Religion in Schools and the Effect on Students

[The Blue Avenger]

So, obligatory stuff outta the way first. I’m doing a project on religion in schools, specifically how it affects students. I’m coming to you guys for opinions. If I quote you, you don’t have to worry – it’ll be anonymous. Also, to clear up something because it came up somewhere else, yes, I am using other research than just random people on the internet. Yes, my plan of work originally did call for polling people.

Now to the good stuff.

For those of you that have experience in both religious and secular schools, what can you say about the differences between the two in terms of the quality of the education? How about the faculty – how different were they in terms of effectiveness, openness, helpfulness, and so on? How did the schools differ in terms of instilling morals and values?

Have any of you ever suffered discrimination in school because of your religious choices, either from the students, the faculty, or anyone else? Have you ever seen anyone else suffer in such a way?

To make this a discussion, I’ll start off first. I’ve only ever been to secular schools, so I can’t comment too much on the differences. However, when I was in elementary school, I remember declaring openly that I was an athiest (I’m an agnostic now, for the record) – I was teased brutally as a result. Like, other students actually ganged up on me and started yelling at me to tell them what was wrong with me. That has sort of left a mark. However, I also recognize that my experience is not the norm and probably has to do with me living in the Bible Belt more than anything else.

Anyone else have thoughts on this or stories to tell? Any anecdotes you can give would help my project quite a lot.

[Mikachu Yukitatsu]

I don't actually know how careful we have to be now, religion discussion have had a bad reputation in the past. Your starter post has kinda objective approach, and I find it good and will try to go with it.

So, here in Finland most of us are taught Christianity at school, and other religions are quite ignored. The 6-13 year old Ala-aste (Lower Level) students don't really know anything about the alternatives. The effect of this can be argued, little children aren't supposed to be able to choose their religion. We have 9 years of compulsory education here in Finland, and only one year, the 7th form (children usually go there whan they are 13) is the only year there we are taught other religions as well. Then we have this "Elämänkatsomustieto", a word monster meaning something like "The Attitude of Life Philosophy" which can be chosen instead of religious studies, I don't actually know who is to decide which one the child is learning.

I don't recall anybody teasing anybody too openly because of the religion at the schools where I've gone to, except for a few cases. But they do talk bad about Laestadianists, denominationalists and such with friends. And my mates were a bit surprised when they found out I wasn't going to confirmation school. One atheist said they go to confirmation school in order to laugh at the Christianity and that made me wonder too. I was a polytheistic plus I wanted to be different and that's why I didn't go. Now I am sceptic, but, paradoxially, like to speak about religions with pathos. My worst mistake is the attitude "If you're a Christian, why don't you do everything as The Bible suggests?" and that's a critical mistake because it's impossible to perfectly follow The Bible.

[Arnen]

I've never been to a religious school, but a year or two ago my sister (a Wicca) tried to start a sort of... alternative religions club at school (the plan being to learn about - as objectively as possible - and discuss religions like Wicca, Druidism, Buddhism, Hindu, and other religions that aren't as common in the area), and wasn't allowed to... but the FCA (Fellowship of Christian Athletes) can hold meetings where they read/discuss the Bible and pray in the home ec room.

As a Pastafarian (don't know what it is? - look it up) who often identifies as atheist, I've never really gotten any ill treatment in school because of my beliefs. My sister (again, Wicca) has told me that for the most part, when she tells people of her religion, she's mostly met with genuine interest and polite questions, and has even met a handful of people who identify with her beliefs. According to her, the people who harrass her and call her a witch or whatever are mostly just jerks looking for something to bother her about, who would be teasing her for something else either way.

*self-edits end of own post to avoid religious flame-wars* >.>

[Dark-San]

I was forced to undergo education, both my Primary and Secondary years, in an Anglican School. In that 10 years although, we were made to undergo church services and morning prayers. Although the Muslims were excused from all those, the rest of us aren't given any leeway. It didn't influence me in anyway. Although it must be the due fact that I am very stubborn guy by nature.

Education- wise, I don't find much difference. After graduating with an 'O' Levels from my Secondary School, I went on to do a diploma in Polytechnic. So by advancing towards a higher level of education, there is no chance that I can compared between the level of standard. Morally- wise, I see no differences except for a couple of incidents that almost made my blood boil.

For instance, I have encounter several occasion when Christian students particularly a few ones think that they are superior to that of the non- Christian. During my Primary School, I was made fun of. And was occasionally labeled as a dumb kid. It was until my final mathematics test that I topped the class and kicks everyone's ass. Also during my secondary days, there are also a few guys from the Boy's Brigade that sometimes made several sarcastic remarks to me. I ignored them, treating them as retards.

Well these things happened once in a while, but I can easily conclude that those actions only happen because those guys are still just immature in their thinking. We are like 11 to 16 years old brat back then. ^.^

As for your assignment with regards to religions and schools, it is better to gather newspaper reports particularly the ones from the South East Asia region. You will find the linkage between terrorism and it links back to schools found in Indonesia and Southern Thailand.

Looking around, I guess I am the only one so far that is the closest ideal to the subject that you wish to interview for your assignment. If you have anymore specific questions, you can feel free to pm me about them.

Oh btw if you are wondering, my official religion is Buddhism.

[DarkTemplarZero]

I love when people seriously identify themselves as Pastafarian.

But yeah, here in New Jersey, religious education is pretty uncommon. Where I was from there were 2 Catholic boys' schools and 1 Catholic girls' school. The Catholic boys schools were exceedingly good at football, baseball, and basketball, and most of their students were rather jock-like. The Catholic girls school was unsurprisingly known for how incredibly easy the girls are.

I spent up until 8th grade in a public school, where religion wasn't particularly a big deal, and then 9th-12th in a science/technology magnet high school, where there were maybe 4 or 5 kids out of a class of 300 who were devoutly religious. As such, morals and values and that junk were never a big deal in my high school, we had a mandatory class on ethics as freshmen which everybody felt was remarkably useless, but other than that they weren't big on trying to teach us morality.

[Blademaster]

I was forced to go to a Catholic school through to the seventh grade. It was like a brainwashing institution. Morning prayer, Pledge of Allegiance (Church and State separation FTW.), scheduled bathroom break and ONLY scheduled, after-bathroom prayer (I shit you not.), lunchtime prayer, RECESS prayer, sheduled bathroom break again, prayer before school let out, prayer homework, day in and day out for eight years. Getting out of your seat without permission was a capital offense, talking out of turn was strictly prohibited, damage of any kind to school material was met by chastising and punishment...

Keep religion out of school. That's my input. Children are impressionable. They don't deserve to be brainwashed into believing fairy tales and militant discipline. Furthermore, religious enforcement can have an adverse effect on the intelligent - I had to leave that school when I was 11 because my grades were slipping. Not because I was dumb, but because everyone else was. I was so bored with the tired religious forcefeeding that put all other manner of education years behind (We didn't learn basic biology until 6th grade.), that I had to be home-schooled for several years just to become mentally-stimulated again. To this day, I still have trouble learning even simple things (for my age) like intermediate algebra because I was taught so slowly and inadequately as a child.

[Asilynne]

First of all, Blade, I seriously dont blame you now for not being religious, not that I really blamed you before, but now at least I know why your so against it. lol

BTW Hypo, yay for being agnostic! Its understandable some people would find it hard to believe in religion, but I like the agnostic people the best because they at least acknowledge the possibility. Everythings possible and no one will know for sure til we're dead XD Anyway as far as religion in schools, what Blade said is very true. Rudy also went to a catholic school but only for 3 years during middle school, but that was enough. He got teased a lot and made fun of by the other kids because he came from a public school and they looked down on him for that. Also, he didnt go to church growing up so everything they taught was so foreign to him, and as a result the teachers would even single him out and wanted to hold him back a year. The beef I have with the catholic religion (and most established churches) is that they dont understand they cant FORCE someone to believe in God, theyre so caught up in having to "save" everyone whos "lost" that all they really succeed in doing is driving them away from it.

While Im not in favor of keeping religion totally out of school I am in favor of keeping it from being required. Religious education is up to the parents, it shouldnt be forced upon kids because Blades right they are impressionable, and when their older they can study all the religions of the world and choose the one that fits best with their mindset. Religion shouldnt be driven into anyones head.

As for my own experiences, I grew up in a christian household, and Ive been to so many different denominations churches because my mom couldnt decide what she wanted to be, so I dont consider myself to be any denomination and I dont go to church. Ive seen how some christians either in school or at church treat other people bad just because of what they believe or dont believe. or how they dress, or how much money their parents have and I decided worshipping publically wasnt for me. I pray on my own and I dont need church for that. Also my family was rather poor growing up and we didnt have a lot of good sunday clothes, and my dad has a long beard and works as a mechanic so they pretty much judged us by our appearance which isnt very christian-like >.>
And unfortunately at school I also got criticized for BEING a christan, we had this christian club called the E.D.G.E club that I went to twice since I was invited by my friend and people would tease us and be loud on purpose while we were praying and it was just all around not worth the stress to go when I can pray at home. Also their signs got torn down and wrote on which wasnt very nice but basically high schoolers will pick any reason to make fun of someone lol. I think religion shouldnt be forced into schools but I also think people should be allowed to pray to whatever god they want in school without retribution so long as it doesnt disrupt class (aka as long as its quiet). Also to make everyone happy both theories of creation (evolution and creationism) should be taught in school and let the individual decide which they believe, because all in all both are just theories and not fact so theres no harm in learning both.

ANYWAY sorry Im so long winded, the short answer to your question is, yes Ive seen discrimination in schools based on peoples religion, I dont know if its like this everywhere but in my school if you were gay or athiest you were cool, and if you were christian then you were a hater and should be punished for any kind of religious talk you may or may not try to share. In an ideal world we could all get along despite having different beliefs but this world is far from ideal >.>

[Lady Vulpix]

I went to a religious school when I was in kindergarden (age 3 to 5). I didn't make much of it, because other issues were more important. I learned very little about religion at that time, like the story of Moses's life and a few celebrations. At the same time, my parents at home kept telling me there was no God, so by then I used to think God belonged to "the other" religion. Not very effective as you can see. Back then I also used to think that half the people were Jewish and the other half were Christian.

My primary and secondary schools were secular. My background and beliefs were not an issue there, except for an incident with a girl in first year of secondary school who had been raised in an antisemitic family and tried to make my life a hell.

Then most people at university have been strongly atheistic, to the point that some of them laugh at people who believe that souls exist by themselves rather than as a result of physical and chemical reactions. Others just raise an eyebrow and say "ah, right, you're one of those". I've often felt uncomfortable in such situations. And, of course, many people believe that religion is inherently bad, and the cause of most of the world's evils.

Fortunately, I can think for myself. Which has led me to disagree with just about everyone (perhaps literally everyone) I know as far as beliefs are concerned. But I don't really mind, as long as people respect other people's views and don't try to force them to change.

As far as education goes, I think it's good for children to know about religions (different religions, if possible, and I'm including atheism here because I've seen that atheists can be as radical as the most religious), and to be given the chance to decide what to believe rather than being forced. I don't know how feasible that is, but I think it would be the best option.

[Gavin Luper]

For those of you that have experience in both religious and secular schools, what can you say about the differences between the two in terms of the quality of the education? How about the faculty – how different were they in terms of effectiveness, openness, helpfulness, and so on? How did the schools differ in terms of instilling morals and values?

Have any of you ever suffered discrimination in school because of your religious choices, either from the students, the faculty, or anyone else? Have you ever seen anyone else suffer in such a way?

Anyone else have thoughts on this or stories to tell? Any anecdotes you can give would help my project quite a lot.

Interesting project. I'm happy to help, though this ends up being quite long. But if any part helps you, go ahead and use it!

I spent my entire primary and secondary school life in the Catholic education system: as such, I got a fairly heavy dose of religious education, so I can comment on that; but I have no real experience of secular schooling.

I enjoyed primary school in many aspects. The religious slant was strong, obviously: aside from English, Social Studies, Maths, Science, PE and the other subjects, we were taught about the stories of the Bible and teachings of Jesus and learnt about the sacraments of reconciliation, holy communion and confession during class times; we sang hymns on a weekly basis and I'm pretty sure there was a morning prayer/grace. Retrospectively, the thing I find most unusual for a school of such a generally strict denomination was that the Headmistress (a nun) took us through a meditation session every day after lunch, and they were quite new-agey and had nothing to do with doctrine or religious opinions: moreover, it was about closing your eyes, palms facing up, breathing deeply and imagining yourself calmly relaxing in your favourite place, or something like that. I can't imagine things like that having been done at a public school (though I could be wrong) but, in any case, that might be one difference between a secular school and a private one that focuses on religion/spirituality.

The problems in the system became more apparent to me when I went to high school. There are only a couple of examples I can think of, but they do stick in my mind. The first is when I was I took Physics in year 11 and 12: I remember my Physics teacher becoming really, really frustrated because he wasn't allowed to talk to us about his personal opinions on the creation of the universe and a whole host of other scientific theories. Basically, we often had long and really riveting discussions in that class about all kinds of theories and so on, but when we asked the teacher what he thought, he wasn't allowed to tell us or (from what I deduced) he would be fired. My understanding is that the teachers are allowed to teach us all the scientific theories in their completeness, but they can't actually make personal comment on whether they believe in, say, the Big Bang theory, or not, because that would counteract the theory of creation. I remember being really annoyed that day, because I could have heard a very clever and educated man tell us his views on the universe, existence, etc, but because it was a religious school, that opportunity was barred. (Then again, perhaps even secular schools have rules that bar teachers from sharing their personal beliefs with students; it could be something to investigate.)

The other thing that sticks in my mind is my experience in Religious Education (R.E.) classes. While the time spent on religious education per week was reduced to only about 2 hours, it was still compulsory for all students, regardless of belief (though, it was a Catholic school, so I guess parents knew exactly what they were putting their kids in for). Now, I can't speak for every Catholic school, but I think because mine was 1) in Australia and 2) in country Australia, the general attitude toward religion (or in fact, anything) was generally pretty relaxed and apathetic: so the things we learnt about were the works of various charities, social justice issues, environmental and human rights issues, general Catholic doctrine and about the beliefs of various other religions/belief systems, such as Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism; I can't remember if atheism was allowed to be taught about or not, but my guess is not. In any case, these religions were discussed and taught about, but obviously only during one class a term, perhaps, or per year. By contrast, I imagine secular schools either deal with all major religions fairly equally in terms of how much time they spend discussing them; or, perhaps more likely, they remove themselves from all religious discussion? I'm not sure on that one.

Anyhow, during the course of learning about Pope John Paul II's (I think it was him) revisions to Catholic doctrine I discovered that homosexual people were officially 'loved by God', but were 'called to lead chaste lives', that is, you can be gay, but you can't have sex. I thought that was really incongruent to my personal beliefs (at that point, when I was around 14 I guess, I thought you should have sex with whoever you love, male or female. Oh, the purity...), but I don't think I spoke up about it at the time.

I also found myself furious and at odds with an opinionated relief teacher one time when I was in upper school. We had evidently had to do some reading/discussion on homosexuality or a homosexual character in a film maybe, and this woman, in her 60s, began to spurt her views on homosexuality at us. The one that sticks in my mind was when she said how the thought of it (homosexuality) made her stomach churn and made her feel absolutely sick. Even though I probably didn't really identify myself as gay at that point, I was indignant, because she knew that she was safe to make those kind of bigoted comments at a Catholic institution, and that nobody would lodge a complaint about it because the school wouldn't take it seriously. So, I guess there's another difference between the private and public systems, or at least, I imagine it would be more openly diverse and anti-discriminatory in the public system.

Okay, that ended up being a hell of a lot longer than I meant it to be. It's five in the morning but I'm not tired enough to sleep. ^_^

tl;dr version:

I was educated in the Catholic school system but I believe I am a pretty independent thinker. Though I found it adequate, I think it's very arguable that a governing ideological position can place limits on the students' intellectual growth, such as in the area of Physics, and marginalise students who have different religious beliefs, or those who are homosexual. In an effort to forward religious views and a sense of spirituality to students, religious schools may, to some degree, place more importance on the conveyance of doctrine than fully exposing students to all the knowledge and theories available.

-faints-

[Heald]

I don't really have much comment on this, at least from personal experience. I was born and raised in the UK and brought through state education, which generally has no religion at all in it. Up until I was 11, about the only thing we studied in school that could be considered 'religious education' was the Lord's Prayer. In Secondary School, we actually got dedicated classes, except they were called 'Religious Studies' and we mostly discussed philosophy and the customs of other religions, such as Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam and Judaism. When I was around 15, we began studying creationism and intelligent design in a pure study environment, there was no pressure for or against supporting these ideas, although it was obvious our teacher thought creationism was a bit of a joke. At the same time, in Biology classes, we learned about evolution and such in a purely scientific context. When I was 17, I opted to continue doing Religious Studies and my modules consisted of philosophy of religion and studying the New Testament, although mostly from a historical point of view.

My school itself had assemblies where twice a week we'd meet, the headmaster would make announcements and we'd sing a hymn and say a prayer, however, it was entirely optional to attend these and you could exempt yourself if you wanted to. However, out of an entire year of about 100 boys, only about 2 people ever exempted themselves, and they were basically just the worst kinds of atheists, you know, the ones who cry about Christians preaching and such and then all they ever do is whine about religion and are generally just closed-minded twats. Otherwise, the rest of us would just go along, hum along to the hymn and nod off during the prayer. However, this was about as religious as the school ever got and there was never a religious vibe in the school. There were only Christians and Atheists at our school anyway so we never had to worry about pandering to Muslims or Hindus.

However, one thing that has pissed me off in the UK is a lot of schools in areas that have Muslim populations (generally lower-income areas, since most Muslims in the UK live off benefits and are here illegally anyway) have started to only serve Halal-meat in their kitchens, which frankly disgusts me. The UK is officially a Christian country and if more people knew how inhumane the treatment of animals is in the halal-killing, they'd definitely object to schools forcing it on their children just because a few Muslims attend their schools. Frankly, if you want to come to our country and our schools, respect our culture and our ways, don't force your backwards customs on us just because our way of doing things doesn't fit in with your beliefs.

A comment on the UK though, there are many private schools (i.e. you have to pay a yearly fee to attend) that class themselves as religious schools, so not only do you have to pay to go, you're expected to be part of that religion too. The most prevalent ones are Christian and Muslim. However, it is mostly only private schools that are also classed as religious schools, hardly any state schools (at least none I'm aware of) are also religious schools. There was a news story a while back that a Muslim school was using textbooks imported from the Middle East and basically incited hatred towards all non-Muslims, especially the Jews. I think the history books were the worst, with nothing about the holocaust in them and calling Israel an illegal state. That's just sick.

[Gavin Luper]

Then most people at university have been strongly atheistic, to the point that some of them laugh at people who believe that souls exist by themselves rather than as a result of physical and chemical reactions. Others just raise an eyebrow and say "ah, right, you're one of those". I've often felt uncomfortable in such situations. And, of course, many people believe that religion is inherently bad, and the cause of most of the world's evils.

Fortunately, I can think for myself. Which has led me to disagree with just about everyone (perhaps literally everyone) I know as far as beliefs are concerned. But I don't really mind, as long as people respect other people's views and don't try to force them to change.

I know exactly how you feel, Gabi, so you can cross "literally" out of that sentence. ^_^

To be honest, I'm not sure which situation would create more of an outburst: holding hands with my boyfriend in front of a bunch of religious relatives, or walking up to some gay university mates wearing a crucifix.

[Lady Vulpix]

That's nice to know, Gavin. We do have different beliefs, but we have similar approaches to them.

And we also have a tendency to post at about the same time.

[Weasel Overlord]

Well, like Heald, I grew up in the UK's school system. Only in my high school, we had assembly every morning, which included prayer and a hymn. Not sure how long they carried the hymns on for, but I was never particularly keen on them. Um, lessee. Oh yeah, my school had quite a lot of muslims in (yeah yeah, poorer area, whatevs), but it was nowhere near the scale of some of the other schools nearby. One of them, I heard, only had about 5 white people in the whole school year. But the school wasn't religious, I don't think.

As for RE (religious education), well, I was one of the very few (about 7 of us) who loved the subject. I haven't had any exposure to religion - my mum isn't religious, in fact, I think only my great grandmas are, and that's cos they're like... 90. So I was really interested to learn about all the different ones. We did uh, Christianity, Hinduism, Sikhism, Judaism and Buddhism and possibly more, up until year 10 when we chose our options and I went for full course RE, where we did half and half, Christianity and Buddhism. We actually had two Buddhist teachers too, which was awesome. They were really cool and nice, and not at all prejudiced or anything.

As far as I remember, there was no prejudice against particular religions, although there was a lot of racial prejudice. Also I have no idea what the muslim kids did during the prayers, etc. I think they were excused? Not sure.

[Heald]

To be honest, I don't really care what religion you are, or aren't as the case may be. What annoys me the most are people that are so needy that they hold onto their beliefs as hard as they can, unwavering and completely ignorant. This goes for both religious people and atheists. In fact, it annoys me more when an atheist does it because they're so incredibly hypocritical about it, calling religious people preachy while at the same time being completely oblivious to how preachy they're being about how much they hate religion.

[mistysakura]

I've been in religious schools all my life (well, except uni). I went to a Catholic primary school in Hong Kong for six years, Catholic secondary school in Hong Kong for half a year, then an Anglican secondary school in Melbourne for five years. In primary school, they took religion pretty seriously. Prayer before school, prayer after school, masses for occasions, that sort of stuff. Religion class wasn't so bad, actually. We studied lots and lots of stories from the Bible, but there was also a focus on learning from these stories and being a good person in general. (Although religion teachers did occasionally scare us by saying we'd go to hell if we weren't good little girls, hehe.) Religion didn't make it into other classes, but that was more because of primary school content (how do you put God into long division?) rather than any conscious separation.

This was Hong Kong, so only two out of about 40 people in my class were actually Christian... but I daresay most of us believed in God. No rebel atheists in primary school.

Secondary school in Hong Kong was much the same. I only lasted half a year there, so not much to report. But we did learn about the Neolithic Man and stuff in history class, so no attempts to block that out.

Secondary school in Australia I remember more of. We sang hymns and stuff in assembly, had Christmas services and stuff, went to chapel about once a term, had Christian groups... Religion classes all the way up to Year 12. In years 7-8 it was all about Christianity, while in years 9-10 we branched out to different religions. But there was a difference between the way we looked at Christianity and the way we looked at other religions. Studying other religions was like studying a foreign culture, while studying Christianity was like studying the truth. Attitudes also depended on individual teachers. Years 11 and 12 were fun. For year 11 we could take elective classes, and having atheistic leanings I took this one called Science and Religion. We actually looked at the way in which they interacted in a very open, unbiased way. In year 12 we had discussion groups, and among other things, we looked at cults and the way in which they brainwashed people. So yeah, once you got to the higher year levels, things became much less preachy and much freer. Oh, in years 11 and 12 I also took this class called Theory of Knowledge, and we talked lots and lots about ethical dilemmas, and no one's point of view ever got rejected. We were also taught evolution in science class, as science.

I'd say half of my school was Christian, with half again being practising Christians. We had Jewish people, Muslims... I was an outspoken atheist in year 9 and nothing ever happened to me. Even my religion teacher never commented when I wrote ridiculously biased essays. And especially among our peers, every belief and non-belief was equal.

The school administration was a bit tighter. They did have to report to the school board, which was highly in favour of instilling Christianity in the students. So I don't blame them. Being a private school, we were exempt from anti-discrimination laws; every teacher had to be Christian. It didn't matter for the students though. Oh, and our school is anti-homosexuality. We weren't allowed to take people of the same sex to the formal, unless they had been at the school in previous years. But they never preached against homosexuality, and only 'dealt with it' when the issue came up among students (their way of dealing with it largely consisted of pretending not to know, so that didn't really matter either).

To sum my secondary school up using Gavin's situation: if some woman came to our school and preached about the horrors of homosexuality, the younger kids would stay frozen in place. Many of the older ones would walk out. The school admin would give us detention for being disrespectful. But many of the teachers would have been very proud of us.

[Arnen]

I love when people seriously identify themselves as Pastafarian.

Hey, aside from the parody factor, I really do believe the Eight I Really Rather You Didn'ts are pretty good guidelines to live by.

Anyway, I thought of something else to note:

Someone mentioned that the Catholic boys' school in their area was filled with jocks. Well, around here, it's apparently pretty common for Catholic schools to basically buy off good atheletes from public schools - paying the kid's parents to send their kid to their school, so their teams will perform better. And the schools are so small, they're grouped in the same divisions with tiny public schools with only a few hundred students, so they constantly dominate. Not exactly fair, but everyone's afraid to call them out on it.

[Mew Master]

I went through the American School system, which has various different approaches and is supposed to be secular. I've been in three different Elementary schools, two different Middle Schools, one High School and of course College.

The most persecution I got was one afternoon while I was at the play. We were waiting around and someone started discussing God. I said I didn't believe in a God, and they felt the need to hound me about it, going and asking "What started the universe?" and then insisting it was God. I'd come around and ask "Where did God come from then?" The answer was "He's always been there." And so on the discussion went.

When I was taking Biology as a Sophmore (10th year), the teacher spoke about how he didn't agree with Evolution, but was required to teach it. I went to High School in a heavy conservative state, which of course, was Kansas. Yeah yeah we have our issues with the state board of education and their fanatic beliefs, but thankfully we voted those idiots off in the last election.

In College I'm more accepted for having an atheistic view on our existence. I have friends of Christian, Catholic, and deist views, and only a few times have any of them made any comments towards me being an Atheist. One which was an insult towards me for having "high moral standards."

I guess the main thing here is that I only felt persecuted by a few individuals in High School, and none of the teachers held back their opinions. We aren't taught Intelligent Design or Creationism because neither are any kind of science. If nothing else, they belong in a history of science or maybe even Philosophy of Science (though even that's a stretch).

[MToolen]

I was waiting for those completely non-religiously-schooled to start up because I'm in that category. I was publicly schooled the whole way through. Still, I feel very blessed that, in my fairly small town and school, I had a wealth of spiritual mentors in school. It's not like they shoved their beliefs down anyone's throats but it was nice to have chats with people like that.

I think it's also nice to have chats with those who wouldn't readily identify themselves as Christian (i.e. the majority of my university population); most have had some experience with churches or Christianity and I think it's important to gleam insight on what they didn't like as well as (had I the boldness) offer a way back on board.

And as for my religion, I'm a practicing Christian. I serve at my local church often, though other habits such as devotions and tithing could use improvement. I was probably pointed in the direction, but I believe I chose to follow of my own accord.

As I've said, I had it pretty easy as far as discrimination goes. Basically, by not being a prick about it, I didn't have any trouble, save my tennis coach. My denomination (Church of the Nazarene) hosts a sports and talent competition each year and it's always on the same weekend as the varsity regional tournament which determines qualifying players for state. I had to fight each and every year to keep my position in the team. That may have just been me being stubborn, though.

[Little_Pikachu]

I went to public school~ I don't think religion was ever a particularly big deal. In first and middle school we would have prayers said in assembly, they were Christian prayers but I don't remember any scenes being made by students of alternate religions.

We did learn about other religions in RE and we even did that in High School, though our teacher was a total hippy and would just put the radio on and let us colour in pictures of various Gods and stuff, this was before RE was recognised as a GCSE subject which is a shame because I was pretty good at it and I'm sure I would've got a good grade.

I don't think anyone really cared about anyones religion in my school, you would be bullied for other things like if you were say Muslim and coloured, your religious beliefs would be ignored and you would be bullied because you were a different colour or you wore a headscarf, whatever. This is mainly because the people who did the bullying were far too stupid to actually know anything about religion, so couldn't make insults based on it.

I went to school before being atheist and wicca was cool, so there wasn't much of that flying around in my time. I suppose if there were people like that in my school they would've just been picked on for being a goth or... I don't really know how an atheist would stand out externally, maybe refusing to participate in RE lessons? Either way, in my school people were only bullied because of what you could see, not for what they believed, isn't that nice?


BTW I wasn't a school bully and I'm not picking on any particular religion here.

[Crystal Mew]

I went to public school K through 7th grade, and then in 8th grade my mom put me in a private christian school, and thats where I graduated from. Honestly, there are pros and cons to both public and christian schools.

In public school, not much was said about religion, ever. In fact, the only reason I got into church at all was because my dad died when I was 8, so then my mom started taking us after that. The schools I went to for public school gave me a good education, and I didn't take my Bible to school or anything while I was in public school. I think I used to pray before I ate lunch but no one said crap to me about it. Also, in the school I went to I was more sheltered from things than I was in my christian school.

My christian school taught me lots of things. Well, the public schools here are utter crap, and I excelled much more in the christian school than the majority of the public school kids. A lot of them don't even come out of high school knowing how to spell properly, and don't use proper grammer when speaking. It is SO annoying.... everyone here will say "my car is broke" instead of BROKEN. So, I am sort of grateful that my mom put me in a private school that actually taught me things instead of being a complete retard. But then again, I learned all the basic skills in public schools back in the town I used to live in. So it could just be both school districts are very different.

Oh, and it was mandatory to carry my Bible with me to school, and learn about it. Plus we prayed about 3 times a day.

Soooo to answer your question, I didn't suffer any discrimination from public school or christian school. And if I recall right, no one else got picked on for being a certain religion back in public school. Maybe I just lucked out in that area

[PancaKe]

Woo. Life story here we go:


It's been really interesting to read what people think and how passoinate some people get. I think its pretty obvious that I'm a Christian (I like to say I'm a pretty strong Christian -as in,I actually make a decent attempt to live it out in my life and follow the bible, not just a "I'm a Chrisitan because I went to church at Christmas two years ago" Christian).

I've been to both schools.

My primary school was Catholic. I've found that majority of catholic students will call themselves catholic, and then turn around and ignore every single rule that that religion has. It makes me so angry for those who actually call and live as Catholics - to have their religion tainted by those who use it just as a name or part of their identity without much meaning in their lives. (That makes me angry about every religion though. If you're botherng to call yourself something, live it)

The thing about religious schools is that for some, they work. So it looks like in the next two years I'll be teaching at an Anglican school, and I know that in that school there are kids who complain about Jesus being shoved down their throats, kids who hate Jesus and kids of all religions. I think one sad thing about any religious school is the tendency they have to shove religion down a persons throat

In saying that, I know heaps of friends who went to this Anglican school, who are still strong Christians, working in churches, at bible collage, etc. It's very much depends on the individual person how people turn out.

My high school years (years 7 - 12) were in a public school. I became a Christian in the public school, and was teased a bit (not overly though). I don't think you can say one is worse or one is better in each school. There are so many factors to it - the type of kids who are religious and those who aren't as well. I mean, those kids who call themselves christians and walk around picking on homosexuals - they make me sick. They are an embarrassment to other Christians who would never do such a thing, and they're an embarrassment to Jesus because if they ever read the flipping bible, they'd see Jesus commanding people to LOVE, not to "go around and bash up homos".

Yeah. That's where I stand I guess.

[Lady Vulpix]

It makes me so angry for those who actually call and live as Catholics - to have their religion tainted by those who use it just as a name or part of their identity without much meaning in their lives. (That makes me angry about every religion though. If you're botherng to call yourself something, live it).

There are different approaches to a religion. If people ask, I'm Jewish. But I don't follow all the traditions and I don't even agree with all the rules. There's a lot more to being a part of a religion and/or a community than following rules blindly. I think people should do what feels right for them.

[PancaKe]

There are different approaches to a religion. If people ask, I'm Jewish. But I don't follow all the traditions and I don't even agree with all the rules. There's a lot more to being a part of a religion and/or a community than following rules blindly. I think people should do what feels right for them.

I disagree with what you say. If someone chooses to say they follow a certain religion, then they don't, it reflects poorly on the entire religion and makes those who are actually faithful and living it look like idiots.

Lets say that a religion states something such as "sex outside of marriage is wrong" or "alcohol isn't allowed" (i'm not being specific to any belief here by the way). Now, if a person says "hey, I follow religion X" and it's common knowledge that people of religion X or Y or Z aren't allowed to drink, or aren't allowed to have sex outside of marriage, and this person is partaking in these activities, dosen't it make you wonder 1) why they bother to associate themselves with this religion when they clearly don't have any personal regard for it, and 2) how does it make those who do follow these rules look? Why would people bother to follow the rules when nobody else does it?

I don't think its right to say "I support left wing 100%" but to disagree with their policies, or vote for right wing. You would say that's just silly. So why do we make exceptions based on what feels right for a person in regards to religion?

[Heald]

PancaKe: I think maybe what LV was saying (although if I'm wrong, feel free to correct me) is that there is a distinction between fundamentalists within a religion (i.e. those who take every law/commandment/holy book literally as law) and those who have a more modern approach. An example would be a fundamentalist Christian who believes sex before marriage and homosexuality are sins, whereas a more modern, liberal Christian may think those are outdated principles but still believe in God, Jesus and try to apply Jesus' teachings to modern life.

[Jeff]

When it comes to fundamentalists, they don't really follow all the rules specifically either. The bible says that premarital sex is a sin, but it also says love thy neighbor. If you are a true Christian, you would only hate the sin, but still love the sinner. Fundamentalists clearly don't do the later. It's pretty hard to find anyone who follows the bible or other religious text to the letter.

[PancaKe]

PancaKe: I think maybe what LV was saying (although if I'm wrong, feel free to correct me) is that there is a distinction between fundamentalists within a religion (i.e. those who take every law/commandment/holy book literally as law) and those who have a more modern approach. An example would be a fundamentalist Christian who believes sex before marriage and homosexuality are sins, whereas a more modern, liberal Christian may think those are outdated principles but still believe in God, Jesus and try to apply Jesus' teachings to modern life.

I would still say, to the liberal Christian, that you can't pick and choose which parts of the bible are outdated and which parts aren't. If Jesus' teachings on homosexuality or sex outside of marriage are outdated, then you could say that all of Jesus' teachings and actions are outdated - including his death on the cross and what they claim that achieved. Sure, some things are contextual - but not outdated.

[Blademaster]

^Hypochristianity. It's a beautiful thing, isn't it?

I regularly talk to a girl on MSN who claims to be a devout Christian, such that I can't even say "Jesus Christ" in exasperation or annoyance, and yet she lusts after pretty much any pretty girl she sees, plays practical jokes on her friends for no reason other than to laugh at them, and regularly steals Internet connectivity from her neighbors.

Religion needs age/intelligence limits put on it.

[Heald]

I would still say, to the liberal Christian, that you can't pick and choose which parts of the bible are outdated and which parts aren't. If Jesus' teachings on homosexuality or sex outside of marriage are outdated, then you could say that all of Jesus' teachings and actions are outdated - including his death on the cross and what they claim that achieved. Sure, some things are contextual - but not outdated.

Except Jesus taught that the old ways were not important and it was his teachings of loving God and loving others that matters. He never mentioned anything about premarital sex or homosexuality; those are mentioned in the Old Testament, right next to where it says you're not allowed to eat pigs and shrimps and other nonsense. It depends what you define as 'God's word'. Some people argue that because it was Moses, not God, who was giving these laws concerning shrimp and homosexuality, it wasn't God's word, but Jesus said to forget the old laws and embrace his new laws.

[Mew Master]

I would still say, to the liberal Christian, that you can't pick and choose which parts of the bible are outdated and which parts aren't.

Although I consider the whole thing to be outdated, that's not the discussion here. I think it comes down to the degree on what you consider to be against your own moral code of conduct, whether or not you view it to be the word of God or not. This argument also stands against what degree of literal interpretation you but into the Bible. Which parts are meant to be literal and which are not, and how do you make that distinction?

If Jesus' teachings on homosexuality or sex outside of marriage are outdated, then you could say that all of Jesus' teachings and actions are outdated - including his death on the cross and what they claim that achieved.

I disagree. Some things can be oudated, but not all has to be thrown out. That's the basic argument against science from a Creationist standing. Just because Jesus taught that "judge not yet he be judged" (dunno if he actually said it, but it fits with his character) and "love thy neighbor as thyself" still hold true even though some other teachings we view as immoral savage things to do to one another. The other question I have is this: If you think God and his teachings to be eternal, then what God said in the Old Testament stands in the New Testament, so which do you choose to follow and why? I've heard that Jesus goes against some of the Ten Commandments put forth in Deutronomy and Exodus but I'm not exactly sure which.

If someone can take the good things that Holy Scripture says, and use those to enrich their lives while realizing that the negative things done or advocated in that same scripture conflict with their own moral view, they aren't being "bad (insert advjective of religion here)" they're realizing that some things that were practiced and advocated thousands of years ago are no longer acceptable in society and therefore, don't agree with them. I think a liberal view of scripture is better than adhering to "All or nothing" view on "if some things are wrong, then it all has to be thrown out." No offense to those that have those views, but it seems like a very closed minded world-view to me.

Some things can be acceptable, while others cannot. The passage in Deuteronomy (I think, it may be Exodus) where it says "If a man lay with a man as he does with a woman. They both shall be stoned to death and their blood shall be upon them" not only makes many stomachs churn, it's incompatible with modern society's views on equality and human rights. The same can be said for "stoning a girl for having sex before marriage," "stoning an unruly child by the town," and "working on the Sabbath." Granted these are only a few passages out of the Bible that come to mind. (Although not NEARLY as bad ass for having God send a bear to kill 42 kids because they made fun of you for being bald).

Sure, some things are contextual - but not outdated.

But part of the context has ties to the date in which it was written and the society that accepted such barbaric behavior. Context and Outdated Society Morals are intertwined if not one and the same.

[MToolen]

Just as a clarification, God tried talking to the Israelites Himself; the first two commandments, for instance, are in the first person (I am the LORD your God... for I the LORD am a jealous God). The people actually asked Moses to intervene: "Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die" (Exodus 20:19, NIV). It's not that God wanted Moses to be the middleman. He just respected the wishes of His audience.

And, from how I interpret it, Jesus didn't come to destroy the Law, but to fulfill it. He skipped past the rules and regulations (e.g. John 8:2-11) and got to the real point of them: loving God and those around you, not because you have to but because you want to. Following this means giving up anything that ties you down to this world's philosophy that you should only do what is best for you.

We are not bound by the law, but by the spirit of the law. The law says you should love your neighbor. Jesus says to do more, to love your enemy too. The law says justice is eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth but Jesus says to turn the other cheek. How is this helpful to you? Or are you even supposed to be worried about yourself? Did Jesus not note how cheap sparrows and dime-a-dozen flowers are respectively fed and clothed daily and how that should reflect on our God?

So yeah, I see stupid ideas in the Law, mainly meant for what was important at the time- survival in a wilderness. Thus, everything had to be extra-clean and extra-geared for survival if survival was going to happen. But the intention behind it was that you were doing what you could to help out your fellow man because that was literally the only way to get out of the wilderness.

That intention still stands even if we aren't in a literal wilderness. Just because we aren't forced together for survival doesn't mean we have to be any less civil. What might that have to do with homosexuality? I have no clue, though it does offend some people. And as Paul puts it in 1 Corinthians 10, "'Everything is permissible'—but not everything is beneficial. 'Everything is permissible'—but not everything is constructive. Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others."

I say the context shouldn't matter anyway; that, with enough prayer and focus on loving one another, things should fall pretty well into place without having to think about things like kosher or the fruits of the spirit or the armor of God. It will all come naturally.

[Gavin Luper]

I get what Tara's saying, but I find myself not fitting into that theory. If I believe in Jesus and teachings, but find fairly sizable chunks of old testament cultural rules/post-Christ musings, such as the aversion to homosexuality, possibly more a reflection on cultural views than a fundamental "wrong", then what am I meant to call myself?

I'm not being a smart-arse, either - I'm seriously asking. Do I have to agree with every word uttered in the Bible to be called a Christian? And if I take issue with a single concept, does that make me a "non-Christian"?

[MToolen]

In my opinion, you wouldn't have to be forced into saying it's all true if you stay in a close relationship with God. That's all He ever really wanted, anyway. God loves us and we are called to love Him, again not because we have to but because there may come a point in your life when you want to. And so if you want to love God, then you'll want to do His will, His perfect and pleasing and holy will. We have this will, this Spirit, instead of the Law. Jesus fulfilled the Law but He also broke us from our dependence to it, in essence becoming the new Law. I guess this sounds pretty crazy and jumbled this early in the morning but that's really the heart of what a five-paragraph essay would get to: it's not about the Law, it's about the relationship. If you are in a relationship with Jesus, acknowledging Him as your Savior and trying to better your life, I'd call you a Christian.

[sfweb]

I study in secular school and also prefer secular school as i believe this is not fair that you endorse your thoughts to all the students i mean may be they belongs to different thought of schools so this is better that we only give basic education to all the children in school.

So, obligatory stuff outta the way first. I’m doing a project on religion in schools, specifically how it affects students. I’m coming to you guys for opinions. If I quote you, you don’t have to worry – it’ll be anonymous. Also, to clear up something because it came up somewhere else, yes, I am using other research than just random people on the internet. Yes, my plan of work originally did call for polling people.

Now to the good stuff.

For those of you that have experience in both religious and secular schools, what can you say about the differences between the two in terms of the quality of the education? How about the faculty – how different were they in terms of effectiveness, openness, helpfulness, and so on? How did the schools differ in terms of instilling morals and values?

Have any of you ever suffered discrimination in school because of your religious choices, either from the students, the faculty, or anyone else? Have you ever seen anyone else suffer in such a way?

To make this a discussion, I’ll start off first. I’ve only ever been to secular schools, so I can’t comment too much on the differences. However, when I was in elementary school, I remember declaring openly that I was an athiest (I’m an agnostic now, for the record) – I was teased brutally as a result. Like, other students actually ganged up on me and started yelling at me to tell them what was wrong with me. That has sort of left a mark. However, I also recognize that my experience is not the norm and probably has to do with me living in the Bible Belt more than anything else.

Anyone else have thoughts on this or stories to tell? Any anecdotes you can give would help my project quite a lot.

[DivineAll]

I never went to any religious and secular schools growing up, to be honest. However, I did go to Sunday School at a nearby church at a regular basis when I was a kid until... I believe sometime during middle school that I stopped going altogether. Why? The same reason Homer Simpson stopped going in that one episode he didn't go to church: I kept on learning the same stuff over and over again about God.

Now don't get me wrong, in regular schools it's a similar formula but with other subjects that aren't related to religion... most of the time. However, the big difference between my Sunday School education and my regular school education was that I was learning new and more advanced things about all the various subjects and topics that I was taking at the time. In Sunday School, it started to get really repetitive once we read certain parts of the Bible and discussing them over and over again like you were in a book club. At least in book clubs they switched books around once they were finished reading one or would come back to it later after reading other books.

Also, I came to a realization after quitting Sunday School, God has never really responded to my prayers... most of the time. It may be sheer coincidence but on the extremely rare occasion that I do pray nowadays, since I'm a skeptic about higher powers currently, my prayers occasionally get answered. I guess after all that time in Sunday School has taught me one important thing: belief. So long as you hold belief onto something, you can hold on hope that one day you belief will become reality.

[Blademaster]

Oh for God's sake, why would you revive THIS of all topics?

[classy_cat18]

*sighs* He's not supposed to dig up dead topics.

[Heald]

Look Battlecat! Skeletor is trying to resurrect dead threads in order to gain magic powers! We must defend Castle Greyskull!