Until today I didn't realise that "cocoa" is pronounced "coco".

[shazza]

I thought they were two different words. I would never read the "cocoa" out loud as I never knew how to pronounce it.

And until I was 14, I used to think "moderator" (when I read on TPM and forums) was pronounced "modtior". Even sometimes this day I pronounced it habitually in my head as the latter.

And as a child I had to see a speech pathologist. As well as the fact my handwriting was retarded; I was the last to acquire my pen license in Grade 4.

Maybe I suffered minor dyslexia and have overcome it?

[Lady Vulpix]

I've always wondered how people who speak English as their native language manage to organize the language in their minds. You can't tell how something is pronounced by just reading it. When you learn it as a second language you learn that each word is written a certain way and pronounced a certain other way, but how do you manage when you have no reference as to what something would sound like if you read it the way it's written?

[Telume]

I've always wondered how people who speak English as their native language manage to organize the language in their minds. You can't tell how something is pronounced by just reading it. When you learn it as a second language you learn that each word is written a certain way and pronounced a certain other way, but how do you manage when you have no reference as to what something would sound like if you read it the way it's written?

As a native English speaker, I always organize my thoughts in English in my head. I don't know about everyone else.

Which is what makes it REALLY tricky to switch between English and Spanish sometimes, ah the wonders of being multi-lingual.

[Jeff]

I've always wondered how people who speak English as their native language manage to organize the language in their minds. You can't tell how something is pronounced by just reading it. When you learn it as a second language you learn that each word is written a certain way and pronounced a certain other way, but how do you manage when you have no reference as to what something would sound like if you read it the way it's written?

There is a somewhat of a regular pattern. Some letters and groups of letters always make the same sound for example, so kids who are learning to read are often taught to sound simple words out. As they get more advanced, they're taught the subtleties like how 'c' can sound like a 's' or 'k', or how 'g' can sometimes sound like 'j', so at that point, you just have to learn how words are pronounced on a case by case basis. Sometimes, when you see an unfamiliar word, you might get lucky and be able to figure it out by stringing sounds together, but sometimes you'll come across a word with parts like that. You can always try different possible pronunciations to see if it's a word you've heard before, but if it's completely unfamiliar and you really want to know how it's pronounced, well, there's always the dictionary.

Yeah, it's complicated.

[shazza]

This is true. I presume my problem may be more common than I first thought. As I try to extend my vocabulary verbally, I occasionally go on pronunciation websites which give an auditory example on how to do so. Often I'm rather surprised on the differences on how it is meant to sound like, and how it sounds like it in my head.

The average person is able to talk more fluently than they are able to write, often spelling mistakes and grammatical errors being their weakness. I, on the other hand, am the opposite. Though I can talk and be confident, deep down I am introverted. I guess that has something to do with it.

[Magmar]

English is really tricky, not going to lie. One nasty habit that we use is to take random nouns and string them together to identify one specific thing.

The worst part of English is "silent letters", which sets it apart from Spanish in that sometimes we'll string together four or more letters to identify one sound (such as Burrough being burr-o) and having the same word pronounced differently depending on its meaning, but having nothing in the written language to indicate which pronunciation to use (Latin languages use accent marks).

Our vernacular is chock full of slang. See, I said "chock full" but I could have just said "full" and conveyed the same meaning. I don't even know the inherent meaning behind the word "chock" other than that there is a type of coffee called "Chock Full 'o' Nuts" or something like that.

We also have too many ways to say the same thing. For example, the time 4:20 could be read as "four-twenty", "twenty past," "twenty after", "twenty past four", etc.

Blargh English!

[Blademaster]

What's a 'pen license?'

[Lady Vulpix]

I believe all languages have slang and different ways to say the same things. It's the writing that makes English different.

[Heald]

one of my friends used to genuinely pronounce 'cocoa' as 'coco-ah'. funny as fuck whenever he said 'coco-ah beans', which wasn't often but once he said it once we all took the piss anyway for a long time after that

[Zak]

"Modtior"? I'm not sure how that would be pronounced, but I'm gonna assume you meant "moditor" since that makes more sense (Not trying to be a smartass or anything, really did take me a while to come to that conclusion).

I know some people who say "an" before all words that start with H. Like "I live in an house". Probably because of "half an hour" but the H is silent there.

[Heald]

WHY DOES EVERYONE NOW POST SHIT POSTS IN MISC AND GOOD POSTS IN MT MOON.

I'm seriously going to have to address this.

[firepokemon]

WHY DOES EVERYONE NOW POST SHIT POSTS IN MISC AND GOOD POSTS IN MT MOON.

I'm seriously going to have to address this.

Because Shazza is dyslexic.

[Magmar]

Because Shazza is dyslexic.

Shazza puts the sexy in dyslexia, and you're just jealous.

[firepokemon]

Shazza puts the sexy in dyslexia, and you're just jealous.

Just because I'm out of the closet doesn't mean you have to fucking out me as jealous of Shazza being a sexy dyslexic person bitch.

[Telume]

WHY DOES EVERYONE NOW POST SHIT POSTS IN MISC AND GOOD POSTS IN MT MOON.

I'm seriously going to have to address this.

Normal person:

Mt. Moon = SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM

Misc = Discussions.

Shazza:

Mt. Moon = Misc

Misc = Bacon

[kazr]

Normal person:

Telume = Telume

[kurai]

let me help you there

[Jeff]

yay! postcount++

...

oh wait.

[shazza]

My apologies. I was actually deliberated whether or not to put this in Miscellaneous Stuff or not. Feel free to move it.

Zak: Yes, I made a typo. Moditor. Rhymes with monitor.

[abunaidesu]

deliberating*

[shazza]

deliberating*

It was deliberate.

[Katie]

my dog's name is cocoa

pronounced coco

[kurai]

i've decided that this topic warrants a worthwhile post

when considering the way language 'is organized in the mind' of a speaker, you can take note of the uneventful concept that language predates writing, so from there you can make the reasonable assumption that such mental organization (that is, when considering the items to which meaning binds) would be based on sounds rather than letter-and-word text. these sound notions are specified as phonemes (which vary in usefulness for each language).

but there is a problem when you're looking to read things, of course. ordinary alphabets are not arranged in phonetic format (this is not only the case with 'the writing in english'). so the written english language is an approximation with infinite, unknowable, historically generated exceptions that will confound any reader. pretty much everyone knows the smell of a ghoti market.

luckily there is hope! the set of phoneme combinations is not infinite in a given language, but in fact is restricted by a set of rules (which pretty much define the parameters of words in the spoken language - it is necessary to know these rules to know the language). these rules are examined in the field of phonotactics. for an english example, think of the final sound in the word 'wang' - no syllable can begin with this sound. using that sound in that position would make it sound like impossible gibberish to a native speaker, but it can be perfectly reasonable for others.

syllables themselves are organized in specific ways, between onset and rime (these are related to where vowel sounds are). importantly, there are also language-specific rules that define where, which, and how many sounds there can be in a syllable in relation to the vowel. so the 'stringing of sounds together' is actually a complicated task if you are looking for valid combinations in a given language.

this task is an essential one to any novice reader, however, as it is unconsciously performed through the practice of subvocalization (where your head speaks the words out loud to you). having no other sound reference at that point, you are forced to use your internal phonotactical capacity, as well as knowledge of the transcription of other words (and statistical commonality of pronunciations).

so the problem being brought here is actually universal to readers of non-phonetic alphabets and can only be solved through the artifice of focused education (following the above outline, reading would have to be an artificial skill on top of the universal language capacity).

[Zak]

Moving to Misc... but Heald, why didn't you yourself?

[Blademaster]

Yay for postcount!

Also I still don't know what a pen license is.