Vitamins and When To Use Them

[CAMountainSnake]

I never know when to pump my Pokemon full of Vitamins. Just recently, I poured about 51 Vitamins into my Level 5 Lapras because I heard it improves EV's and stats, however nothing changed. When I wait for them to get higher up level-wise it always says "It Will Have No Effect". When is the right time to pump them up?

[andyizcool]

You should use Vitimins before you start battling any other Pokemon so you have your EVs in place. So if you wanted a Special Sweeper you would use 10 Calcium and 10 Carbos so you already have 100 Special Attack and 100 Speed EVs. You would then battle certain Pokemon to raise these EVs upto 252 so it's maxed out EV wise.

[Cheesey]

Yeah, what Andy said is perfectly correct. I just wanted to add though that since the game doesn't keep track of EVs for you that you will have to make sure you keep track of them yourself. And also, if you pour your vitamins into a pokemon then it will change the EVs, but you may not notice a difference. But rest assured, because a difference definitely has been made. EVs are just kinda confusing like that!

[CAMountainSnake]

So then wouldn't it be beneficial to max out a Pokemon on ALL five vitamins, rather than just specialize them?

[Aarkan]

No. Vitamins work directly with the EV system.
Each vitamin adds 10 EV to the selected stat maxing out at 100 EV's on that stat. So what people do is use 10 vitamins for the EV's they're specializing in (252 or 129 in) and then train the rest of them the hard way.
What you did effectively "ruined" your lapras because it's stats are more spread out into "useless" stats then the stats that will help you a LOT more.

[rinku]

The reason you didn't see much improvement in your Lapras at L5 is that effort adds 1/100th of a point per level per 4 full effort points. 10 vitamins at L5 will add about 1.25 points of stat at the time. By the time it reaches L100 that will equate to 25 stat points.

[CAMountainSnake]

At what level do the Vitamins become non-functional?

[Aarkan]

at 100 EV for that stat.

[CAMountainSnake]

Then is it possible that a Pokemon trained to Level 100 with NO vitamins could be as stong as one that has had the treatment?

[Animelee]

Yeah, if you trained them to Level 100 by battling, they would most likely have all 510 EPs. Giving them vitamins just helps speed things up in the EP training department.

If you had a Flygon that you have 51 vitamins to at Level 50, it would have all 510 of its EPs.

If you trained a Flygon from Level 50 to Level 100 by battling wild Pokémon, it would most likely have all 510 EPs, depending on how many Pokémon you battled, and how many points each Pokémon gave you.

But stats differ from Pokémon to Pokémon, so even if both Flygon had all 510 EPs by Level 100, things like IV points and natures would come into play.

Edit: Oh, wait, do you mean a Pokémon with no EP training compared to a Pokémon with all 510 EV points? Well, once again, if one Flygon has 0 EV points, and one has all 510 EV points, the one with all its EV points will most likely be stronger than the one with zero. Once again, IV points also come into play.

[CAMountainSnake]

Are Pokemon trained the old fashio, like battling against the Elite Four ad nauseum weaker than say Pokemon who battle only certain Pokemon like Wild Zubats for speed?

PS: I've heard of EV's, what are IV's? I hope there aren't any of those huge equations involved.

[Silent Dragonfly]

No Pokémon will be especially weak as long as it's EVs are maxed. Whether you just train randomly or specify your EVs it won't be weak.

Pure rare candies won't gain EVs, and since EVs can't be obtained by battling they WILL be weaker.

EDIT: IVs are hidden values randomly selected from birth/encounter for each stat, ranging between 0 and 31. By Lv100 the stat will have that many extra. They also together decide your Hidden Power's Type and Power (30 to 70)

[rinku]

Basically there are five things that determine final stats:

Level - the most important one, but simply the higher the better. Not hidden.

Base Value - constant for all pokemon of a given species. Hidden but known. Every point of Base Value adds 2 stat points at L100.

Individual Value (IV) - number between 0 and 31 for each stat that is randomly set when the pokémon is created and never changes from then on.
This is the main factor that makes some pokémon potentially stronger than others. Hidden, but able to be calculated if all other factors known. Easiest to calculate prior to effort training. Every IV point adds 1 stat point at L100.
Pokémon inherit 2 or 3 (always 3 in Emerald and usually 3 in the other versions) of their six IVs from one of their parents, so breeding strong pokémon and not breeding weak ones is the way to (slowly) improve your stable.

Effort Value (EV) - number between 0 and 255 on any given stat, with a total cap of 510 for a given pokémon on all stats. Hidden, but you can keep track of effort earned based on vitamins used or pokémon defeated. Every 4 full effort points adds 1 stat point at L100. This is the only way you can effect the final stats apart from evolving it to another type (which changes base stats) - every other factor is set at birth.

Nature - +10% to one stat, -10% to another after all other calculations. Not hidden. Note that putting effort into a favoured stat is a good thing as the +10% will apply to that effort as well.

Without going into the formulas, all you need to do is:

(a) Select the pokémon of your desired species with the most suitable nature and best stats for its level. You can use Rare Candies to level up lower level contenders if you want to compare directly.

(b) Effort train to the desired effort split

(c) Level up to the desired level. After full effort has been earned, you can freely battle against anything and it will not affect the final stats.

[CAMountainSnake]

Just to get an idea, is my Blaziken on par or is it horribly weak? These EV's and IVs have thrown off how I usually do business.

Level =100, Nature=Lonely, HP=303, Attack=297, Defense=162, Sp Attack=245, Sp Defense=169, Speed=215.

[rinku]

Well, assuming even spread of effort, it appears to have weak Attack and Special Attack and good Speed.

More than that, I can't say. However, at the end of the day, as a Lonely Blaziken its strengths are still Attack, Special Attack and Speed, with weak Defense, just like all other Lonely Blaziken (regardless of training). It may not have as much Attack as it is possible for a Blaziken can have (372 for the record), but 297 is still competitive.

I assume this was your starter? It's fine. It has a good nature for its type, boosting a strong stat and slighting a weak one. Since it has a choice of excellent STAB physical and elemental moves, no effort has been wasted, since it can use both its Attack and Special Attack. Use it, love it.

[CAMountainSnake]

Thanks a lot, Rinku. You made my day. I had a whole feeling my whole Ruby team wasn't competitive because I don't really take EV training too seriously.

[CAMountainSnake]

So, I am still not clear. If I gave 20 vitamins to a Special Sweeper at Level 5 would that be as beneficial as giving the vitamins to it at Level 25? Is there a certain level where vitamins will not work?

[rinku]

Yes, it would be just as effective. It does not matter *when* you earn effort, from vitamins or experience. The effect will be the same in the end.

What a lot of people get wrong is thinking that vitamins add a certain number of points only when they are used. In fact, they are effectively adding to the points you will gain per level from then on as well as giving you some points per level already achieved.

When you get a report that a pokémon has increased its stats, what it is actually reporting is the difference between the previous derived calculation and the current one. The game does not directly add points to the stats but recalculates them from the five affecting factors. Recalculation is done when a vitamin is used, when a pokémon gains a level or when it goes in the box (since the game only tracks "current values" for the six in the team).

[Jeff]

I heard that that's no longer true about the boxes in G3

According to something I saw on Pokemon Forever a while ago, the "box trick" doesn't work in RS and up because these games actually save stat values while your pokemon are in the PC.

[rinku]

No, it still does it. I've just tested it on an Aerodactyl I've been effort training. Immediately prior to putting him in the box his stats were:

83 83 58 37 55 70

As soon as I placed him in the box:

83 84 61 37 56 70

What *has* changed is that effort is no longer earned from battles at L100. You can use the "box trick" to update L100 pokemon as before, but the only way to add effort is with vitamins.

[CAMountainSnake]

So with this..."box trick"...one can increase the stats of level 100 Pokemon? If so, how is this possible?

[Poryhedron]

So with this..."box trick"...one can increase the stats of level 100 Pokemon? If so, how is this possible?

Bear with me as I explain Battle Stats in Pokémon; I promise I'll get to the Box Trick at the end. Or, if you already understand all there is to know about EVs, you can skip to the end.

As you may know, there are four main factors that affect a pokémon's stats (Actually, there are five in the Advance Generation, the new one being Natures, but the Box Trick has been around since RBY.) Two of them are species and level; these are obvious. The other two are hidden values, though. The first are called Individual Values, or IVs for short (some call them DVs. Although nobody truly knows what the D stands for, these are the same thing.) IVs are like natural talent. Some people are just plain better at some things than other people; they're born with a knack for it. Pokémon are the same. Each stat has its own IV, and a pokémon's IVs are generated when you first meet it and are thereafter set in stone. Different pokémon of the same species can have wildly different IVs, though.
The last factor is Effort Values, or EVs. (Actually, in RBYGSC they were called Stat EXP, and worked a bit differently, but they had the same basic effect. Everything in this paragraph applies to both versions.) Like IVs, there is one for each stat. These hidden values represent training. Not just experience - that's level - but actual training. Every time you defeat an enemy pokémon, your team members earn both EXP, Experience Points that help you build level, and EP, Effort Points that help you build EVs. The EP you earn depend, both in amount and in EV(s) affected, on the species of the opponent (not the level, at all, just the species.) Also, HP Up, Protein, Iron, Calcium, Zinc and Carbos boost EVs. The reason they stop working eventually, especially at high levels, is because you can only raise EVs so far before they max out...and the reason Rare Candies don't seem to boost your stats as much as battle is because Rare Candies only raise level without raising EVs.

Now then...Pokémon stats are generated according to complex equations that involve those factors. Every time your pokémon levels up, the stats get re-calculated from scratch. They don't get re-calculated after every battle, though...that'd be far too anal. So you don't see the effects of raising your EVs until you level up...but if your pokémon has already reached level 100, it'll never level up again. Does this mean the stats will never be updated to show the new Effort you've gathered!?
...nope. There's another time when stats are updated...when you withdraw a pokémon from the PC. So if you want to see your up-to-the-minute current stats, just drop your pokémon into a PC Box, and then take it back out of the Box. You'll see its stats updated with the Effort you've gotten since last time. That's the "Box Trick".

[Gagome]

....
Now then...Pokémon stats are generated according to complex equations that involve those factors. Every time your pokémon levels up, the stats get re-calculated from scratch. They don't get re-calculated after every battle, though...that'd be far too anal. So you don't see the effects of raising your EVs until you level up...but if your pokémon has already reached level 100, it'll never level up again. Does this mean the stats will never be updated to show the new Effort you've gathered!?
...nope. There's another time when stats are updated...when you withdraw a pokémon from the PC. So if you want to see your up-to-the-minute current stats, just drop your pokémon into a PC Box, and then take it back out of the Box. You'll see its stats updated with the Effort you've gotten since last time. That's the "Box Trick".

Basically all what you say is true Poryhedron, except at level 100 the Box Trick no longer works in the Advanced Generation. This has been confirmed numerous times. When a Pokemon reaches level 100 it no longer gets any EXP and hence no EVs.
As Rinku mentioned earlier the only way to increase EVs on a level 100 Pokemon - if it has not already reached the cap of 510 - is using vitamins. If your Pokemon has already got 100 EVs in a certain stat you cannot increase it at level 100 with vitamins and you are stuck. There is no way to increase it battling wild Pokemons.