Hoothooters! Can I get sum?

[Oslo]

Since I wasn't a member here at this time last year, I'm curious as to what you could be remembering, Rossy.

[Ayeun]

Happy birthday osloski!

[DarkestLight]

My bad Oslo. I wasn't really home yesterday so I missed out. But that's fixed now,and you get 2 points :O

[Oslo]

Thanks! Yay for Oysters! Yay for Oreos!

[Ayeun]

Oreo's and Oysters together? Random.

[Blademaster]

Oh Christ Charlie is gonna be here any minute now to make some stupid joke about Oreos, I just know it...

[Rossymore]

Since I wasn't a member here at this time last year, I'm curious as to what you could be remembering, Rossy.

You've been here for less than a year?
Impossible.

[chaos_redefined]

He joined January this year. It's written beneath his avatar. Also, happy b'day (even if I'm late. Was out yesterday)

[Oslo]

Thanks for birthday love.

[MeLoVeGhOsTs]

More late birthday love, sorry, have a busy life!

[DarkestLight]

Ok October is here, and I got my hands on Pokemon Ranger III. Prolly may be a lil slower these days due to that and keeping busy with work and what not.

Also. I'm not picking up any reffings right now, as I am revamping my reffing style and I will be clearing out all old refs before starting a new swath with my new and updated reffing style. Its not gonna chance graphically, just my calculations will be more or less modified with all the new stuff that I finally had a chance to wrap my head around. Energy level consumption will drop a great deal, but to compensate, so will round mechanics for me. So yeah,. getting ready for the new wave.


As for Topic. I figure I can get the whole damn ASB to help with the Movelist. So, if you all have a few free minutes here and there, just point out some moves that don't seem to mesh well, whether its a move having Excellent for damage when it should be Moderate-or if its a move that should be explained better in its description....anything. I figure we can all tailor ASB to make sure everyone understands the moves better, so when the new moves come out, I only have to worry about those guys.


And yes, I know I need to add the "banned" moves to the movepool. That will happen this weekend.. -.-

Currently, I'm working through the A's right now, and I'll keep you all posted on how far I get as the month progresses.

Edit 1: Finished A & B. May do C & D later.

[DarkestLight]

Sorry for Double Post, but I'm gonna bring up one move that's kinda bugging me. That being Focus Punch.

I feel half the camp is keen on having it being like we know it, with flinching if you are hit while charging for it. I've also seen it needing a charge turn, like Solarbeam & Skull bash. There's also argument that in the Anime it needs not worry about the flinch aspect. Which do you all think fits FP better in our ASB?

[Knight of Time]

I think having it without the flinch part makes much more sense, I mean, with all the time that Dawn's Aipom/Ambipom successfully used Focus Punch, it seems more appropriate.

[chaos_redefined]

I'm gonna draw attention to pain split about now... Specifically the EN cost. I've had it cost me 40 EN, which is a lot. I do recognize that it is both healing and damaging, but it is also limited application: It can only do both if the user is low on health compared to his opponent. Otherwise, it will be of limited use, or may even heal the opponent while harming the user.

[DarkestLight]

Alright. I was considering the effects of a move as dynamic as Pain Split. However, excluding combo moves (and even then that's a severe combo move) I can't see why any move would cost 40 EN. Like was Explosion tacked onto the end of that?

For me, I think that I'm going to revamp Pain Split to be a variable cost on a higher end of a sliding scale. I will make a note of this. That damn move, causing so much trouble now lol.

[chaos_redefined]

It was by itself. There was a ~60 HP difference (I can go find it if you want). There was no combo involved.

[Mew Master]

chaos, I sent DL a PM about it already and explained my reasoning there as well as telling you and Blade in your Gym Match.

[chaos_redefined]

I'm more interested in making it something I can predict before using it in future. If I use it when grey or rossy are reffing, and i'm on 40 EN or lower, i go down to 0 EN and auto-KO. Not cool. I know you don't do that, but something as swingy isn't something I want as a surprise again.

[Ayeun]

This is one of the reasons why Pain split is banned in most fights.

[Oslo]

That and it's an easy tactic that can brainlessly supply the user with a colossal advantage in the right situation. I'm a big fan of Pain Split bans.

Even still, though, I tend to keep Pain Split <10 EP. But that's just me.

[Blademaster]

Focus Punch: No flinch. It's NEVER happened in the anime, and this is ANIME Style Battling.

Pain Split: I don't care if the enemy is at 100 HP and I'm at 1. No move should ever cost freaking 40 EN unless it's some obscenely powerful combo like Hyper Beam, Draco Meteor, and Explosion. The fact that it heals and damages at the same time isn't something that I buy as a good reason, either, because it ISN'T attacking and healing. It has an errata that indicates it's more of a status anomaly than an attacking/healing move.

[chaos_redefined]

Pfft. Banned moves are for wusses. The most I'll voluntarily ban is "Healing moves that don't do damage", but that's only coz it's so popular, and I figured it would be easier to get an opponent with that.

Then I realized I wanted to face real men, so I stopped doing that.

Edit: Also note that I'm fine with a gentlemen's agreement. Things that you think are off-limits will remain off-limits until your opponent uses them, and vice versa.

Also, while it might be counted as a status anomaly, I can see the argument of it being treated as attacking/healing. I prefer a comparison to TCGs/RPGs/etc... Something highly situational doesn't cost an arm and a leg, even in the times where that situation comes up. If a move lowered my opponent's hp by 30 HP and raised mine by 30, no drawbacks or anything, then yes, I can see complaints about that. This move, however, only does that when the user's HP is 60 HP lower than my own.

[Mew Master]

Focus Punch: No flinch. It's NEVER happened in the anime, and this is ANIME Style Battling.

So that also means that Electric moves can hit Ground Types now too? How about one Thunderbolt TKO'ing Three opponents at once? Or a Caterpie beating two opponents with String Shot and Tackle? How many One-hit KO moves have gone through the Anime? Ooo, does that mean Legendaries should be able to go through Whole teams before they drop?

I'd say keep the Flinch.

Pain Split: I don't care if the enemy is at 100 HP and I'm at 1. No move should ever cost freaking 40 EN unless it's some obscenely powerful combo like Hyper Beam, Draco Meteor, and Explosion. The fact that it heals and damages at the same time isn't something that I buy as a good reason, either, because it ISN'T attacking and healing. It has an errata that indicates it's more of a status anomaly than an attacking/healing move.

Now I'm sorry. If you're going to be inducing a large chunk of damage to your opponent AND heal that same amount at the same time, even through a mystical status link, there is going to be some heavy Fatigue there. No two-ways about it.

[chaos_redefined]

Denz. If I said that there was a magic card such that you could pay 3 mana to deal 4 damage and get the card back, you'd say that was insane, right? Well... there is such a card. The catch is, it has a limitation. In the same way that taking a large chunk of damage out of your opponent and healing that same amount at the same time has a drawback. So, why shouldn't that be taken into account when figuring out the EN cost?

[Mew Master]

Actually I wouldn't say it was insane, I'd say that's just the kind of stuff Magic does. However I akin Pain Split along the lines of Consume Spirit. Deal Damage, Gain life, Costs Mana

In essence, the Energy Cost is the Drawback.

[chaos_redefined]

Which I'd agree with, if you could choose the amount of mana you pay/health you transfer. Since you can't... let's try comparing it to Magus of the Mirror. The effect is doubled (twice the transfer), but it is still determined by the difference in HP.

You'll notice that Magus of the Mirror has a static cost. It doesn't cost more if you are on low health compared to your opponent. But the effect is bigger if you are on low health compared to your opponent.

[MeLoVeGhOsTs]

hi guys

sup

[DarkestLight]

Mlg wins XD.

Keep the 40. He's explained the reasoning. This is partially the movelists fault for not putting a cap...no not a cap, but a reaso--no there's caps in the Movelists for certain moves. I can prolly adjust Pain Split for that kind as well.

His reasoning is sound, but it does come at a superior cost than anyone would expect. Just wanna make sure yer aware of that Denz :O.

[MeLoVeGhOsTs]

Also, Pain Split sucks, I always imagined it costing a lot, just like recovery moves (but more since you're taking HP away from the opponent). High EN. Yesh!

[Blademaster]

So that also means that Electric moves can hit Ground Types now too?

I've spoken in support of that in the past.

How about one Thunderbolt TKO'ing Three opponents at once?

EXTREMELY situational, but by no means impossible.

Or a Caterpie beating two opponents with String Shot and Tackle?

I'm pretty sure this is possible if you were to strategize properly.

How many One-hit KO moves have gone through the Anime?

I dunno, since I'm not an avid watcher. You'd have to consult, say, Bulbapedia for that.

Ooo, does that mean Legendaries should be able to go through Whole teams before they drop?

Depends on the Legendaries in question... Something as powerful as Rayquaza or Mew certainly could.

I'd say keep the Flinch.

And I wouldn't. Was the drawn-out 20 questions prelude needed to express that five-word declarative opinion?

Now I'm sorry. If you're going to be inducing a large chunk of damage to your opponent AND heal that same amount at the same time, even through a mystical status link, there is going to be some heavy Fatigue there. No two-ways about it.

I'm gonna avoid the nerdfest card game comparisons here. Considering I seem to be outvoted, I guess I have to concede. That doesn't mean I'm pleased with the outcome, considering I had no possible way of knowing I'd be submarined not by my opponent, but my REF. I expect this will be handled fairly, gentlemen.


...On a semi-related note...

Pfft. Banned moves are for wusses. The most I'll voluntarily ban is "Healing moves that don't do damage", but that's only coz it's so popular, and I figured it would be easier to get an opponent with that.

Then I realized I wanted to face real men, so I stopped doing that.

I'm starting to think this padawan might just be fit to run a gym in my stead after all.

Maybe.

[Oslo]

But it seems to me that adhering as closely as possible to the anime is what's gonna get you submarined. By downplaying the game component, you're getting rid of the only thing that's at least somewhat consistent and codified. Base everything on the anime and it all goes bananas.

And I don't think you're being fair to the examples Mew gave. How could one String Shot attack and one Tackle take out two Pokemon? No amount of strategy in the world could make that one happen.

[DarkestLight]

Hrm

Blade-in response to your breakdown of Denny's post.
1) Been there, not doing that. That's one form of the structure that's still being adhered to Oslo. I blame the Anime for not fully getting their stuff together and for the most part, that type of action hasn't happened since the Orange League IIRC.

2) I agree. Lemme fight three water type with low energy and I can line up the shot.

3) This has happened. Ask Charles. That battle is still funny to read.

4) OHKO moves are stupidly aggravating, and don't really have a well written transmigration from the games to here...yet. I think I figured out a way for them to work.

5) Yeah let's not touch on that yet. Gonna hafta make a bracket for their usage....

6) I've been pondering the flinch aspect....maybe it should come into effect if the attack they are hit by is something superiorly overpowering, like Elemental Hyper Beams? I do concede that the flinching is annoying at most and messes up strategy alot...but at the same time it forces us to not be reliant on a single move.

7) Blade, Denny is not trying to undermine you. We've discussed this at length and I told him, as I'm repeating now-that he is wiser off stating that moves like Pain Split have a heavy energy backlash in his reffings-before he begins to ref them and leave you both like OMGWTFBBQ;_;*glare@Denz*

Ok. Whew...oh wait, no Oslo it can

Two on one, both Pokemon asleep, partner to Caterpie just died of poison.

Caterpie, uses String shot to bind them together. Then Tackle a into b and the cumulative hit should off them both! Yeah, it can happen.

[papabopp]

uhh Caterpie FTW
i think pokemon should flinch when they get hit setting up focus punch.
ive never liked how double team works here

[Oslo]

Ok. Whew...oh wait, no Oslo it can

Two on one, both Pokemon asleep, partner to Caterpie just died of poison.

Caterpie, uses String shot to bind them together. Then Tackle a into b and the cumulative hit should off them both! Yeah, it can happen.

Lolzerz, except in situation from which the example is derived, Ekans and Koffing had like 100% health apiece or something retarded like that.

[DarkestLight]

What is wrong with Double Team IYO, papa?

BTW-My bad Grey. Happy Birthday later than usual; and 2+ points for you. god damn man you suddenly jumped in the hundreds like the 90's were outta style.

[chaos_redefined]

OK. As one of the people involved, I will say that I am fine with "Pain split can have a high EN cost, as long as warning is given." On the condition that sufficient warning is given. This probably means as early as the moment a pokemon with pain split appears. As has been pointed out, Pain Split is a situational move, and it is possible to work towards that situation. If I work towards that situation, and then get told it has a ridiculously large cost that round, I'm still gonna be pissed. (Please note that it is also possible to work towards that situation and screw up by dying before it's usage. I've nearly done it a couple of times.)

As for the double team thing, if we ran it like the games do, it would be just like minimize/flash/etc... But, the current setup has the advantage that most pokemon learn double team, but not minimize, so we can't get +6 evasion/-6 accuracy very easy.

Next off... I'm gonna agree with Oslo on this. The games are the best method we have to figure out what moves should do. Blade, I know you like getting creative, but if the refs take too much note of it, it can start getting hard to tell what is acceptance of creativity and what is favouritism. I'd rather avoid the favouritism arguments.

Also, happy b'day grey.

[Greyfox]

D'aaaw, thanks everybody. =3

As for Focus Punch, as Blade already knows, I'm in the camp that believes that flinching should occur. Otherwise, there's no real drawback to having such a powerful attack. I guess I could tone it down a bit to where more focus brings out more power, and attacks that deal slight damage (like Swift or something) don't cause flinching versus greater attacks, but I'm still tweaking out my style a bit.

For Pain Split, I do agree with it being very circumstantial. If you've got a pogey with only 2HP and a fresh opponent came around with 100, using Pain Split's gonna result in both pogeys having 51HP at the end of one action. That's gonna cost a lot of energy. 40 may be pushing it, yeah, but I think it should be ultimately based on how much damage and healing is caused by it. So in this case, I think about 25-30PP would be justified.

[Mew Master]

When I was referring to OHKO's I should have been more clear. I wasn't talking about moves like Fissure, or Horn Drill. I was talking about the multitude of times that Ash's Pikachu, or another Main characters Pokemon would be able to knock things out with a single attack.

And on the Three v One example I brought up, I point you towards the First Movie's opening Musical, where Pikachu used a Thunder/Thunderbolt to take down a Pinsir, Venomoth, AND Golem, all at 100 HP, 100 E, Using a Single attack. The Same thing happened with Squirtle (one Bubble Beam) and Bulbasaur (One Solarbeam, though this COULD be justified as Donphan has a 2x Weakness against Grass, although that was the first hit Bulba landed on him the entire Set).

I talked it over with DL, after explaining my reasons for why it cost so much. And we've settled on a compromise that will make itself known in the next reffing for Chaos v Blade.

[chaos_redefined]

Well, on the issue of OHKOs... Even if we work off the games, it's possible for an ice move to knock off garchomp/salamence/flygon/dragonite in one hit in the games. Tell me that's possible here and I'll ask for an example of it ever happening.

ASB has always had a certain element of modification to make battles more interesting. And this is one such modification.

[MeLoVeGhOsTs]

Happy Birthday Grey.