Kyogre is at a new standard moveset?

[SWAMPERT1]

I heard it had something to do with Toxic beacuse of shedinja an Quagsire. What is this set?

[andyizcool]

Kyogre@Leftovers/Salac Berry
Surf
Toxic
Calm Mind
Ice Beam/Thunder
Nature: Timid
EVs: 252 Speed, 129 Defence, 129 Special Defence

That is the new Standard Kyogre that has Toxic to take out Shedinja/Quagsire. The Speed EVs are the Nature is there for maximum Speed and sweepage. Set up Calm Mind and then it's Special Attacks will be even more Uber powerful.

[Ultimate Pikachu]

I like this better

Kyogre
Timid
@Salac/Peyata Berry
252 Speed, 129 Special Attack, 129 Defense or 252 Speed, 252 Special Attack, 6 Defense

Surf
Ice Beam
Thunder
Toxic/Calm Mind

I don't like choosing between Ice Beam and Thunder. You could use Calm Mind in the last slot if you know you won't face any Shedinja.

[Tidus]

Any body who use a toxic kyorge should be shot.That is why you have six other pokes and your team.Between fire,flying,rock,ghost,dark,sandstream, toxic,leech seed,will o wisp,spikes,confuse ray.Somebody should be able to kill shed.

Standard moveset is the same

Kyorge@leftovers or chesto berry/salac/petya

Surf/Water spout
calm mind
Ice beam/Thunder
Rest/Thunder

Toxic is dumb,Don't use it on Kyorge

[andyizcool]

You're wrong in some way in those Movesets you think a Kyogre should have. The new Standard Kyogre is the one I posted above. Calm Mind so it can get a great Special Attack. Surf covers literally everything so he should just be able to sweep with that. Toxic is in there to get Shedinja/Quagsire. Thunder or Ice Beam as your last move is what you like best. Thunder has a 30% PRZ chance and always hits in rain whereas Ice Beam will take out Dragon Pokemon faster than Surf.

[Tidus]

Do people put psychic on snorlax to stop fighting pokes.NO .Putting toxic on Kyorge for one poke is just as stupid.A couple of ice beam kills quaggy.That leaves just shednija. So what if kyorge can't kill shedinja one pokemon.Surf, ice beam and thunder can kill everything esle [i think surf,boltbeam hits all pokes].Shedinja is not that common and that hard to beat as i metion before.Toxic is a waste of moveslot that can be use for ice beam or Thunder.

As i Said that is what your other pokes are for. Let me leave you with some examples

Example 1
trainer A set out Kyorge
trainer B set out Shednija

Trainer A withdrew kyorge set out Skarmory
Skarmory uses drops spikes or uses drill peck,dead shed either way

Example 2
trainer A set out Kyorge
trainer B set out Shedinja

Trainer A withdrew kyorge set out T-tar

T-Tar uses sand stream.

Instant death

[andyizcool]

I see your point about using a Shedinja and Kyogre. Example 2 works well except everyone doesn't have a Tyranitar and everyone doesn't have a Shedinja anyway. Example 1 wouldn't work because if you're going to be using a Shedinja you would have a Rapid Spinner in your Team. Who would leave Shedinja in against a Skarmory anyway? Only a n00b. The new Standard Kyogre has Toxic just in case it's their last Pokemon and the opponent's last Pokemon is a Shedinja as a sneaky surprise.

[Rabid_Cow]

I've been trying this new set and it seems to be working very well, especially with the pokes that are often sent out to take care of him:

Kyogre @Leftovers (Bold) [EV's: 252 Special Defense/Defense, 6 HP]
Toxic<>Dive<>Protect<>Rest

I got a Kyogre that was Bold, and I figured there'd have to be some good way to use it. It's also just really funny to watch a Kyogre as a staller. It's what I've been using in the local tournaments and surprisingly it hasn't met too many problems. It Toxics, Dives, Protects, and Rests when it needs it. Shedinja isn't too big a problem unless it's got a Lum Berry (which is standard in net battles, but I haven't seen it much in tournament play).

I use a Gorebyss on the same team as this Kyogre and if I Baton Pass a couple of Iron Defenses and Amnesias, he's pretty much invincible.

[Tidus]

Random facts

-If you can find rapid spinner that can take good hit from a kyorge please post it here.

-Kyorge vs Shedinja as is a likely sitution,but more likely you will have other pokes left.So toxic is still dumb move

-Quaggy still probaly owns kyorge even if toxic it.

-Without ice beam that gives a grass poke a chance to beat kyogre or screw it up by leech seed or putting it to sleep.For example eggy will laugh at surf and sunny day and solar beam it

-Without thunder that gives a water type a chance to beat kyogre or screw up by twaving it, or confuse ray it.For example Lapras will laugh at kyorge and probaly kill it with sheer cold or tbolt.

The real standard moveset does have those problems surf,ice beam,thunder calm mind covers all pokes except one.Shedinja.So the real question is do want counter useless poke or do want be able to beat every poke that comes your way it is your choice

-Smart People don't attack kyorge with shedinja they use a combintion of Ludicolo and some electric poke.Blissey and some electric poke or sceptile,or .Slaking and some fast poke that hits hard.

[Animelee]

Wow, Tidus, someone sure has some teen angst. Why are you so negative when someone else uses a moveset you wouldn't use? It's just a goddamn moveset, I don't know why you have to go bashing other people. Besides, what if Kyogre is your last Pokémon, and you're facing a Nukenin/Shedinja? What're you going to do then?

[andyizcool]

Besides, what if Kyogre is your last Pokémon, and you're facing a Nukenin/Shedinja? What're you going to do then?

You would cry like a baby (Whitney-GSC) and quit the Pokemon Battle to play Final Fantasy. The words of a wise person telling you to have Toxic on Kyogre will remain in your mind haunting you. Blissey can own Kyogre any day even if Kyogre has used Calm Mind to maximum. A question has popped into my head:

Q: WHO USES KYOGRE???
A: N00bs that can't win without using Ubers.

EDIT: I didn't mean to hurt you Netbattle people that use a Team of Legends and Ubers because you can't handle the challenge of having a real Pokemon Battle that's fair.

[Mr.E]

If you're going to use Toxic for the sole purpose of killing Shedinja you might as well use AP for the chance at boosting all your stats. And since AP is already retarded enough to put on Kyogre, but a better idea than Toxic, it would stand that using Toxic on it is even worse. X)

Regardless, Kyogre still has definite counters to it no matter what you use. Toxic, AP, or whatever the heck you're using that's strange, won't help you against the likes of Blissey or Raikou. Nearly every team has at least one of these 'definite counters,' making Kyogre not nearly as hard to kill as it would be in 202 play. Then again, a Drizzle-based team is possibly more powerful than any other team out there, so Kyogre's still a fag in that purpose.

[theniceguydk]

Just a question - Can Struggle hit Shedinja?
If so, you can use all the PPs of the moves, and then you still can beat Shedinja.

[Freyr]

Just a question - Can Struggle hit Shedinja?
If so, you can use all the PPs of the moves, and then you still can beat Shedinja.

No struggle wouldnt work, because it's a normal move i think. A move has to be super effective to work on it.

[Iveechan]

But Shedinja is hurt by recoil. Atleast from my memory.

[Freyr]

I thought he meant if the opponent was using struggle. *shrugs*

[andyizcool]

I see where you're coming from Mr.E, maybe we should try something new on our Movesets to see how they work.

I think using Struggle on a Shedinja would kill it because I remember using Shadow Rush on one in Pokemon Colosseum and it got KO'd. Shadow Rush is a ??? Type Move but I think Struggle is Normal. Maybe someone should try Kyogre vs Shedinja and get rid of Kyogre's PP using moves that can't harm Shedinja, then try Struggle.

[Loupeitak]

Struggle DOES work on Shedinja:

Begin Turn #38
Kyogre used Struggle!
(1 damage)
Kyogre is hit with recoil!
Shedinja fainted!

NetBattle v0.9.2H
Log saved 6/12/2004 at 10:32:47 PM

Yes i did this on Netbattle. Wasn't too hard with Spite

So Kyogre does have a chance to beat Shedinja

[theniceguydk]

Hehe.. I was right, then

Thanks!

[Tidus]

[QUOTE="andyizcool"]You would cry like a baby (Whitney-GSC) and quit the Pokemon Battle to play Final Fantasy. The words of a wise person telling you to have Toxic on Kyogre will remain in your mind haunting you. Blissey can own Kyogre any day even if Kyogre has used Calm Mind to maximum.

I sorry to do this i not picking on andyizcool, but Kyorge and Deoxy F OhKO Blissey[max hp and special defense] with six calm minds.Deoxy F with Psycho boost[it could probaly do it with psychic] and Kyogre with surf(yes surf,not even water spout).Kyorge is worthy of its oober tagging.

Also other random stuff


-Soul Dew Latios(6 calm minds) comes close leaving Blissey at 1% hp
-Mewtwo(6 calm minds) can't ohko it seems leaving Blissey at 18% hp

-The stuff you do when you are bored on Netbattle

[andyizcool]

I sorry to do this i not picking on andyizcool, but Kyorge and Deoxy F OhKO Blissey[max hp and special defense] with six calm minds.Deoxy F with Psycho boost[it could probaly do it with psychic] and Kyogre with surf(yes surf,not even water spout).Kyorge is worthy of its oober tagging.

Kyogre would only OHKO Blissey if the Kyogre had max Special Attack EVs and Blissey had no HP or Special Defence EVs. RSBot is always better than N00battle because even without images there are better players. People actually use Ubers and Soul Dew Lati@s on Netbattle and that isn't really fair. If you win fair against some good players without using Ubers and cheap tactics then it shows you're a good player too.

[Pig on the Wing]

little off topic here, an i prolly sound like an uber n00b, but y is quagsire a threat to kyogre? surely a couple of surfs will kill it...

and, toxic is wasted move seeing as its just for shedinja...

[andyizcool]

little off topic here, an i prolly sound like an uber n00b, but y is quagsire a threat to kyogre? surely a couple of surfs will kill it...

and, toxic is wasted move seeing as its just for shedinja...

Quagsire is a threat to Kyogre because Quagsire has Water Absorb. When it gets hit by a water it'll just heal HP and not take damage. Toxic isn't just there for Shedinja, what about Special Sponges that'll take no damage for the Special Moves Kyogre has? You need something that'll slowly KO while you Calm Mind.

[Tidus]

This is just for you mr cool

Kyogre @ Leftovers
Trait: Drizzle
EVs: 255 Spd / 255 SAtk
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Ice Beam
- Surf
- Thunder

Blissey (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 6 SAtk / 252 SDef
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Aromatherapy
- Seismic Toss
- Softboiled
- Thunder Wave

Dumb Luck vs Donut[2on2]. Begin!
Dumb Luck sent out Kyogre (Lv.100 Kyogre)!
Donut[2on2] sent out Blissey (Lv.100 Blissey)!
Kyogre's Drizzle made it rain!

Begin Turn #1
Kyogre used Calm Mind!
Kyogre's Special Attack rose!
Kyogre's Special Defense rose!
---------------------------------
Blissey used Aromatherapy!
A soothing aroma wafted through the area!
---------------------------------
Rain continues to fall.
End of turn #1
Dumb Luck's Kyogre: 341 HP
Donut[2on2]'s Blissey: 100% HP
Begin Turn #2
Kyogre used Calm Mind!
Kyogre's Special Attack rose!
Kyogre's Special Defense rose!
---------------------------------
Blissey used Ice Beam!
It's not very effective...
(11 damage)
---------------------------------
Rain continues to fall.
Kyogre's Leftovers restored its HP a little!
End of turn #2
Dumb Luck's Kyogre: 341 HP
Donut[2on2]'s Blissey: 100% HP

Begin Turn #3
Kyogre used Calm Mind!
Kyogre's Special Attack rose!
Kyogre's Special Defense rose!
---------------------------------
Blissey used Ice Beam!
It's not very effective...
(9 damage)
---------------------------------
Rain continues to fall.
Kyogre's Leftovers restored its HP a little!
End of turn #3
Dumb Luck's Kyogre: 341 HP
Donut[2on2]'s Blissey: 100% HP

Begin Turn #4
Kyogre used Calm Mind!
Kyogre's Special Attack rose!
Kyogre's Special Defense rose!
---------------------------------
Blissey used Ice Beam!
It's not very effective...
(7 damage)
---------------------------------
Rain continues to fall.
Kyogre's Leftovers restored its HP a little!
End of turn #4
Dumb Luck's Kyogre: 341 HP
Donut[2on2]'s Blissey: 100% HP


Begin Turn #5
Kyogre used Calm Mind!
Kyogre's Special Attack rose!
Kyogre's Special Defense rose!
---------------------------------
Blissey used Ice Beam!
It's not very effective...
(7 damage)
---------------------------------
Rain continues to fall.
Kyogre's Leftovers restored its HP a little!
End of turn #5
Dumb Luck's Kyogre: 341 HP
Donut[2on2]'s Blissey: 100% HP

Begin Turn #6
Kyogre used Calm Mind!
Kyogre's Special Attack rose!
Kyogre's Special Defense rose!
---------------------------------
Blissey used Ice Beam!
It's not very effective...
(6 damage)
---------------------------------
Rain continues to fall.
Kyogre's Leftovers restored its HP a little!
End of turn #6
Dumb Luck's Kyogre: 341 HP
Donut[2on2]'s Blissey: 100% HP

Begin Turn #7
Kyogre used Calm Mind!
Kyogre's stats won't go any higher!
---------------------------------
Blissey used Ice Beam!
It's not very effective...
(6 damage)
---------------------------------
Rain continues to fall.
Kyogre's Leftovers restored its HP a little!
End of turn #7
Dumb Luck's Kyogre: 341 HP
Donut[2on2]'s Blissey: 100% HP
Dumb Luck: k here it goes

Begin Turn #8
Kyogre used Surf!
(100% damage)
Blissey fainted!


If You think i am making this up test it on the bots if you want.The result will be same.

[Ultimate Pikachu]

No idiot would use Aromatherapy on the first turn. Blissey should have Toxic. In that battle, the user of Blissey was stupid. It should have used Thunder Wave. Also, the Blissey in the begining of your post doesn't have Ice Beam.

[Tidus]

Point of Log is to show that a 6 calm mind modest Kyorge with surf will ohko a max hp and special defense blissey with a special defense boosting personality.Somebody said blissey will only be ohko if the blissey in question has no hp or sp denfense evs.I posted log to show my point.Also the blissey is the top is in log except it has ice beam over thunderwave.

To any wants think that "fixed " the log to agree with i am saying or Since it was done on netbattle and netbattle has glitches or some crap like that, go test on the bots for yourself. I will still be right

[andyizcool]

No wonder they call that N00battle. You have the Blissey Standard yet it uses Ice Beam? I agree with Ultimate Pikachu. Who would start a battle with a move that heals status? If I was using that Blissey and I do, I would Thunder Wave first. Then you would Seismic Toss. Four or five uses of Seismic Toss and that Kyogre would be KO'd before fully Calm Minding. That battle is fixed or a n00b was using that Blissey.

[Tidus]

This will probaly be my last post in this thread because certain people are dumber than rocks.I will state the facts

-Toxic is dumb,and never will be the standard

-Kyorge with six calm minds and a modest personality will 0HKO a Max Special Defense and max hp with a special attacking boosting personality

-This is the most important one,Two people on tpm are to dense to see that log was a test to prove a point(The point was kyorge can ohko blissey in reponse to this stament "Kyogre would only OHKO Blissey if the Kyogre had max Special Attack EVs and Blissey had no HP or Special Defence EVs"). Also thread proves that not everyone on bots are good some of them are nubs.

[Ultimate Pikachu]

This will probaly be my last post in this thread because certain people are dumber than rocks.I will state the facts

-Toxic is dumb,and never will be the standard

-Kyorge with six calm minds and a modest personality will 0HKO a Max Special Defense and max hp with a special attacking boosting personality

-This is the most important one,Two people on tpm are to dense to see that log was a test to prove a point(The point was kyorge can ohko blissey in reponse to this stament "Kyogre would only OHKO Blissey if the Kyogre had max Special Attack EVs and Blissey had no HP or Special Defence EVs"). Also thread proves that not everyone on bots are good some of them are nubs.

1. You don't see the reason for Toxic on Kyogre.

2: That doesn't make sense.

3. The Blissey in the log had no effort in Special Defense.

[TeleFox]

Look, I'm not going to take sides on this, but let me make a few points to try and clear this up:

The purpose of Tidus' battle log was to prove that a Kyogre with max. possible Special Attack (in terms of level, IV's, EV's, nature and stat boosting) was capable of OHKOing a Blissey with max. HP and Special Defense (in terms of level, IV's, EV's and nature), in this case using Surf.

The question was not "Who would win, Kyogre or Blissey?", as that depends on many things; movesets, technique, stats and a bit of luck. It doesn't matter if you'd use different moves andyizcool, the trainer with the Kyogre could use different moves as well, not that that was the point of the excercise in the first place.

Ultimate Pikachu, in the line EVs: 252 HP / 6 SAtk / 252 SDef, the 252 SDef indicates that Blissey has the maximum effective Special Defense EV's, not none.

[Tidus]

1. You don't see the reason for Toxic on Kyogre.

2: That doesn't make sense.

3. The Blissey in the log had no effort in Special Defense.

1. I see the reason for toxic,it is dumb.It is like puting psychic on snorlax,it would counter fighting pokes but it can do much better with other sets.

2.It is not very hard to understand.Once a Kyorge gets 6 calm minds its sp attack is some where around 17,562 add rain dance boost and stab, it ohkos all pokes except shedinja.Also it should be noted surf was used in the testing not hydro pump and water spout which would do way more damage.

3.The Blissey had 252 effort point in special defense and 252 hp points and special defense boosting personality.I said this before,test it yourself if you don't think it is real.

Bring proof if you are going to claim something.Not your opinion

Btw, maybe this one will be my last post

[Ultimate Pikachu]

1. I see the reason for toxic,it is dumb.It is like puting psychic on snorlax,it would counter fighting pokes but it can do much better with other sets.

2.It is not very hard to understand.Once a Kyorge gets 6 calm minds its sp attack is some where around 17,562 add rain dance boost and stab, it ohkos all pokes except shedinja.Also it should be noted surf was used in the testing not hydro pump and water spout which would do way more damage.

3.The Blissey had 252 effort point in special defense and 252 hp points and special defense boosting personality.I said this before,test it yourself if you don't think it is real.

Bring proof if you are going to claim something.Not your opinion

Btw, maybe this one will be my last post

1. It is not like putting Psychic on Snorlax. Kyogre can acually use Toxic but Snorlax can't use Psychic. Other moves would do more damage anyways.

2. I meant the sentence didn't make sense.

3. Simple mistake. I didn't see the S next to Def. What about IVs? Just curious.

My last post contained no opinion.

[Mr.E]

Snorlax can most definitely use Psychic. Granted, letting it do so is pretty stupid, but then again so is letting Kyogre use Toxic.

[Rudoku]

3. Simple mistake. I didn't see the S next to Def. What about IVs? Just curious.

The Blissey user would have to be braindead(I was going to just say stupid, but the guy used Ice Beam and ignored Seismic Toss) to use anything other than 31 HP and Sp.Def. It didn't have Hidden Power.