Subtitute: 101 ways to take them off.

[Lord Raven]

Ok, since Fire Red/Leaf Green made this move so popular, we have to endure all the subtitutes combos like subtitute/focus punch, subtitute/dragon dance, subtitute/ninjask. Is like a big soup with almost everything in it.

Now the point is, how I kill this subtitute invasion? This remember me the days when curselax was new, when everyone never left their homes without one.

First, this are the moves I already know than can help agains subtitute.

-Perish Song/Mean Look combo = They have no safe place to go if I can use my Gengar`s combo for that and Confuse ray/Protect.

I`m searching for combos or moves that can knock out this evil subtitute invasion. Gengar`s combo is good, but not durable. So is good to have a book called: Subtitute: 101 ways to take them off.

Maybe you want to help me and post some others combos or ideas for this. I`m going to post any other ways that can help with this.

[Silent Dragonfly]

A move that hit the opponent twice or more will firstly break the substitute then hit the opponent also. Bonemerang and Rock Blast are some these moves

[Lord Raven]

That a cool one cloudizme. I`m working now with Encore, but this sound more interesting. Thanks.

So, now we have two entrys:

-Perish Song (for made them change) for stats raisers pokes. Including Perish Song/Mean Look Combo.

-Move that hit opponet for 2-5 times (Bonemerang, Rock Blast).

[andyizcool]

Taunt would force them to attack and not use moves like Substitute/Dragon Dance/Swords Dance/Calm Mind.

[DaBlackBandit]

Seismic Toss, Night Shade, Dragon Rage. Unless the Subs are 101.

But, a Sub also helps the opponent switch or Dance up once, so it's a win/win situation. I mean if a pokemon is Sub-Punching, the Sub is move ones, and someone could just Dragon Dance, then kill the sub, most Sub Punch would switch to a Ghost type, or Flying type that is resitant it right?

[rinku]

Encore works two ways, and depends on speed and previous move.

1) Can force them to keep using Substitute for 2-5 turns (which burns up PP and possibly HP.

2) Can prevent them using Substitute for 2-5 turns

Snatch will allow you to *steal* their sub.

Taunt will work, but it does not appear to totally prevent non-attack moves. I've been studying it in the wild and what it appears to do is prevent a non-attack move only until the opponent has made an attack move on a later turn. Really only works well if you are faster. Unless it works differently for link battles.

Double Kick and Bonemarang attack twice at decent power, which makes them good Sub breakers (especially vs vulnerables). The other multi-attack moves are weaker and vary from 2-5 attacks (Rock Blast is a bit more powerful than most, but is inaccurate). But all of them can destroy subs and still score damage (which is very important for countering sub-punchers).

Roar & Whirlwind will switch them out and destroy the sub.

Perish Song will *eventually* take them down or force a switch. Cold Comfort if they sub-punch two or three of your team out in the process.

Switching in a pokémon that they can't hurt easily. Can be risky, but if you can take what they dish out, and keep blowing away the subs with normal attacks, eventually they will run out of HP.

Weather damage affects pokémon directly, not the sub.

Future Sight & Doom Desire can be used to deliver two attacks on the same turn. First one destroys the Sub, second one hits the target. Not sure on the timing of these, though. The fact that you don't know exactly when the extra attack is going to land complicates the defender's choices - the attacker just sets it up and keeps attacking.

[Ice Rabbit]

Taunt works for the turn it's used, plus the turn after.

Dragon Rage does 40 damage period, it doesn't do damage based on level.

Future Sight & Doom Desire can be used to deliver two attacks on the same turn. First one destroys the Sub, second one hits the target. Not sure on the timing of these, though. The fact that you don't know exactly when the extra attack is going to land complicates the defender's choices - the attacker just sets it up and keeps attacking.

The effect is set. It takes two turns, it's not random. The defender knows when it's going to hit. So does the attacker.

-Perish Song/Mean Look combo = They have no safe place to go if I can use my Gengar`s combo for that and Confuse ray/Protect.

You know they can just switch to something that can kill Gengar before you use Mean Look. And since it can't attack, you're screwed if you see any fast Pokémon with Taunt (sort of).

Roar/Whirlwind (or any other form of switch forcing)
Rock Blast/Bonemerang/etc.
Snatch (though you just steal the effect, you can't Snatch 101 subs unless you have 404 HP)
Taunt (if you're faster, you can stop them from subbing and possibly get a free turn)
Encore (forces switch, you get free turn unless they predict and switch to a CBer or something)
Predicting when they'll sub and breaking it the turn it's made.

[rinku]

The effect is set. It takes two turns, it's not random. The defender knows when it's going to hit. So does the attacker.

So it is. What was I thinking of? Possibly the 2-3 turns that Thrash works for?

In any case, just because the opponent knows it's coming doesn't mean it's a bad anti-sub move.

[MeLoVeGhOsTs]

Try Tauntrode.

It's faster then most things.

Electrode @ Leftovers/Petaya Berry
-Substitute
-Taunt
-Thunderbolt
-HP Grass/HP Ice

I made this little beast up to stop certain things from being able top set up properly, such as ruining Jolteons Substitute, and stopping Ninjask from passing/dancing, it works quite well.
The idea behind considering Petaya is that he gets 387 Sp.Atk with the Petaya Berry, which isn't really that bad, the bad thing is, it still doesn't pack a humongous amount of power, thus Leftovers is overall better.

[Lord Raven]

Ok, I`m was reading all the things you said, and I like it. Sorry because I`m not post anything in this days. Is because I have my own Pokemon club in the weakends, and I was a little busy with that. I will read and test all the moves and combos you suggest and post a reply listing all the ways to take out a Subtitute in diferent situations. Thanks for the help and if you now another move or combo, please post it.

[rinku]

One other category that is useful are *slow* attacks - either ones like Vital Throw (a highly underrated move IMHO) or just sluggish pokémon. Sub-punching won't work if they can't get a sub up *after* your pokémon has acted, and the other strategies are hindered if they have to keep putting subs up every turn. They can't generally put up more than 4-5 subs in a row, even with leftovers and sapping moves.