Poll: 2vs2- A New Frontier? or a Nuclear Bomb Test Site? (for advanced players)

[Kari and Mewtwo]

Well, I noticed that alot, and I mean ALOT, of people have been battling 1vs1 in RS/FL, completely ignoring 2vs2 options. I hardly see any 2vs2 teams outside of randbats (NB) and 4p sharkbats (RSBot). Of course, there aren't any current standards in 2vs2 either.

Pros about 2vs2

No set standards, so everything is experimental and unpredictable
Blissskarm becomes almost useless since you can select a target
Something that works in 1vs1 might not be as useful in 2vs2, and vice-versa



Cons

Explosion teams are absurdly common, but are countered easily by ghosts & damp
Slaking becomes almost oober
Earthquake is also sort of common, especially something like a salamence/gyarados pairing.
Not too much original strategy


So whats your opinion on 2vs2? Is it a new frontier waiting to have a metagame developed? Or is it a Nuclear Test Site and the metagame will practically remain unchanged?

[Lee]

I know, not very fair, but you can do 2 vs. 1!

Ex: Rayquaza + Blaziken vs. Exploud + Magneton.

You could have Rayquaza and Blaziken attack Exploud or Magneton at once. Or Vice-versa.

[Kari and Mewtwo]

or have blaziken use earthquake, kill magneton while doing damage to exploud, and have rayquaza finish exploud off.

Another insane combo I've been experimenting with in 2vs2 is Wobbuffet + a perishsonger. You dont need a trap move, and wobby is almost unpredictable switchi-in, so you wont be able to switch to a roarer/whirlwinder at all. Meanwhile, the partner just uses perish song, and can switch out as if nothing happen, providing that wobbuffet can survive the 3 turns before it switches out once its perish count reaches 1. Ive had some success with it, but people REALLY hate Wobbuffet now more than ever.

[Rabid_Cow]

I think that it's totally worth a try. Definetally. I have come up with some insane combos and I think it adds more strategy to the game.

Endure + Reversal on a Blaziken w/an E-Quake partner. Nice.

Protecting partner + Teeter Dancer. Also Nice.

Those are just a few of my favs.

EDIT: Forgot about how Growl has become cool again. =)

[rinku]

I think it's a brave new world. Explosion is an issue, but isn't the damage shared among the targets, as with Surf or any other multi-hit move? In other words, many more pokémon will be able to survive it than in 1v1 (apart from such obvious measures as Ghost types and Protect). EQ is more easily countered as it isn't anywhere near as nasty and plenty of pokémon can shrug off or ignore a half-strength one.

[Kari and Mewtwo]

Moves that hit both opponents in 2vs2 have their base power halved (Like Surf, Heat Wave, etc)

Moves that hit everyone except the user retain their original base power (Like Earthquake, Explosion, etc)

EDIT: Another idea that could work would be Poisonpowder + Guts/Facade. The original strategy used Toxic, but we all know that Toxic doesn't revert into normal poison anymore, so Poisonpowder would work just as good. Combo with Swords Dancing Heracross/Ursaring with Earthquake for best results.

[Lee]

Earthquake affects everyone on the field except the user, so switch to a flying type after you use Earthquake.

[Kari and Mewtwo]

A few things Ive seen work in 2vs2 battles from my experience:

1.) Explosion + Choice Band + Ghost Partner/Protector

This is by far the cheapest and most common 2vs2 strat ive seen work. Of course, you could always carry around a ghost or a poke with protect just to counter it, or stop it altogether with the damp ability (Golduck, Poliwrath/toed, and Quagsire)

2.) Earthquake + Flyer/Levitate

Another simple easy to use combo thats also effective. There are several ways to counter this, which include using a flyer/levitator yourself, or the next strat...

3.) Double Intimidate

Good for starting off battles, its like using charm on both opponents. Physical sweepers are forced to switch if they ever hope to accomplish anything. Most common Double Intimidate combo is Salamence + Gyarados, which can also utilize the EQ/Flyer combo

4.) Wobbuffet + Perish Song

Normally Wobbuffet would be banned by vets, but i've annoyed countless number of idiots foolish enough to take on this strat. It could also work with Dugtrio, but duggy would need protect just to survive. Wobby on the other hand can just hang on with that massive HP. The easiest way to counter this is to just attack wobbuffet, then switch out ASAP once its dead, otherwise you lose 2 pokes. Soundproof also works.

5.) Slaking + Skill Swap

Another easy & effective combo. Can also utilize the EQ/Flyer/Levitate combo if the skill swapper happens to be something like Xatu (Claydol would lose Levitate once it SS's). Focusing all attacks on Slaking is the preferred counter.

6.) Poison + Guts + Facade (optional)

The original strategy involved Toxic, but we all know that toxic's damage increases. PoisonPowder would have the same effect, but not be as deadly. Preferred Pokemon to use this combo with are Swellow & Heracross, but there are others.

7.) Gyarados + LightningRod

This one is old as the hills, and Colosseum loves to abuse this one from what I've seen. Basically protects Gyarados from its main weakness: Electricity. The best LightningRodders to use in this case are Rhydon or Marowak, both of which utilize the EQ/Flyer combo as well. You'll have to take advantage of Gyarados's physical weakness to Rock if you ever hope to get rid of it, or focus SE moves on Rhydon/Marowak and then T-bolt gyarados to death.

8.) Shell Bell + multihit moves

Finally, a use for Shell Bell. Works best with Earthquake, since it retains its original base power, plus you'll be recovering HP 3 times if it hits the partner. I tested this with a Gyarados, and rather than recovering the usual 20 or so HP from leftovers, it restored close to 100 HP just by using EQ. This could also work with Calm Mind Suicune with Surf, but the lowered base power makes it worth using only on EQ.

[rinku]

Many of these strategies rely on type - what happens if the type is stolen?

Alakazam & Skill Swap could derail any combo based on Levitate. Kecleon can be turned into a Ghost or Flying type by a team-mate with the right
move (plenty of weak Ghost & Flying moves after all...). Kecleon's ability to Skill Swap Color Change can also screw up these kind of tricks (though it has to last long enough...)

They are also a tad predictable - Protect and off-screen moves go a long way to nullifying Explosion. Flyers and Levitiators tend to be Ice-vulnerable (both Lati@s, Flygon and Claydol for example), so Ice becomes v.v.nice.

[rinku]

Just had a thought... how scary is Gengar now? Immune to Explosion, *and* Earthquake *and* capable of learning Explosion itself...

[KholdStare]

There are a few more:

Endure + Explosion

Nidoqueen + Grumpig

[Kari and Mewtwo]

heh.

Endure + Explosion + Salac Berry + Reversal = Holy Hemmorrage Batman!

[Crazy]

You can't BAN a move if it is legal, I mean the explosion strategy works and it can be countered. I mean if you don't like how it works or its strategies then don't play it.

[rinku]

Can Snatch be used to steal Endure? That would be a nice counter-move if so...

Also, does Endure work vs successive attacks on the same turn?
(i.e. Voltorb explodes, but fails to kill both opponents, who then attack
Heracross.) Explosion/Endure/Reversal is also pretty much worthless vs Ghost.

General tactic for consideration - have both of your pokémon attack the slower of the two opponents (all other things being equal). Most of the
time you won't be able to counter the fast set-up, so you may as well concentrate on snuffing the slower follow-up. And in general you'll be better off eliminating one pokémon before it acts than eliminating one that has already acted and damaging another.

[Kari and Mewtwo]

Here's the interesting thing about Endure: If you get hit 3 times (both opponents and partner), you'll endure all 3 hits.

Anyways, after winning the first round of the FBMT (4 player version), I have another strat that sort of works.

9.) Jumpluff + Gengar

Basically useful as a cleaner technique. Have Gengar and Jumpluff use Mean Look and Sleep Powder on the same turn. A 1-turn sleep trap. It could also work against both opponents, but you just wont be able to put both to sleep if you're going to abide by the Sleep Clause. Once thats done, have Gengar use its attacks while Jumpluff Subs/Encores/LeechSeeds. This can get pretty annoying, especially in 4 player battles once one of the two opponents are eliminated.

[Iveechan]

This isn't an amazing strategy or anything, but how about a partner who uses Fake Out (Hariyama comes to mind) in order to protect the other partner who uses calm mind or sub or soemthing? They would attack the most dangerous looking opponent of course.

[Kari and Mewtwo]

Fake Out can work, definately.

I'd like to point out that in most cases, HydroPump/Waterfall > Surf in 2vs2, but Surf can be just as good with Rain/boost moves/etc, especially something like Kingdra or Suicune.

Heres a few more, most submitted by Mr. MasamuneXGP of the Netbattle staff:

10.) Follow Me + Pretty much anything

Use Togetic so you and your partner can escape Earthquake; Clefable isn't worth it. Max out Def and Sp.Def, and you've got yourself a center-of-attention fairy of DOOM. Whip out Togetic and Salamence/Gyrados/Dragonite to get a few free Dragon Dances, or just start taking apart your opponents team with a heavy-attacker and watch your opponents squirm. Just watch out for Jolteons. You should probably keep Togetic out of the lead spots so as to make sure all those Flier-killers are gone.

11.) Helping Hand

A QUITE underrated move. This move has the power to transform helper/nondamaging Pokemon like Umbreon into heavy attackers. Just use Helping Hand and your Ally's attack wall be 1.5x stronger, making one punch count for both Pokes. Use in conjunction with a fast and extremely powerful Pokemon (I use Jolteon myself) to maximize its effectiveness.

12.) Psych Up

This can be EXTREMELY deadly if used correctly. The idea is to power up a heavily-defended Pokemon, then bring in a Psych Upper to copy the stat boosts from your Ally. You can catch your opponents off guard, especially if you use a Pokemon like Claydoll or Dusclops that most people don't find very threatening to build up, then spring out Psych Up and watch their jaws drop.

13.) Rain Dance + Zapdos + Kingdra

I've been on the receiving end of this strat and let me tell you, it's quite painful. Rain Dance transforms Kingdra and Zapdos from mildly challenging to rampaging monsters of doom. Speed is VITAL in Doubles, so having a Swift Swim Kingdra outspeeding everything with a STABed and weather-boosted Surf that hits both enemies (as well is Ice Beaming the popular 4x-weak-to-Ice pokes) while the already-speedy Zapdos fries everything with STABed 100% accurate Thunder is just plain frightening.

14.) Sunny Day + Houndoom + Exeggutor

Basically the exact same strat as #13, but with Fire and Grass instead of Electric and Water. Use whichever best suits your team. However, #12 slightly better due to Zapdos's EQ Immunity.

15.) Imprison + Protect + Earthquake

A Dusclops with this combo can make lesser opponents break down and cry. Taking away the two most important 2v2 moves can cripple an opponent, especially if they're stupid enough to rely on Earthquake. Use Jolteon as an Ally for utter chaos. Use an Exploder as an Ally to turn their faces white. As for a fourth move for Dusclops, I'd use either Hidden Power for extra Imprisonment power or Will-o-wisp to make Dusclops more useful.

16.) Endure + Explosion/Earthquake + Salac Berry + Reversal = Holy Hemmorrage Batman!

Interesting thing I've seen with Endure in 2vs2 is that if all three attacks would all kill you at the same time, you'll endure all 3 of them. Pair that up with an earthquake from your partner and you should have a full-powered Reversal in no time. Only problems with this is that QuickAttack/MachPunch owns it, and if your partner uses EQ again, then you die. This is a good condiment for Exploders, as you'll be fast & ready to rumble after the A-bomb hits.

17.) Swagger/Flatter + Safeguard/PersimBerry/Owntempo

Similar to the old Outrage/Thrash/PetalDance + Safeguard combo back in GSC, but much deadlier. If used right, it makes things into sweepers, and anything that is already a sweeper becomes even more evil. If you're using safeguard, just have one of your pokes use it while theally uses Flatter/Swagger on you. Start sweeping, and keep using flatter/swagger as much as needed. PersimBerry for those that cant use safeguard, and OwnTempo for those that dont really need either. Imagine this on that Kingdra/Zappy/RD combo Masa just mentioned.

[phaedrus]

13.) Rain Dance + Zapdos + Kingdra

I've been on the receiving end of this strat and let me tell you, it's quite painful. Rain Dance transforms Kingdra and Zapdos from mildly challenging to rampaging monsters of doom. Speed is VITAL in Doubles, so having a Swift Swim Kingdra outspeeding everything with a STABed and weather-boosted Surf that hits both enemies (as well is Ice Beaming the popular 4x-weak-to-Ice pokes) while the already-speedy Zapdos fries everything with STABed 100% accurate Thunder is just plain frightening.

14.) Sunny Day + Houndoom + Exeggutor

Basically the exact same strat as #13, but with Fire and Grass instead of Electric and Water. Use whichever best suits your team. However, #12 slightly better due to Zapdos's EQ Immunity.

#12 is better, moreso because Fire is resistant to both Fire and Grass. Also, maybe what could happen is you use Calm-Mind Kyogre > Zappy. Sure, 00berness, but you save a spot on Kingdra, and Kyogre gets Calm-Mind and Thunder AND Icebeam. Double-Surf + Thunder+HP-Electric + Double-IceBeam + Dragonbreath+CalmMind = omgwtf.


17.) Swagger/Flatter + Safeguard/PersimBerry/Owntempo

Similar to the old Outrage/Thrash/PetalDance + Safeguard combo back in GSC, but much deadlier. If used right, it makes things into sweepers, and anything that is already a sweeper becomes even more evil. If you're using safeguard, just have one of your pokes use it while theally uses Flatter/Swagger on you. Start sweeping, and keep using flatter/swagger as much as needed. PersimBerry for those that cant use safeguard, and OwnTempo for those that dont really need either. Imagine this on that Kingdra/Zappy/RD combo Masa just mentioned.

The only reason why this works is because the Atk./Sp.Atk. goes before the confusion. ;)

[Chrisodeo]

So what you're saying is that a Wish/Baton Pass/Follow Me/Psych Up Togetic and a Growth/Giga Drain/Helping Hand/Endeavor Sunflora will destroy the 2vs2 meta? Woot. Looks like The GSC Pixies are getting an advanced makeover.

[Kari and Mewtwo]

Don't know so much about Sunflora, but yeah, Togetic has been making progress in 2vs2 from what i've seen. Togetic works beautifully with Gyarados/Salamence.

[15:52:56] <DarkBot> [NUMBER] 176 [NAME] TOGETIC [TYPES] NORMAL/FLYING - [TRAITS] HUSTLE (Trades accuracy for power.) or SERENE GRACE (Promotes added effects.) [GENDER MODIFIER] 31 (32/256 male,224/256 female) [WEIGHT] 3.2 kg
[15:52:56] <DarkBot> [PRIMARY-MAX STATS] HP: 251-314 - ATTACK: 116-179 - DEFENSE: 206-269 - SP. ATK: 196-259 - SP. DEF: 246-309 - SPEED: 116-179

Togetic's defenses aren't all that bad, actually. Immunity to Earthquake definately helps.

[15:55:00] <DarkBot> [NUMBER] 36 [NAME] CLEFABLE [TYPE] NORMAL - [TRAIT] CUTE CHARM (Infatuates on contact.) [GENDER MODIFIER] 191 (192/256 male,64/256 female) [WEIGHT] 40 kg
[15:55:01] <DarkBot> [PRIMARY-MAX STATS] HP: 331-394 - ATTACK: 176-239 - DEFENSE: 182-245 - SP. ATK: 206-269 - SP. DEF: 216-279 - SPEED: 156-219

Clefable's another nice choice for follow me. Its defenses aren't as high as togetic's but the 394 HP is definately nice.

[15:56:38] <DarkBot> [NUMBER] 162 [NAME] FURRET [TYPE] NORMAL - [TRAITS] GP(RUN AWAY) (Makes escaping easier.) or KEEN EYE (Prevents loss of accuracy.) [GENDER MODIFIER] 127 (128/256 male,128/256 female) [WEIGHT] 32.5 kg
[15:56:38] <DarkBot> [PRIMARY-MAX STATS] HP: 311-374 - ATTACK: 188-251 - DEFENSE: 164-227 - SP. ATK: 126-189 - SP. DEF: 146-209 - SPEED: 216-279

The only Advantage that Furret has over Togetic & Clefable is that it also learns Helping Hand. Its HP isnt all that bad, but the defenses are the lowest of the 3. Speed doesn't really matter since Helping Hand and Follow Me both strike first.

As for pokemon that can learn Helping Hand (Besides Furret):

Nidoqueen/King- These guys are more or less Earthquake users. If anything, THEY should be the ones recieving a Helping Hand.

Arcanine- The nice thing about Arcanine is that it gets Intimidate. He's also a sweeper, so he should be getting a helping hand. Ark9 also gets Heat Wave, which hits both opponents in 2vs2 for only 50 base (75 with STAB). Pair this up with a Helping Hand pokemon and/or Sunny day for best results.

Hitmonlee/Chan/Top- these guys have nice attack power, and can also learn Earthquake. Hitmontop also has Intimidate, which helps alot. Top is the only one with the highest defense of the three, so he can also double as a Helping Hand poke himself.

Vaporeon- This thing learns Surf, which could use a Helping Hand from someone else. The high HP also makes vappy usable as a Helping Hand poke

Jolteon- If only this thing wasn't weak to Earthquake. Its SA is pretty high, so its more of a sweeper than anything

Flareon- same as with Jolteon, but has higher attack

Jumpluff- Jumpluff can't do any real attacking, so Helping Hand is perfect. It gets Sleep Powder, Leech Seed, AND is earthquake immune. This is my prefered choice for a Helping Hand pokemon.

Espeon- Same as Jolteon

Umbreon- Now THIS poke is what i like. It's HP is higher than that of any of the other Eeveelutions besides Vaporeon, also has decent defenses, which makes this think a wall. It can survive several hits, learns both Rain Dance and Sunny Day, so it works good with Heat Wavers/Surfers. Another excellent choice for a Helping Hander.

Miltank- Miltank is a good support pokemon. Not only can it use Helping Hand, it also gets Heal Bell, Milk Drink, AND learns Earthquake.

Plusle/Minun- Not worth it. These guys will double each other's SA, but thats about all they can do.

Breloom- More or less a sweeper, but it also learns Spore. This could be a decent HH poke.

Delcatty- Its defenses aren't all that great, but it learns Charm, which can screw up Earthquakers badly. Also learns Thunderwave to make up for its speed, and gets Heal Bell.

Hariyama- Not exactly what I'd call a Helping Hand pokemon, but it could get the job done. The nice thing about this Poke is that it learns Knock Off. This poke also has the attack to use Earthquake effectively.

Volbeat/Illumise- Resistant to Earthquake, which is a plus.

Latias/Latios- If only these guys weren't claused/banned, they would actually be decent Helping Handers. Both have excellent SA and SD stats, learn Recover, are immune to Earthquake, Latias gets Charm, both can learn Surf and Calm Mind, have access to both Light Screen AND Reflect, AND Latios can double as a Dragon Dancing Earthquaker. Although these guys are great, I suggest you stay away from them unless you want to be criticized for using potential 00bers.

Jirachi- Defenses aren't all that bad. Not really Helping Hand material, imo.

[MikeAeroMaster]

I don't mind 2 on 2, cept just make sure explosion is out of the question. It too n00bish.

[Xenesis]

I don't mind 2 on 2, cept just make sure explosion is out of the question. It too n00bish.

How is it n00bish? It's a powerful tactic, that requires a lot of work to make work properly.

true n00bs probably couldn't use it properly at all.

[Chrisodeo]

I've lately been making a killing with a Jirachi+RegiRock starter pair. Sure they're both legends, cheap blah blah, but when someone busts out a Skarm+Bliss starter pair, you still have trouble taking it out. Not to mention they're both weak to EQ.

I've also determined that Helping Hand and Explosion are t3h g00d. A Helping-Handed Explosion from a max-attack Regirock will deal at least 90% damage to the accepted Skarm set. In other words, When facing a HH'd Exploder, run. Run like hell. The good side to facing this is that the other pokemon is harmed as well. And unless it's Jirachi (only HH-er resistant to boom), they've taken out two of theirs to take out two of yours. So Exlosion is fair and symmetrical. A good enough sweeper and/or some good Protect/switching and they'll take out their team for you.

Another good strat I've seen in double battles is Fish (Rest/Sleep Talk/Horn Drill/Sheer Cold or Fissure) paired with annoyance. The annoyer concentrates on one poke, while the Fish set takes on the other. If you run up against something one can't deal with, switch targets.

Then there's always the Skill Swap Slaking thing. Basically, you use a fast Skill Swapper paired with Slaking to give the Big Ape a useful trait, and chain Truant onto an opponent. From there just keep up the ownage.

[MikeAeroMaster]

How is it n00bish? It's a powerful tactic, that requires a lot of work to make work properly.

true n00bs probably couldn't use it properly at all.

Still, it's rather cheap. Hense the n00bish in it.

[Crazy]

It isn't cheap at all. It is a tactic that works. You can't ban every powerful tactic. I mean it is very easy to counter. So it isn't easy to set up and it can be easily countered how is that n00bish?

[Kari and Mewtwo]

Don't mind him. He's just pissed off at the time I completely obliterated him with an Explosion tactic, and boy was he pissed.

As for the Jirachi/Regirock combo, I would suggest Metagross instead of Regirock, only because Metagross's max attack with personality is 405. Regirock's is only 328. If you're going to go with an exploder, Metagross is your best deal.

On a side note, Explosion isn't too hard to deal with. Ghosts & Protect seem to screw them over, as do Pokemon with the Damp Ability. Quagsire can pretty much rape both Jirachi and Regirock/Metagross with Earthquake. Double intimidate also works as long as the exploder ISN'T Regirock or Metagross, seeing as they have the Clear Body trait.

[Subliminal Seranade]

I don't know much about 2 VS 2 battle but I think I just thought of something. What if one pokemon had Sweet Scent and another had a OHKO move like Sheer Cold. The pokemon could be:

Vileplume@Lefties
Personality: Calm
Sweet Scent
Moonlight
Razor Leaf / Sludge Bomb
Stun Spore / Toxic


*Lapras@Brightpowder
Personality: Ummm...
Rest
Sleep Talk
Sheer Cold
Horn Drill
(Is this moveset possible? if not then... :oh: )

Would Sweet Scent help the OHKO moves hit?

[Xenesis]

Sweet Scent most definitely would help OHKO moves hit. At 6 uses, your chance to hit is 300% (that's a 90 (O.o)% hitrate for OHKO moves)

Still, 2 uses would definitely help. Also, IIRC, it works on BOTH opposing team members.

Mm...that's not a bad idea really. You just need to worry about switching.

[Poryhedron]

And Hazers, and Clear Body, and Sturdy...

[Kari and Mewtwo]

Sweet Scent wouldnt be bad.

Growl also wouldnt be that bad, since it affects both opponents.

[phaedrus]

Sweet Scent wouldnt be bad.

Growl also wouldnt be that bad, since it affects both opponents.

Growling Blisseys... :confused:

It'd be a 1-turn double intimidate if you had two growlers...

[Silent Dragonfly]

I thought of this stratergy:
Switch in when your partner uses Hyper Beam/Element Beam, then use Fake Out while they recharge.

[Kari and Mewtwo]

Actually, that works. Only problem is then you have to worry about the other opponent, but at least they cant gang up on the Hyper Beamer.