienced author who is not used to it. It will be a major blow to thir self-esteem, and may stop them from writing more. This is a Pokemon message board, nothing too serious; I believe that we shouldn't be throwing bad fics out and leaving the good ones. Rather, we should encourage everyone to write.

But then, without harsh criticism, those inexperienced writers are never going to get better. What I usually do is take all my criticism, split it into n portions, and put one portion in reply to each chapter. I also try to find at least one thing that was remotely good about the chapter.

But then, I suppose I shouldn't be worrying about criticising too much...

[Chris 2.1]

I disagree with your first post, Darien. You shouldn't be harsh - it generally puts people off writing altogether, and makes you come across as a very bloated egoist. I remember my first fanfic wasn't criticed, but critiscized - people never said "well done for trying", it was "___ is bad, don't do __" etc.

I think you should rate a new fic with gentle critiscism. Come across as friendly, and the author will more likely respond to what you say and won't see your post as a mean of insulting them.

[Tainted]

No offense... but that sounds to me like you haven't read much here in a very long time. I haven't seen an animé-copy here since... ever. The few real trainer fics that have been here have been very unique in some way or another. Well, admittedly the original From Rookie to Champion by ShinyMarill/Brit Chris was probably close enough, but you don't have to go further than to its own sequel to get out of the animé-likeness.

As for the "dumb**** critters", I fail to see what makes "dumb**** critters" into a worse subject of fiction than anything else. If it's good, it's good, and whether the characters are hobbits or Hitmonchan doesn't change that.

No, I haven't read much pokemon-related lately because, well, I'm not interested in pokemon anymore. The recent Anime copies I've seen are the Yu-Gi-Oh fictions, although I'm not into Yu-Gi-Oh either, it was blatantly abundant that the story was a near direct rip of the anime, only substituting new characters, of which happened to be relatives of old ones.
The dumbass critters comment stands-- for one, humans are intellectually superior, and as another poster has already made a comment: they are pokemon, they don't even think in most stories, they're just there.

Now, I have seen the occasional story that uses pokemon as main characters, and does normally not contain human-interaction. These, for the most part, are done very well, as a human is basically substituted for a pokemon, having human traits and characteristics.

It was foolish of me to leave the obvious out of my post. By harsh criticism, I don't mean insults-- I don't mean "You should never write again, this is horrible, go away, I boned your mother last night." I mean really dissecting the whole story and breaking it down and pointing out nearly every last detail that you didn't like.
Although, this is very annoying for the writer (it has been done to me before) and you may feel like revolting against the reviewer, as a writer, it helps, and I know from experience. Actually, Mr_Pikachu here gave me some of the best advice and I considered it "harsh criticism." He did not once insult me, or my writing, although he did go VERY indepth in his criticism, and it helped me greatly.

Adieu,
Zak Hunter

[The Decapitated Mole]

I'm just glad nobody was too harsh with me when I first started writing, because now I'm good [well, at least better than I was] and I don't have any hard feelings against anyone because nobody really bitched about anything I wrote that much. WHOOO!!! But I can see how if I was as talented a writer as some of you people are, and someone came along with a piece of **** like Hiro was and started getting recognition and the like, you could get pissed off. Usually when I see someone that writes like a piece of ****, I say 'wow, dude, you write like a piece of ****.' and then I try to tell them exactly what it was that they did wrong. Not in a mean or harsh way, just brief and to the point [I know, it's hard to believe I can do anything that way, but it can happen!]. But that's only because I've seen it happen, with me and many others, that if you help someone enough, they'll turn out something decent eventually.

o_0
jimm

[PancaKe]

Constructive critisizm = very good. I'm not going to stop constructive critisizm, no matter how harsh. It's good for feedback and its just advice on how to fix up the bits of your fanfic. If the author doesn't wish to take it well - thats' their problem and they can deal with it.

But when you guys decide to leave the constructive out of "constructive critizism" I'll be angry. :mad2: Be as critical as you like, as long as your constructive critical. Otherwise then you'll have a problem, and you'll have to deal with me.

Be critical. Be harsh. Be constructive or be in trouble :D