Surf all washed up?

[Fanha]

Testing shows that Surf's damage is cut in HALF when used in a 2-on-2 battle (because it hits both opponents). With this new defining difference in Surf, setting it away from the "all-purpose Water move", there's a lot to be discussed as to the future of the whole Water type. What moves will Waters use in 2-on-2, why, and how will it affect gameplay and overall effectiveness? Let's discuss!

It should be noted before further speculation ensues that Earthquake and other hit-all-but-user moves do NOT experience a damage cut like this; only "both opponent" targetting moves.

[Gligar_Man]

it still does the same amount of dmg but to both, there are advantages and disadvantages to this... it will change alot of things, personally i still like surf a bit, and on a water pogey w/STAB you still get around 71.25bp () on both opponents, wich isnt all too horrible considerring well... 70 is like the minimum for an acceptable battle move IMO meant solely for attacking, and this hits both, theres upsides and downsides to this, doing a not bad amount of dmg to both is a downside from doing a decent amount to both but in 2v2, you could hit both constantly while your other dude concentrates on one... i dont think well be seeing many unSTABd surf floating around anymore, but i personally am still going to be using it on water types... its not bad IMO, and what about pokemon that get moves like growth? [edit: was in a gsc frame of mind, i apologize], thats gonna be hard to take down, being it can concentrate a more powerful attack on both opponents... and it can enforce double switching, lol... say your opponent has a charizard and a marowak in play (just an example, wont happen often at all, lol) thats 2x the spikes dmg if you use it... its a double threat... but i think i said my 2 cents for now, ill be commenting if someone brings something to my attention later, so IMO, w/STAB, its not a bonus, its not a loss... w/out STAB, it wont be used much...

[Darkanine]

Surf rox teh soxors! its a great move, but only on water types.

[Oddish17]

Originally posted by Gligar_Man
iits not bad IMO, and what about pokemon that get moves like growth? like vaporeon for example wish growth substitute/filler surf, thats gonna be hard to take down

Vaporeon can't get Growth or Substitute. Nice try anyways

I must admit, even with stab Surf isn't nearly as good as I originally thought. The odds that you're going to go against two pokemon that will take decent damage from a 71 base power water attack are slim. If your opponent has one pokemon that is resistant to water attacks then your Surf is pretty much wasted, unless the other pokemon is 4x weak to it. Even then, it would have been better to use a water attack that just targets one pokemon(Waterfall anyone?).

[Gligar_Man]

meh, sorry about that, i was on the gsbot most of the day, my head wasnt in it, but thx for pointing it out, ... meh *pushes gsc out of his head for a while* and its not wasted, if one averages the dmg and one resists it IMO its still worth it... but i could be wrong, you probbaly owuldnt use surf if they both resisted it, and if they both switch, thats a plus... but when it comes down to the wire it gets worse... and my bad about that, thx oddish

edit: also my point stands though, hitting both aint bad for boosting s.a. IMO its better than hitting a single, cause if your other dude uses a dual attack its a bonus or take out one and injue other, meh... i dunno just figured id add this...

[Link]

Surf ain't that bad. Although hydro pump is pretty good if you want to knock out pokemon in 1 hit....though Surf could probbaly knock out pokemon that are weak to it in 1 hit too, hydro pump make not be bad either. Either way it's a good move to use on anyway with a decent SA..so use whichever you want.

[[McGraw]]

I'll probably use hydro pump in 2v2 then =P

[Bacl]

Originally posted by Oddish17
Vaporeon can't get Growth or Substitute.

Yeah but you can't get Vaporeon.

Unless you cheat.

And if you cheat then you can give it Growth or Substitute. Why not, right?

[Cheesey]

I like Surf, anyway.

Hydro Pump is a bit inaccurate for me, I prefer Surf. And besides, I don't really get into many 2v2 battles, so it's a reliable powerful water attack.

That's what I think. And it is decent in 2v2, kinda, anyway...

[MetalScyther]

Originally posted by Bacl
Yeah but you can't get Vaporeon.

Unless you cheat.

And if you cheat then you can give it Growth or Substitute. Why not, right?

We're talking about RSBot, no one cares about ingame battling. In RSBot, unobtainables can be used.

[DelusionsOfEuphoria]

Originally posted by MetalScyther
We're talking about RSBot, no one cares about ingame battling. In RSBot, unobtainables can be used.

What?! Gah! That sucks ***! I was hoping we'd at least get three months without seeing Snorlax and/or Blissey on EVERYONE'S team. Gah. That takes just about every strategy I had and throws it right out the damn window. :/

[Fanha]

Originally posted by DelusionsOfEuphoria
What?! Gah! That sucks ***! I was hoping we'd at least get three months without seeing Snorlax and/or Blissey on EVERYONE'S team. Gah. That takes just about every strategy I had and throws it right out the damn window. :/

Well, I'm going to include a feature for those who want to battle within the 200 legals to check that on opponents and allow them to know which as legal and which are not. I personally see validity to both arguements as to how the game should be played, and I see the need to omit neither, so both will be availible.

As for Surf being "decent damage" at 71.25, remember that Hidden Power was 70, and you didn't see that on every Pokemon out there, especially if it was not going to be super effective. Someone should run the numbers because I'm too lazy, but I doubt that Rhydon would be OHKOed by Surf in a few cases, especially non-STAB, and definitely not Marowak.

Another big problem with splitting damage is simple from the GSC Blissey problem: the Leftovers effect. Since Leftovers effectively "subtracts" a set amount of damage from every attack, if you're using Surf as your main attack, that effect is doubled since they will kick in for both targets. So the net damage, in a 2-on-2 battle around here, will probably be significantly less than half of the 95 base.

Oh, and for those who say "I won't play 2-on-2", I bet once it becomes popular on the bots, you will have to change your mind. 2-on-2 is the whole point of R/S. How silly to say you'll stick to 1-on-1 when it is just there to humor old fans of the series and not there because that's the main way to play as it was in the previous games. R/S has evolved beyond that narrow spectrum.

[ace]

Originally posted by DelusionsOfEuphoria
What?! Gah! That sucks ***! I was hoping we'd at least get three months without seeing Snorlax and/or Blissey on EVERYONE'S team. Gah. That takes just about every strategy I had and throws it right out the damn window. :/

Well you dont have to use the rsbot, unless knobody you know has RS, then you have a predicament. Im lucky, my brother, best friend and 2 other friends have ruby and saphire.

[Fanha]

Originally posted by ace
Well you dont have to use the rsbot, unless knobody you know has RS, then you have a predicament. Im lucky, my brother, best friend and 2 other friends have ruby and saphire.

Well, I think most of the discussions as far as strategy and metagame go are based around battling a wide audience in a large and well-educated metagame i.e. online battling.

[Kari and Mewtwo]

Originally posted by Fanha
Well, I'm going to include a feature for those who want to battle within the 200 legals to check that on opponents and allow them to know which as legal and which are not. I personally see validity to both arguements as to how the game should be played, and I see the need to omit neither, so both will be availible.

just out of curiosity, is the rsbot gonna have a feature that automatically implies clauses and bans? (like sleep clause and OHKO ban?)

[Gligar_Man]

true it only does 71.25bp BUT TO BOTH, tats 2x hidden power, even if its only superaffective vs. 1 or average on both, thats still not bad, allowing you to keep both poekmon on constant guard while widdling away at them w/someone else, hydro pump will become more popular IMO though

[Kyl3]

Does that mean we can't have something with Lock-On and Fissure/Sheer Cold?

[DelusionsOfEuphoria]

Waterfall may be a viable option for 2 on 2s. It's basically just Surf, except it hits only one opponent, and is just a hair below it in power. That's the option for Accuracy freaks. For power freaks, yeah, Hydro Pump is the way to go. Myself, will probably go with waterfall, or stick with surf.

[Deviou$]

Anyone in their right mind would choose Hydro Pump over Waterfall....on average, you get a good 16 more base power, I think (isn't Waterfall 80 power?).

Surf would suck in 2 v. 2. You should either aim for one person or use an attack like Earthquake (of course, your partner needs to levitate or fly for that to work well) that nabs both opponents, without power decrease. 71 base damage is pathetic. It could knock off, what, about 30% health on a super-effective hit? I wouldn't stand for anything under 90 without STAB, unless it had a great side effect. I don't think Surf is a viable option.

[DelusionsOfEuphoria]

Originally posted by Deviou$
Anyone in their right mind would choose Hydro Pump over Waterfall....on average, you get a good 16 more base power, I think (isn't Waterfall 80 power?).

Yeah, Waterfall is 80 power. and you do realize that Hydro Pump has one of the worst accuracies in the game? You can come up with all these "6 out of every 8" hit type of average equations or whatever, but that's worthless. It's all luck once you get as low an accuracy as Hydro Pump. Waterfall is alot more solid. Unless theres been DTing, or the rare accuracy lowering, you will hit. Hydro Pump is more powerful, yes, obviously, but I have TERRIBLE luck, so Waterfall is my weapon of choice.

[Deviou$]

Unless Hydro Pump has been changed, it's still 80%, isn't it? I just checked at Uiru's database's GSC section, and it says 80%...

Anyway, Hydro Pump is so much more powerful than Waterfall that it seems to be the winner by far. Its accuracy is mediocre, but it will hit many more times than not.

[DelusionsOfEuphoria]

Yes, Hydro Pump is still 80%. But as I said, anything with an accuracy below 85% is fairly unreliable. Sometimes it hits. Sometimes not. I'd be all well and good with the atrocious accuracy, if it wasn't such a low PP move. That's the real downside to it.

[Marl]

It's kinda sad that surf's going out of play in a lot of respects... I remember always having it as the only HM worthy of my team Now I use water pulse. 60 damage plus possible confusion... how could I refuse? It works for moi anywho.

[Fanha]

Originally posted by Kari & Mewtwo
just out of curiosity, is the rsbot gonna have a feature that automatically implies clauses and bans? (like sleep clause and OHKO ban?)

No way.

[ralts_mudkip]

Surf's damige is 1/2 in 2 vs. 2 cause it hits both enemies!?! Logicaly that doesn't make any sense.

[Gligar_Man]

Originally posted by ralts_mudkip
Surf's damige is 1/2 in 2 vs. 2 cause it hits both enemies!?! Logicaly that doesn't make any sense.

actually it makes perfect sence... anyways... personally im gonna be using both... both have vastly different uses now... and i dont think water pulse is gonna be so huge IMO, some might use it for a while

[MetalScyther]

Originally posted by Marl
It's kinda sad that surf's going out of play in a lot of respects... I remember always having it as the only HM worthy of my team Now I use water pulse. 60 damage plus possible confusion... how could I refuse? It works for moi anywho.

Haha. Water pulse sucks. If it has STAB it only does a bit more then Surf in 2vs2 battles, and water pulse would only hit one opponent. Also the confuse chance is only 20% meaning it won't happen much.

[Powarun]

Well even halved damage is better than Water Pulse. Water fall meh, Seakings long ago specail attack. Well don't forget your partner maybe it could be an electric type wit Raindance and Thunder. Maybe Lanturn

[ralts_mudkip]

Originally posted by Gligar_Man
actually it makes perfect sence...

Okay, here how i was thinking:

~=Section of wave

+=pokemon

_=bare space

1 vs. 1
~~~
_+_

one section of wave hits one pokemon, other sections sweep past.

2 vs. 2
~~~~~
_+__+_

one section of wave hits one PKMN, one section of wave hits the other, rest sweep past.

But your speaking as if one half of a section hits one pokemon... etc. etc. that just does not seem right.

[Darkanine]

its a wave. Do you know how big a wave is?

Why doesn't it hit your teammate like explode and Equake?
Because its called surf, your poges ride the wave as it passes. the others dont. Thus it smacks them.

Its split because if they made it as strong as the 1v1 surf, it would be too powerful.

Remember, a wave is very long and can smash up alot of stuff.

[ralts_mudkip]

oh... I always thoght of surf being like a huge wave of water crashing down on the enemy. but if the user just produces a wave, rides it, and then slaps the enemy...

[Carbonite4]

Actually, surf may not be on its way out...check this out.

2v2

Surf...about 71 damage, I am told.

Now, let's say it's my Kyogre and a Manetric, vs. a Charizard and a Rhydon. (bare with me)

Because of Kyogre's Drizzle, you'll have 1.5 x damage. Plus the 1.5 STAB damage.

Surf hits both Pokemon, doing 2x damage to Rhydon.

2(1.5 x 70) x 2.0= 420. Rhydon must have more than 420 HP to survive. (NOTE: 1.5x70 is for STAB, plus 1.5 x 70 for Raining, or 2(1.5x70) times 2 for super-effective.)

Rhydon is, therefore, KO.

Now, for Charizard.

2(1.5x70) = 210. Okay, so he is not knocked out. He probably has about 100 HP left.

Here comes the killer.

Since it is Raining, Manetric's Thunder has 100% accuracy. Thunder knocks out Charizard.

The only way Charizard would live is if Rhydon were alive. In that case, Thunder would hit Rhydon (his electric-rod ability or something like that). But, since Kyogre is faster than Manetric (I think), Rhydon is gone.

Anyway, my point is that Surf has not faded away, yet. I know that the above scenario is highly unlikely, but it's still a very good example of how the "almost done for" attack could be pulled off to becoming a bxtch of an attack.

[Mr.E]

Manectric is a full 30 points quicker than Kyogre, plus we're talking about an 00ber and an unobtainable anyway. ;/

[Gligar_Man]

-and if only the dmg equasion were that easy... -_-

[Cyber Dragon]

I still think Surf is good because of the plain fact that you hit both opponents. Even with around 70 base dmg, you hit both pokemon. Over the course of more turns, it will help, IMO.

Surfing on one turn, hitting both foes, saves another turn for a single-target move, which only hits one foe... This is what I think surf is good for.

BTW, are all 'hit both opponents' moves' damage halved? Muddy Water is EXACTLY like surf, but with less accuracy, and a chance to reduce accuracy... other moves include Blizzard, Powder Snow, Razor Leaf, Air Cutter... or maybe only the more powerful ones are halved.

[Fanha]

Ok, for the sake of not confusing yourselves, stop saying it's 70 base damage. It's not. It's 45. 71.25 was the figure after STAB, but for the sake of comparing, use the 45 figure. That way you can stop delluding yourselves that it's somehow decent base damage.

[Cyber Dragon]

Wow, that's like, water-gun type damage.

[Little_Pikachu]

Why so optimistic about 2v2s, Fanha? Weren't they a hideous flop on the GSBot? They were popular for about two weeks, and then no one ever played one again.

I'd recommend Waterfall over Hydro Pump, in most cases... Does anyone realize just how fast Hydro Pump's pp give out if your opponent has a Dusclops or the like on his or her team? Pressure is not exactly a rare characteristic, especially if you're allowed to use unobtainables.

[Mr.E]

Pressure is not exactly a rare characteristic... if you're allowed to use unobtainables.

[Gligar_Man]

47.5 not 45... both are pretty horrible anyways for unSTABd id agree w/mystery on waterfall... or octazooka/crabhammer... but i cant recall there pp... and 2v2 on the bot was alot longer and required 4 people... and etc. this way you control all the action, shorter more precise, mistakes cost logically 2x as much, etc. its fun,