Mod to Member ratio... (Current Discussion: Forum Specific Images)

[Zak]

I consider the idea of serious discussion to be merit enough for them to be separate.

Or do you like, let's say, a thread about a deadly tsunami to be filled with posts along the lines of "Surf time!"???

Well, given what I was envisioning, sure it may have the potential for serious threads to be ripped apart. But, that's where we'd come in. Not all the time, though.
Like, say, a funny article about some celebrity doing something stupid, I wouldn't expect that to be stopped from getting ripped apart. Same with the picture thread, because, even if it may digress into crazy arguments, that won't exactly HURT the thread, because people would keep posting pictures. Though if it gets out of hand and someone PMs us saying that they feel they're being harassed here (which I said before shouldn't be tolerated), then they can PM us.
And I forget if I mentioned this before, I wouldn't expect most racist shit to be allowed, unless it's an obvious joke.

The way I'd imagined it, was if anyone is bothered by their thread being ripped apart, they can try and get them back on topic, and if that doesn't work, PM us. Like, if someone wants to post something that's a serious religion debate and doesn't want trolling, then we can keep an eye on that thread.

And about your tsunami example, while a lot of people on this board may be silly at times, I think most of us here are mature enough and not distasteful to shit up a thread about a deadly tsunami, or a dead celebrity (well, that's questionable), or a problem someone's going through, or a tragic incident or whatever. Those are the kind of threads we'd be keeping an eye on.

Also about the harassment issue, kind of like Pants (PNT) said above, if there's more lax then it would more likely keep the flaming and stuff to a minimum.

It may seem weird to you, but this system actually works quite well at this other place, and I'm sure it would work here as well, if my statement about the tastefulness/intelligence of the average members here is accurate.

[RedStarWarrior]

And I feel it would save us all (members and mods) a whole lot of problems if we just separated them. I don't want members to have to worry about which thread they can have fun in and which thread they have to be serious in. The tsunami was an extreme example where most people would expect you to be serious, but I don't want the members deciding one way or another (i.e. bitching if their thread becomes non-serious). If we have two forums, then members know what to expect when posting a thread in either.

[Zak]

And I feel it would save us all (members and mods) a whole lot of problems if we just separated them. I don't want members to have to worry about which thread they can have fun in and which thread they have to be serious in. The tsunami was an extreme example where most people would expect you to be serious, but I don't want the members deciding one way or another (i.e. bitching if their thread becomes non-serious). If we have two forums, then members know what to expect when posting a thread in either.

Common sense, Scott.

I think most people here have common sense enough to know the bounds of when not to fuck around, and won't really have to worry about that. But if someone posts a thread and is worried about it getting ripped apart, they can state in the original post "no joke replies, please", and we can get on it if people fuck it up.
It's also about knowing whether to expect it to be ripped apart, so if you think it might be and don't want it to, give a heads-up.

Not only would the "seperate spam forum" get boring and lose it's touch after a while and not seem funny anymore, but there are some already existing threads in Misc which I think could use a little more freedom than what we're enforcing in them. The picture thread, for instance. Like I said, as long as people aren't being harassed, no matter how much people digress into talking about something else, it's not really gonna hurt it because people will keep posting pictures and get commented on and the off-topic shenanigans will end on their own automatically.
Same with certain other Misc threads, but that's a worthy example.

[RedStarWarrior]

Common sense, Scott.

I think most people here have common sense enough to know the bounds of when not to fuck around, and won't really have to worry about that. But if someone posts a thread and is worried about it getting ripped apart, they can state in the original post "no joke replies, please", and we can get on it if people fuck it up.
It's also about knowing whether to expect it to be ripped apart, so if you think it might be and don't want it to, give a heads-up.

Not only would the "seperate spam forum" get boring and lose it's touch after a while and not seem funny anymore, but there are some already existing threads in Misc which I think could use a little more freedom than what we're enforcing in them. The picture thread, for instance. Like I said, as long as people aren't being harassed, no matter how much people digress into talking about something else, it's not really gonna hurt it because people will keep posting pictures and get commented on and the off-topic shenanigans will end on their own automatically.
Same with certain other Misc threads, but that's a worthy example.

People do not have common sense these days, Zak.

How about we have people label the spam threads instead? I agree that some of the existing threads in Misc could use some more freedom (the picture one was only enforced because no one was posting any damn pictures).

[Drago]

I know I'm late to the party (I always seem to take a couple days off right when an interesting topic emerges...), but I as a mod certainly appreciate having RSW and Heald on-board to help me out here... I don't claim to have all the answers, so sometimes being able to discuss what to do about a situation is necessary. Similarly, should I make a mistake, I would expect either of them to be able to say 'I don't agree with that one' and rectify it if necessary. Having more than one opinion stops my dictatorship from flourishing, you see.

So we're onto a spam forum now? I'm not opposed to it, but I'm mostly curious to see what then isn't considered misc. Material. The ctrl+V thread, for example?

[Zak]

People do not have common sense these days, Zak.

How about we have people label the spam threads instead? I agree that some of the existing threads in Misc could use some more freedom (the picture one was only enforced because no one was posting any damn pictures).

Again, people would have common sense to tell between the two. And I guess this is what it comes down to, you don't seem to agree but I think people on this board have enough common sense, this isn't SPPf. People on that other board I compared us to sure seemed to, and we're about on the same wavelength if not higher.

But, while we disagree on this, how about we wait and see what Kris (Angel Blossom) has to say about the matter since she's clearly the expert here.

[mr_pikachu]

In the meantime, it might be helpful to know what board you're talking about, Zak. I get the sense that many of us -- myself included -- are having a difficult time envisioning how a combined serious discussion/spam haven would work as you've suggested. Since it's hard to visualize, the opportunity to see it in action would probably help.

[Magmar]

*Rolls in way too late* Hi

Anyways, the mods really don't do much besides clean up spam because seriously, there's what, 40 active non-mods? Roughly? And how many mods, supermods and admins? It's not like work isn't getting done. When there is a problem, it gets taken care of pretty quickly. If mods really think they have some big job or are making some tragic sacrifice of their time and energy to take care of TPM of all things, they're quite mistaken. Supermods and admins, on the other hand, I can see.

But if you walk around stroking yourself over being a mod, just remember, you're a mod on a fucking Pokemon forum, and nobody is going to care except people that post here. In fact, 99% of anyone over the age of 8 will probably laugh at you. They also won't understand how awesome this place actually is and just how un-Pokemon-ish it really is these days, lol. I mean, I love it, but will I tell my friends that when I'm home sick with bronchitis I post on a Pokemon forum? Probably not, lol.

Edit: I remember when I was a mod and TPM was brand spanking new, and one time I closed a completely spam topic in the Misc forum when I was a General Discussion mod, because new members were all replying to it like OMFG THIS IS SPAM REMOVE IT PLEASE MODS and so I just locked it, and I got seriously reamed out over it. Seriously, people used to be REALLY uptight in these parts. It really makes you wonder why we spent our precious adolescence posting here and losing sleep over... TPM drama...

[Zak]

In the meantime, it might be helpful to know what board you're talking about, Zak. I get the sense that many of us -- myself included -- are having a difficult time envisioning how a combined serious discussion/spam haven would work as you've suggested. Since it's hard to visualize, the opportunity to see it in action would probably help.

I guess you have a point, so guess I'll just whip it out. The board in question is FFShrine, and the "General Discussion" forum I was referring to is here.

If you look through it, amidst all the goofing around and stuff, there are some serious threads (that would be the place for discussion about religion and politics as well, as I said), which may have a few joke replies here and there, but are taken seriously for the most part and not ripped apart like Scott is worried it will be. Why? Because people there are intelligent and have common sense, much like us and not like SPPf/Gaia/4chan etc. And I guess also because they're used to having that as their Misc discussion which can be fooled around in as well.

Also I noticed a lot of the threads there are actually probably things you'd see in our Misc 8 years ago but not now.

[shazza]

Combining Misc with Mt. Moon? Fuck that for a joke. Some people aren't going to like Mt. Moon; those that chill primarily in Misc don't need to suffer the harsh cruelties of flamewars and whatnot. And if they are combined, then it won't be Mt. Moon at all, it's just going to be "Misc but let's be a tad little less strict". It's stupid, mateeeeeee.

[Jeff]

I don't see what the harm in creating Mt. Moon would be. If it gets old and inactive, we'll just deal with it then.

[shazza]

[abunaidesu]

No need to form an opinion, folks, mine is good enough for all of us

.

[Master Rudy]

People do not have common sense these days, Zak.

Well there's a saying I've heard before and it's one I sometimes like to use myself:

"Common sense isn't very common anymore."

In short if you expect people to be smart about something then about 90% of the time they will astound you with stupidity. Case in point take a look at this exchange I witnessed the other night at work:

Manager-Thanks for calling Domino's. Is this for pick up or delivery?
Customer-Delivery.....I'm at the hotel in Florence.
M-Ok....do you have the address or phone number on hand?
C-I said I'm at the hotel.
M-Which one?
C-THE HOTEL!
M-.......ma'am there are 32 hotels in Florence......which one?

If we leave a Spam forum combined with Misc then that's inviting trouble. You'd expect people to be smart about certain topics but without fail you'll see one idiot ruin it for everyone else. I'm slowly leaning towards yes on the matter but if we do this then Shazza is right. A Spam/Misc forum is simply the current forum with more leeway. Eventually it's going to get abused and it'll just defeat the purpose.

[RedStarWarrior]

.

How adorable!

Combining Misc with Mt. Moon? Fuck that for a joke. Some people aren't going to like Mt. Moon; those that chill primarily in Misc don't need to suffer the harsh cruelties of flamewars and whatnot. And if they are combined, then it won't be Mt. Moon at all, it's just going to be "Misc but let's be a tad little less strict". It's stupid, mateeeeeee.

If we leave a Spam forum combined with Misc then that's inviting trouble. You'd expect people to be smart about certain topics but without fail you'll see one idiot ruin it for everyone else. I'm slowly leaning towards yes on the matter but if we do this then Shazza is right. A Spam/Misc forum is simply the current forum with more leeway. Eventually it's going to get abused and it'll just defeat the purpose.

Looks like I'm not the only one with such concerns.

[Gavin Luper]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that I don't think the SPAM forum is a good idea.

It just boils down to, well ... I honestly don't see the point of it. I think that's it. More pragmatically, it seems like more of our energy would be spent on anarchic shit-talk and general faggotry and less on, you know, making interesting/fun posts in Misc, or trying to liven up all the other subforums of our site and encourage members to be more active.

I know the argument for it is kind of that it will create more free-flowing discussions and activity, but at the end of the day, aren't we basically left with the same level of activity in all the "real" forums (perhaps less), with the new addition of, essentially, a forum full of shit?

Plus, isn't random shit-talk kind of what the chat room's for?

So, I guess my position's clear: I'm very much against the creation of a SPAM forum.

[shazza]

It just boils down to, well ... I honestly don't see the point of it. I think that's it. More pragmatically, it seems like more of our energy would be spent on anarchic shit-talk and general faggotry and less on, you know, making interesting/fun posts in Misc, or trying to liven up all the other subforums of our site and encourage members to be more active.

I know the argument for it is kind of that it will create more free-flowing discussions and activity, but at the end of the day, aren't we basically left with the same level of activity in all the "real" forums (perhaps less), with the new addition of, essentially, a forum full of shit?

I would hope the energy would be spread out. In fact, I feel a bit excited that if there was a SPAM forum, that more interest in Misc would be put into creating discussions about current affairs, who we are and whatnot. I think fun could still entail; the same kind of fun that Misc has more or less endured over the past few months. I also believe that with such a forum, retarded bickering - which seems to have increased in recent weeks - would be less. It also gives the moderator the authority to be more stricter when seeing shit like that occur in Misc, knowing well and good that it's best suited for Mt. Moon, so they can in effect enforce an actual warning.

In a way, the best of both worlds get it: it gives more allowance for rules, but it also gives people a chance to break these rules outside of TPM. I'm not saying that the other forums will become more strict overall, but just when you see arguing and going off topic too much, a moderator now has it in their jurisdiction to warn them that they well and truly know it belongs in Mt. Moon.

If you can't beat them, join them. It's like giving heroin junkies a place to shoot up!

Plus, isn't random shit-talk kind of what the chat room's for?

I think that's more real-time based, and it's sort've a different thing. In the forum, people can respond to usually potentially chat based question, but in their own time. I also feel the forum would try its best for potential humor.

So, I guess my position's clear: I'm very much against the creation of a SPAM forum.

Understandable. I argued a few months back that TPM should become more democratic, although I was probably a bit radical to suggest we rotate our mod and admin team on fixed terms. I think once the discussions are in place, and there seems to be people with two sides, then polls should be conducted:
1) Should we condense the forums to a proposed model? (Such as Heald's)
2) Should we create a SPAM forum, i.e. 'Mt. Moon'?

Or something like that.

P.S: I think the topics 'Mod to Member ratio...' and 'Condensing forums' are really intertwined!

[Gavin Luper]

Mm, I do see that the chat room =/= a spam forum. Fair call.

I think my basic sentiment is that Misc ought to be the place for miscellaneous discussions, both serious and frivolous. Why can't misc itself be a general talk-shit forum as it stands, except maintaining the rules that govern general decorum? I'm not talking necessarily about the rules that relate to relevancy and things like that; I think perhaps the rules could be a bit looser in that regard to make the forum a little more relaxed and fun. I think the fun and relaxed vibe could certainly be fostered within the system we have now. But things like flaming, swearing, general codes of decency (no porn/gore, for example), and treating other people with general respect ... I seriously can't see why I would want to get on board with basically sanctioning that behaviour and dedicating an entire subforum to it.

I definitely see your argument for Mt. Moon in terms of it being the place people are sent to to sort out their arguments, but frankly I see that as a misuse of forum space. If people are going to scream and abuse each other, they can get the hell off the forum and resolve (or exacerbate) their issues in private - via PM, AIM, MSN, whatever - but why on earth should it be done in public?

I guess what I'm saying is that I see your argument for Mt. Moon, and I think there's something valid to it in as much as I think that kind of fun/frivolous/relaxed vibe ought to exist here on TPM, but I definitely don't agree with the creation of such a forum that allows the kind of behaviour described above. I think it would be more beneficial to adapt Misc to become a place where serious and fun discussions coexist and rules of good conduct and general respect still apply.

We could even rename it Mt. Moon; I quite like that name!

[RedStarWarrior]

why on earth should it be done in public?

Entertainment value.

[Gavin Luper]

Entertainment value.

I find myself unable to fault your logic.



FFUUUUUUUUUU

[Magmar]

See, I think a spam forum is a good idea, but maybe we should have a certain seniority limitation to who can post in it, so people can prove they're not going to abuse it.

I mean, when someone who's been here a while posted a one-word reply, a smiley, or just a period, since we know him or her really well, it's not a big deal. In fact we laugh and keep scrolling, because we know how that person communicates, and we get the joke. When a new person does that, we start to doubt whether they are taking the board seriously. Not that many of us take it VERY seriously. I mean, I don't take it very seriously, but I respect it enough to usually post something of somewhat substance. We just have to know our place--in a forum that's almost died many times, and we're right now in a good, busy run that hopefully lasts a long time. And since we all hate to admit but like each other, we stick around and try to keep up the quality.

Can spam be quality? Absolutely. The Ctrl + V thread is quality... is there a purpose? Yes. Is there any substance there? Yes. Is it probably forged by at least 2/3 of the posts? Absolutely. (Don't even deny it, people from the fanfiction forum, that you post clips of your stories there on purpose!) In a way, we're just showing snippets of our lives, and we've all accepted it and just go along and continue to get the satisfaction of the thread.

[RedStarWarrior]

See, I think a spam forum is a good idea, but maybe we should have a certain seniority limitation to who can post in it, so people can prove they're not going to abuse it.

I mean, when someone who's been here a while posted a one-word reply, a smiley, or just a period, since we know him or her really well, it's not a big deal. In fact we laugh and keep scrolling, because we know how that person communicates, and we get the joke. When a new person does that, we start to doubt whether they are taking the board seriously. Not that many of us take it VERY seriously. I mean, I don't take it very seriously, but I respect it enough to usually post something of somewhat substance. We just have to know our place--in a forum that's almost died many times, and we're right now in a good, busy run that hopefully lasts a long time. And since we all hate to admit but like each other, we stick around and try to keep up the quality.

Can spam be quality? Absolutely. The Ctrl + V thread is quality... is there a purpose? Yes. Is there any substance there? Yes. Is it probably forged by at least 2/3 of the posts? Absolutely. (Don't even deny it, people from the fanfiction forum, that you post clips of your stories there on purpose!) In a way, we're just showing snippets of our lives, and we've all accepted it and just go along and continue to get the satisfaction of the thread.

I think a limit on who can post is a good idea. Another forum I go to has karma levels in which you gain higher level the more you are active and as you reach certain levels, more forums become available for you to post in. Now, I do not want to implement the system here, but the idea of allowing someone to post in the forum after a certain number of posts are made by them sounds like a possible idea.

[Magmar]

I like the number of posts, but I would also think a minimum of a month's active membership, or maybe three months, would be valid as well. After all, updating an access list case-by-case using the UBB must be difficult, and I'm not sure if we can implement post count/longevity limits on a subforum. Can we do that with this technology? Then you'd have to apply to get in, maybe? But how much of the administrative team's time should be spent on permissions for a spam forum? There's much to be ironed out... but I think we got this ;-)

[RedStarWarrior]

The capability to change permissions as you reach a post count number is in the software. After all, your label changes after a certain number of posts. I don't know how easy it would be to exploit the existing code to not only change your user title, but grant you access to a forum.

[VirtualPlay]

The capability to change permissions as you reach a post count number is in the software. After all, your label changes after a certain number of posts. I don't know how easy it would be to exploit the existing code to not only change your user title, but grant you access to a forum.

I don't know exactly how it works on vB, but I have worked with SMF and phpBB before, and both have it easy to add access to a certain forum based on postcount or length of account activity, even if it's a simple workaround such as "at 50 posts, you get rank 'Not-a-n00b'; all members with rank 'Not-a-n00b' or higher have access to 'not a n00b chat' board."

So yeah, the technology's there. The worst that they'll have to do is implement a mod to the forum that allows that to happen, but I honestly think the coding is already there. It just needs to be implemented.

As for my views on the whole thing, I'm willing to give it a try. If it fails horribly, we fix it and go back; if it works (or at least doesn't flop), we keep it around. I don't frequent Misc, so I don't see a lot of the crap that goes on here; heck, I'm only posting because I've been told many times about this topic so I came to check it out finally.

[Houndoom_Lover]

Yeah, but tacking on extra rules to the place we don't even have yet kinda defeats the point. I say, let's start the bitch and we'll see what happens and add rules after.

:0

[abunaidesu]

I condone the post count seniority proposal.

[PNT510]

If new people wanna come in and spam in the spam forum then let them. It's a spam forum! It should be no porn and no advertising. Anything else goes.

[RedStarWarrior]

If new people wanna come in and spam in the spam forum then let them. It's a spam forum! It should be no porn and no advertising. Anything else goes.

Yes, so all the new spambots can easily post in there...

[shazza]

SPAM bots don't have self-awareness; I don't see them able to be clickin the warning thing before entering the forum!

As for allowing new members in or not at a certain quota of posts/time joined at, I'll sit on the fence for this one as I can see both logical sides of argument and don't particularly care either way.

[firepokemon]

Am I expected to read four pages or what?Mt. Moon wtf is that? Spew?

[Gavin Luper]

Yes, so all the new spambots can easily post in there...

What's the difference?

[firepokemon]

Can someone make a oneline summary of this thread for me?

[Jeff]

Waaah, too many mods. Let's make a spam forum, we'll call it Mt. Moon!

^ pretty much sums it up.

[shazza]

Yeah, fp, you can give me a kiss on the lips later for thinking of such a great name.

[Houndoom_Lover]

*dressed as Luigi Largo* Do I needta stab a bitch, Jeff? :0 My thread was no where near that whiny.

Also, I vote that the site has a movie night. Repo! will be playing.

[Master Rudy]

Seeing how this is going I think we should just say the hell with talking about it. Just add it already, pick one or two mods and see what happens. At worse if it's a total mess/disaster then delete the fucker. Just make sure the mods know full well going in that if the board tanks that it may not be a long term job.

The capability to change permissions as you reach a post count number is in the software. After all, your label changes after a certain number of posts. I don't know how easy it would be to exploit the existing code to not only change your user title, but grant you access to a forum.

Shouldn't be too hard to program in Red. After all the private boards for the staff are only visible and accessable by those that are mods or higher. Therefore it shouldn't be too hard to program it to allow only those who are say Cool Trainer or higher into the spam forum.

[PNT510]

Yes, so all the new spambots can easily post in there...

Just like they can easily post in the other dozen plus forums we have?

[Kurosakura]

Shouldn't be too hard to program in Red. After all the private boards for the staff are only visible and accessable by those that are mods or higher. Therefore it shouldn't be too hard to program it to allow only those who are say Cool Trainer or higher into the spam forum.[/color]

*looks at post count and whistles* 400 posts until I'm legally allowed to spam!

Anyways, some people came back and made new accounts, like Systematic Revolution, and I'd like to think of myself as fairly productive, so the Cool Trainer title seems a bit unfair for those who contribute to TPM and aren't even allowed in a spam forum due to low post count.

[shazza]

I agree with Kurosakura; if there WAS going to be a minimum limit of postcount, it should be something like 100, not 500. There have been an influx of many new members in the past few months, mostly in ASB and RPG, who exhibit quality posts but still are only Junior Trainer's or Beginner Trainer's. TPM isn't very active these days, and to achieve 500 quality posts, let alone 100 posts, could take some time.