Political veiws on abortion and other things

[VampireCharizard]

I personally am conservative/republican and I can see some key disputes and differences between them and liberals/democrats. What i don't get is how the pro-choice peeps can make SO LITTLE SENSE IT'S UNFREAKIN BELEIVABLE! i'm sorry but umm... for example: Scott peterson is on trial for DOUBLE murder. For his wife and UNBORN son. Now that's counted as murder, but oddly, abortion is not. As a republican, I appose abortion and see it as murder. I'm sorry i used murder for the word I just feel strongly about this. I know the baby that scott supposedly killed was at a much more mature stage of pregnancy, but life is life, and it's getting on my nerves how people can literally kill their unborn child. It may be Hanity's persuasive powers getting to me or the fact that i live with the most conservative woman in the state, but conservative veiws just seem to make more common sense. And wut's with the Bush-bashing?!?! grr!

[CaptainDean]

First of all, you're an idiot. People like you make me sick.

Secondly, the reason women get abortions is typically because they are not able to care for the child. Why would you bring a child into this world when you know it's just going to destroy your life, and it's own life will be totally ****ed from birth? It's called the right to choose.

The "Bush-bashing" you speak of happens because quite frankly, Bush is also an idiot. He's crapped all over education, the economy, human rights, and sent not only his own army, but the army of several other nations off to fight a war based on fabricated and falsified evidence to topple a harmless regime.

[VampireCharizard]

You can ALWAYS put the child up for adoption! At least give it a chance to LIVE IT'S LIFE! the baby could grow up and have a seperate life from their parents - a GOOD life, but they don't even give their child a CHANCE to LIVE! it sickens me beyond beleif and as for the right to choose, screw that they shouldn't have a choice over whether an INNOCENT child lives or dies. AND HOW COULD CARING FOR A LOST LIFE SICKEN YOU?!?!?!

[kainashi]

no wonder you have girl problems.

[VampireCharizard]

dammit! why does no one agree with me?!?! lol

[CaptainDean]

Because you're wrong?

[VampireCharizard]

how the hell am i wrong? cause what, they don't wanna go through some pain ok a LOT of pain, so they kill their baby? they can always do adoption as I've pointed out, and maybe no one's agreeing with me cause only two liberals have been replying. There has to be at least one person who has COMPASSION for dead babies...

[gomez]

I'm really not into politics, so when you speak of this "conservative" and "liberal" stuff, I have no friggin idea what you are talking about. I have a general idea of what they might represent, but thats it. I would pretend to go along with my AP History teacher when she would talk about politics and the like.

Abortion should be a woman's right, but I'm not sure where I stand with the whole 'the unborn can be counted as a life' thing. But I do want Scott Peterson to be found guilty and go to prison for life, or better, die. It's so obvious how guilty he is.

[VampireCharizard]

it's easy to see he's obviously guilty.....

[Suite Madame Blue]

I don't know why I'm even bothering to post to this topic, because I know how it's going to go: My reasonable post will get ignored, this thread will disintegrate into a flame war, and a mod will close the topic. Here goes anyway. Foolish me.

I'm a Republican too, and I support abortion. And, for the record, I'm also adopted. Yes, killing is wrong. HOWEVER - it's more wrong to bring an unwanted baby into the world and subject it to a lifetime of neglect and possibly abuse. I'm lucky - I was wanted by somebody, abortion was illegal in 1967, and my birth mom didn't believe in abortion anyway. Others are not so lucky. I know of a few young mothers where I live who got pregnant while in high school or right after, and were pressured to keep their babies BY THEIR PEERS. Other 17-year-old girls who can barely take care of themselves, let alone a child. You just know they'll end up on welfare and be a burden to the state. And welfare means higher taxes.

The problem really is that the religious groups have given lots and lots of money to the Republican party to push their own agenda, including anti-abortion, and money talks. Republicans have to remember their party's core philosophy: The government stays out of people's private lives. What I do with my body is none of the government's concern, including abortion. It's better to terminate a pregnancy than to cause suffering to an already-born child. It's better still to teach our children about sex and responsibility early, so they learn that if you're going to have sex, you'd better take precautions, and be prepared to deal with the results.

For the record, the abortion issue will never be resolved. One side is arguing science, the other side is arguing religion. Neither side is willing to find a common ground for the purpose of rational debate.

EDIT: Yep, the flames are happening already!

[Krystalline Kabutops]

VC Post 1: I think you've answered your own question here, but here's one for you: If life is so important, then why do you eat things that used to live? Name any food, it's got something living in there. Sometimes we just have to make choices about these things. Also, abortion is a way of keeping worl population in check. Better to "kill" a few fetuses then have concious, feeling people in a third world country dying of starvation. Addtionally, Captain Dean is right on all those counts about Bush.

VC Post 2: You're forgetting how painful childbirth is. That's an important factor.

VC Post 3: The whole debate over abortion is centered on one question: When does conciousness begin? Conservatives think that it starts as soon as the egg has been fertilized, or at some other early stage. Liberals believe that once it is recognizably human, it has conciousness. Frankly, I think both sides are way off, but the Liberals aren't quite as far off as you and your kin.

Suite Madame Blue: Awesomely put. Couldn't agree more.

[VampireCharizard]

I don't even know which is for which -science is for abortion? idk but I'm still against it. You all have very good points, but You're not going to convince me or anyone that feels this strongly that's it's ok to have an abortion. because we know it's not. I realize that most teenage girls can't or maybe won't take care of their child but they can do adoption and Im sorry that there are abbusive people but i still feel it's better to allow your child to live their life out to the fullest. and the republican party keeps the govt. out of personal life, and allow you to do what you want with YOUR body, but your child is not your body or YOUR soul. It may be part of your body, but it won't be for long. and even if they are abused as children, they will grow up to have their own life and maybe have children and get married and get a job, be president, the possibilties are endless, but if you have an abortion... the child will have NO possibilites NO hope NO joy in life. and it seems a bit selfish to have an abortion so you don't have any pain. just to point out I'm trying not to flame anyone and i won't be in the later parts of this post... Flame me all you want I'm not changing my mind that abortion is wrong and as for the living thing eating thing. just so you're clear on this - THAT'S HOW THE WORLD WORKS. you expect us to eat rocks? no. Now I'm against canibals so there! shove that up your arse! And we don't all eat human beings. we also all don't kill. except murderurs. and stuff. oh bloody hell know what i mean And I admit there may have been a few reasons not to go to war with iraq, but you rather sadam hussein be IN power? and the casualties in a year's time are nothing compared to what we lost in WW 1, 2, the korean war, ect's year's time. the averages easily double or triple or quadiradicallytriplyquadrupale the casualties so there with my number thingy

[Suite Madame Blue]

and even if they are abused as children, they will grow up to have their own life and maybe have children and get married and get a job, be president, the possibilties are endless,

Your thinking is naive. Abused children will most likely grow up to be nothing but abusers, unless they have a positive outside influence.

The arguments generally swing this way:

Liberals/Democrats - pro-abortion - science
Conservatives/Republicans - anti-abortion - religion

Keep in mind that there are both pro- and anti-abortionists within each party. As for adoption, it would be nice if every baby were wanted, but that's not the case. Some babies are just deemed unadoptable for whatever reason. Also, look at the booming business of fertility clinics. Unfortunately, there's still a stigma associated with adoption, as if the child is somehow second-rate, and as if the birth mother is somehow cruel for "giving away" her own child. I am pro-adoption, for obvious reasons, but I'm also realistic.

Your beliefs are your beliefs. You're not an idiot for believing that way. Just be sure to educate yourself so that you can defend them coherently and intelligently, without resorting to personal abuse yourself. And be prepared to walk away knowing that you can't change another's beliefs, because the abortion issue has a way of polarizing people.

[Iveechan]

I didn't read the long paragraphs.

I'm against the partial birth type of abortion. I think that when the fetus starts reacting the outside noise and begins to make its presence known then you should not abort. But, you know, first trimester thing, it's fair game. Abortion is really needed for cases where a woman was raped or, god forbid, just careless and ended up doing a HUGE mistake. Some people will say "Well, let the idiot learn her lesson, she should have been more careful", but it's wrong to punish the baby too. I soppose death is also punishment but... hrm. I normally try to stay away topics like these because it's such a foggy and grey area. I'm not liberal by the way nor a conservative. I dislike grouping myself. I just have my own opinion on things.

[The Muffin Man]

I don't know why I'm even bothering to post to this topic, because I know how it's going to go: My reasonable post will get ignored, this thread will disintegrate into a flame war, and a mod will close the topic. Here goes anyway. Foolish me.

I'm a Republican too, and I support abortion. And, for the record, I'm also adopted. Yes, killing is wrong. HOWEVER - it's more wrong to bring an unwanted baby into the world and subject it to a lifetime of neglect and possibly abuse. I'm lucky - I was wanted by somebody, abortion was illegal in 1967, and my birth mom didn't believe in abortion anyway. Others are not so lucky. I know of a few young mothers where I live who got pregnant while in high school or right after, and were pressured to keep their babies BY THEIR PEERS. Other 17-year-old girls who can barely take care of themselves, let alone a child. You just know they'll end up on welfare and be a burden to the state. And welfare means higher taxes.

The problem really is that the religious groups have given lots and lots of money to the Republican party to push their own agenda, including anti-abortion, and money talks. Republicans have to remember their party's core philosophy: The government stays out of people's private lives. What I do with my body is none of the government's concern, including abortion. It's better to terminate a pregnancy than to cause suffering to an already-born child. It's better still to teach our children about sex and responsibility early, so they learn that if you're going to have sex, you'd better take precautions, and be prepared to deal with the results.

For the record, the abortion issue will never be resolved. One side is arguing science, the other side is arguing religion. Neither side is willing to find a common ground for the purpose of rational debate.

EDIT: Yep, the flames are happening already!

Read her post. And LISTEN to what she has to say.

Why? BECAUSE SHE CAN HAVE KIDS AND IT'S HER ****ING BODY THAT'S GONNA GO THROUGH WITH THIS! God...why the **** are there so many GUYS trying to end abortion? Until your wife/girlfriend/sister(just for you, Vamp) comes up to you with the decision of getting an abortion, shut UP. You can be against it all you want, but unless you are personally able to get an abortion or personally affected by one, pro-life is out of your hands. "But what about pro-choice?" Because we say "Hey. Do what ya want." See? See? CHOICE.

Anyway, Abortion isn't birth control. I'll agree with anyone on that. But a girl who's 15 and raped, or her boyfriend said "Oh we won't get pregnant the first time" or something like that shouldn't have a baby she can't take care of. It's just not fair to her OR the child that they suffer because of some problem. Adoptions not always such an amazing idea anyway. As the child grows up, they may eventually wonder WHY they were left for adoption. They're not all as lucky as Madam Blue and ending up coming out as well-adjusted members of society.

[VampireCharizard]

when my sister (19) got pregnant, she was pressured beyond beleif to get an abortion by her friends, the child's father, and even her mother. She refused because she knew she held a life with her - even thoguh she couldn't afford the child, and her boyfriend was a crack head, she kept her baby, got a second job, ect. she came out well and my sister is still almost struggling through every day life but her baby gives her joy and happiness. And we have a beuatiful addition to our family and she doesn't regret anything so yes it has affected me

[The Muffin Man]

when my sister (19) got pregnant, she was pressured beyond beleif to get an abortion by her friends, the child's father, and even her mother. She refused because she knew she held a life with her - even thoguh she couldn't afford the child, and her boyfriend was a crack head, she kept her baby, got a second job, ect. she came out well and my sister is still almost struggling through every day life but her baby gives her joy and happiness. And we have a beuatiful addition to our family and she doesn't regret anything so yes it has affected me

Wait...

"My sister was pressured to get an abortion, even by her boyfriend who's a crackhead, and my mother who I've said is one of the biggest conservatives in the state/country...Not only did you toss in the crackhead line(Either your sisters an idiot for having a kid WITH HIM, or you tried to attack pro-choice) AND you can't keep your story about your mom straight.

[VampireCharizard]

i guess i didn't make it clear that we don't have the same mom O_o sorry bout that we're half bro/sis we share the same dad and he's not really a crack head i just said that cause he was encouraging her to get an abortion. He's nice and stuff oh he's sane too. lol

[CaptainDean]

Lying does not make for a good argument when you get caught.

[Wigglytuff]

Dean wins this thread.

- Wigglytuff

[VampireCharizard]

bloody hell just cause I'm conservative and have different beleifs than you does NOT mean that I lie about who is my sister or mother and who is not. You're simply using our political differences to make my mistake into a stupid lie. And really, why the hell would i lie about my mother to win a stupid little debate that wasn't even SUPPOSED to be a debate? screw you, and your entirley false accusations.

[Wigglytuff]

It's idiots like you who ruin Misc. because you guys kill the place with all these stupid religious/retarded debates.

[Heald]

Lying does not make for a good argument when you get caught.

And no one told this to TRO while he was here because...?

IMHO, abortion can be a touchy issue. I say ban abortions. That way it is equal. Men can't get abortions. Ban abortions, neither can women. Equality.

And if anyone thinks that is my real opinion and argument had better go fornicate themselves with a hot iron rod.

In truth, I really don't care. Some babies die, some babies live. If my girlfriend/fiancée/wife/lifemate was pregnant with my seed, I would probably be against abortion.

[VampireCharizard]

it wasn't meant to be a debate and if you don't like it , then don't come to this preticullar thread. (for wigglytuff)

[Little_Pikachu]

I'm pro abortion, pretty much for the reasons above stated. Womans body, womans choice (isn't that a magazine?). Politically? This isn't a political issue. It's one womans choice to ruin her life for 9 months or not. I don't think that guy should've been done for double murder. If you want to start charging people for killing things which are unaware of what's going on and no one wants, then start arresting people who kill animals... Heck, let's arrest kids who pick flowers!

If I didn't know that you were male prior to this topic, I would've definatly guessed now.

[Crazy]

If a woman is raped then abortion is fine due to the fact that it wasn't their fault. Now if a woman had sex intentionally(bad spelling) then she should take care of the baby that her and her idiotic boyfriend had. Simple as that.

[VampireCharizard]

I understand that under the circumstances of rape, abortion... may be a good choice... but as crazy pointed out not if it was consential (i can't spell either) IDK i shouldn't have posted this... lol

[Kris]

He shouldnt get double murder, only single murder. Thats not fair on him at all.

I dont know what to say about abortion really, I know if I got pregnant at the moment I would defiantly have an abortion as I couldnt have a child at the moment. It wouldnt be fair on the child when it was born.

But then I do look at it that it is a child that is being killed.

I dont know, I just hope I dont come up to it.

[Charles Legend]

I with Vampie on this Life is the Gift of God the father, now tell me is it right for man to pick a chose who lives and who dies? No it's not the 8th comamet that God gave Mosses plainy states that"thou Shal not kill" which means God vewes Abortion as killing a person, and that the solotion is for the mother that dose not want the baby is to cary the baby then give it up for adoption.....


I, don't care what yopu say, if a coule wants to have sex and not take the full responce abilaties of becomeing parants then they should juast avoid having Sex.....

Because werther you like or not God made sex for the prouse of gioving humans the blessing of haveing and rasing up a family, so to thouse of you that are librals go suck a limon, you think just becuse you have aten of t6he frout of knowlage that you have the mind of God well sorry to burst your bouble of irerents but you don't all you go by is your own human understanding alone!

Just open up your eyes at what your throwing awaya baby is a baby at the time of conseption, In the mind of God Abortion is just as bad as the killing of say a child or an adut, And it's are responce abilaty not a right to pick wearther of not to Portect Life at all levals! It's most Crictal doring the frist nine months of life!

You may not agree with me but Babies even ones that are still in the form of a fertized egg have Soul/sprite and Derve to live, no mader the hardships and triles they may face in there Lifves.....

God gave Life these babies for a reson, and you know in your heart what I am saying is the truth and you can't deniy it, my words are like the salt that is erating your wond and you can fell it buring to can't you?

oh and for the record I am a conseritive/Repuclacon and I am also a Stong beliver in Jesus who becam a man to die for are sins, on that the Cross of calvory, he sacorficed himself for all mankind inlouding babies still in ther mother's womb so, don't you think it's fair that we honer his sacorfice by giving babies the chace to live like Jesus did so that we could be with him in Eteraty if we beived in him, that sonds like a good deal to me.

How about you, are you going to folow him in portecting livesor are you going to folow the world and the was of Satin?

Myslf, I like many before am giving up evry thing to folow him, not because I have to but because is the Right thing to do.

Anywas as you may have noticed I am aginst Abortion all the way, and I am Pro life and por adoption....

btw Opaque Onigoori to answered your questions

1.It's only wrong to kill People, and pets not cows and other farm animals for food.

1.2 True but it's still wrong to do.


2. I may not be a woman but I can tell you one thing, who gives a rip if childbirth is painful, is Painfal becuse you wemon still carry the curse GFod placed on Eve after she sined, so git over it

3. I strongly belive that conseption has three paerts to it,Fertlization,
planting, the Start of Growth.


1. Fertalization of the Egg, just like like in plants.

2.Like a famer planting corn seeds in the ground, so dose the feralized Egg plant it's self in the Urtro lining.

2.1.Like a Seedling just starting to lay it's frist root So dode the Fretlized Egg devide in to many cells that stat the formation of baby/ies.

Can't you atlest grasp that life begins when we plant are seeds?

~Ryu

[phaedrus]

The "Bush-bashing" you speak of happens because quite frankly, Bush is also an idiot. He's crapped all over education, the economy, human rights, and sent not only his own army, but the army of several other nations off to fight a war based on fabricated and falsified evidence to topple a harmless regime.

Bushism of the Day:

"Is our children learning?"

I with Vampie on this Life is the Gift of God the father, now tell me is it right for man to pick a chose who lives and who dies? No it's not the 8th comamet that God gave Mosses plainy states that"thou Shal not kill" which means God vewes Abortion as killing a person, and that the solotion is for the mother that dose not want the baby is to cary the baby then give it up for adoption.....

Abortion does not consider an embryo a human.

[CaptainDean]

Learn how to speak English before trying to make a political statement. Is that too much to ask?

[Checkmate]

Republicans have to remember their party's core philosophy: The government stays out of people's private lives. What I do with my body is none of the government's concern, including abortion.

But what you do with someone else's body is plenty of the government's concern. That's why murder is illegal.

This whole debate centers around the question "Is a fetus a baby?" For one thing, 'fetus' is the latin word for baby. But I doubt anyone cares about that. Babies have their own heartbeat, brain activity, etc. Their organs don't just spontaneously appear in place when they're born. Here's some more food for thought:

http://humanlife.net/actionalerts.html

[Heald]

Learn how to speak English before trying to make a political statement. Is that too much to ask?

For George W. Bush? Yes.

[CaptainDean]

Actually I was talking to Ryu Slayer X 2.0 but good point.

Checkmate, your ignorance never ceases to amaze me.

[Sorovis]

Checkmate brings up a good point. The child, whether it has conscious thought at the time or not, has the potential be a great person. Even if he/she grew up to be an average citizen, nobody has the right to take a child's future away.

Deciding whether a someone lives or dies should not be a question of convenience. The world has other means of keeping the human population in check.

[Heald]

Ryu Slayer X 2.0, please post more often. I haven't laughed that hard since WPM posted that picture of the spinny circle.

Come on, I'm dying to hear more about Jesus' 'sacorfice' and how you are a 'conseritive/Repuclacon'.

[VampireCharizard]

Scott peterson (if he did indeed murder his wife AND unborn son) was totally aware of the fact that his wife was pregnant and close to bringing LIFE to this world. And I beleive that conception is the start of life. (obviously) And so what if he has typos? did you even READ it or just stare in awe your stupidity at the paltry errors? I got the message clearly and you should have too. *with the aid of the article* so the mother ENDS a life and causes EXTREME pain (to a baby 20 wks into pregnancy) just to avoid her own discomforts? absolutely sickning if that's her only reason.

[Angel Blossom]

*cough* I think I now realized why people at ummmm treat Dean like he's an *******. -_-

First of all, how is VampireCharizard wrong? My God, have you ever heard of something we call an opinion? He could have easily said that you were wrong, Dean, but he didn't. He probably has more common sense than you do. Second of all, Wigglytuff, the person you defended is the reason why Miscellaneous is nothing but arguments & flame-filled debates. It could have been an intelligent discussion, but your friend just had to be a jerk about the whole topic.

Now, anyway..

Scott Peterson's actions should be counted as a double murder. She was in a late stage of pregnancy. What difference does it make if the baby is inside of her or out? It is a human being who had potential; it could have lived and grown up like the rest of us. Same with abortions, IMO. Maybe the fetus isn't up and running, but think about it. It will be. I agree completely with Sorovis. Taking the life, the future of a human who may have done so much for the world or who may have been an average being is wrong.

Also, I know this sounds harsh, but I've realized that it isn't right for the life of the baby either if the woman had sex irresponsibly or if she was raped. Its still a fetus, isn't it? I know that if I were raped, I would want an abortion, but it still isn't right because the fetus is still a life either way. Besides rape, I think that women should take responsibility for what they do. Don't give me that "woman's body, woman's choice" ****. I mean, if they were being dumb with men all night, they have to pay for their idiotic behavior.

It is their fault when they don't wait until they're ready for a baby. Even if they are young, I think that the parents or someone else needs to take care of it. Running away from your problems by abortion is just stupid, to be honest. Put it up for adoption or whatever, but don't take its life away.

EDIT: No, Dean, I won't kiss your ass.

[CaptainDean]

Kiss my ****ing ass Kris.

[VampireCharizard]

she's right! I didn't post this thread for a debate. You jumped in and not only call me an idiot, but put down the president of the United states, the dude who was ELECTED to be our leader. I admit he's made some mistakes, but not the most out of any president. You just can't handle that he beat Clinton's ass licker.