Re: Are you religious? Yes/No and Why
But Bear, what other historical documents are so widely circulated within the general population and have as much hold over so many people? I can't think of one. The Bible is the only one. I would think that a Bible from 100 years ago is likely quite different to the ones now. Widespread literacy is a fairly new. Back in the middle ages, people manipulated the Bible's word for their own ends. The majority of people couldn't read, so it was quite easy to do. Even most of the clergy. One literate person could've altered parts of the bible and no-one would be the wiser. Only with the modern age and the invention of the printing press is there some sort of uniformity. But that document they used was already compromised long ago.Originally Posted by Bear
Also in regards to Paul. Paul may never have existed. There's no way to prove he was really here or that he's simply a fictional character.
Edit - Also, in regards to evolution Bear, Primates and Humans share around 97% of the same DNA. Through thousands of years of evolution, we've become the people we are today. THOUSANDS of years. Historians say that people used to be shorter 100+ years ago and that due to selection (Women being attracted to taller men etc) we're now a few cms taller on average than the average man 100+ years ago. So we're still evolving to this day.
Last edited by Andrew; 14th January 2011 at 04:01 PM.
Re: Are you religious? Yes/No and Why
I thought that had to do with genes? I don't know all about that, but I thought people did inherit genes. If women perferred tall men, so they had kids who were taller. Black people, as an example, used to be black (or dark), but over time they got lighter because of mixing with white people do to slavery and everything, or at least that's what a teacher said once. I don't see how that means we came from monkeys though...^^
Re: Are you religious? Yes/No and Why
My bad... - 6600 + 144000...
Revelations 7:4
(4)And I heard the number of those who were sealed (saved and sent to heaven). One hundred and forty-four thousand of the all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed.
Guess heaven has limited seating.
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Re: Are you religious? Yes/No and Why
I've always understood the sealing of the Jews and those people in heaven were two different groups in Rev 7. It says 9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
It says don't hurt the earth until the Jewish servents of God were sealed in their foreheads, not taken up to heaven. I can always be wrong, but that's always been my understanding. Of course, we'll just have to wait and see.
Re: Are you religious? Yes/No and Why
Well, when I went to Sunday school, the nun told us that you had to be good, or you weren't going to be one of those who were saved from the rapture...
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Re: Are you religious? Yes/No and Why
Yeah, shut the fuck up. You here just clearly reveal that you have no basic knowledge of Christian theology whatsoever. There is quite a lot of substantial evidence that Paul, one of the most important figures of the early Church, was, in fact, a real living human being who did and said a lot of the things that are recorded both inside and outside the Bible. The fact that he wrote what makes up most of the New Testament is pretty solid evidence there.
Re: Are you religious? Yes/No and Why
Asi: I heard those things in documentaries about Creatonism.
Also, fuck the gay-hating
Re: Are you religious? Yes/No and Why
I do see your point broseph. Yes, clergy had the power to interpret the Bible to their congregations as they saw fit because they were the only ones usually who spoke Latin. But that's when READING it, not writing it. There are many very old versions of the Bible intact, so there are bases for comparison. If any huge discrepancies existed that threatened the integrity of the book, they would have been discovered by now I think.
As for evolution, I know what the THEORY is. I just find it extremely hard to believe that we could go through so much change (Primates->Humans) when most other animals have been around and evolving for just as long and haven't experienced these kinds of changes. I just don't see how the conditions could exist that would influence a species like primates to develop speech, make clothes, and eventually invent all the technology we have today. Why haven't all primates evolved this way? Just because our DNA is 97% similar (so they say) does not mean we're evolved from each other.
I like all the discussion so far, it's polite, respectful, and intelligent. Keep it up y'all!
@Andrew - Can we still make out even though we disagree on religion?
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Re: Are you religious? Yes/No and Why
For me, as a Christian, the Bible reveals truth, not necessarily facts. This is kinda hard to understand, so I think of them somewhat like the parables that Jesus taught e.g. did some guy really have two sons and one asked for his inheritance? No, but we can understand the truth of the message he is teaching. This can be seen in such things as the story of the Flood. There are numerous stories in different cultures, but the story is meant to reveal truths about God. (I don't think they could build a ship big enough to hold all the animals in the world.)
This is not to say that the Bible is all tales, for I think there is truth in there, especially the New Testament.
As for Hell, I believe that it is real, but that it is not as it is said to be. Rather, it is a place where you do not and cannot experience God at all, because experiencing him would require you to face up to your sins and that pain would be even more unbearable than not experiencing God. In a way, it is maybe a mercy that they do not have to know they failed God.
In dealing with science and faith, I think that science is fact and that science helps us describe parts of our faith like how humans came about through evolution. If there are conflicts of faith and science it is merely a misunderstanding from one side or the other.
Re: Are you religious? Yes/No and Why
The Bible teaches it's not about man's goodness. That's not what saves us. According to the Bible, we've all fallen short of the Glory of God. That's why Jesus had to die, because we needed Him, and we are sick with the disease of sin. He's already done what needed to be done, now all He asks from us that we believe that He did it. He's asking for our faith and trust. All the Old Testement prophets we know about trusted God, and so did the New Testament people. Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness.
Re: Are you religious? Yes/No and Why
Anyone quoting the Bible is merely stating their interpretation.
Though, faith will lead to you presenting your interpretation as fact, so I can't really fault you for it.
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Re: Are you religious? Yes/No and Why
Hello friends.
I will not partake in the debate that seems to be ensuing, rather I shall simply reply to the topic at hand.
As a child, I believed unquestionably there was an afterlife and a God – the wise, white bearded Father and Grand Creator from the Heavens. So, it was a Christian God (for that was the society I grew up in). I did not attend church, adopting a non-Orthodox approach. I followed the views of my mother: she would tell me there is a God that ultimately forgives, and you need not attend church as long as you have a genuine soul and lead a good life. There was no hell for the bad people, rather those that committed the bad felt the utmost remorse and guilt for what they did, for God would show them the pain they caused – I guess He would do it some form of direct empathy, making them feel the pain they caused e.g. Hitler's treatment of the Jews. I presume in hindsight she told me this so I would not fear the possibility of Hell. I also now question my mother’s own genuine beliefs, for she may have told me these to put my mind at ease as I was a child that would ask many questions. But having heard that she wanted to convert to Catholicism before she passed away (she did not), I am assuming it is a mixture of the two.
I would pray to God, with my mother making out that God considered me special to the rest. I am certain this has much to do with my innate attention seeking, narcissistic side to me. But I digress. I would also pray, I believe, to St Peter whenever I would lose any belongings; definitely a placebo as I look back, but I would find whatever I had lost rather swiftly after my prayer.
I was extremely close to death as a baby, with the doctors telling my parents there is no option but to pull the plug. My mother went to the church in hospital, pleading to God for me to survive, and she said she heard a voice from Him telling her that is not necessary, and that I will be fine. So, I am going to guess that my mother’s spiritual side had much to do with her subjective experiences. Once I survived, my mother gave me a second middle name, Gerard, after St Gerard the Catholic saint of childbirth and mothers. I now see that second name as a personal reverence to my mother’s spiritual side rather than any religious connotation.
When my mum passed away in 2001 at the age of 12, my whole world collapsed. I was mostly certain she had gone to heaven, but I had a niggling doubt this was not the case. My dad, who is a believer of ghosts and whatnot, had a few experiences soon after her death that felt he was still talking and connecting with her; this was obviously his way of coping, for to come to terms she is completely and utterly gone, as if she had never existed, is a frightening thought to remotely contemplate. It still is in a way.
As I went through my teenage years, I was apathetic about religion and God. I was vastly more sceptical about His existence, yet I was too frightened to firmly doubt any form of afterlife and religion for obvious reasons. So, I guess I was a believer by fear and no alternative explanations due to lack of knowledge about the Cosmos.
In late 2008 and early 2009, the apex of my positive marijuana experience, I began to deeply reflect over God, existence and whatnot. I would write ideas down, which at the time I thought were epiphanies (and they are), which include: how imaginative and intelligent man is for to create a plethora of different ideas about religion and the afterlife; that when we die, we become nothing and in that sense if we have no ability to project the Universe, the Universe is no more (we make the Universe); and that the Big Bang is just one of infinite oscillating, each creating its own set of laws of physics. To imagine that we cannot even imagine (a tad paradoxical) the variety and plethora of previous types of laws, species, biology, civilisations, inventions, languages, forms of art, history, colours, and just everything completely different is breathtaking. Imagining the unimaginable.
Indeed, this rings true with our current Universe, with the 400 billion stars in our Galaxy alone, and with billions of other galaxies or containing more or less the same numbers. Drake Equation here!
But my ideas weren’t so original – the oscillating Universe has been a Hindu belief (in a more religious form) for centuries – as Carl Sagan’s Cosmos showed. And it showed me so much. It taught me not to fear the idea of a lack of Christian God, rather to bask in the awe and beauty of this Universe, and how the construction of the Earth, with the billions of years of evolution, occurred. This is just as spiritual – if not more so – than any religion can bring. So, I guess this is Pantheistic: the only true God for certain is the Universe itself. And, as I mention moreso below, you are a component of this God, for you are the Universe.
“The most beautiful and most profound experience is the sensation of the mystical. It is the sower of all true art and science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead. To know that what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty which our dull faculties can comprehend is as the centre of true religiousness.”
-Albert Einstein, The Merging of Spirit and Science
I then set my sights on Buddhism, and Eastern religion, which I have gained a few lessons out of it. It is not completely akin to it, but it is more so than Western religion. When we die, we will be what we were before we born. I guess this answers one main aspect to the question: no, I do not believe in any after life, or that our egos survive after we die. Our egos are a social institution, leaving us alienated from the Universe. But we are the Universe. We are all this Universe just knowing itself. And when we do die, it will go from everything to nothing; your ego will be as if it had never existed, as you merge again into the unconscious. With our lives so impermanent, this should try and teach us to live in the present moment, and take risks and make the most of what we can. I am still definitely a novice to it, still way too often falling trap to trivial worries that mean nothing in the grand scheme of things. The song, Jose Gonzalez – Cycling Trivalities, sums up this quite nicely. I also recommend, when it comes to the false idea of the ego, to read ‘The Book: On The Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are’ by Alan Watts, which I shall now quote:
“How is it possible that a being with such sensitive jewels as the eyes, such enchanted musical instruments as the ears, and such a fabulous arabesque of nerves as the brain can experience itself as anything less than a god? And, when you consider that this incalculably subtle organism is inseparable from the still more marvelous patterns of its environment—from the minutest electrical designs to the whole company of the galaxies—how is it conceivable that this incarnation of all eternity can be bored with being?”
However, we still know so little. Science is the best tool we have, but it has only uncovered the surface of the Cosmos. I like to postulate the idea that there is some conscious being, spirit – but they care little, if at all, about our existence. Or even know of it. This is labelled as Apathetic Agnosticism, I believe? All I know is that there is mystical truths afar which both science and religion cannot explain, and that is tear provoking to reflect over at how little we know – and quite possibly we will ever know – about the Cosmos.
I believe that every religion created on this Earth – since the cavemen started worshipping animals – are the idea of man. We developed a self-consciousness and began to wonder about everything. We are an intelligent species with a passionate imagination. I also like to joke that Jesus enjoyed weed, and was like “Woah man, I can walk on water and shit!” There is a myriad of planets and stars out there, unimaginable to conceive, and is simply an egeocentral delusion to think we have some special place in the Cosmos. Yet, this is perfectly normal for it is all we are known, and just as we get so caught up in our own trivialities, so too is it bound to manifest itself as a collective subconscious and believe Earth has some special place. But it does not. This may be terrible news, for it distorts your ego, but once you learn to accept how not only small you are, but the Earth itself, things shall not be so serious, and we shall hopefully learn to enjoy the present moment a little more.
I do not wish to actively condemn those that believe in religion, for any path to happiness in life should not be argued with. Life is far too short for everyone to discounter everyone’s beliefs. My only biggest problem with manmade religion is that so too often they are prone to not live their life with the only life they have, waiting for true happiness in an afterlife that simply will not occur. Religion, however, does teach about connectivity and whatnot, and many religious people still try and make the most of the life they lead here. There is ultimately no point to argue with what makes people happy and fulfilled, and I slightly envy those that are devout – I am simply not one of them. I would want nothing more for our egos, our personality, our memories to go on forever, for that is what our ego craves (to remain an ego) – but, sadly, it will not. Having said that, I recently read a book called ‘Sum; Forty Tales from the afterlife’ by David Eagleman. A neurobiologist, in it he imaginatively writes 40 ideas about what an afterlife may contain – that is not to say he believes any of them, but to consider that anything is possible – which he dubs Possibilianism – is sound and majestic thinking. So, I take back the complete certainty that our egos will not survive once we pass on, but it is the most likely scenario that I believe in.
I just spoke of my fear that religious people may not live their life to the full, for they are anticipating better tomorrow (after life), but I suppose this rings true for all of us – religious and non religious. We are always working towards some future that will ultimately never happen. We feel if we work hard now, then one day we will achieve happiness. We are breeding a type of human incapable of living in the present – that is, of really living.
When people come to me with their trivial problems, I do try to remind them of the impermanence of life, but it is becoming more apparent people are almost addicted to getting caught up in bullshit, so I’ve recently decided to refrain from what is probably preaching. I still contradict myself so many times, and to type all this up is actually a good reminder of the art of happiness.
Bye!
Last edited by shazza; 16th January 2011 at 04:40 AM.
Re: Are you religious? Yes/No and Why
The first part of shazza's research essay here, along with how everyone else seems to keep talking about the man in the sky with the beard etc, reminds me of something that happened at a church when I was very young. The adults were having a sermon so all the kids would go into a sort of daycare area, where this unhappy seeming woman pretty much just had us all draw what we wanted.
So my brother drew God, or what he saw as how God should look based on everything he ever heard about Him. The babysitter took one look at it and asked what it was, my brother telling her it was a picture of God. She got so mad, she told him he was wrong, that God didn't look like that at all, and that my brother should stop being so offensive and actually pay attention.
What did my brother draw that offended this old lady so much? He drew basically a nice scene with a house and trees and a big yellow sun, and a blue and pink mist/cloud area near the house. The mist was God, because God could be everywhere at once, and obviously to a four year olds mind that meant God was like the wind. Even as a five year old I didn't like that old lady's attitude in insisting that God was "an old man sitting on a cloud wearing white robes". If she's never looked in the face of God who is she to say that He isn't like the wind, or a misty form, or some concept we as humans can't understand?
I have always believed that in many things children tend to be smarter than adults, because they are less inclined to assume the universe follows all the rules all the time, they are more likely to believe in the sorts of possibilities that shazza has spoke of. To a child things are not always impossible, they just haven't been discovered yet, and I wish more adults would have that same sort of wonder, and that same desire for learning.
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.: September 14th 2012 :.
Re: Are you religious? Yes/No and Why
As far as adults are concerned, I think they pretty much begin to lose that wonder as soon as they hit that barrier, the teen years, because at that point you pretty much start to become a little more logical about the things around you.
And it's also the time in your life where, you're still young but, you're no longer under the "kid" definition. Even though some people still take to calling you kid simply because you're just younger than them.
Re: Are you religious? Yes/No and Why
What I was talking about though, is exactly that. Not everything in the world can fit within the confines of logic, even though we try to shove everything into the limits of what we think we know about the universe. Adults will even take a subject such as love and explain it away logically, that all love is is a cocktail of chemicals and hormones in the brain etc. To me that's a rather cynical way of looking at things, and I find it sad when people have to find a logical explanation for everything, since its limiting their own minds. As soon as you begin to think you know everything about how everything works, you stop growing and stop learning, and therefore become stagnant.
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.: September 14th 2012 :.
Re: Are you religious? Yes/No and Why
I know science isn't readily welcomed into religious discussion, but I have just mad a discovery that I felt was important to share:
There is a direct correlation between increased post numbers in religious threads and increased blood pressure in me.
This requires further testing, but it is a sound hypothesis as it is and should be considered by all future posters of this topic.
Re: Are you religious? Yes/No and Why
Blade: I have a quick solution for you: stop reading these discussions. Then they won't make your blood pressure rise.
Asi: how old are you? I'm confused by your use of the word "adults". In any case, it'll be hard to hear any children try to explain love in those terms, but not all adults do either. I don't believe that feelings are just the result of chemicals in the brain, although I do believe that certain chemicals can affect people's emotions (I've seen it happen). Probably not love, though, since it's a feeling for another person (or animal, or whatever) and not just an emotional state.
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Re: Are you religious? Yes/No and Why
Sorry Gabs, but stupidity draws me like a moth to flame. Thankfully, I'm just skimming most of this, so I haven't had too many aneurysms yet.
Re: Are you religious? Yes/No and Why
Who has ever said science isn't welcomed into religious discussions? I have already mentioned that I like science, and have mentioned a few science facts I have found in the Bible. I remember a specific thread somewhere else (not TPM) where I have been asked to get my opinions about Global Warming out of a discussion when I was just trying to bring a different opinion. But I did leave them alone when they asked.
Last edited by Metallixs Girl; 16th January 2011 at 07:33 PM.
Re: Are you religious? Yes/No and Why
Look at my profile, I was born in 1984 so Im 26. What I said about love was an example, I'm trying to say that it seems like aspeople get older they tend to in some cases become more cynical and less accepting of possibilities that don't fit into logic. In this way it seems like once people develop into adults, they become a bit more close minded and limited in their thinking, and quit considering things existing outside their understanding, which I think is sad. I hope this is a bit clearer.
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.: September 14th 2012 :.
Re: Are you religious? Yes/No and Why
Ah, I see. Well, as much as it may hurt some people, it's impossible to get to understand absolutely everything, so there will always be things that are beyond our understanding. If they choose to believe that there's nothing to life other than the interaction of chemicals, that's still a belief, not something they can know for certain.
It makes sense to try to explain things with the tools we have at hand, and when researching it's very common to start off with as few variables as possible because the simpler the object of study is, the easier it is to analyze it. But just because you've chosen a set of aspects to begin your analysis, it doesn't mean that nothing else exists. Things you can't measure or fully comprehend can't be easily studied, but there's no logic in denying their existence just because you can't understand them.
So if anyone claims that logic says God/the afterlife/souls/anything doesn't exist, you can tell them that logic says nothing about that, and that it's just a belief like any other.
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Re: Are you religious? Yes/No and Why
Eh, aside from everything else, I just feel that we are too complex to be destined for such a short time period. With all the feelings, emotions, and other things that we experience, I find it impossible to believe that, when we die, everything just "stops". That doesn't specifically describe just my religion, but it's part of the reason I believe in it.
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-Benjamin Franklin
Re: Are you religious? Yes/No and Why
I agree
I believe that anything created by man is inherently flawed, and to believe in anything requires faith that you are right, since no one can be 100% sure of their beliefs being true.
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.: September 14th 2012 :.
Re: Are you religious? Yes/No and Why
I feel the same way. The human condition and the spectrum of emotion, spirituality, creativity, intelligence that we possess just seems too bountiful to be reasoned down to a purely chemical inception. I can't fathom how any of that energy can just disappear.
I also agree very much with Gabi's latest post; nicely said.
Personally, I was born and raised Roman Catholic, and although I was raised to believe in God in my home life I was also encouraged to be open-minded and think about all kinds of spiritual possibilities. As it stands, I still quite love the core tenets of love that are central to Christianity and I do still believe in the love and peace preached by Jesus, but I find myself in staunch opposition to most doctrines and dogmatic thought that have sprung up around his image, especially the Catholic church.
As such, I've also allowed myself to explore spiritual ideas, as well as aspects of Buddhism and other religions, if for nothing else than curiosity's sake. I've been vaguely nihilistic at times, other times convinced that we are all individual fragments of the Soul of the World, and that essentially we all ARE God. I quite like that concept, too.
Good topic.
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Re: Are you religious? Yes/No and Why
I very much agree with you because how do you know that humans are able to 'know' things?
You can't, and it is an assumption made by all scientists that things are knowable.
Re: Are you religious? Yes/No and Why
I'd say it's an assumption made by most people. Perhaps everyone but Socrates and a few others.
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Re: Are you religious? Yes/No and Why
At least scientists TRY to explain things. Their goal is to prove themselves wrong by making new discoveries that can in turn give them new knowledge so that they can later make a new discovery that disproves the older one.
Much more efficient than staying in one spot like religion tends to do.
Re: Are you religious? Yes/No and Why
Religion doesn't stay in one spot. Most (perhaps all) religions have had reforms over the years, and new religions have emerged or branched from older ones. And even if you decide to stick to the oldest interpretations and traditions, you can work on improving your own knowledge and you can do science too.
There is no real opposition between religion and science. You can have both.
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Re: Are you religious? Yes/No and Why
Science 1,500 years ago: Earth is a flat disc at the center of the Universe, which is a big black space with a lot of little lights in it, and 7 big ones. The smallest things we know of might be magical particles called 'atoms.'
Science 400 years ago: Earth is a ball somewhere in a 'Solar system' composed of the 7 big lights and the Earth, all of which spin around the biggest light at the center of the Universe. The big light we spin around is fundamentally similar to the little lights, which are all farther away and are part of an even larger construct called a 'galaxy.' The smallest things we know of are indeed particles called atoms, which may be manipulated.
Science 200 years ago: Same as above, except now there's an 8th big light in our Solar system. Other galaxies exist besides ours, called the 'Milky Way,' and they come in different shapes. Also, atoms ARE manipulated, and different numbers and arrangements of atoms form different elements and compounds.
Science 100 years ago: There's a 9th big light. And atoms are made of even smaller things, such as electrons. Conversely, galaxies are grouped into clusters due to gravitational attraction and smaller spaces between them compared to other galaxies.
Science 50 years ago: There's a 10th big light, but it's really tiny compared to the others. Also, we now have a greater idea of how big space is because we know how fast light moves, and thus can gauge how far away and how old those little lights are. Also, electrons and their counterparts are made of even smaller components called quarks. Our galaxy, and others close by, are part of a massive construct called the Local Group, which is in turn a small piece of the Virgo Supercluster: a titanic collection of galaxies and clusters of galaxies spanning millions of light-years. Space itself, according to Einstein, may be made of an unbelievably small network of 'quantum foam.'
Science 5 years ago: There's a lot more than ten lights in our Solar system since the discovery and the observation of the Oort cloud, and the Universe as we know it may exist in 11 dimensions and be made not of a 'foam network,' but of infinitely tiny strings, far smaller than even the smallest quarks and neutrinos. This belief is called 'string theory.' Also, dark matter and energy, strange matter, and a whole bunch of other shit has been discovered. The Universe that we can observe is over 25 times larger than it was 30 years ago, and its edge is theorized to be over three times as far away as THAT, with an absolutely colossal Great Attractor at its center. The Universe's overall volume, even using the largest units of measurement, is well over a decillion, and even the entire Universe may be but a single piece of a Multiverse containing all possible incarnations of that Universe, which in turn is merely one representation of a Metaverse governed by the laws of an unknown Xenoverse, all encompassed in an infinitely unending realm of endless possibilities and scenarios known as the Omniverse.
And in spite of all that knowledge, we still know so little, and continue to stumble over ourselves with new discoveries and random scenarios and hypotheses every second of every day, just as we have for as long as we've been able to formulate rational thought.
Now let's compare that to a random faith.
Christianity 1,500 years ago: Follow the Bible, which is God's word because the Bible says so. Jesus died on the cross for your sins, and if you don't embrace him as your Lord and Savior, you will burn in a pit of fire and misery for all eternity. Also, if you let anybody know that you don't believe all this, you'll probably be killed in a gruesome and merciless fashion. Also, DARK AGES.
Christianity 400 years ago: Follow the Bible, which is God's word because the Bible says so. Jesus died on the cross for your sins, and if you don't embrace him as your Lord and Savior, you will burn in a pit of fire and misery for all eternity. Don't worry, though: You probably won't be killed for not believing this stuff anymore. Maybe. You'll get a lot of dirty looks, though.
Christianity 200 years ago: Follow the Bible, which is God's word because the Bible says so. Jesus died on the cross for your sins, and if you don't embrace him as your Lord and Savior, you will burn in a pit of fire and misery for all eternity. Odds of dying if you don't believe this are very low; odds of being ostracized are still quite high.
Christianity 100 years ago: Follow the Bible, which is God's word because the Bible says so. Jesus died on the cross for your sins, and if you don't embrace him as your Lord and Savior, you will burn in a pit of fire and misery for all eternity. Odds of being killed for not believing this are VERY low. Odds of being ostracized are moderate to high.
Christianity 50 years ago: Follow the Bible, which is God's word because the Bible says so. Jesus died on the cross for your sins, and if you don't embrace him as your Lord and Savior, you will burn in a pit of fire and misery for all eternity. Odds of being killed for your heresy are extremely low; odds of being ostracized are moderate.
Christianity 5 years ago: Follow the Bible, which is God's word because the Bible says so. Jesus died on the cross for your sins, and if you don't embrace him as your Lord and Savior, you will burn in a pit of fire and misery for all eternity. Odds of being killed for not believing this are nearly non-existent and have instead been replaced by an uprise in attempted recruitment. Odds of being ostracized are high in isolated areas and low in most other areas; in some places said ostracizing is replaced by condescension and genuine or faux pity.
Yep, I can see the progress alright. It's almost staggering at how similar they are in speed and consistency.
Re: Are you religious? Yes/No and Why
There are many branches of Christianity (with different traditions and interpretations of the Bible which have evolved over time), and even more religions that aren't Christian. 1,500 ago there was no science. Many people tried to figure things out in different ways, but the procedures weren't clearly defined, the scientific method was created a long time later.
You're mixing things up, trying to classify beliefs and attitudes into religion/Christianity (which you seem to treat as synonyms for some odd reason) and science, when reality's a lot more complex than that. Some of those things are neither in the basis of religion nor in those of science (like condescension and killing for not believing in something) but are the reactions of intolerant people who can't stand anyone disagreeing with them. You have no idea how many condescending atheists I've met. And, as I said before, religion and science aren't mutually exclusive. Many well-known scientists are/were religious. Besides, what you state as the evolution of science are only different theories that have been formulated, it's not "what science says" because "science" is not a religion. It doesn't tell you what you're supposed to believe. The many existing sciences are methods to explore and construct, not dogmas. Which is why a scientist can have any religion, or none at all.
Last edited by Lady Vulpix; 18th January 2011 at 02:08 PM.
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Re: Are you religious? Yes/No and Why
Isn't Rapture a GOOD thing?
Re: Are you religious? Yes/No and Why
No no, you're thinking of Raptor:
Re: Are you religious? Yes/No and Why
Blade I think you're generalizing a teeny bit. I agree with Gabi that science and religion are not opposed to each other, and both can actually work together and sometimes even AGREE on certain things. I think people just tend to focus on the subject of evolution and assume that because evolution contradicts religion, then all other science does too. Who is to say that God did not intend humans to pursue what they termed "science"? Perhaps we were designed to be this inquisitive on purpose so we would always thirst for knowledge. I think religion and science can go hand in hand if both sides quit being so stubborn and treating the two like political affiliations.
"A closed mouth gathers no feet."
-Benjamin Franklin
Re: Are you religious? Yes/No and Why
Evolution contradicts the story of Creation, which, by and large, is demonstrably (from a historical and theological perspective) an elaborate fairytale and a Frankenstein's monster-esque amalgamation of the various Creation stories of all the other religions floating about during the time of its inception. Not only is there absolutely no scientific basis for it, but large parts of it can be found in religions that pre-date Judaism and, by extension, Christianity. In fact, Genesis gives two rather separate accounts of Creation in an attempt to shoehorn as much of other religions' material into it as possible.
The reasons why the Theory of Evolution is so maligned by religious types are completely facetious. When Darwin first outlined the theory, the Church, by and large, was rather acceptive of it, with the typical 'wow, aren't God's creatures magnificent?' type stuff (nothing wrong with that, even if it is a little 'God of the Gaps'-ish). It was only when the realization that the Theory put forward that evolution was not an intelligent and loving thing but in fact a brutal, harsh, loveless, 'Survival of the Fittest' scenario sank in that the religious began to oppose it vehemently.
Evolution does not contradict religion at all. Evolution does contradict Creation stories that were cultural, rather than religious, but were since adopted by religions as a means of explaining why they were there and, more importantly, indoctrinating other cultures into their religion (for example, both cultures believe that they were created by the force that ripped apart the sea, earth and skies, but one culture is religious and says that God was that force, and then tells the other culture this in order to indoctrinate them). After all, being a thinking species that demands an answer for everything, coming up with a brilliantly colourful fairy-tale when your culture or civilization puts forward the question 'How were we created' is a much better answer than saying 'I don't know, stop thinking about it and get back to building pyramids' or some other equally true answer.
Last edited by Heald; 18th January 2011 at 03:37 PM.
Re: Are you religious? Yes/No and Why
This is why I love you, Heald.
Re: Are you religious? Yes/No and Why
From what I understand, this was actually one of the first questions philosophers turned to but I may be wrong.
Bingo.
Re: Are you religious? Yes/No and Why
Get watching some of this guy
http://www.youtube.com/user/patconde...19/y4mWiqkGy-Y
Nope, don't believe in a God
Don't really take a 'holy book' (in fact, an incredibly archaic, man-made load of bullshit) as possessing enough proof to sway me.
Also, each and every religion (hundreds) claim they're the RIGHT one...
how can this be so?
I believe we don't know enough about anything to be certain,
but that science provides the most convincing answers, for me.
and I get my good morales, simply from being a good person.
Religion serves me with nothing but a wishy-washy answer and light comfort
that we all live forever and have someone who loves us; but I'm a big boy, I don't
need to feel that comfort, if I can't see hard evidence for its truth.
e.g. ,The bible says the world is 6,000 years old
science has proven that to be wrong.
To me, organised religion is SO obviously a tool for controlling the masses
the greatest tool in fact, it works wonders.
or perhaps, a dillusional way of thinking to provide people who are scared of 'not knowing' and scared of dying with pathetically simple and 'reassuring' answers.
But I like cold, hard, truth.
And I can't see any in any religion.
So I say, we just dont know every answer (agnosticism), but that I definitely don't agree with any of the religions out there (atheism). And science, for me, is the true pathway we we should be rallying behind, in finding out where we all came from. Science constantly endeavours to provide us with new answers, based on empirical research and observation; the answers that old religious scripture provides, will never change, never update itself, yet will sadly brainwash the masses forever.
Re: Are you religious? Yes/No and Why
Oh, Jay, I'm sorry to see that you haven't read any of our previous posts.
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Re: Are you religious? Yes/No and Why
Man, maybe when I have time I'll contribute more to this topic, but I will say that, despite all of people's attempts to cast a negative light on Christianity or religion, both of them will keep on going strong until the end of time.
The Hero of Hyrule.
Re: Are you religious? Yes/No and Why
A lot of folks bring up the issue of being gay when talking about Christianity, and I know that sometimes I go off on a tangent and start pointing fingers at certain sects of Christianity for their treatment of folks who simply aren't straight. The biggest tool that many sects of Christianity use is fear--and that is why I simply cannot go to these churches. I'm going to write this post under the assumption that God and Jesus are real according to Trinitarian beliefs, despite my not believing in this.
It's not the fear of God, or of a Rapture where Jesus leaves behind all the gays, because most people regardless of sexuality are smart enough to put 2 and 2 together on that one--Jesus himself was a forgiving and peaceful man. We seldom attribute the vengeful, jealous, negative aspects of God to Jesus, rather directly to God. It becomes a sort of paradox--"Believe in Jesus and love Jesus, don't sin or God will smite you, but Jesus is God, and add in a Holy Spirit to further complicate things."
The attitude of the pastors and parishioners towards gays is what is scary--that is where you feel fear. If you believe in God, then you probably believe that God already knows that you're gay before you even realize you're gay, because most people realize--but perhaps not acknowledge--that they are attracted to the same gender during adolescence. Coming out to God isn't scary--but the humans who scream from a pupil that gayness is evil and deserves hellfire certainly are scary enough as it is. Sitting through a pentecostal sermon as a pimply gay 12 year old Pokemon Master who loves Harry Potter books sure fills you with a lot of "divine" guilt. What's worse is when your family believes the bullshit--it was like being trapped in, yes, a closet. I know I'm not alone in this experience--it happens to so many thousands of young people.
And that's really the basis of why I'm agnostic. The Bible is too contradictory. I'm confused at the notion of God and Jesus being one and the same; I'd really rather follow Jesus than God, given that God seems to be a bully. The God of the Bible doesn't seem to understand humans because he has never walked the earth as a human; this God seems to get disgusted with humanity all of the time, rains down plagues on people left and right, guides his followers into destroying cultures and stealing their resources, promotes human sacrifices, and engages mass groups of people into seances that seem silly to an outsider, but to an insider all other religions are the ones doing silly seances. I mean just look at Leviticus. Maybe God is a "jealous God" because he lacks free will. Maybe he's jealous that Adam and Eve ate the fruit before he got a chance to. Maybe all the crazy stringent Biblical laws are God's way of preventing humanity from reaching its full potential, holding people back from exploring the world, life, sexuality, dating, and learning about the universe.
Of course, this is all assuming that God is as the Bible portrays him. If that is the case, then I really wish God could come down from the heavens on a nice fluffy cloud and play cards with me for hours, and just chat. I want to understand God and what is out there, but I simply cannot go with the modern interpretation. Maybe I'm more spiritual than I give myself credit for. I'm really curious. Maybe we all really do get reincarnated. I read something about the phase of the moon when you're born and how it corresponds to which phase of karma and reincarnation you are in, and I'm apparently a really old soul on my way out just 'cuz I was born the day before a new moon and cuz apparently the moon's in "the 12th house" (?) in my planet chart thinger with the signs all wrong apparently haha. (I always thought it was just quaint that I was born at both sunrise and moonrise) If that's the truth, then I wonder if I can recall me some past lives. According to that belief, growing up in an abusive household was karmic retribution for crimes of my past lives and now "hey everything's hunky dory you can enjoy life now"... And again, that's something that I just can't wrap my head around. If I can't remember these "crimes", why should I be punished for them? To my knowledge, I was born, grew up and here I am today.
Sober musings from Magmar.
Last edited by Magmar; 19th January 2011 at 10:02 AM. Reason: Because I have a balsamic moon.
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