Mod to Member ratio... (Current Discussion: Forum Specific Images)

[Roy Karrde]

Finally, I find it peculiar how nobody has addressed the main point in my earlier post: that promotions are used as temptation to keep the better members from leaving. It's all fine and dandy to nitpick other certain elements of my posts, but try to see it in its entirety, and you'll see what a solid argument I have against moderator numbers.

And yes, I agree with the idea of a talk-shit forum. ^_^;

Just curious but which mods have been promoted to keep them from leaving the forums? I can't speak for others but I pretty much know that Crystal, Weasel, and myself were not considering leaving the forum when we were modded. In fact we have lost one of our favorite members, Bulbasaur4, to another forum and she was a mod. And in the last 4 years, where I have participated in numerous mod elections in the RPG Forum, and elections for low post forums, I have never heard "We need to promote this person or they will leave". So really I am getting sick of the innuendo, saying "Promotions are being used to keep members from leaving" is very very vague.

[RedStarWarrior]

And in the last 4 years, where I have participated in numerous mod elections in the RPG Forum, and elections for low post forums, I have never heard "We need to promote this person or they will leave". So really I am getting sick of the innuendo, saying "Promotions are being used to keep members from leaving" is very very vague.

I, for instance, was modded (the most recent time) because I wouldn't go away.

[abunaidesu]

I, for instance, was modded (the most recent time) because I wouldn't go away.

[mr_pikachu]

Angel Blossom, since you have asked that your posts be considered in their entirety, I will adhere to your wishes, once and once only, and respond to the arguments made throughout your entire post. I hope this clarification helps.

This goes right to the heart of my earlier post: you don't "NEED" to be a moderator to get involved in discussions on how to increase activity. If the real discussion about this is being kept to the moderator forum, then I don't understand why.

Yes, because we spend all our time trying to keep "regular members" from becoming involved in the promotion of TPM. We pride ourselves on controlling everything! >_>

If a discussion is taking place amongst the mods, that's usually just because we're the ones who ponder possible improvements and start talking about them -- often, no one else bothers. We chat about it for a bit and, quite frequently, follow that by making a public post about it. It's not as though there's some kind of power play or information hoarding, as you appear to be suggesting. It's just that others rarely bother to make any suggestions. Outside of the Website Revival Project -- again, started by the moderators and willfully opened to everyone -- how many posts in The Binary District have been suggestions for improving TPM? Answer: There hasn't been a single one this year.

Finally, to be clear, we do value member suggestions. For instance, a month or so ago, kiyone sent me a PM suggesting that we change the domain name of TPM's main site, as a .tk domain looked pretty lousy. Lo and behold, we are now located at http://www.thepokemasters.net. Thank you, kiyone.

You make it sound as if the rules are so overly complex and vastly different in each forum that it's impossible to learn them all. If that's the case, maybe it's the rules that need changing. The only forum you mentioned that does have very complex rules (and for good reason) is ASB; in this case, I wouldn't expect a supermod to become acquainted with the intricacies of ASB policies, so a normal moderator would be best.

I still don't see how my idea is stupid though. You can easily train somebody up to handle affairs in Fanfic and Video Games in addition to Misc; I'm sure the rules in those forums are not overly complex. Some of the bigger and better forums out there put their supermods to excellent use, which eliminates most of the need to appoint normal mods to each and every forum. The current supermods on TPM, I believe, are not doing anywhere near enough.

Say what you will about certain members of the staff, such as the two remaining supermods. (Notice how no one has been promoted to fill Gabi's old spot? It's because we don't make unnecessary promotions, and that doesn't seem necessary right now.) Honestly, I'd rather hear criticisms about particular individuals than sweeping generalizations about all members of the staff.

Most of this portion, however, ignores what I and others have already said. To repeat myself, many in this thread seem to believe that moderation consists entirely of enforcing rules. If that were the case, sure, we wouldn't need many mods. In reality, enforcement is the smallest part of our jobs.

Most of our responsibilities involve promoting activities on the forums, whether through creating events and activities (the Fanfic Awards, Hall of Fame, E-zine, Writing Sprints, Writing Contests, etc.), facilitating member-run events and activities (such as the mid-term Fanfic Awards that HL offered to run awhile back as well as the Fanfic Trivia Game, whose creator was not a moderator at the time), taking part in forum-wide projects (see the aforementioned website revival, whose efforts encompass people from all over TPM), and generally setting a good example for activity by being active ourselves. Each one of those tasks takes far more time and effort than enforcement. Therefore, it makes no sense to say that we only have so many moderators merely because the rules are so complex.

Finally, I find it peculiar how nobody has addressed the main point in my earlier post: that promotions are used as temptation to keep the better members from leaving. It's all fine and dandy to nitpick other certain elements of my posts, but try to see it in its entirety, and you'll see what a solid argument I have against moderator numbers.

I won't profess to know what the admins are thinking, so I can't conclusively argue against the purported temptation. I will say, however, that it doesn't seem to make sense. If a member was somehow "better" than others, I don't think they'd be at much risk to leave. Why would an active member suddenly abandon the forums forever? It doesn't happen very often, and it certainly wouldn't be easy to predict which members were "at-risk" for vanishing under such circumstances.

The members who are generally at risk of leaving fall into one of two categories: 1) those who are stagnant in terms of activity, rarely posting and never really engaging in anything on the forums, or 2) flamers and trolls who don't care about the forums in the first place. I'd challenge anyone here to find an example where someone was modded -- outside of an April Fool's Day joke -- because they were either inactive or flaming trolls.

Again, I will concede that I can't fully refute this, as I'm speaking about someone else's reasoning. To me, though, that doesn't even seem feasible. Based on what everyone here has observed in terms of promotions, your theory simply doesn't seem to match the data.

And yes, I agree with the idea of a talk-shit forum. ^_^;

Looks like Heald's already excited about this. Serious suggestions for improvement = good!



I have done what I promised and responded to every claim in your post. Feel free to respond, whether with counterarguments or personal attacks. Just don't expect a response from me. Like others have indicated, I, too, have a life outside of TPM, and I need to do a lot of grading tonight. There's simply no free time for me to engage in further squabbling in the near future.

[RedStarWarrior]

You are just jealous. I like your new avatar, btw.

Anyway, in regards to the 'talk-shit forum' (which it will not be called), discussion has been brought up many times for adding such. Each time it was decided against for the moment, but I've always been a supporter of adding a SPAM forum.

[Telume]

Would the SPAM forum have post count disabled though? (Most sites have it set up that way.) I'm not all to familiar on whether vBulletin allows this to be done or not.

[RedStarWarrior]

Would the SPAM forum have post count disabled though? (Most sites have it set up that way.) I'm not all to familiar on whether vBulletin allows this to be done or not.

Yes and yes.

[Houndoom_Lover]

Why the heck won't it be called shit-talk, Red! Why NOT?! :0 I want a poll to be held! Spam vs Shit-Talk!

[Telume]

'cause we're still a pokemon site? we're supposed to be at least somewhat wholesome?

[Clark]

Why the heck won't it be called shit-talk, Red! Why NOT?! :0 I want a poll to be held! Spam vs Shit-Talk!

Because our user base is "family" oriented. As a pokemon forum, we focus on all age groups.

[shazza]

Okay, I'm going to cease trolling now and post a legitimate reply.

I really don't give a fuck about how many mods there are, quite frankly. It isn't hurting the forum having them there, but in saying that, getting rid of a few won't really hurt the forum either. I feel that a SuperMod's duties should adhere to the title that is given: and that is first and foremost to be moderating ALL the forums, therefore that for every moderator total, you need to add the fact there are two SuperMod's. If this is not their duty, then the position is pointless and should be rid of. You could say that the moderators in the really inactive forums – Classic Generation, Other Pokémon Games, Other Anime and Manga – can use a cut as there are also the SuperMod’s to take care of, however this is in theory; in reality I don’t really feel the vital need for the SuperMod’s, to be honest. But there are some proficient moderators, and to get rid of them just to keep the numbers low, when the current numbers isn’t really making anyone lose sleep, would be unfair.

Some are saying that the goal should be to boost membership. This is ideal, but this is also 2009 and Web 2.0: internet users stick to the most popular, recognised sites and there isn’t as many competing sites as there were once were. If you’re doing a search, you go Google; if you want information about random shit, it’s Wikipedia; if you want to stalk, it’s usually Facebook; and if you want information about Pokémon or to discuss it, it’s Serebii.net.

In regards to the idea about a SPAM forum: kiyone, myself and others have advocated such an idea for years, along with the idea of the postcount being disabled. But we were always regarded as trolls trying to disrupt the status quo and destroy the quality of TPM. In 2004, Chris set up a secret forum much like Something Awful, where a SPAM forum existed for a fair few weeks, and consisted of quality members such as myself – I don’t know why the fuck Zak was partaking in it though, I think he found out and blackmailed Chris to let him in otherwise he’ll tell Susie. In the end, Susie did find out and felt the need to delete it, despite the fact it was not hurting anybody, only creating light-hearted fun and not doing anything for “postcount++”.

But, yeah, I don’t give a fuck about the number of mods.

On a sidenote, I like how Microsoft Word 2007 corrects Pokemon as Pokémon. ^_^

[DarkestLight]

Some of you guys are making it sound as if the administrators use moderator promotions as a tool to keep the better members from leaving (I'm looking at you, mr_pikachu). That may or may not be true, but I'm inclined to believe it is, at least in part. You'll find that on many smaller free forums people usually mass promote their friends to moderator positions. Why? As an incentive to remain active and participate. That's why I believe there are so many moderators here; it has nothing to do with "needing" 20-30 mods as TPM can easily survive with 3-4 active super moderators and 1-2 administrators.

O.o I'm not being mean to any of the mod staff, but I honestly wasn't all super chummy chummy with any of the staff when I was modded, let alone think that they considered me their friend. They just prolly saw me and was like SLAVEGOOD WORKER!

I recognized a few names here and there, but yeah, no real connection. But I'm just speaking for me, and I'm sure Chris and Weasie will prolly rape me now for saying such words. :O

Now Houndy, the hell are my cookies for posting in this topic again. You know I hate SRS BSNS!

[Master Rudy]

Furthermore, this isn't like other forums where the modding staff can be considered a staff, where full-time active participation is a requirement. Here, mods are just members who can be trusted with responsibility. Mods here aren't required to be online any more than once a week, and even then if one is inactive for longer, it isn't a big deal. At other forums, even a few days of inactivity could warrant a demodding. That's because we actually have lives, work, school, outside interests.

Glad to see that's not really an issue for you guys anymore. Back in the day the whole "let us know if your going to be gone for more than ten days" crap was just that.....crap.

Give us a talk-shit forum.

A spam forum of some sort could be potentially bad. Read below......

On that token, though, I wouldn't be opposed to a talk-shit forum, although I would have two provisos:

1) Posts don't contribute towards post count.
2) Forced Anonymity. It's hard to flame someone if you don't know who you're flaming.

1-Does anyone even care about post count anymore? It's not like you become a god if you have more than X number of posts :sweatdrop:

2-Now I don't know if it's possible to make an anonymous post on a paticular forum. However if it is and it was active then this is inviting trouble. First off you'd have some of the more hot tempered and idiotic members speaking out about every single problem, mod, ect on a daily basis.

Plus assume it was possible for user names/sigs to be hidden, text formatting to be turned off, ect. Even if there was nothing to quickly point out who was saying something you guys need to remember that some members have a certain way of talking/typing that could give away who it is. For example a few of us use "^_^ and ^_^()" as emoticon. Plus there are a few people here that you could possibly pick out based on common spelling errors/regional spellings, ect. Going on those things it may not be much secret to who is posting what and that could lead to possible flaming problems. At worst it could also possibly lead to someone attempting to impersonate another member in the hopes that they may get them into trouble. Even if the mods are able to see who is posting what it wouldn't matter. If it erupted into an all out flame war the damage would be done. Unwarrented blame would be dished out, fingers pointed, trust broken, ect.

Finally to me a spam forum with little or no rules always appeared to be the mark of a childish/immature forum. If your trying to bring new members to the board/site then I think adding one would be the last thing you'd want to do.

I agree with the idea of a talk-shit forum. ^_^;

Why am I not surprised......

I have never heard "We need to promote this person or they will leave". So really I am getting sick of the innuendo, saying "Promotions are being used to keep members from leaving" is very very vague.

I've heard it a few times myself here and there. Why the rumor keeps spreading around I'll never know. Seriously guys if your going to make those kinds of claims then back them up with proof ~_~()

[shazza]

Plus assume it was possible for user names/sigs to be hidden, text formatting to be turned off, ect. Even if there was nothing to quickly point out who was saying something you guys need to remember that some members have a certain way of talking/typing that could give away who it is. For example a few of us use "^_^ and ^_^()" as emoticon. Plus there are a few people here that you could possibly pick out based on common spelling errors/regional spellings, ect. Going on those things it may not be much secret to who is posting what and that could lead to possible flaming problems. At worst it could also possibly lead to someone attempting to impersonate another member in the hopes that they may get them into trouble. Even if the mods are able to see who is posting what it wouldn't matter. If it erupted into an all out flame war the damage would be done. Unwarrented blame would be dished out, fingers pointed, trust broken, ect.

I agree that being anonymous is stupid, but not because of your reasons, in fact what you have argued actually sounds potentially enjoyable, but because it's just retarded. It destroys the fun of a SPAM forum with the members you know (and love). I think if it was anonymous, people are intelligent enough to somewhat reword it so it doesn't sound like them.

Perhaps anonymoity can be an optional thing - if vBB even allows it - and we can have a topic like "GUESS WHO THE POSTER IS ABOVE" and shit. Sounds good, dude.

Finally to me a spam forum with little or no rules always appeared to be the mark of a childish/immature forum. If your trying to bring new members to the board/site then I think adding one would be the last thing you'd want to do.

Nah man, treating a Pokemon forum (although the rules and strictness have lessened somewhat considerably in the past couple of years) like a concentration camp is what would most deter members. Most of the popular forums have a SPAM/rule-free forum where they can let loose on whatever they feel like; it promotes activity, interaction and laughter.

Why am I not surprised......

What do you mean by that? Are you insinuating that since, in your view, the idea is bad, that Angel Blossom is a piece of shit?

For shame, Rudy.

[Houndoom_Lover]

Shazza, that was a beautiful post. Seriously :3

And ya'll just know Shit-talking would win over Spam. But either way, can we pleeease have one?

Ooooooh, Darkest Light! I have Oatmeal and Chocolate Chip, if you wait a little while, the snicker doodles will be ready -^w^-

I don't care how we set up the Spam forum, just as long as we do. You have no idea how much I need to post random stuff. NO IDEA!!!!! *foaming at the mouth* As you can tell, all seriousness in me lasted for about one day for an hour. Must've been a full moon. X3

But Shazza speaks truths, all the most popular forums have Spam threads. Use not having one will look cold and unfriendly to people coming from them. We basically gotta kidnap members from other Pokemon places.

I got the white van, someone bring rope.

[Angel Blossom]

I've heard it a few times myself here and there. Why the rumor keeps spreading around I'll never know. Seriously guys if your going to make those kinds of claims then back them up with proof ~_~()

What I stated was a belief, not a rumor. Major difference. You don't hear atheists calling God a "rumor", do you? This is no different - it's my best explanation for why I believe there are so many moderators. And just like God, my claim is not susceptible to being proven (that is, unless we demod everybody to see what happens), but that doesn't mean my beliefs are stupid, does it?

mr_pikachu, I don't have time at the moment to address your post, but I will soon enough, rest assured. ^_^

[PNT510]

One of the nice things I've noticed about boards that have SPAM forums is it helps keep flaming in normal topics to a minimum. When two people get pissed they can just move the fight over to the SPAM section and not worry about derailing a topic.

[Houndoom_Lover]

Blady calls God a vicious rumor, so yeah. What now! HUh!? HUH!? Shit, I like your avatar!

Don't mix up religion and Pokemon sites, or I'll get SuperCatholic on you :0

Though I still think demodding to test run would be a good idea in the future just for kicks and giggles I guess, EVERYone would be crazy. Crazy-sause. In thoery, the Supermods would do it if all the mods would die. But thoeries are crap.

What do they do, by the by. I know what they do, but like, you know. Exactly.

What were we talking about? Spam Thread.

Sorry, writing a novel :0 Do stuff

[RedStarWarrior]

What I stated was a belief, not a rumor. Major difference. You don't hear atheists calling God a "rumor", do you? This is no different - it's my best explanation for why I believe there are so many moderators. And just like God, my claim is not susceptible to being proven (that is, unless we demod everybody to see what happens), but that doesn't mean my beliefs are stupid, does it?

mr_pikachu, I don't have time at the moment to address your post, but I will soon enough, rest assured. ^_^

You are expressing beliefs about something tangible. If you want your claims to be taken seriously, then the burden of proof lies with you.

[Zak]

In regards to the spam/talk shit forum, I'm not entirely against it, it could work if executed properly, but it still wouldn't be entirely without limitations. Postcounts could be disabled, but really, if you think about it, no one here really cares about postcount much anymore so why bother?

There's one other board I frequent (which I won't name) which is a vB, like TPM, albeit not a Pokemon board, but a gaming board with a similar user-base as TPM. The average level of intelligence is the same these days (as in, not SPPf or 4chan, a lot of the quality members of this place remind me of posters like shazza or Heald or Chris), and there are posts dating back to 2002 in the archive, and it's kind of become a close knit community full of memes and such, much like the way TPM is (you know how TPM has had various memes over the years, won't even deny that).

Except, the one difference is, after all those years, that board is still lively and active and gets new posts when you refresh every five minutes. I know TPM used to be that way, and there's no denying it's not like that now.

Now, I only registered at that place in 2006 so it's not like I know how strictness used to be back in their days, but they kind of do have a spam forum. Well, they have a forum called "General Discussion" which is pretty much Misc, with rules 10 time more lax. It's like a combination of your idea and Misc, like, there are intelligent discussions there, and there are a lot of joke threads and a lot of parody threads and a lot of replies to threads which would be considered taboo here. After reading all the posts here about this idea, it seems the forum I'm thinking of is a combination of Misc and what you envision.

And the best part is that the board is still holding strong, with quality posts and quality members everywhere, including the "General Discussion" forum.

Of course, like I said, there are limitations, like if someone posts something just for the sake of being retarded, without the least bit of humor, it would get deleted. Failed humor is okay, as long as that was the intention, rather than to purely be annoying. Of course, that gets everyone pointing and laughing at your failure. There are occasions where someone makes a retarded post, but then the people replying end up turning it into something.

Also regarding limitations, usually what gets people banned isn't spamming, but simply being a complete asshole and going out of your way to harass people. Sure, a little trolling here and there wont get you banned, it's just not a good idea to push it to the limits.
Also, Chris's forum that shazza was talking about (btw shaz, not sure if you were joking about me but Chris voluntarily told me about it on aim and immediately let me in, in case you're wondering) is comparable to that, sure there was a lot of having fun with memes there and fooling around, but at the same time it had excessive trolling and over-the-top garbage.
But most of the trolling here (not all) comes from hating how strict this board is, so a lot of it would stop if TPM had that, eh?

Also I hate to sound like a copycat, but I think if the idea makes it, instead of being a seperate forum, it should just be combined with Misc. Like, allow parody/joke threads and allow threads to be derailed off topic a little. I mean, as long as people are enjoying or making something out of whatever the thread turned into, no one's really spamming or being a jerk, and if someone, usually the original poster, wants to get it back on topic, they could easily do so, and allow spam if it's funny.
See, I just think that if this forum was seperate from Misc, it could go over the top in what people would go out of their way to do, like post complete garbage and run amok. Because, face it, the kind of funny/enjoyable "spam" that you hate seeing get shot down here is also Miscellaneous.

I guess I'd be down for the idea with the above standards if it ever gets off the ground.

[RedStarWarrior]

I'd rather it be a subforum of Misc.

[Houndoom_Lover]

I love discissions- there isn't a emocon strong ebnough to show you my joy X3 I don't know about merging misc into spam. I think I'd like to keep them seperate, but that sure does give the spam thread some proofies.

[RedStarWarrior]

I love discissions- there isn't a emocon strong ebnough to show you my joy X3 I don't know about merging misc into spam. I think I'd like to keep them seperate, but that sure does give the spam thread some proofies.

We discuss stuff like this all the time...

Also, you need to recheck that mod/member ratio right now. I find the ratio to be a lot different when you normally aren't on. *shrugs*

[Houndoom_Lover]

I meant overall. The ratio to moderators and active members was off. Normally, there should be twice as normal members for a mod. Just, you know, based on really active forums and all. We should model are selfs and stuff.

Nu-uh :0 I never do anyway. Important threads and stuffage

[shazza]

(btw shaz, not sure if you were joking about me but Chris voluntarily told me about it on aim and immediately let me in, in case you're wondering)

I wasn't completely serious, but that was my recollection of things!

I think postcoutns should be disabled and restrictions on what to post should be kept to a minimum (no porn etc), but double posting and all that shouldn't be banned, and that's why I think postcounts should be disabled.

Also, the names 'SPAM forum' and 'talk shit forum' are terrible. It needs to be something witty, to clarify it as some crazy place that is separated from the usual rules and regulations of TPM. I think calling it "Mt. Moon" would be awesome: it relates to pokemanz, lots of crazy shit happens at Mt. Moon, full moons make you go crazy and it makes it sound like it is a whole different area from TPM. In fact, Mt. Moon is the best name for it ever.

And it shouldn't be a sub-forum of Misc; that's retarded. It should be the last forum list, even below the archives.

I just think the only things that should be banned from it is pointless crap like "sdfsgfdgdgfdsgdfgsdgdsg" and porn. But I should be allowed to post a thread that is like 'ATTN: ZAK!' and in the post it's like "not really, nobody wants your attention lolol" to be allowed.

At least give it a try, anyway. If run properly, it would be a good addition.

And it should have its own colour scheme like previously, to further show that it is a bit different to the rest of TPM. Design it like Mt. Moon, however you do that.

Just let it be the socialist forum of the people, with perhaps two moderators who are expertees in this kind of field. It's like when network executives tamper with a writers new sitcom, and fuck it all up, but in the end you just gotta give the writer all the executive power because they know what the people want.

[Master Rudy]

I wasn't completely serious, but that was my recollection of things!

I think postcoutns should be disabled and restrictions on what to post should be kept to a minimum (no porn etc), but double posting and all that shouldn't be banned, and that's why I think postcounts should be disabled.

Also, the names 'SPAM forum' and 'talk shit forum' are terrible. It needs to be something witty, to clarify it as some crazy place that is separated from the usual rules and regulations of TPM. I think calling it "Mt. Moon" would be awesome: it relates to pokemanz, lots of crazy shit happens at Mt. Moon, full moons make you go crazy and it makes it sound like it is a whole different area from TPM. In fact, Mt. Moon is the best name for it ever.

And it shouldn't be a sub-forum of Misc; that's retarded. It should be the last forum list, even below the archives.

I just think the only things that should be banned from it is pointless crap like "sdfsgfdgdgfdsgdfgsdgdsg" and porn. But I should be allowed to post a thread that is like 'ATTN: ZAK!' and in the post it's like "not really, nobody wants your attention lolol" to be allowed.

At least give it a try, anyway. If run properly, it would be a good addition.

And it should have its own colour scheme like previously, to further show that it is a bit different to the rest of TPM. Design it like Mt. Moon, however you do that.

Just let it be the socialist forum of the people, with perhaps two moderators who are expertees in this kind of field. It's like when network executives tamper with a writers new sitcom, and fuck it all up, but in the end you just gotta give the writer all the executive power because they know what the people want.

Well when you put it that way I guess in the end it couldn't really hurt things. Now I'm no rules Nazi but my main concern is not enough regulation and rules in effect. It's got to have something to set it apart while at the same time not be a total burden and problem to the board. Too many rules and it's just another miscellaneous forum. Too few and it potentially turns into a spamtastic mess like some of the more notorious boards on GameFAQs and 4Chan.

As for mods on a random ass board with potentially controversial topics I saw they got to be two people with opposing viewpoints. Why not Blade and Roy? That's about as opposite as you can get I think!

*starts playing the theme music to The Odd Couple* XD

[Crazy Elf Boy]

Another quick bit of logic here since it seems my last one was ignored. There are currently 21 Moderators over 24 forums, 2 Super Moderators and 4 Admins making a staff list of 27. By my count we have around 49 active posting non modded members on this forum, since 2 of the admins aren't very active at all it brings us around Houndoom_Lovers magic number of 2 members to 1 mod. As for why there are so many mods needed let me refer you to two old adages.
1: Don't put all your eggs in one basket
2: Many hands make light work

Appointing a few mods to look over the entire forum is much like giving them full time jobs to look over a website which they may or may not want. But with more mods the load is lighter on the individual person therefor they are also more likely to do a better more thorough job rather then just rush it. Also people tend to go away on vacation sometimes or just have computer problems in general and with your method rather then 1 possibly 2 forums which also have other mods being unmodded for a brief period of time. A few forums would go completely unchecked for the time that the mod is away for.

[Master Rudy]

Appointing a few mods to look over the entire forum is much like giving them full time jobs to look over a website which they may or may not want. But with more mods the load is lighter on the individual person therefor they are also more likely to do a better more thorough job rather then just rush it. Also people tend to go away on vacation sometimes or just have computer problems in general and with your method rather then 1 possibly 2 forums which also have other mods being unmodded for a brief period of time. A few forums would go completely unchecked for the time that the mod is away for.

This right here is what the people who are still making the arguement for less mods seem to fail to take into account. Even with the arguement that the Super Mods can take on the extra workload it's silly to have less. Do you really think the SM's want to spend nearly every last minute on the forums checking over each and every topic on every single board? At that point TPM becomes a job and it's no longer fun to be here. The SM's exist as backup in the event that a problem occurs and there isn't a mod online in that paticular forum to take care of it. It shouldn't have to be their job to take on an increased workload accross the entire board.

[Blademaster]

Who's talking about an extra workload? Are we assumed to be too damn stupid to, when we see a problem, waltz on over to whatever Mod is online at the moment and PM them to say "Hey, shit's going down in Misc.. Go fix it."? It's not like we need Mods babysitting us 24/7. We CAN fend for ourselves in the event that - gasp - a fight in Misc. breaks out or spambot #927 pops in for a visit and we have to wait an hour for DragoKnight or Andrew to get online.

[Heald]

There is a lot more work than deleting or responding to posts or having to intervene in threads that have reached boiling point or banning a spambot promising you better performance in the bedroom. My day-to-day public moderation activities constitute only a small part of my responsibilities. Otherwise, I'm often contacted on AIM, or people often send me PMs (I'm forever having to delete items from my inbox and sent items, lest it becomes full and I cannot receive PMs) and I have to respond to these. Furthermore, I have to work with my fellow Misc Mods as well as the Supermods and Admins with issues such as member problems, rules revisions, proposed changes, infractions etc. Now consider the fact that this workload is divided across 3 mods. If I was the sole person in charge of this, I'd never get through all of it efficiently or effectively, and the quality of the forum would deteriorate because of it.

Having 3 mods also makes things far more democratic and allows decisions to be thought through and constructively made. At any given time, if one of the 3 Misc mods wants to make a change or an important decision, instead of just implementing it without giving thought to the consequences, we discuss it and whether or not it is necessary or if it can be amended. In rare cases, we have to make spot decisions without this discussion, but then we discuss it afterwards. Either way, better to have 3 decision-makers making informed choices rather than one dictator forcing his whim on you all.

As for whether you can be trusted to fend for yourselves...well, if recent history has shown us anything, if a fight or a flame war does kick off, more often than not members dive in all guns ablazing rather than trying to cool the situation, usually with the mentality 'Better get as many punches in before the mods break up the fight', and even when a mod has stepped in and told you to stop, some people continue, and hence infractions have to be handed out. Having a mod online there and then and having to wait 4 or 5 hours for a mod to show up can be the difference between a few deleted posts and the thread being prevented from being derailed, and the thread having to be shut down and infractions handed out because people didn't know when to shut up. I'm not deliberately trying to patronise you all, but lets face it, ever since Misc's inception it has always been a volatile storm.

[Master Rudy]

Never said folks were too stupid to speak up Blade. However think about it. What if we did go ahead with ditching mods since they "aren't needed" and we have too many of them? Let's say something major goes down in miscellaneous that requires instant attention from a staff member. Just one minor problem......due to getting rid of the ones that weren't needed there is not a single, mod, SM or admin online and at best it may be several hours before someone does log in. At worse what if the sole miscellaneous mod doesn't log in that day and for whatever various reasons they may have none of the supers log in either?

Plus despite popular belief you'd be surprised at how often people don't speak up on matters that require mods. Granted you'll always have your members that will say something. TPM is a good example of a website where the active members are smart/reasonable enough to say something in the event something gets out of hand. However I've been on boards where people won't say jack shit about a flame war. In those cases it solely falls upon the mod to do all the work. As another example let's say Member A has Viewpoint A and Member B has Viewpoint B. A is reasonable about it but B is just flat out being an asshole about it. A gets somewhat defensive which in turn fires B up more. A who is normally calm is clearly getting more angry as the posts go on and finally decides to contact a mod.......

.......until they come to think about the fact that if they let the matter drop five posts ago they wouldn't be in the middle of a flame war in the first place. On some of the more extreme/poorly run boards all parties involved get into trouble equally with no questions asked. All it takes is one such bad experience for a person to carry the mentality of "if I bring it up to a mod I'll get into trouble" from board to board. People who think along those lines when they get into a heated debate don't help the matter when they don't speak up about it.

Obviously some of you seem to be having trouble grasping how much work is actually involved. If you have never been a mod it's understandable. While it's easier on some boards than it is on others, it's still far from the cake walk that some people are making it out to be. Hell at one point Heald even said he'd goes nuts if he was the lone wolf in this paticular forum. If you guys are still having trouble understanding then give it a little bit of time. I'm sure one of the mods would be more than willing to try to explain it a bit more.

EDIT-Our good old Rage Lord happened to do it while I was typing my post....imagine that......

[RedStarWarrior]

I never wanted to call it the SPAM forum. I was merely describing what it was...

[shazza]

Mt. Moon can be a magical place.

[RedStarWarrior]

Mt. Moon can be a magical place.

I like that name. We'd still need a mod or two to get rid of the completely useless crap and protect against porn/gore, etc., but other than that, I don't think it needs any rules. I want it to be like the secret forum (Chris would be so proud!).

[Zak]

I still think it should be combined into Misc. If it's seperate, even as a subforum, things could get crazy.

Maybe rename all of Misc in the process to Mt. Moon or whatever you wanna call it. It'd be intelligent discussions with a bit of silliness here and there, that way it'll be more lively and not make us look like pompous strict humorless assholes (which supposedly a lot of you claim drives people away), but at the same time not look downright retarded. Maybe rename it to something weird and different every now any then. See, if all the silliness is combined into a single forum separated from the actual serious Misc discussion, it'd look more retarded than funny/enjoyable and eventually lose it's touch after about a month.

[RedStarWarrior]

I still think it should be combined into Misc. If it's seperate, even as a subforum, things could get crazy.

Maybe rename all of Misc in the process to Mt. Moon or whatever you wanna call it. It'd be intelligent discussions with a bit of silliness here and there, that way it'll be more lively and not make us look like pompous strict humorless assholes (which supposedly a lot of you claim drives people away), but at the same time not look downright retarded. Maybe rename it to something weird and different every now any then. See, if all the silliness is combined into a single forum separated from the actual serious Misc discussion, it'd look more retarded than funny/enjoyable and eventually lose it's touch after about a month.

No. Misc can be serious discussion about other things, like sports, religion, history, whatever. We need to have the fun time randomness separate.

[Zak]

No. Misc can be serious discussion about other things, like sports, religion, history, whatever. We need to have the fun time randomness separate.

Okay, you keep repeating saying "they should be seperate" "it should be a subforum" etc, but aside from the fact that I don't agree, I've yet to hear an argument from you as to why? Keep stating it over and over, but it won't really convince anyone until you say why it's be better that way. For instance, I clearly explained why it would be better to have them together.

[RedStarWarrior]

I consider the idea of serious discussion to be merit enough for them to be separate.

Or do you like, let's say, a thread about a deadly tsunami to be filled with posts along the lines of "Surf time!"???

[Houndoom_Lover]

I liked the idea of having it at the very bottom. :0

[RedStarWarrior]

I liked the idea of having it at the very bottom. :0

I'd like to have it be viewable by members only.