Five Years Later - September 11, 2006

[mr_pikachu]

It's been five years since the tragic events of 9/11. The collapse of the World Trade Center was only the first of many drastic changes.

What do you think about the changes of the last five years? Is the world a safer place? Or is it more dangerous? Has the world balance shifted? Or is it the same? Are we on the right course, or the wrong one? What are your thoughts?

[Heald]

Ah yes, the annual tradition of the memories of the lost are so beautifully commemorated as ignorant teenagers all the world over argue who are the bigger assholes - the Republicans or Democrats.

In response to your questions:

What do you I about the changes of the last five years? About the USA, the UK and other Western nations alienating Muslims and thereby increasing their likelihood to be attacked by terrorists? About the UK, US and other 'peacekeepers' doing the exact opposite of peacekeeping by invading the Middle East and merely fuelling the Middle Eastern hatred towards the West? Yeah, we've screwed up pretty bad.

The world is hardly safer, in fact it is more dangerous. Before 9/11 the only terrorism the UK attracted was from Irish Nationalists, nowadays it is almost daily we hear about the police detaining a Muslim in connection to a terror plot. Considering much of my family works in London, it was a bit of a shock to hear that London had been attacked.

At the current rate of progress, the Middle Eastern situation is going to escalate, as we have seen with the Israel-Lebanon crisis. As long as the US pumps military aid into Israel who do nothing but bully the native Muslims in the region and as long as the West keeps running their 'peacekeeping' which is causing more harm than good, eventually the Islam nations are going to reach breaking point and there will be a full-scale war. And all because a handful of people got pissed off at you and flew two planes into two very tall buildings. Well done, we've done exactly what the terrorists wanted us to do.

[-/Deathborn/-]

Then there's the fact that now the authorities at airports/major transportation now believe EVERYONE is a terrorist. Even the children.
Also the world has generally become that if you have nukes, you become a "threat" to the US.

What about Canada? Nothing rarely ever happens to them. Good country. If we destroy them, then there goes Stargate, Battlestar Galactica, Smallville, and every other show shot in Vancouver. Where will Meredith Rodney Mckay go?

Well, it's also the Republicans who have to deal with the coincidences that every time a war was declared, a Republican had to do it. Poor guys...

The world is a more dangerous place. If you're Muslim, and you keep in touch with some honest childhood friends or business partners, there's always some crazy American guy who goes "OMG!11one HE'S A TERRORST!" You as merely TALK in Arabic people get suspicious of you. What if you're here visting some friends who can only speak Arabic?

[Heald]

Then there's the fact that now the authorities at airports/major transportation now believe EVERYONE is a terrorist. Even the children.

Yeah, it is pretty disgusting. I used to love flying. Now I avoid it like the plague just so I don't have Billy Bunsen-Burner shoving a probe up my arse for having a metal belt.

Also the world has generally become that if you have nukes, you become a "threat" to the US.

Correction: if you have nukes and are either Muslim or Communist. We don't consider Israel a threat (although the rest of the world does).

What about Canada? Nothing rarely ever happens to them. Good country. If we destroy them, then there goes Stargate, Battlestar Galactica, Smallville, and every other show shot in Vancouver. Where will Meredith Rodney Mckay go?

No small loss I suppose

Well, it's also the Republicans who have to deal with the coincidences that every time a war was declared, a Republican had to do it. Poor guys...

Not really. Woodrow Wilson (D) - World War I; FDR (D) - World War II; Jimmy Carter (D) - Afghanistan. Basically, Democrats have had to get involved in war too - they just didn't mess it up

The world is a more dangerous place. If you're Muslim, and you keep in touch with some honest childhood friends or business partners, there's always some crazy American guy who goes "OMG!11one HE'S A TERRORST!" You as merely TALK in Arabic people get suspicious of you. What if you're here visting some friends who can only speak Arabic?

I agree, it has become insane. Two people overheard talking in Arabic were thrown off a plane by the other passengers purely based on the fact they were talking in Arabic. That is completely disgusting.

[Roy Karrde]

Well I wanted to wait till I got back to the apartment, but damn I just had to comment! To believe the world was any different before 9/11 than it is now, is just stupid. The only thing 9/11 did was wake up most of the world on a threat that has been there since the Soviets invaded Afghanastan and maybe even before.

Western Societies like Britain, Canada, and the US just thought of ourselves as safe, when in reality we were not. Look at the possible millinium attacks, when terrorst suspects were arrested just days before the millinium and one guy caught crossing the Canadian border with explosives. Before that there was the plot to blow up airliners over the pacific, before that there was the 1993 attacks.

We were at war with these people since before 1993 but the current administration in the United States refused to fight back. We havn't been safe, no one in the world has, for a very very long time. We have all just been too stupid and arrogant to realize it.

As for the future, I see the Palestine and Isreal situation will begin to relax, we havn't heard much out of Palestine in a while, and maybe Hamas being in power will calm their terrorist activities. Iran will soon become the next North Korea, in which they will constantly be skirting the line, and until someone in the UN grows enough balls to actually do something against them, they will keep it up. Iraq will continue to grow more and more stable, the same with Afghanistan. There will be random attacks here and there, but the fear of Civil War has come and gone, and it seems to be quieting down.

As for the airplane thing, Blacks and Mexicans have been the source of scruitiny for airlines for years. Now it is muslims. We live in a world that has finally woken up to the realization of Islamic Fundimentalism. Becuase of that if you are a Muslim man that is in his teens to early adult age, then you must prepare to take precautions when on flights. You cannot act nervous and get up constantly, and talk in any arabic language while on flights. That is just how the world is right now, and that is how it will be for a long time to come.

[Dark-San]

[b][size=3]The world after 9-11? Hmm well one thing for sure is that the main man behind the planning, Osama Bin Laden, is still at large in the mountain range between the borders of Pakistan and Afghanistan. Despite having a US$25 million bounty on his head, CIA still haven't had a clue on where is his exact location. Pakistan is helping the United States, but there are still not yet any major breakthrough.

Also, the world now became generally more unsafe in my opinion. Look at the amount of unease and tension we have now? North Korea against United States, Israel against Palestines, Israel against Lebanon, political instability in Sri Lanka, Iraq and Afghanistan etc.. If we had to put it bluntly for all of the major conflicts, it seems like United States and Israel against the rest of the world. So it is either you are on the American's side or on the other side.

[TKnHappyNess]

Here's a thought. Do you think that if Al Gore were elected President instead of Bush, 9/11 would still have happened? I think it's possible, but I don't think Osama would have much of a grudge against him, mainly because Dubya is just continuing where his father left off.

[Roy Karrde]

Here's a counter thought TK. Do you think that all the preparation, planning, and everything else took place in the few months that Bush was in office? What about Osama's gang shouting "Clinton is the Devil" and "Death to America"? If Al Gore was President 9/11 still would have happened, it was destined to happen to do the ineptness that had already happened. Oh yeah and when did "Dubya" continue where his father left off when it came to the Mid-East? The first months when "Dubya" took over, he dealt with Stem Cell Research, and Economic things, his Presidency remained pretty much quiet except for brokering a deal with Stem Cell Research until 9/11 happened.

Edit: Just wanted to add that Osama also tried to kill Clinton and the Pope back in 1996 I believe. So I doubt Osama or Al Qaeda or any Islamic Fundies care about Democrat or Republican, Left or Right. If you are American and you do not bow down to Islam and restrict the rights of women, then you deserve to die.

"Americans value life, we value death, that is the difference between us." - Osama in 2001

[Magmar]

When my brother was 9, he got searched for bombs while we were trying to board a plane. Poor kid puked and everything. It was awful. I just don't get what they were thinking. Maybe it's because I'm dark. Asswipes.

[Dark Dragonite]

The world and the US is not safer, Bush, and his cronies let this happen, and uses it to get his wars...

How come there were no congressmen or senators in the Pentagon?

Opie & Anthony said it best, instead of trying to make everyone sad, where is the anger, the outrage, we should be getting the job done...I just don't see it happening...

[Roy Karrde]

The world and the US is not safer, Bush, and his cronies let this happen, and uses it to get his wars...

Number 1 rule of Conspiracies, the more people that would be/are involved in the Conspiracy, the better the chance that it is not true.

How come there were no congressmen or senators in the Pentagon?

Other than it was early morning in the working day? And that most senior staff had been evacuated from Congressional buildings, or placed in shelters after the second plane hit the World Trade Center?

Opie & Anthony said it best, instead of trying to make everyone sad, where is the anger, the outrage, we should be getting the job done...I just don't see it happening...

The anger and outrage happened the first year, and the second year. You can still have a day of rememberence, but even today on the day of rememberence we are still working to prevent Terrorist attacks, as are our allies, and we still continue to fight the War Against Terrorist and Islamic Fundimentalist in Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere.

[Dark Dragonite]

Honestly, I think we hit the wrong country(Iraq)...that shit is a mess now, and will be decades before we can leave now...Bush should have targeted Iran, Syria, and that whole mess first...

There is no plausible way someone on the top 10 most wanted list can disappear like Bin Laden did...no trail for 2yrs...I do believe I remember seeing pictures of Bush senior with him, as in years ago, when they were being trained by our republican gov. and Senior had financial dealings with the Bin Laden family...

[Roy Karrde]

Actually there is a very good way for Bin Laden to disapear like he did. Bin Laden is/was a survivalist, he would take his children out into the desert for long periods of time with very few pervisions. He is also a hero in the region between Pakistan and Afghanistan. He defeated the Soviets, and defeated America in Somalia, so there are alot of people that would take care of him if he wanted to live in the small towns around there. Not to mention he most likely had a network of tunnels set up since the Soviet days so that he and his warriors could hide.

As for Bush Senior having dealings with the Bin Laden family, the family has almost or over 100 members in it, Usama has been kicked out of the family, and has been since he was corrupted by the Blind Religous Leader. Before then Usama was a student and a pretty moderate member of his family. Anyway Bin Laden's family has kicked out Usama and the 100+ member family contains alot of oil in the Mid East, and since Bush Senior used to do Oil dealings, then more than likely he delt with the Bin Laden family.

Is that a bad thing? No, the Bin Laden family does not like Usama since he went off the deep end.

Does that mean Bush is hiding Bin Laden? No, that would mean the President would have to have direct control over Commanders on the field, telling them to let Bin Laden go, or to disregard survalance of Usama. And as the Clinton Administration showed us, if you do things like that, it gets out to the public. Aka the first rule of a conspiracy: The more people involved, the bigger the chance it isnt true, or it gets out to the public.

[Heald]

Actually there is a very good way for Bin Laden to disapear like he did. Bin Laden is/was a survivalist, he would take his children out into the desert for long periods of time with very few pervisions. He is also a hero in the region between Pakistan and Afghanistan. He defeated the Soviets, and defeated America in Somalia, so there are alot of people that would take care of him if he wanted to live in the small towns around there. Not to mention he most likely had a network of tunnels set up since the Soviet days so that he and his warriors could hide.

As for Bush Senior having dealings with the Bin Laden family, the family has almost or over 100 members in it, Usama has been kicked out of the family, and has been since he was corrupted by the Blind Religous Leader. Before then Usama was a student and a pretty moderate member of his family. Anyway Bin Laden's family has kicked out Usama and the 100+ member family contains alot of oil in the Mid East, and since Bush Senior used to do Oil dealings, then more than likely he delt with the Bin Laden family.

Is that a bad thing? No, the Bin Laden family does not like Usama since he went off the deep end.

Does that mean Bush is hiding Bin Laden? No, that would mean the President would have to have direct control over Commanders on the field, telling them to let Bin Laden go, or to disregard survalance of Usama. And as the Clinton Administration showed us, if you do things like that, it gets out to the public. Aka the first rule of a conspiracy: The more people involved, the bigger the chance it isnt true, or it gets out to the public.

There's also the small matter that all the towel-heads look EXACTLY THE SAME so he could've just trimmed his beard and we'd have no idea how to differentiate him from the other 50 million or so towel-heads in Bongobongostan or wherever the Hell we're bombing these days.

[Dark Dragonite]

There's also the small matter that all the towel-heads look EXACTLY THE SAME so he could've just trimmed his beard and we'd have no idea how to differentiate him from the other 50 million or so towel-heads in Bongobongostan or wherever the Hell we're bombing these days.

Ok, if they can't tell him apart in disguise, then the CIA, FBI, and most of our surveiliance is a waste of money...


Duh...

Oh, and with Bin Laden loose, Bush can use the "Terror threat" to have more wars...like he wants to invade iran and syria now...

http://www.tvnewslies.org/html/bin_laden_ties.html

FBI Bin Laden Not Wanted 'Dead or Alive' for 9-11 - FBI Director Robert Mueller, in a speech at the Commonwealth Club on April 19, 2002, said: "In our investigation, we have not uncovered a single piece of paper - either here in the United States, or in the treasure trove of information that has turned up in Afghanistan and elsewhere - that mentioned any aspect of the September 11 plot." - The evidence against Bin Laden, promised by Secretary of State Colin Powell on September 23, 2001, has yet to be made available to the public.
CIA: Osama Helped Bush in '04 - On Oct. 29, 2004, just four days before the U.S. presidential election, al-Qaeda leader Osama bin-Laden released a videotape denouncing George W. Bush. Some Bush supporters quickly spun the diatribe as “Osama’s endorsement of John Kerry.” But behind the walls of the CIA, analysts had concluded the opposite: that bin-Laden was trying to help Bush gain a second term. - This stunning CIA disclosure is tucked away in a brief passage near the end of Ron Suskind’s The One Percent Doctrine, which draws heavily from CIA insiders.
CIA closes down unit that was hunting Bin Laden - The terrorist tracking unit, known inside the spy agency as "Alec station," was disbanded late last year and its analysts reassigned to other offices within the CIA's Counterterrorist Center, the officials said. - TVNL COMMENT: Any Questions? Bush had no intentions of getting his buddy.
Bush & Bin Laden - Kindred Spirits - A TVNL Flyer
FBI PROTECTS OSAMA BIN LADEN’S “RIGHT TO PRIVACY” IN DOCUMENT RELEASE - Judicial Watch, the public interest group that fights government corruption, announced today that it has obtained documents through the Freedom of Information Act (“FOIA”) in which the Federal Bureau of Investigation (“FBI”) has invoked privacy right protections on behalf of al Qaeda terror leader Osama bin Laden. In a September 24, 2003 declassified “Secret” FBI report obtained by Judicial Watch, the FBI invoked Exemption 6 under FOIA law on behalf of bin Laden, which permits the government to withhold all information about U.S. persons in “personnel and medical files and similar files” when the disclosure of such information “would constitute a clearly unwarranted invasion of personal privacy.” (5 U.S.C. § 552(b)(6) (2000)) - Before invoking privacy protections for Osama bin Laden under Exemption 6, the FBI should have conducted a balancing “test” of the public's right to disclosure against the individual's right to privacy

[Roy Karrde]

And the only website you have to back this up is TVNewslies? Who itself links to a bunch of small, no named websites. The only one on there that is worth anything is MSNBC. And that article is about the Preditor Drone.

As for the CIA not being able to spot Bin Ladin, the man is over 6 foot tall, he is practically the tallest Arab in the area. Again though the only problem is you are looking for a needle in a very large hay stack, the hay stack being the area between Afghanistan and Pakistan.

For Bush using it as grounds to invade Iran and Syria, are you kidding me? Iran in and of itself these last few months has provided more than enough action for the use of force against it. Bush would hardly need Bin Ladin for help there. As for Syria, the last time I checked they are our allies, even helping to fend off a bombing and terrorist attack on our embasy today. But who knows, you think Bush is wanting to keep Bin Ladin safe, so maybe Bush also planned the terrorist attack! That way it can make Syria look good! Oh wait, no Bush wants to invade Syria right, Damn he is more clever than I thought.

BTW just think of the massive number of people needed if Bush wanted to keep Bin Ladin safe, which in itself is a stupid idea. But think, his senior staff would probably know, or atleast a few of them. The Generals that were on the ground hunting him in Afghanistan would have to know in order to order their troops not to search that area. The heads of the military would have to know, as well as the FBI and CIA who would be flying servalance over head since they would have to doctor any tape spotting Bin Ladin in it. Again too many people for it to be true.

Then again the very idea that Bush does not want to find this guy, is absurd, and borderline insane.

[Blademaster]

Oh, goodie, another Roy Karrde debate!

(sets up a ticket booth)

Admission is only $5! That's right, only $10!

And lol both at Heald's exceedingly racist but still very funny comments, as well as at that picture, Steve... That's our President!

[Heald]

As for the CIA not being able to spot Bin Ladin, the man is over 6 foot tall, he is practically the tallest Arab in the area. Again though the only problem is you are looking for a needle in a very large hay stack, the hay stack being the area between Afghanistan and Pakistan.

It is probably more likely he is working shifts at a McDonalds in New Jersey.

[Dark-San]

It is probably more likely he is working shifts at a McDonalds in New Jersey.

[b][size=3]I doubt Bin Laden is seriously in any need of money since he has his wealth from the oil sales before he was made American Public Enemy No. 1. So working in McDonalds is a way no no.

Besides that Al Qaeda had already stepped up their propaganda by re-circuiting an American that had Jewish blood and furthermore he came from a Catholic background family before he converted to Islam. What a good strategy but I am not very sure on how people will respond to these.

[Dark Dragonite]

That photo is not retouched in any way, shape, or form...he really is that ignorant...only, unlike Reagan, he didn't surround himself with smart people...

Ok, let's see, will the Republicans again, without UN backing, just take over a country, and lose thousands more American lives...

*shakes magic 8 ball*

"Sources say Yes"

Ah crap...

Would you like a list of bills Mr. Clinton brought up to stop something like 9/11 from happening that the republicans voted down?

Let's see...also the matter of Bush blaming Clinton for 9/11...what, 6 months after Clinton was gone...did Clinton blame Bush Sr. for the first WTC bombing 3 weeks after he left office? NO

-Bill Clinton:-
President Clinton led the fight against terrorism over strong opposition from Republicans in Congress and the pro-Republican Media. Here's a partial - yet incredibly long - list of accomplishments against terrorism for which the Clinton Administration gets almost no credit or even recognition. President Clinton:

-- sent legislation to Congress to TIGHTEN AIRPORT SECURITY. (Remember, this is before 911) The legislation was defeated by the Republicans because of opposition from the airlines.

-- sent legislation to Congress to allow for BETTER TRACKING OF TERRORIST FUNDING. It was defeated by Republicans in the Senate because of opposition from banking interests.

-- sent legislation to Congress to add tagents to explosives, to allow for BETTER TRACKING OF EXPLOSIVES USED BY TERRORISTS. It was defeated by the Republicans because of opposition from the NRA.

When Republicans couldn't prevent executive action, President Clinton:

-- Developed the nation's first anti-terrorism policy, and appointed first national coordinator.

-- Stopped cold the planned attack to blow up 12 U.S. jetliners simultaneously.

-- Stopped cold the planned attack to blow up UN Headquarters.

-- Stopped cold the planned attack to blow up FBI Headquarters.

-- Stopped cold the planned attack to blow up the Israeli Embassy in Washington.

--Stopped cold the planned attack to blow up Boston airport.

-- Stopped cold the planned attack to blow up Lincoln and Holland Tunnels in NY.

-- Stopped cold the planned attack to blow up the George Washington Bridge.

-- Stopped cold the planned attack to blow up the US Embassy in Albania.

-- Tried to kill Osama bin Laden and disrupt Al Qaeda through preemptive strikes (efforts denounced by the G.O.P.).

-- Brought perpetrators of first World Trade Center bombing and CIA killings to justice.

-- Did not blame Bush I administration for first World Trade Center bombing even though it occurred 38 days after they had left office. Instead, worked hard, even obsessively -- and successfully -- to stop future terrorist attacks.

-- Named the Hart-Rudman commission to report on nature of terrorist threats and major steps to be taken to combat terrorism.

-- Tripled the budget of the FBI for counterterrorism and doubled overall funding for counterterrorism.

-- Detected and destroyed cells of Al Qaeda in over 20 countries

-- Created a national stockpile of drugs and vaccines including 40 million doses of smallpox vaccine.

-- Robert Oakley, Reagan Counterterrorism Czar says of Clinton's efforts "Overall, I give them very high marks" and "The only major criticism I have is the obsession with Osama"

-- Paul Bremer, Bush's Administrator of Iraq disagrees slightly with Robert Oakley saying he believed the Clinton Administration had "correctly focused on bin Laden. "

-- Barton Gellman of the Washington Post put it best, "By any measure available, Clinton left office having given greater priority to terrorism than any president before him" and was the "first administration to undertake a systematic anti-terrorist effort."

Here, in stark contrast, is part of the Bush-Cheney anti-terrorism record before September 11, 2001:

-- Backed off Clinton administration's anti-terrorism efforts.

-- Shelved the Hart-Rudman report.

-- Appointed new anti-terrorism task force under Dick Cheney. Group did not even meet before 9/11.

-- Called for cuts in anti-terrorism efforts by the Department of Defense.

-- Gave no priority to anti-terrorism efforts by Justice Department.

-- Ignored warnings from Sandy Berger, Louis Freeh, George Tennant, Paul Bremer, and Richard Clarke about the urgency of terrorist threats.

-- Halted Predator drone tracking of Osama bin Laden.

-- Did nothing in wake of August 6 C.I.A. report to president saying Al Qaeda attack by hijack of an airliner almost certain.

-- Bush - knowing about the terrorists' plans to attack in America, warned that terrorists were in flight schools in the US - took a four week vacation.

-- By failing to order any coordination of intelligence data, missed opportunity to stop the 9/11 plot as Clinton-Gore had stopped the millennium plots.

-- Blamed President Clinton for 9/11.

[Roy Karrde]

While your compiling that list please add
-- Allowed Terrorists to come into this country and train.
-- Did not retaliate in Somalia and after 1993 World Trade Center
-- Decided to fight Terrorism as a Police Action
-- Did not visit the site of the 1993 World Trade Center Bombing, while in New York a few days afterwards, becuase he was 'Too Busy'
-- Decided to let Bin Ladin go when a willing country wanted to turn him over, using the excuse that he did not have enough to hold him on
even while New York had a inditement against him.
-- Decided not to kill Bin Ladin when he was spotted becuase he was worried about the politcial fall out.
-- Decided not to kill Bin Ladin from Pred drone aircraft becuase he wanted two sources to varify that it was Bin Ladin not one.
-- Destroyed a Pharmacutical factory as a retaliatory action.
-- Ignored Phone Calls from the CIA until Bin Ladin had moved out of the area so that he didn't have to give the order.
-- Did not retaliate after the Cole bombings becuase he was worried about Gore losing the election.
-- Pulled out of Somalia thus giving Bin Ladin even more ammunition to use against the United States.
-- Helped create a Security Wall to keep infomation from being shared, making it almost impossible for them to track terrorist activity.
-- and just becuase it is so stupid: Proceeded to refer to Terrorism as a Police Action.