Ah, the brokenness of Spikes...

[Red Angel]

I just thought I'd post this since I just noticed how insanely deadly Spikes has become in R/S. It now layers, so using it three times will cause your opponent to lose 25% of their HP every time they switch. Therefore, it's conceivable that you could just send in a well-defended Roar or Whirlwind user (Skarmory comes to mind) and just shuffle through your opponent's teams, making everything except Flying types and Floaters lose 1/4 of their HP. It also gives rise to another strategy: lay spikes, then switch in whatever is good against their current Pokemon. Now they're forced to either stay in and get destroyed by super-effective moves, or switch and lose massive amounts of helath, after which you can switch as well and just bring something that's good against their new Pokemon.

The only way to get rid of Spikes is Rapid Spin, and if your opponent lacks that, they've basically lost. To make the situation worse, there are only two Rapid Spin users that are immune to Spikes (Claydol and Delibird). I see two things happening due to this whole situation: first, Rapid Spin will become as essential on many teams as Haze was with the release of G/S/C, and a new cluse: the Spikes Clause. What do you people think on this whole issue?

[Gligar_Man]

ummm... yeah this is common knowledge

[Dr Crocodile]

I don't see what the big deal is. All that time you spend spiking, I can spend killing you. Few if any spikers can stand more than one SE hit and since few players are wiling to outright lose a pokemon just to layer spikes, it won't be that big a problem.

[Red Angel]

Originally posted by Gligar_Man
ummm... yeah this is common knowledge

I KNOW that this is common knowlege... I was just seeing if anyone cared enough to contribute spike strategies, discussion, whatever... and you're not helping.

[probationsmack]

actually cacturne and skarmory play a good resistance or evasion game, making them able to get some spikes on the ground (all the obtainable rapidspinners are weak to cacturnes giga drain)

i like the idea of spike stacking, switch wars were among the most annoying and non decisive way of battling in g/s/c
it wasnt even about fighting it was about who you could switch to and deal minor damage along the way
spike stacking solves this great dillema
and an countermeasure is offered with rapid spin
hey guess what, forretress gets earthquake now
catch those scary fire types on the switch, hahahahaha
(alot of things get earthquake now, sorry electric types)

[Gligar_Man]

it is common knowledge and its not such a good idea to lay out a ton of spikes, esspecially if you dont know your opp. has a rapid spinner youll just lose a ton of tempo... and psuedohazing them for 25% isnt smart since they get to hit you first and youll face a ton of dmg, but it is good in some cases say they switch out, and only hae like 3 left and the others have like 20% life, id do it then...

[Oddish17]

With so many pokemon that can recover health easily, Spikes are not as useful as people think. It's nice if you can get them down, but your entire strategy shouldn't be based around this. Broken? No. It's incredibly easy to work around.

[Bug Catcher Daniel]

hhmmm.. im planning on adding a Glalie to my team.... but its not that great...
i would give him this set:
crunch
ice beam
toxic
spikes

maybe if i passed him Light screen or reflect?
the rest of my team is: alakazam, absol, heracross, breloom, armaldo

[Dr Crocodile]

Forrtressess' unstabbed Earthquake means nothing to any respectable Fire type except Magcargo and maybe Magmar. Torkoal has the Def to shake it off, Arcanine hasa enough HP, Charizard is immune, etc. It won't OHKO any incoming Fire types. Plus that turn it spent Quaking is one turn it could have spent Spiking. With its 4x weakenss to fire and its low speed, Forty now must switch or die without ever getting a chance to Spike. Caturne's evasion game takes a turn to set up. And it means nothing in the face of Vital Throw and Aerial Ace (Very common attack). Skarmory may take physical hits well but what is it going to do when a fire or electric type comes or a pokemon with those moves? It's either run or die. The point is that you'll rarely get enough time to layer spikes as your opponent is likely not to let you.

[Gligar_Man]

well then i owuldnt reccomend adding glalie, you need a flier bad, no gorund immune, and the rest is very questionable as is

edit: doc-croc, its all about the switch war... -_-... obviously your not gonna try and spike 3x in a row against your enemy, send say skarmory in vs. a normal type w/earthquake/return... then spike and switch to your advantage... like attakcing but the tempo is made up later, not directly... -_-, it really is quite simple

[Red Angel]

Actually, the pseudo-hazing would be quite effective if you had something with a lot of resistances (Skarmory) or good evasion set up (Cacturne). By the way, Cacturne is absolutely awesome as a Spiker. Sandstorm first to raise opponent and raise evasion, then Spike, evading some of your opponent's attacks due to Sandstorm. Needle Arm or Giga Drain are nice for taking care of the obtainable Rapid Spinners (which are all Grass-weak, as probationsmack pointed out). You can just set spikes and then use Needle Arm to catch Rapid Spinners on the switch-in. The only problem is that it can't Roar or Whirlwind...

[Bug Catcher Daniel]

would u suggest skarmory or cacturne in my team?
if i choose skarmory i would only have 1 sp attacker... and if choose cacturne... mm... ?

EDIT: wow just notice i have two x4 weakness to flying.. and i cant trust all on my armaldo...thank god the only good flying pokemon is skarmory.... and i can take that out with my enduring heracross

[Red Angel]

Cacturne if you have a hazer or pseudohazer, Skarmory with Roar otherwise.

[Gligar_Man]

actually cacturne is a horrible spiker, it has so many weakness, and so many common weakness grass/dark is a horrible type combination defensively... cacturne is obviously an offensive type, with its 300+ on both attax and a pretty lame defense, he makes one of the worst spikers, i cant even understand why people would use him for spiking... he has pretty lame staying power, and he is far too slow for needle arm to be as good as it could be, cacturne is an all out attacker, i would reccomend glalie/skarmory for spikes, less weakness (less than half the weakness by far...) and all youd end up doing is psuedo-passing sandstorm, and possibly to something it dmgs also... cacturne is meant to be an attacker, they gave him spikes as some cruel joke... and even though rapid spinners are weak to grass, alot of them can pack moves wich can take out cacturne before he takes them out... but youll end up being switched to a flier most likely, in wich cacturne has really no defenses... and then a rapid spinner will follow him, resulting in minimal spikes damage, and in 2v2 cacturne will get owned by being double teamed (as he poses a threat of spikes obviously) very easily IMO cacturne is the worst spiker in the game... i really could care less if this is controversial, and im not saying cacturne is worthless, he makes a very good attacker IMO, and his type combination is not bad offensively, thats just why he shouldnt be used in a position where a defensive pokemon prevails

[Dr Crocodile]

You mean to Spike on the fly. Yeah that seems like the best way. Force a Switch with Skarmory and Spike every time you foe swicthes. Then you switch to a Camerupt or something and eat the incoming attack. If they are a fire or electric type, they must switch and eat your Spikes. Yeah that works well. You don't have to talk down to me its just I was thinking abotu all at once Spiking and how that would be bad. I'm tired, ok. Jeesh. Oh and Cactunre is tougher to use since it has so many weaknesses. And its evasion game isn't godly. Sandstorm only raises his evasion by like one stage from what I figure. He's still likely to get hit.

[SilverPersian]

Well, I'm reforming my team a fair bit to get around spikes (and a few other things ;] ) and I decided to go with magneton. If I can get it in against skarmory, it dies. Then claydol comes to rapid spin a little later in the game. If skarmory predicts a switch to maggy, spikes still haven't been layed and I don't have a problem. If someone is using a HP ground skarmory *looks at gligar man :]* I will die ;_;

Cacturne shoudln't be too hard to kill, as GM outlined before its got low defences and not great resistances, but glalie may be a problem.

[Darkanine]

I knew this already, yes rapid spin will be a nessisary move. Thanks for announcing it though.

[probationsmack]

Originally posted by Darkanine
I knew this already, yes rapid spin will be a nessisary move. Thanks for announcing it though.

good for you,
this is one problem i have with this forum, too many people trying to sound like they are smart or better than most else.

yah, but ill be using cacturne as my spiker, why? because it looks so much cooler than skarmory or glaile


*probationsmack spits on skarmory and glaile

[Gligar_Man]

lol, and SP give your magneton HP-water to counter strategies such as mine, lol... mainly for obvious reasons of rhydons complete pwnage of magneton w/lightningrod... and f33r my skarm... he pwnz your maggy, lol... and if you need any help or idea if your brave enough to progress the metagame to 2v2, i would be most glad to help you, just find my AIM in my profile... ... and i would be most helpful... yup cacturne is a truly offensive pokemon... w/the boosted evasion, offensively set type combination IMO, bad defensive stats, and bad defensive type combination IMO... its kind of obvious, and doc croc, thats not what i was intending, but with people on here who like to soak up information, it is important not to mislead anyone...

[Scythemantis]

Are pokemon with levitate damaged by spikes? (Sorry if this is an idiotic question)

[Gligar_Man]

no they are not... and its not a dumb question

[Darkchampion]

Heh the only times you will see hidden power is on rsbot/sharked pokemon. Cause no one in there right mind is going to sit there and hatch 3253252351 skarm eggs to get the one they want

[Darkanine]

I do not know everything, only after 5 hours or so talking to gligarman did I start understanding stuff, guess what. He knows because he tests the stuff. And yes its nice to point things out like this, or you could make a team and post it. I mean this post wont last longer than a few days so its not like some bulliten saying "Hey BUTTARDS! Spikes layers so your gonna want rapid spin now!" I said thanks for pointing it out, but it will become known after people star exploiting it, as they will. Sorry if I offended you by thanking you.

[probationsmack]

i sure was offended for you blatantly and hastily thanking someone
how dare you
you got a problem or something?
who in their right mind would be nice, the real world is gonna eat you alive whippersnapper, since you be playing your pogemons foreva, yeah uh huh
im big
im bad
im.... tired

[Gligar_Man]

Originally posted by Darkchampion
Heh the only times you will see hidden power is on rsbot/sharked pokemon. Cause no one in there right mind is going to sit there and hatch 3253252351 skarm eggs to get the one they want

lol... actually i had caught a skarm in game while beating it over and over/trading etc. so that i would be able to have a good variety of TMs and etc. on what i wanted to have them... i had taught a skarmory hidden power... i had noticed it was affective on a nosepass i had run into it... this struck me at first oh joy... hp-water/grass, it hadnt really struck me it was ground until i used it on an opponents muk... then i was supremely shocked, and i figured this is my new skarm, lol... and very simply i could figure out its bp was 70... mainly through logic, so these things do happen... thats all... it also led me to developing some stuff, lol...

[Oddish17]

Do you know what your Skarmory's IVs are? I am curious to know, as I am trying to figure out how the new HP works.

[Archer]

Which Pokemon besides Starmie and Claydoll learn Rapid Spin by levelling in R/S? I was considering breeding the move to a Sandshrew, but I can't seem to find a breeding partner to pass the move on.

[Green_Pikachu]

Originally posted by Red Angel
The only way to get rid of Spikes is Rapid Spin, and if your opponent lacks that, they've basically lost. To make the situation worse, there are only two Rapid Spin users that are immune to Spikes (Claydol and Delibird). I see two things happening due to this whole situation: first, Rapid Spin will become as essential on many teams as Haze was with the release of G/S/C, and a new cluse: the Spikes Clause. What do you people think on this whole issue?

1). Haze was never popular in GSC.

2). there will be no spikes clause.

3). use rapid spin.

[Vega]

iwas goin to ignore this thread completely until i noticed someone said something about a Spikes clause?? wtf would that do?? how would it be done?? how would it restrict the use of Spikes?? and most importantly, why??

[Red Angel]

Originally posted by ThePariah
1). Haze was never popular in GSC.

Well, it wasn't popular if you planned on getting owned by the first Curselax/Scizor/Growtheon you ran into. Othewise, almost every team I've played after the first two months of G/S' release, both IRL and with NetBattle, has had Haze or some form of pseudo-hazing.

Originally posted by Vega
iwas goin to ignore this thread completely until i noticed someone said something about a Spikes clause?? wtf would that do?? how would it be done?? how would it restrict the use of Spikes?? and most importantly, why??

There may well be a Spikes Clause for the exact same reason there is/was a Sleep/Freeze Clause, An Evasion Clause, a 1HKO clause... basically, because some people can't deal with Spikes and therefore decide "if we can't deal with it, let's refuse to fight against it!" I'm not saying there WILL be one, but it looks kinda likely, doncha think?

[Vega]

i guess ppl could say they dont want to battle a team with Spikes. but it would be pointless to have a 'clause' for something so easily countered

[Powarun]

Okay what about cheaters, huh. I might as well force a Mewtwo have spikes roar, psychic and some flamethrower. Now that would be a deadly spiker. Spikers are for the people who are afraid to lose.

[Vega]

o_0 why would anyone waste all of Mewtwo's capabilities on Spiking anyway?? adn since most ppl here are discussing possibilities for the rsbot, thats impossible since it doesnt let you cheat like that.

on thing about being afraid to lose, when you are battling you want to win right?? thus are afraid to lose even if you're not using Spikes so thats a pointless argument.

if you have problems with Spikes, just get a Rapid Spinner, nuff said. there are a lotta things that can get Rapid Spin in rs. its that simple.

[The Muffin Man]

That is EXACTLY the reason, Redangel. Can't possibly be because it's annoying to be OHKOed 6 times, or frozen 5 times, or an entire team asleep, or unable to touch the opponent. Nope. It's because people can't handle it...


Newsflash - if a Pokemon can't hit it(Evasion, Freeze, Sleep) it can't Pseudo-Haze it...

On to the SpikeClasue thing - It's a great idea. Curselax has shown we shouldn't have to model our entire team around ONE Pokemon.

Besides, Skarm gets popular, along comes Magneton w/ Magnet Pull. It's alot more versatile than using a crappy attack.

[Arael]

There are actually only 3 things that get it, donphan and claydol are not exactly staples and starmie has more important moves.

[Bug Catcher Daniel]

should i use the glalie(it looks sooo awesome ) cus well all his base stats r 80... his weakness r .fire, rock, fighting.. but its awesome cus of icebeam cus we r gonna have a lot of teams with dragons...(lati@s, salamence, flygon, altaria) u see, so:

toxic, spikes, icebeam, crunch/lightsreen/protect

crunch is a great for sp attacking but lightscreen to resist more turn... same for protect.... help please a good item for this set?

hail would hit the other team members.. but.. how knows? maybe it could work

[Gligar_Man]

well... it loox like people have resorted to using hazers again... etc. that will cut down on some possible clauses, lol... im pretty sure some of the older clauses will be in affect, i agree on the curselax thing, but spikes isnt that hard to get around, mainly most popular spikers = weak to fire... o_O come one... how hard is that to get around... and you can easily get in there while siking they lose tempo and it can be counterred, and taking out the opponents rapid spinner will be all much more important, ... but i agree with you on many lvls tmm, and it is sort of our fault for resorting to psuedohazing over hazing a bit, because of the more versatile pogeys that are capable of that...

[jusrelac]

Originally posted by Arael
There are actually only 3 things that get it, donphan and claydol are not exactly staples and starmie has more important moves.

Of the obtainables... that can naturally learn it.

There are more obtainables that can be bred Rapid Spin: Sandslash, Tentacruel, Armaldo

and even more unobtainables that can learn or be bred it: Blastoise, Cloyster, Hitmonlee, Hitmonchan, Hitmontop, Kabutops, Forretress, Delibird

So in reality you have a bunch of options for rapid spinners... atleast as many as there are spikers.

[Fanha]

blah blah blah CACTURNE'S EVASION GAME blah blah blah

If this is just referring to Sand Veil, as I have been told since I was unsure when I saw people going on and on about it like it was important, let me point out that only lowers accuracy by 8%, which is less than Brightpowder does. What a silly thing to rave about.

[Imhere4u2die]

This may seem like a stupid question, but what are pseudohazers? I have seen them referred to a lot.