The Chunky Clefable Cafe

[Silencer]

My open challenge still needs a ref. If any of you two are up to it?

[Dark Dragonite]

I'm not a ref right now, been ages since I reffed, things changed a lot, don't think I'm up to it yet...

Who is reffing your match against wolfsong?

Ace64 has a style where after hitting 0% energy, they still attack, but less power, and less speed, after, they get a second wind 35%energy, after that, they fall...I like this idea

I may have a free spot soon, me vs. conspiracy
Dark Dragonite's Team

Requiem the Duskull(M)
Health: 55%
Energy: 48%
Status: Satisfied


c0n5p1r4cy's Team

Nitra the Heracross(F)
Health: 53%
Energy: 54%
Status: Confused; no longer burnt (Swords Dance is back in effect; attack boosted by 2/6, or 33%)

Also, me Vs. Wolfsong

Post-Battle Status
Wolfsong pokemon: OOO
Horatio
HP: 82%
Energy: 68%
Safeguard for 2 more rounds
Mouth hurts
Attack Power Up
DD Pokemon : OOO
WW [Water]
HP: 66%
Energy: 79%
His eyes are scary

Arena: Raining once again.

[Silencer]

Let's see, I filled my 4 sloths

me vs Ace64, reffing done by MeLoveGhosts. Ace is on last, my first is about to faint
me vs Wolfsong, reffing done by CharlesLegend (if he remembers it) last pokémons
me vs Crystal Tears, reffing done by River is just getting started for 3on3
me vs Chris2.0, reffing done by Crystal Tears at first pokémons for 3on3

So perhaps my match with Amy/Wolfsong will get done soon and I might issue a challenge ^^

[Ace64]

Lately, all the matches I see aren't battles, but endurance challenges. I could probably count the number of HP KO's on one hand. So, I tried something different with energy- which, I should note, I got the idea from Elec Man and kind of played around with it. It seems to work well enough.

[Dark Dragonite]

I think it's great, I'd rather fall for no health, than be killed by energy loss, especially when there are moves that drain energy...

[The Blue Avenger]

I personally don't like that, just because you don't get a second wind when you run out of health, so why should you get a second chance when you run out of energy? But hey, that's just me. I haven't actually reffed that many things that came down to energy loss.

[Ace64]

If you haven't reffed that many energy KO's, then it's probably not something you need to worry about. I use it because I personally feel that my energy loss is a little too high. It's a difficult balance- you shouldn't be able to use damaging moves for little energy, but a match will take forever if attacks do too little damage. I just hate reffing matches where both opponents have commands like "Relax, Ember, Relax." This way, matches take the same amount of time, with the same amount of strategy.

[The Blue Avenger]

The only match I've reffed where it actually has come down to that is the tourney match between Andrew and WO, but thst'a because they both used a variety of really energy consuming moves and yet didn't actually get damaged that much. ...Or at least Andrew's Pokemon didn't, since he put a Substitute up.

[Andrew]

Its not my fault i rock. Lol. I just want it to be over so i can win! Hopefully. Oh we know i'm gonna win. But against tba. Eek! Who will win the big tourney?

[Mega Horny]

Ace, this is all my fault right? When we had our epic energy battle in the sea? Lol, you were pretty annoyed

[Ace64]

YES! Did you know, I considered banning 'Relax' in all my current matches? Heh...I got over it...eventually.

[Saffire Persian]

Did you know, I considered banning 'Relax' in all my current matches? Heh...I got over it...eventually.

Was it... that bad? XD

[Ace64]

Well..this was like my second match in ASB, and it turned into an endurance battle. Basically, it was us trying to figure out to waste each other's energy. I would use three attacks, and MH would basically run away and relax while I wasted moves. Eventually, I forfeited, cuz it was too much trouble.

[Vermillion]

Well..this was like my second match in ASB, and it turned into an endurance battle. Basically, it was us trying to figure out to waste each other's energy. I would use three attacks, and MH would basically run away and relax while I wasted moves. Eventually, I forfeited, cuz it was too much trouble.

That sucks...most of my reffings end in energy lost, mostly b/c I take in account type advantage and disadvantage. If a Normal type is using a fire type attack, it wastes more energy is my book. It does suck to have a battle end in exhaustion but I think I'm going to take Hyperness' approach, in that when your stamina is depleted you simply lose a turn to rest up and gain energy to fight on, that way, it's still health lost b/c your open to attack.

[Saffire Persian]

It does suck to have a battle end in exhaustion but I think I'm going to take Hyperness' approach, in that when your stamina is depleted you simply lose a turn to rest up and gain energy to fight on, that way, it's still health lost b/c your open to attack.

That's the way I intend to Ref things, too, if I ever Ref a battle that gets that far energy-wise.

[Blademaster]

You know, seeing Vermillion's last post just gave me a reffing brainstorm - As energy depletes, wouldn't power also depleting be sensible?

What I mean is, say you have a Dugtrio out with 100% energy, and it uses Earthquake. It would shake up the arena with about 6-7 force on the Richter Scale, and consume 10 energy.

Now, let's say it's a few rounds later, and Dugtrio is at 46% energy. It uses Earthquake, but this Earthquake is only about a 4 on the Richter Scale, and it uses 5 energy.

Now, fast-forward another few rounds - Dugtrio is at 18% energy and it uses Earthquake; this Earthquake is a piddly 2 on the Richter Scale, and its sucks up 3 energy.

Wouldn't that help solve a lot of these Endurance match problems? HP damage likely wouldn't vary too much since a lot of attacks IMO would do similar amounts of damage no matter how strong they are - a Flamethrower at any level still burns, an Icy Wind still freezes you up, a Thundershock still shocks you and locks up your muscles...

A few points difference in HP likely wouldn't change things too much, but it could help decrease these annoying Energy-KO's which I don't really find plausible - strictly from a scientific standpoint, wouldn't having 0 energy kill you? Wouldn't no energy mean no power for your brain, no pumping in your heart and lungs? No matter how weak you get from energy loss, you still would have to have some minimal amount for your body to keep itself alive on - besides, it's a fundamental law of physics that energy can't be created or destroyed - it can only change it's form, and potential and kinetic are the only 2 energy types there are - moving or nonmoving. Pick one.

Sorry for getting all scientific, but I just don't really truly understand how energy KO's work - HP could be compared to consciousness, and when it hits zero, you'd faint. But energy? No matter how beaten up you are, you have to have some energy left - even if you're dead, there's still energy in your body moving your atoms around...

Anyway, that's my idea, and I think I may just start implementing it...

[The Blue Avenger]

Well, something to think about is that the energy counter in any match can be seen as the amount of energy avaliable to be expended before the Pokemon cannot spare any more without giving up some vital function (ie breathing), and consequently faints. Just as having 0 health does not mean you are dead, having 0 energy does not literally mean you have no energy at all left.

And there's a fundamental flaw in your idea, if I'm reading it correctly: if your energy consumption goes down, the damage it deals would also go down. I mean, think about it: which is gonna hurt worse? An earthquake that barely shakes the ground or a full-fledged, "get in a doorway, this one's a doozy" natural disaster? And going by the same theory, a Pokemon with little energy wouldn't be able to do a full-fledged Flamethrower, and so it would be more comparable to, say, Ember. I don't ref like that because it seems unnecessarily cruel to the person who is losing: they would have absolutely no hope of regaining a lead if the opponent gets a lucky shot in. At least, by making damage and energy consumption somewhat stable, the playing field is levelled a bit.

[Ace64]

Yeah, I agree with TBA on this one, Blade. If anything, it should be reversed- it's easier to perform an Earthquake when you're fresh, and harder when you're worn out. Damage should stay the same either way, because you'd be struggling to keep the Earthquake on the same power level as your previous ones.

I don't like the 'lose a turn' for energy approach, because it seems like such a penalty...I'd take the free turn and wail away with Hyper Beams, and the match might end right there. At least with a second wind, you still have a chance to fight back.

[Crystal Tears]

[color=orange][font=sylfaen] Whoa... O.o Apparently defeat by energy reaching zero is a problem for aloooot of people. X_x

Well, could you give Pokemon energy in between reffings? Like... After the three actions are given, what are the Pokemon doing while both trainers issue the next set of actions? Nothing. So couldn't you give a Pokemon energy (equal amounts mind you), because all they're really doing is... Standing there?

I'm not saying a mass amount, but enough to give the battle a chance to end by health zero point then to energy.

Or you know... You could just boost up the damage each attack does while taking away the energy (or just boost up the damage), thus... You get a higher chance of health K.O rather then the dreaded Energy.

[Elec Man EXE]

Down with the evil energy KO's!

I'm still playing around with how I'm going to deal with the energy loss. My original idea was if you hit 0%, you lost a full round (3 turns) where your pokemon can take no action, but after that you get another 30%-ish energy. Still important to try and conserve your energy, because its a free 3 attacks against you if you run out (but not an insta-KO).

But much as Ace got his idea from me, I'm thinking about thieving his back. 3 turns of absolutely no defense is a bit harsh (and in a lot of cases may as well be an energy KO, just after you get attacked), and I like Ace's idea that you can still attack, but your weaker and slower until you get your energy back.

[Dark Dragonite]

It could also be played out as energy goes into -%, and you lose an action, then 2, then you faint...around maybe -35% or something.

[Elec Man EXE]

The problem with that is, while it does give you more energy to work with, it still has you ending up in relax battles, just at -35 intead of 0%.

With the "you can still battle, but just with less efficiency until you gain more energy" thing, not as much of a relax fight.

[Saffire Persian]

Down with the evil energy KO's!

That's what I thought, too. But some people like energy KOs, it seems. Yeesh. @_@ Tough crowd.

But much as Ace got his idea from me, I'm thinking about thieving his back. 3 turns of absolutely no defense is a bit harsh (and in a lot of cases may as well be an energy KO, just after you get attacked), and I like Ace's idea that you can still attack, but your weaker and slower until you get your energy back.

That is another nice way to do it. I just hate the idea of energy knock outs. I've seen a battle in another forum where the battler had 58% HP and 1% (How it got to that exact number...anyway) energy. I thought it was so unfair it had so much HP left, but automatically got knocked out in the very next turn, no contest whatsoever. I mean, they don't have energy in the games, just HP.

Well, if you count "PP" as energy, then even though your move energy hits zero, you can still attack down to where you have to Struggle. Bah, I just plain dislike those kinds of KOs.

[Ace64]

Well, you tend to hate energy KO's more once you've had a lot of them. Like I said before, that match with MH really stuck in my head... I must been up 20% health, but we were both lagging around 10% energy...MLG hated us, I'm pretty sure. There was one round where we did nothing but Relax.

I guess another alternative would be too raise the amount of energy Relax gives you... I stick with +5%, but too much and you get unrealistic.

[Dark Dragonite]

Well, if I can get by without an energy KO in this round, I may just make it to the finals, I love Sableye, covers all weaknesses, probably the only pokemon with no weaknesses...and I would say his movepool is pretty good as well.

[darktyranitar]

Energy KO... yes, a lot of the match I ref ends with an energy KO.

Boy, all this talk/comments on the energy level caused me to reconsider my reffing. Granted, I remember the first match I ref: MH VS MLG. At the last round, MH ordered his Growlithe to use three Overheat when his energy is on a low 11%, and his HP at a 45%. At first, I ref it as "performing a weak overheat, and then sat down on the floor, with little energy left". Of course, MH and MLG then pointed out about the energy KO thing (I didn't know about that at first), and so I re-ref the round so that MH's Growlithe was KOed. But, I guess that MH deliberately did that to end the round quickly...

Hmm, I can't agree on which method to lower the chance of energy KO... I might pick one of them for my reffing.

[Saffire Persian]

Well, when I was thinking how to do it, when the opponent got low on energy they'd probably attack last as they'd use those few moments for a slight breather, as well, as you said, make the attack a bit lower than normal, and use the extra time that it would've spent gaining back a little energy. I dunno :/ 'Tis a tough thing.

[Negrek]

I personally don't mind energy KO's. It takes at least as much skill to force your opponent into losing all their energy as it does to eliminate HP. I'll agree that relax rounds suck, but an experienced player can take enough advantage of them that they're really not a problem. Taking Saffire Persian's example, a player is stuck with 53% health and 1% energy. Under ordinary circumstances, he could just relax for a round and have enough left to go by. However, his opponent used taunt, so he's forced to attack and will undoubtedly expend his last energy point. I don't see how that's less strategic than knocking away a last point of health from an opposing pokemon.

If you're seriously worried about it, though, all you have to do is drop the energy cost for damaging attacks. A lot of refs have damaging attacks cost only one to two points of energy less to use than the damage that they deal. Since most battles involve numerous non-damaging attacks, all of which cost energy, energy is therefore depleted a lot more quickly than HP, since all attacks cost energy but only damaging ones affect the opponent's HP. By scaling back the amount of energy to use an attack, so that it needs, perhaps, three or four energy less than the actual attack does, it can compensate for non-damaging moves and keep HP and energy values more equal. Also, it would help to stop the use of a lot of attacks that people don't like--substitute and toxic, for example. These attacks are most useful in endurance matches, where you can anticipate that the opponen will be spending a lot of time recovering energy and setting up defenses of their own. If offensive moves were made more lucrative to use, then stalling tactics would be less viable and matches would become more agressive.

[RaZoR LeAf]

I dislike reffing a match where the pokemon end up exhausted. So I cut down on the percentages I used for energy consumption. Only by about 1% or 2%, but it seemed to make a big difference. I think my problem was (and is) that when people say 'Relax', I don't have the pokemonr ecover energy unless they are recovering for more than one action. I don't see how not doing anything for a few seconds is recovering. When I ref they just don't loose energy when Relaxing.

[The Blue Avenger]

I personally don't mind energy KO's. It takes at least as much skill to force your opponent into losing all their energy as it does to eliminate HP.

In my second match with Chris, that's how I beat his Blastoise... by stalling with a Carvanha. That's one of the many reasons why I'm okay with energy KOs.

[Dragonis]

Ok, I have a question and wasn't sure where to ask. Can you be in four battles and a tournament match, of does the tournament match count tworeds the four match limit?

[Dark Dragonite]

I am 99.9875% sure you can be in 4 and a tourney...as a few of us ASBers are right now, like me...

[Ultimate Charizard]

I guess i have a problem with Energy KO's. My own personal feelings is that a good battle shouldnt end just cos one pokemon gets Knackered first.
I tend to keep the Energy usage very low. In my last reffing i just had a Pokemon faint from HP loss but its Energy was still on 40%.

It will be very rare if you see an energy ko from me...unless people start complaining.

[Silencer]

I agree that energy KO's should be limited. In the anime that hardly happens. The only few times I consider that it might have happened is in situationsd such as Ash(pikachu) vs Drake(dragonite) during the orange league finals where both just stared each other down.

But then again, in the anime pokémon get knocked down after being hit by just 4 moves... and big and scary pokémon an kill 6 small and cute pokémon...

[Ace64]

Yes, that's the example I was thinking of to, Silencer. But even there, they had both taken a hit, so you could say that it was HP that did them in. And sure, stalling is a good tactic and a useful enough strategy as anything else..but it's more common to see when your opponent brings a fresh Pokemon in against your tired one, not from the very start of a match. And there are plenty of matches where both Pokemon are both even in health, but energy is waaay low. I'll prolly lower the energy a bit, but I think I'll keep using the 'second wind,' too.

[Dark Dragonite]

can I have a safety match when I have an open spot?

No Energy...but also, no Strongest moves, like Thunder/Zap cannon, Blizzard, Fire blast/overheat, etc...

I want a real struggle of a battle, and that's the only way I know it would end in a well placed KO

[Mega Horny]

This may change some opinions -- heres the 'legendary' energy battle between Ace and I.

http://www.pokemasters.net/forums/in...?topic=43767.0

[The_Missing_Link]

Ok, I have a question and wasn't sure where to ask. Can you be in four battles and a tournament match, of does the tournament match count tworeds the four match limit?

Tournament battles are separated from regular battles

[Silencer]

Now that we are on point with the tournaments... Who feels like we should have some more?

Perhaps an actually league kinda tournament (as shown in the show) like a group stage in the beginning and then knock-out rounds.

I'd love to see a tournament like

3 people in group. They fight amongst eachother in 1vs1(PM pokés to ref to stop type advanteges). When the battle is over, the winner gets points, equal to the remaining HP of his pokémon. Most points in group stage wins. Winners of each group advance.

Then knock-out stage can be 1vs1 but perhaps 2vs2... and the finals I'd love to see a full 6on6 (or 4on4 seeing as that's the max people start with)

[Dark Dragonite]

I like Silencer's idea, we should have like a standings, kinda like the world cup, but with no horrible refs screwing teams over, LOL...I had to...

That was a tough match there, but does noone see how to end it sooner?( I do)