Defenses (Shuckle vs Wailord)

[Runpapa]

Okay, I need your general opinion on the matter. What proves more the stronger pertaining to defense stats, Hp or Df/SDf?

Shuckle possesses piss-poor Hp, but his Df/SDf is booming. This goes opposite for Wailord (not regarding approximate calculations/numbers here, mind you).

NOTE: I don't care for these particular Pokemon (well, Shuckle, maybe). They are simply examples to raise a subject.

[Mr.E]

What proves more the stronger pertaining to defense stats, Hp or Df/SDf?

Def/SpD, until you get around 200 in the stat. After that defense points normally reduce damage by 1 at best, and sometimes make no difference at all. Hence, HP becomes a larger factor at that level and protects against both physical and special attacks. It also may add to Leftovers recovery and aids against the rare set damage attack. However, there are times where you want extreme defenses (either in place of or alongside HP EVs), and the higher defense will also factor in against attack-boosted opponents. You only reduce damage by 1 for every 3-4 stat points when you get up in the 300's in Def/SpD, but that helps like the lower levels if you're up against a 'Zam with 3 Calm Minds up or something. ;/

[master jao]

In my opinion, both defense and Hp have to be taken into account.

A pokemon with high HP but low defense will loose a certain amount of Hp in %.
A pokemon with Low Hp but High defense will loose less Hp, but has it has less, there's a bigger loss in % (necessarely higher? I don't think so).

In my opinion, to determine wether a pokemon has a great defense or not, it would be something like (HP+Df+DF sp)/3.
The average of three values (or only two if you only want to look at df or DFsp) is the best way to determine, if a pokemon is good at defense generally speaking. perhaps some coefficients may enter that, wether the pokmon is more weak to att or att sp...

That's the way I see it at least.

[[McGraw]]

MrE is correct, but that is merely for general defense i.e. against both physical and special attacks.

When trying to defend only against one or the other, the def/SD is more important until it equals HP. After that, HP is more important. Therefore the maximum return for an even stat total is if the defense and HP are equal, and for an odd stat total, for HP to have 1 extra point.

[Runpapa]

Oh, I really appreciate the participation, you three. Damn, Im very grateful.

And though I've learned this, at the same time, I feel uneasy.

Shuckle, having a base Df/SDf over 200, despite its poor Hp will last longer than Wailord because it (Wailord) defenses hardly parallel?

Am I right?

[GoldDraconian]

There's no need for any fancy setup when calculating physical or Special endurance, or REAL Defense/SpDefense. HP*Def/SpDef will work fine.

Working with Slowking's numbers (85 stat EXP across the board plus Hardy, Shuckle's defenses give you 104,434. Wailord has 73,794. Shuckle's high stats (Defense and Special Defense) are higher than Wailord's high stat (HP), and Shuckle's HP is higher than Wailord's defenses, so this result is hardy surprising.

Having better defenses doesn't always make for more endurance, though. The way to get the most durability is to divide EVs and use personalities to make the Defense stat and the HP stat as close as possible and have the highest total. 250 HP and 250 Defense works out better than 150 Defense and 350 HP, for example, even though they both add up to 500 stat points.

When in doubt, boost HP. HP contributes to both physical and Special durability, while Defense and Special Defense boost only their respective kinds of endurance.

[Slowking86]

<DarkBot> asdasd (SHUCKLE M L100) @STICK [TRAIT] STURDY [PERSONALITY] HARDY [DVs] 31/31/31/31/31/31 [STAT EXP] 85/85/85/85/85/85
<DarkBot> [HP] 202 [ATTACK] 77 [DEFENSE] 517 [SP. ATK] 77 [SP. DEF] 517 [SPEED] 67

vs

<DarkBot> hema (WAILORD M L100) @STICK [TRAIT] WATER VEIL [PERSONALITY] HARDY [DVs] 31/31/31/31/31/31 [STAT EXP] 85/85/85/85/85/85
<DarkBot> [HP] 502 [ATTACK] 237 [DEFENSE] 147 [SP. ATK] 237 [SP. DEF] 147 [SPEED] 177

this is with a neutral nature and 85 points in each stat.

An EQ from a pokemon with 300 in attack will take an average of 160 hp from wailord which is 31,9% of it's total hp.

The same attack takes an average of 46 hp from shuckle which is 22,8% of it's total hp.

[Mr.E]

When trying to defend only against one or the other, the def/SD is more important until it equals HP.

That is not true. I mentioned 200, as that's about the "magic number." After that, damage is usually reduced by less than 1 per stat point even from powerful guys like 'Zam or Metagross, meaning contributing to HP provides just as well a boost as does the defense stat PLUS increases resistance to the other type of attack. i.e. A Milotic with 380 HP and 325 SpD will be more durable to special attacks than one with 325 HP and 380 SpD while being better on Defense as well.

Of course, there are some exception. Regirock has such high Defense that you take off only 1 damage for every 5 Defense points you have (or so). Normally a huge waste, but dumping it all in Defense/HP allows it to survive TWO Meteor Mashes from Metagross, and is more beneficial against the common Dragon Dancers (or, say, the occasional Zangoose).

Another example: Doing the same to Regice's Special Defense doesn't make a whole lot of sense, since 'Zam is really the only common special attacker to tote SpA-increasers. And unlike Regirock, Regice cannot kill 'Zam effectively (assuming it has Recover) while it Calm Minds up (whereas Regirock can HP Rock/AP Gyarados and Salamence and can Earthquake Metagross for good damage), meaning it's better to simply Toxic it (twice if Lum), go for Freeze or CH, or switch to something else.

[[McGraw]]

The important words in the bit you quoted are "until it equals HP" - meaning that if the def is lower than HP, 1 extra def point > 1 extra HP.

Let's take your example of Milotic and Kazam and assume Kazam has 405 SA.

When Milotic has 315 HP and 335 SD - 44.47% max damage
When Milotic has 325 HP and 325 SD - 44.40% max damage
When Milotic has 335 HP and 315 SD - 44.42% max damage

[Mr.E]

Alright, so you win that one. I'm assuming that's for Psychic. =[ More powerful attacks (or weaknesses) tend to skew the figures slightly, but you can still see that the HP are more beneficial. Damage is essentially the same, but the "335/315" Milotic has 20 extra HP's worth of defense against physical attacks and aids Leftovers recovery by 1 more a turn (two if it had 336 HP X).

Or the rare Seismic Toss/Night Shade. 8) But yeah, nobody cares about that.

[Not-Edit] My own figures, compared to yours, come out at 44.44%/44.31%/44.18% max damage, respectively (from top to bottom). What calculator are you using, and are you sure you didn't make any minor mistakes? =[
(I checked T-Punch damage too, which goes from 49.52%/49.54%/49.55%. Weakness does boost the power up enough to cause SpD to be an ever-so-slight "advantage" in this case.)

[[McGraw]]

Yeah it was psychic...

Umm, I used [(42*90*405/50/def)+2]*1.5... 42 is level*2/5+2

[Agenon_Taeche]

If say, i were to distribute EPs on a Dodrio, how would i go about to maximize its defense/HP ratio? around 200 defense and as high HP as possible?

(i am quite unable to accurately calculate this on my own, im really bad at math )

[TheParadox]

What pokemon has the highest special and normal defenses

[Poryhedron]

That's easy. Shuckle. Shuckle is a veritable god of defense. Unfortunately, it's not much good for actually winning battles, unless your enemy is dangerously fond of Explosion.

[TheParadox]

what about in R/S?

[Poryhedron]

I'll assume when you say "R/S" you mean "202", since even in RS nothing can touch Shuckle in terms of defense. Among the species legally obtainable in Ruby/Sapphire, the three Regi's each claim a title in high defenses.

Other than Shuckle, the highest physical defense belongs to Regirock, who has a DEF score of 200 and a SDF of 100. Other than Shuckle, the highest special defense belongs to Regice, who has a SDF score of 200 and a DEF of 100. Other than Shuckle, the pokémon with the highest roughly equal defense scores is Registeel, who has DEF and SDF scores of 150. Others, like Steelix or Ho-Oh, may beat Regirock on one of those stats, but they suffer in the other.

[TheParadox]

If a high defense pokemon had a Toxic/Rest moveset wouldnt it kill most other pokemon especially with another defense or special defense boosting stat

[Poryhedron]

Well, the trouble with Toxic is that it reverts to ordinary poison if the victim is switched out...so in competitive battling it winds up serving as a pseudohazer. That is, unless you can score a Mean Look. The best trapping move Shuckle has, though, is Wrap, and that's no sure thing since it wears off in 2-5 turns.

[Don't Run With Scizors]

Well, the trouble with Toxic is that it reverts to ordinary poison if the victim is switched out...

Toxic no longer behaves that way in RS. A Toxic'd Pokémon will remain with Toxic-level poison even if switched out, although its Toxic "counter" will reset back to 6% initial damage and then continue to worsen as long as the Pokémon is in battle or has the ailment.

As for Shuckle... well, it can Toxic, it can Safeguard, it can Rest... but do almost nothing else. On the other hand, just about every other defensive tank has fairly decent attack capability, not to mention way better HP.

[GoldDraconian]

If say, i were to distribute EPs on a Dodrio, how would i go about to maximize its defense/HP ratio? around 200 defense and as high HP as possible?

(i am quite unable to accurately calculate this on my own, im really bad at math )

For the highest physical endurance possible with a given number of EVs, boost HP or Defense until it is equal to the other stat. Keep them equal (or HP 1 point higher, if necessary, or bring them as close together as possible).

If you simply want the highest physical defense possible regardless of EV cost, max both HP and Defense and give it a +Defense personality...

As McGraw pointed out, the way to squeeze the most endurance out is to have HP and Def/SpDef equal or as close to equal as possible. However, Mystery makes a valid point, although it doesn't seem to be coming out quite right- boosting HP is a better overall choice than boosting either Defense, since it increases endurance to either type of attack and makes Leftovers better to boot. However, if your goal is to boost a specific endurance, even that stat and HP out.

As a side note, if HP is more than double your Defense stats, you should boost the Defensive stats evenly rather than your HP. For example, Blissey should not be getting HP EVs until it has maxed Defense, assuming you want it to have the best overall endurance. If it's serving as a special sponge, for instance, you obviously don't care much about Defense, so boosting it is wasteful.

[Mr.E]

Blissey is always a special sponge. Regardless, it absolutely NEEDS Defense EVs in it. No-Defense-EV Blissey takes nearly DOUBLE the physical damage of one at 255-Defense-EVs Blissey. =[

And 130 Def Blissey can take a Max/Pers Dragonite Focus Punch and live to tell. X)