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Ultimate Charizard
9th August 2004, 02:09 PM
Zoids - ED, or Egineered Destruction is going to be a crossover from Zoids and an old RPG of my own. This is not the Same Zoids your used to. They have been created purely military style with no Zoidian legends, no Ultimate X's and NO ORGANOIDS!. However you can use the Existing Zoids as coincedentally they are the types that the Military have developed. One or two Original designs may be allowed but you need to have them ok'd by me. And if everyone tries to sign up with something original ill ban them all.

Plot
----

In the future the human race will attain a level of advancement far beyond that of today. After massive leaps in the technological and scientific fields man became a species devoted to surpassing themselves. With this desire inevitably came wars. Nations battled over the best technologies, each developing new and better weapons. The technological nations made more powerful and destructive weapons while the scientific nations began researching genetics and mutations.

Inevitably this all came to a head. The Great War broke out in 3045. By 3050 the human race was in tatters. The better the prize the more extreme the force used to attain them. Ironically it was an old technology that finally sealed man’s fate. Two nations resorted to reviving nuclear technology. One used it for mutation, the other for good old fashioned explosives. When these two forces met it was catastrophic. Not so much from the fighting, but the aftermath.
When the smoke had cleared reports came in of cities being overrun, populations disappearing and huge organic structures popping up. Any attempt at approaching these structures was a sure fire way to lose a research team. As these occurrences spread, radiating out with ground zero of the Great War at its centre the world was faced with a new threat. As more and more cities were ‘blitzed’ as it had been labelled, the many nations decided that working together would be the only way to find out and solve what was going on.
Using the best soldiers and researchers they had they set out to stop this mysterious threat.

To cut a long story short, they failed.

In the year 3070, twenty years after the Great War. Humanity had become an endangered species. What was left now lived nomadic lives, moving from place to place in an effort to evade extinction. Some were slowly picked off or decimated by the mysterious foe, others were attacked by other humans who had resorted to piracy to survive. Those that were lucky, the people of the technologically advanced nations took refuge in armoured military bases. It was from these bases that man decided to fight back. It took time and men but eventually they discovered the identity of the enemy, a mutated race of creatures, powerful giants that seemed to have one goal, to eat. If it could be chewed and broken down then it was food. Plants, Rocks, Metal even humans were nothing but snacks. The organic structures that had dominated the skylines of the worlds cities were nests for these beasts, each resembling some sort of termite hill it matched the insect like appearance of the creatures, named as Terra's. They also operated as insects, following a single minded goal almost like machines. With armoured hides and incredible strength they seemed invincible.
Over time the humans had developed ways to defend themselves however these creatures also adapted. They seemed to grow larger and stronger, as if gaining power as humanity weakened. The most effective form of combat prooved to be Mobile Assault Platforms. An old weapon scrapped from the earlier wars they were Adaptable walking mechs equipped with Multiple weapons.
The models that were salvaged had flaws however. The heavily armoured ones were too slow and the faster ones didnt have the firepower needed. The original technology was over 200 years old however. There now existed the means to improve them, and as efforts were made the Zoids were born.
Massive Mobile Platforms with designs based on powerfull Animals long extinct, Capable of not only Fighting Terra's but in some cases hand to hand physical combat.
Though heavily outnumbered the Zoids were now Mankinds last chance.
Everything had been given to create them but at least without resources, and without ideas, at least Minkind had Hope.

Terra's

There are many species of Terra although only 6 have been identified. Although very different all Terra share some traits. They all seem to follow the commands of their nest, without question and with deadly efficiency. They all have the same weakspot however. The only true way to kill a Terra is to destroy its brain, this is usually very heavily protected with thick layers of armour. Destroying its body beyond its healing capabilities is also an option although much less efficient. All Terra can spray a white/grey foam that quickly hardns into a brown fossilized Resin. Any human caught with this spray becomes cocooned and beyond help. Theyre fate is in the belly of the next Terra that gets hungry.

Stumpy - Squat, four legged Terra, about the size of a Command Wolf resembles a cross between a boar and a beetle. Tough armour but can be cracked with heavy fire. One of the quicker species of Terra. Its main weapons are its blade like mandibles.

Worm - Long snake like Terra that can burrow quickly underground. Its entire body is covered in a rock like armour with a blade like tail edge. It has razor sharp mandibles for slicing up prey. The most heavily armed Terra. Think along the Lines of Onix with more viscious blades etc

Brute - This is a large Terra, can smash through lightly armoured walls with its sheer physical strength. It can also burrow amazingly fast for something its size. About as tall as an Iron Kong but has the Bulky, muscular beetle like Body behind it.

Buzzer - A flying Terra, uses blade like mandibles and forelegs. Resembles a cross between a dragonfly and a Mosquito. Comparitively small, only about the size of a large Bear. Something like the standard Grunt bugs in Starship Troopers.

Twinhorn - A slug like Terra, the lightest armoured it can be penetrated by the weakest of weapons however only a shot to its weak spot can stop it. It grasps at prey with long jelly like tendrils and absorb it into its skin. Seems to have a head at each end so finding the true soft spot is difficult. Just a little shorter than a brute but slower with less mass behind it. Indeed its whole body is like a soft jelly mass.

Blader - A large Mantis like Terra, rarely ventures outside the nest it is a defence Terra. It will attack and dismember any intruder. One of the most lethal terra it is fast, strong, heavily armed and scarily efficient. This one is roughly the size of a GenoBreaker but much more fast and agile.

Signup

A couple of points first off. In this time population is key....The human race is endangerd and the military will not throw away extra men to save one. If a man loses the use of a leg in a fight and slows the group down, or perhaps become trapped in his zoid he is a danger to them all and he is left for dead. Sympathy doesnt carry well among the Marine commanders who see their soldiers as statistics and numbers however emotions still may sneak in with the ones doing the Dieing.

Name -
Age -
Sex -
Looks -
History -
Personality - Remember uve been raised by the military if your under 40 and wont remember the time before the terra.
Zoid - Pick from the what you know...try and stay Standard if u can.
Weapons - Standard if u want but u can add a couple of little surprises if u like
Other -

Some previously banned Zoids like Liger 0 and Geno Breaker will be allowed but take into account these Zoids are pure Military Machines not special Living mechanoids so they wont be overly powerfull. And also These Terra's are immensely powerfull. A dozen or so can overrun an Entire City so i dont wanna see anyone Cutting through anything other than a Stumpy with anything that even comes close to Easy.

NightBlaze
9th August 2004, 03:24 PM
Name - Hiro White
Age - 20
Sex - Male
Looks - Hiro stands at exactly 6 feet tall with a pretty athletic build and his skin is just slightly tanned. Hiro has very dark brown eyes and very short light brown hair which he usually does not style. Hiro wears a black T-shirt and over it he wears a dark red jacket. He wears slightly baggy black cargo jeans and black tennis shoes. Around his neck he wears a sliver necklace, he does not know where or when he recieved it, but it is important to him, he tucks it under his t-shirt so that it is hidden from view.
Personality - Hiro is a quiet person who usually keeps to himself, however when he needs to he will talk to people. When you first meet him he will be pretty shy and probably wont say much, but after time, he will open up a little more to the person. When Hiro does talk he likes to joke around a little but, knows when to get serious. On the battlefield, he becomes extremly serious, carefully examining everything, and making sure he wont get himself caught off guard. Hiro has excellent hand-eye cordination and it shows when he battles. During battle, he tends not to make plans as his almost never
work, but he can and will follow plans made by other people.
History: Hiro was raised by both his father and his mother untill about the age of 9. One day Hiros town was attacked by the Terra, Hiros father went out to try and stop them with the rest of the men in the village and they were all slaughtered. Hiro and his mother both fled to another town where they started life over again, it took Hiro a few years to get over his fathers death completely.
Hiro was drafted into the military as well. He trained in the Military for years, and eventully, he became a zoid pilot, and not a bad one at that. He also learned a little about hand to hand combat, just incase.
Zoid - Shadow Fox
Weapons - Equipped with an AZ-70mm Laser Vulcan Gun (able to shoot at many sharp angles), AZ-90mm Electromagnetic net gun, Strike Laser Claw, a smoke screen discharger, and a multi censor array. Very fast, and Highly agile. Hiros Shadow Fox is made to be extremely silent, when the zoid moves it makes little to no sound, it can easily sneak up on its opponents or get through areas undetected.
Other - Picture of the Shadow Fox at
http://www.zoidsunofficial.coolfreepages.com/sf-4.htm

Outlaw JT
9th August 2004, 04:15 PM
Name - Goner(his real name was lost when he was 6 years old)
Age - 19
Sex - male
Looks - When standing at full height Goner is about 6'2" tall. He appears much shorter than this as his back is always arched and he stays low to the ground like an animal cautiously scanning its surroundings or preparing to pounce. He has long dirty and unkept red hair and he has some barely noticeable stubble on his face. It looks almost as if he hasn't had a haircut or a shave his entire young life. His body is very thin yet wiry. He doesn't look it but he is much stronger than his appearance would indicate. He wears nothing but a very torn up and tattered pair of black pants that are actually too big for him. They are tied to his waist by some hand made rope fashioned from the stripping of a pine tree. His skin is a smooth light tan although it is impossible to see as it is also covered in dirt. It looks almost as if Goner hadn't bathed in months. Goner's skin is also covered in small nicks and scars. He wears a faded dogtag that says "Colonel Justin Miller 000872451 code- Destiny"
Personality - erratic......Goner is unique and only his behavior and history will be able to explain his personality.
History - Before Goner was born, his family lived at Fort McConnell (a well known military research facility that was supposedly working on a toxin that would be lethal to Terra's); where his father was a high ranking and well respected military officer. Only two months after he was conceived, Fort McConnell was attacked and overrun by Terra's. Most of the people were wiped out but his family and a couple of others survived and met up with a wandering group of nomads who were kind enough to take them in. It was into this group of nomads that Goner was born. He was given a full name but there is no one left alive who knew it. He was raised with his older brother(whom was already 12 when Goner was born) in the ways of the nomads. They were taught how to forage and stay hidden as much as anyone could from the terra's. When Goner was 5 though the terra's caught up with the nomads and attacked their ever moving camp. Goner's brother as well as five of the other teenagers were on the edge of camp and managed to escape but not before Goner witnessed his parents being slaughtered by a buzzer. Due to the shock of it Goner lost the ability to talk for quite awhile. The only thing they had left now of their parents was their fathers dogtag which Goner's brother wore. His brother and the other teenagers kept on living as they had been taught to among the nomads. Days passed into months passed into a year. It wasn't until his sixth birthday that Goner finally managed to start talking again. He had finally gotten accustomed to his new life without his parents. His brother was very good at taking care of him. Unfortunately fate was not yet finished with him. One day while they were hunting for food they stumbled upon what they thought to be a dead buzzer. Goner wouldn't go anywhere near it but the others went to examine it more closely. It had been wounded by something and was covered in its own blood. They figured it would make some great armor for them and it's mandibles would make great weapons so they walked right up to it to start dismantling it. Sadly, the creature was not dead and is they got right next to it it sprung to life. It decapitated two of the teenagers in a heartbeat. One more was impaled through the chest as he tried to run. Goner's brother and the other two picked up their crude spears and some rocks and tried to fight it. It lasted only a minute but when it was over the creature was dead along with everyone but Goner and his brother. Goner watched on in horror as his brother lay there next to the dead creature and their friends, badly wounded and bleeding. Goner went to his brothers side and clutched him tightly in his small lap. His brothers blood soaked into all of his clothing. As his brother lie there bleeding to death he looked up into Goner's eyes and said, "I'm not gonna....you...you'll need to be on your own now Josh. I.....I'm a....goner........" His brothers eyes slid shut and he sat there, rocking in place. The last word he heard his brother say kept repeating in his mind over and over as he tried to understand what was happening. Since then the only thing he has been able to remember was that the last thing his brother called him was Goner so that became his name. He took their fathers dogtag from his brothers neck and put it on himself. He continued to sit there for hours. When he finally did snap out of it though he proceeded to do his best to tear the dead buzzer apart. As a reminder of the evil thing that had claimed both his parents and his brother, he took with him one of the buzzers long blade like arms(much like that of a praying mantis). Over time he fashioned it into a sword with about a three foot long blade with a foot long handle(similar to a katana). He has been surviving on his own in the wild since he saw his brother die 13 years ago. He has lost all knowledge of the human world he once belonged to. Somewhere deep inside he remembers how to speak but for now all he knows are a few key words and phrazes.
Zoid- n/a He believes the zoids to be ghosts of dead terra's....or rather terra's that were born without souls.
Weapons - he has a crudely made but effective spear he only carries when he is hunting but his real weapon is the blade fashioned from the limb of the buzzer that killed his brother
Other - He is a survivor and he's gotten very tough over the years. He may look weak and malnourished but he is quite strong and extremely agile. No one truly believes his strengths until they are able to witness them personally. He seems to be able to sense the presence of Terra's and has the strange ability to stay hidden from them even in plain sight. So long as he doesn't make eye contact the Terra's cant's seem to find him. Of course, that doesn't stop them from randomly trampling over him if he's not careful.

Ultimate Charizard
9th August 2004, 05:17 PM
Oh yeah...guess i need to sign up too.

Name - Gavin Wynder
Age - 25
Sex - Male
Looks - 6ft 3, Short Brown hair, blue eyes. Average build. Wears a Black t-shirt with blue jeans and Black fingerless golves.
History - Grew up like pretty much everyone else. Raised to be able to take care of himself and proficient with most weapons. Automatically drafted into the military just like everyone else, after all if you werent doing something to help mankind your a waste of resources.
Personality - Happy kinda guy generally. Stands by his friends and has even got in trouble for goin back for 'lost causes'. Will operate in support but doesnt like to babysit though and despises Escort missions. If they cant defend themselves they shouldnt be out there.
Zoid - Gonna go for a Standard Blade Liger
Weapons - Shield, Strike Laser Claw, Blades, Shock Cannon and Blade Guns. Has been experimenting with new weapons lately too.
Other - Kills other

Bulbasaur4
10th August 2004, 11:21 AM
Name - Faey Vincent
Age - 21
Sex - Female
Looks - Stands about 5'8, with a tall yet slender build that has grown quite athletic from the horrific events of the Terras. Her complexion is clean but armed with a slight tan from being out on guard duty a lot. Her hair is a light brown, intermixed with several different shades and tones of blonde and even lighter browns. Her eyes are usually spirited light, crystallic-water-like blue color. She usually wears black pants that are a bit more movable than jeans but yet are thick and durrable like the jean material. Her top is a white, tight sleeveless shirt and she likes to copy Gav and wear black fingerless gloves. ^^ (if that's alright).
History - Born into everything like everyone else. However, her family had a long line of extremely bright and useful scientific backgrounds. With this in mind, she was taught heavily as a young girl all the way up until she was drafted into the military. By that time, because of her rigorous school teaching she was extremely bright. With this in mind, the military still trained her but also had her doing research and engineering. Because of this, she soon designed many zoids for the military. Many of them proved quite useful, and those designed by her are marked with the logo FV. Her own zoid is by her own design. Soon after designing her own zoid, her parents were killed in a Terra attack and she was moved to a different base.
Personality - Very calm and collected. She smiles a lot, but after a while a person who knows her well knows the smiles are real. She lost in her own world, and craving for some thing new with out pain. The only time it seems she's truely happy is when she's with some thing she loves, like her Zoid. Zoid - Stryke Wolf/Gryphon type Zoid. It's body is basically that of a wolf, except with added powerful wings and the tail feathers of an Eagle-type bot. Also, instead of the regular forelegs of a wolf, it is the talons of an Eagle as well. The body is a little bit longer and lighter than the average wolf-like Zoids as well, and with a leaner muzzle. The armor of the wolven components are smooth and metallic, being a deep silver in color, with occasional black-stripe markings upon the legs and face.The feather-designed parts (such as wings and tail feathers) are made out of a sharper metal, with a little jaged design and the color appearance seems golden. The talons as well are made out of gold for the top color, but the bladed-edges of the 'claws' ofo the zoid are a silver/white metallic color. The piloting center is in the head, behind the eyes.
Weapons - Strike Laser Claw (front talons)
Ion Thrusters(lower base of each wing)
Air to Air Missle Racks : 4 (located in the upper body, able to protrude above)
Air to Ground Missle Racks: 4 (located in lower body, able to protrude below)
Vulcan Cannons: (located one on each front shoulder)
Point Defense Turret (located on tail)
Reinforced Strike Wings - (The wings are reinforced, and have Energy blades along the leading edges (wing tips) to strike/cut, with out causing damage to the wings, even at high altitudes/speeds.)

Other - Just used my old zoidy.

Perfect Chaos
10th August 2004, 12:38 PM
Name: Sean Kishore
Age: 19
Gender: Male
Looks: About 6'1, jet black hair that's always spiked up, dark brown eyes. Has a deep natural tan skin coloring with a muscular body (not bodybuilder, but like toned). Normally wears a faded navy tanktop with a dark red collared shirt over it and left unbuttoned and the back usually just flares out a bit in the wind and baggy black jeans with black boots that go under the jeans. Also wears black fingerless gloves (it's an orthodox style, what can I say :D) and has a silver "hoop earring on his left ear. Also wears a ragged black "thread" with silver pendent around his neck.
History: Was born to a poor family whose only earned enough to survive as his father was a "top" mechanic with the military in Zoids. He learned most of what he knows from his father and the rest from the military themselves when they took him in. He's a great pilot but prefers more to tinker around with Zoids.
Personality: Although he has gone through tough times, he remains cheerful and brave and optimistic all the time. He knows that times are always tough, but always firmly believes that there's a way out of them. A good guy to have around in battle too.
Zoid: Diablo Tiger (http://www3.hlj.com/junetoys/pictures/img_1892.html) (only the areas that are purple are black instead and the other areas that were normally black are red)
Weapons:
Energy Blades (located on his sides)
Ion Boosters (smaller than the version that Jager has and it's hidden into along his shoulders/back)
Medium Cannon Gun (120mm) (two located on the back, side-by-side)
Strike Laser Claw
Other: Has a bit of a rivalry with Faey (maybe more?) [if OK with you Kalah]

-$∑@π

Bulbasaur4
10th August 2004, 04:43 PM
^^ Rivalry sounds alright to me!!

Faey: Oh... a rivalry... sounds... so petty. *fake smile*
>>; I should have gone with the real hardcore girl instead... oh wait, Faey's slightly that way.
Faey: I am?
! Yes you are.. when you fight the bugs?
Faey: I don't... like the bugs...
*slaps self*

Mystic_clown
11th August 2004, 06:05 PM
Name – Rasputin Nero
Age - 27
Sex - Male
Looks – He’s got silver hair which barely reaches his shoulders and cold blue eyes. He’s got an impressive build and a healthy tan. He wears a black shirt, a red trench coat, slightly baggy brown pants, black boots with red trim and black, fingerless gloves with rhinestones on the knuckles. He’s quite handsome, which makes most women want him.
History – He has been raised by the military his whole life and doesn’t really know what it is like to be loved. He’s had to follow orders his whole life and has learned that his only purpose at life is to defeat the Terra. As a result, he’s barely got a life of his own, but he’s one of the most obedient soldiers in the marines. For most of his career, he piloted a Rev Raptor, but during a battle against the Terra, Rasputin’s zoid was destroyed and he was left for dead. While he was heading back towards the nearest base, he came across the remains of a Genobreaker. Since it was in good condition, he had the Genobreaker repaired and it became his new zoid. He’s a high-ranking soldier who can always be counted on to get a job done.
Personality – He’s highly obedient and fears nothing, not even the Terra. He doesn’t have a sense of humour and doesn’t know much about anything outside the military. He believes that his only purpose is to fight the Terra
Zoid - Genobreaker
Weapons -
-Charged Particle Cannon (mounted in mouth)
-Vulcan Cannons (mounted on sides)
-Ground to Air Missiles (mounted in back)
-Grapling Claws (located on arms)
-Charged Aprticle Thrusters (located on feet)
-Shield
-Atomic Particle Cannon: An experimental charged particle cannon that Rasputin is testing. It's twice as powerful as hte charged particle cannon. However, it causes Rasputin's zoid to overheat. Also mounted in mouth.
Other -

Outlaw JT
19th August 2004, 01:39 AM
Happy now Gav? I'm signing up with a pilot.

Name - Sergeant Marshall Grant
Age - 23
Sex - male
Looks - 6'0"
History - Just like everyone else he was raised military. Unlike everyone else, his father was a deserter. During a recon mission when Marshall was 5, his father went AWOL. The men who served with him said Marshall's father told them he was sick of military rule and abandoned his zoid mid-mission. Since then, the Grant family has been severely disliked. As he grew older and began his training, it was discovered that Marshall was an unbelievable marksman. He scored higher than all of the bases sniping pilots. Once he was old enough to pilot he was assigned the bases premier long range zoid, the Snipe Liger. Not only did this make many soldiers jealous of his special treatment but most soldiers grew to hate him even more because he is always on the rear lines in battle while they were thrown into the grinder. It didn't matter to most of them that he was more useful back there. He is severely disliked around base and many people try to find ways to pick on him. He's become a very good fighter through experience (countless soldiers have picked fights with him over the years).
Personality - He's very distant and quiet. He keeps to himself mostly, only making minor friendships with people like mechanics and janitors. He has a strong sense of humor that tends to get him in trouble when he stands up for himself. He follows his orders without question, though internally he questions the motivation of those giving them.
Zoid - Snipe Liger (one of mankinds most formidable long range zoids. a skilled pilot could pit an ace at 12 miles with the two sniper cannons. having no close range weaponry other than the shield and claws/fangs it can do only minimal damage to an armored terra up close. At best it could fend off a terra up close till help could arrive but the pilot would be better served trying to outmaneuver and outrun should they become engaged in a close-quarters battle)
Weapons -
144mm sniper cannon (back-mounted, must be unfolded from the back to fire, completely ineffective while zoid is in motion)
8 shot mortar cannons in each shoulder(4 in all for 32 total shots)
100mm guns on each side
80mm mini sniper underneath (2/3 the range of the main sniper cannon but slightly more precise)
energy shield (not as powerful as a true shield liger's but still fairly effective)
hardened alloy claws and fangs (the only close range weapons available to it, used primarily for climbing rough terrain to position the zoid for targeting)
Other - he is always looking for an opportunity to prove he's not the coward most soldiers claim him to be because of his positioning at the rear of any engagement.

Mew Master
19th August 2004, 04:24 PM
Neeto... this one might last longer than the last attempt.

Name -Dennis D. Roth (Known as Denny by others)
Age -19
Sex -Male
Looks -He stands about 6'4" with a large build. There is a clear lens over his right eye that has several other features such as infa-red, night-vision, zoom, and other such features. Shoulder-length hair that he keeps tied up in a tail when he wears his helmet for his Zoid. Denny's civilian attire revolves around a black trench coat and metal bracers on his arms, a belt with several pouches holding various technological advances. His pants are gray cargo pants that are tucked into military boots. The marine outfit resembles an orange and black body suit and helmet that resembles the markings of his Zoid.
History -Denny was raised on base by his mother. His father had been an accomplished hero in pushing back the Terra when they first appeared. However his father didn't make it back from his last mission, almost no one from the original force had. Denny was raised without a father for all his life. As time when on he was enrolled in the base’s military tactics program and soon became very formidable in the melee simulators. Graduating in the top 10% of his class, he was commissioned and requisitioned his own Mobile Assault Platform. He was lucky, a new model was off the assembly lines, with enough speed and strength to be a formidable opponent in battle. Thus he was given the new Raptor-Zoid Talon, a MAP with a new variation of the Blade Liger’s Energy Blades.
Personality - Despite his military upbringing, he has a fairly cheerful and optimistic personality when not in the cockpit of his Zoid. That is when his personality seems to turn a 180 and he cares nothing for his comrades, only the completion of their objective.
Zoid - Talon (Please? Please? Please? Pllleeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaasssse?????)
Weapons - Wrist-mounted Laser Gattling Guns (Light) X2 (on each wrist, hidden under the blue rectangles.
Rotating Twin Ion Boosters (On back, allow for quick turns and counter-attacks)
Fire System: An energy system similar to the Blade Liger’s. Energy collects in a special container behind the cockpit, the heat generated by the Zoid’s basic performance is collected and contained, magnified and redirected to the Claws, Talons, and Mouth of Talon. The energy causes the sensation of all out heat on the target. Due to the intense heat formed by this system, the actual activation and use can only last for a few minutes at a time or else the Zoid’s joints will burn out and Talon will only be a pile of spare parts.
Other - Denny is known among the base as the Fastest Land Pilot, he’s also known for being friendly although as a rookie some of his superiors aren’t that warm towards him.

Later!

Ultimate Charizard
19th August 2004, 06:49 PM
All accepted and ill be looking to start this Shortly.

I will however ask Mystic Clown to rethink the Atomic Particle Cannon. Its atomic weapons that caused the whole Terra mess, dont think theyd risk making it worse would they.