Discussion about religion bashing

[Blademaster]

Louis, your argument is as flawed as every other argument I've read. Your stance is that the Bible must be true because it's in the Bible, which is the "Word of God."

That isn't how logic WORKS. That's how CIRCULAR logic works. There's a difference between believing in a god and believing in a book that was assembled from earlier pagan beliefs and has been HISTORICALLY PROVEN to be full of falsities right down to its most basic teachings. A little bit of research will tell you that not only could the Bible not even get Jesus's BIRTHDAY right (Jesus's birthday was "decided" to be December 25th three centuries after his DEATH.), but it'll also tell you that Jesus himself was more than a bit of a prick, who preached that it was OK to treat your wife subserviently and that slavery was fine in God's eyes.

I'm all for preaching love and peace. It's a great philosophy. But there should be a solid and honest foundation underlying those teachings. The Bible, in all of its interpretations, simply does not have that. There's some good messages in it, but it is mostly so full of inaccuracies and hypocrisies that any sensible human in this day and age should look at it for nothing more than what it is: Poorly-written 2,000 year-old fanfiction.

[Heald]

There's some good messages in it, but it is mostly so full of inaccuracies and hypocrisies that any sensible human in this day and age should look at it for nothing more than what it is: Poorly-written 2,000 year-old fanfiction.

Yeah, no. Say what you want about the spirituality or the supernatural that occurs in the Bible, but historically speaking it is one of the more historically accurate documents of the era, and much of what occurs in the Bible is historically verifiable. I would also object to calling it poorly written; there is a reason why thousands of scholars across the globe dedicate their lives to this day studying Biblical scripture. Simply dismissing it as 'Poorly-written 2,000 year-old fanfiction' just because you don't happen to follow the faith shows how astoundingly ignorant you are of its content and background, possibly even more so than the fundies who take it literally as God's word.

Also, despite your brilliant point, the Bible says nothing of Christ being born on December 25th.

[crown34]

Religion is pretty much massive cults filled with all types of people. Although I really shouldn't talk because I'm a Buddhist.

Swap with some of the rednecks.

Please all rednecks are intolerant and ignorant as hell.

[Blademaster]

Yeah, no. Say what you want about the spirituality or the supernatural that occurs in the Bible, but historically speaking it is one of the more historically accurate documents of the era, and much of what occurs in the Bible is historically verifiable. I would also object to calling it poorly written; there is a reason why thousands of scholars across the globe dedicate their lives to this day studying Biblical scripture. Simply dismissing it as 'Poorly-written 2,000 year-old fanfiction' just because you don't happen to follow the faith shows how astoundingly ignorant you are of its content and background, possibly even more so than the fundies who take it literally as God's word.

I never said it was historically inaccurate. I said it was poorly-written. Mostly because of how many of its scriptures contradict one another and because of how many of Christianity's rules and regulations today are completely absent from it or were not included in it until years or centuries after the events it supposedly documented occurred.

Also, despite your brilliant point, the Bible says nothing of Christ being born on December 25th.

Perhaps... So then, why do we celebrate Christmas on that date and why do so many people celebrate it and label it as the birth of Christ?

You'll have to forgive my ignorance of much of what that book holds; I went to a Catholic grade school. Where the Bible was never discussed or even shown to us.

[Heald]

I never said it was historically inaccurate. I said it was poorly-written. Mostly because of how many of its scriptures contradict one another and because of how many of Christianity's rules and regulations today are completely absent from it or were not included in it until years or centuries after the events it supposedly documented occurred.

I wouldn't call that poorly written. You also have to take into account that the Bible is a collection of books, accounts and scriptures written by dozens of authors, and so it is bound to have several disparities, especially between books that were written centuries or even a millennium apart. As you hint to in your reference to your poor education of the Bible at school, you clearly have a complete lack of knowledge of the theological and historical significance of the structure and style of the Bible. I can understand why though; Catholicism teaches less from the Bible and from its own traditions and doctrines (much of Catholic tradition has little to no grounding in any Biblical scripture). How much did you learn about purgatory and penance, Catholic doctrines with absolutely no grounding in the Bible? And how much did you learn about important theological concepts within the Bible such as eschatology, Christology or Logos?

Perhaps... So then, why do we celebrate Christmas on that date and why do so many people celebrate it and label it as the birth of Christ?

It is believed the date of Christmas was decided at the time the Church was still trying to integrate Romans and their beliefs into them. They replaced existing festivals and celebrations with Christian ones and it is thought the Romans celebrated the Winter solstice on December 25th and they just changed it to Jesus' birthday. It worked so well that not only do all Christians recognise and celebrate Christmas, so do members of other religions or those of no fixed religion.

[Jeff]

Christmas was created by the Catholic Church in Europe as the Christian version of Saturnalia, the Roman holiday where people brought branches of trees into their houses in honor of the god Saturn.

I don't think it was ever intended as being the anniversary of Jesus's birth, but just a way of honoring it and making it easier to convert the Romans.

[Blademaster]

How much did you learn about purgatory and penance,

We learned that Penance (capitalized) was something done after Confession (also capitalized) in order to make God forgive us for our confessed sins.

Also, we weren't taught about Purgatory. We were taught that the good went to Heaven and the bad were sent to Hell. No second chances or rules being bent: The choice was as black and white as could be.

And how much did you learn about important theological concepts within the Bible such as eschatology,

Never heard of it.

Christology

Never heard of it.

or Logos?

Never heard of it.

Got any more?

No, seriously. PLEASE give me more. I'd love to learn more things I was lied to about or purposely not informed of simply because they weren't as important as "Jesus loves you but He'll throw you into the pits of fire and damnation if you don't do what He says.".

I know that Christmas was originally a pagan festival where the solstice was recognized and trees were brought inside (like Christmas trees). The question was rhetorical. There are millions and millions of Christians in the world, and I'm willing to bet that a large chunk of them don't know Christmas as anything more than the Nativity Scene. Hell, I didn't even know it until a few years ago.

[Heald]

No, seriously. PLEASE give me more. I'd love to learn more things I was lied to about or purposely not informed of simply because they weren't as important as "Jesus loves you but He'll throw you into the pits of fire and damnation if you don't do what He says."

This was, and still is many parts of the world, Catholic policy: don't teach people how to read and study the Bible, just preach what you think the messages are and tell them that deviating from or questioning this is heresy. The Bible was originally only approved to be written in Latin so only the elite and learned could read it, and so only the bishops and priests could vouch for what was in it, and the unwashed, uneducated masses had to rely on the Church for salvation. In the first half of the last millennium, the penalty for translating the Bible into a more common language was death. The Catholic Church thought a peasant did not need to worry themselves with the important recurring themes within the Bible or important concepts such as how the Gospels and Acts relate to each other, as long as they preached what they thought the Bible said to the peasants. Most churches today, sadly, basically continue this tradition, although not so blatantly. The best place you'll get any kind of deep understanding of the Bible is in a theology class, not a church or a religious institution. Churches are basically nurseries for believers: do finger-paintings and hang them on the wall. Nobody asks why, they just do it. When you're in your final year of school and you're told to do a finger-painting so it can be hanged on the wall, you're more likely to say 'Why?' or 'That's stupid'. However, some people are happy to just sit there and do finger-paintings all their life as long as they're doing what they're told. Some people just find happiness that way.

[Shadow Wolf]

PLEASE give me more. I'd love to learn more things I was lied to about or purposely not informed of simply because they weren't as important as "Jesus loves you but He'll throw you into the pits of fire and damnation if you don't do what He says.".

Take Biblical lessons with Jehovah's Witnesses about what does the Bible truly teaches (or just ask me via PM, I'll try to help as much as I can)

I believe that the main problem here is that most of the doctrines of Christianity are pagan and were created by men (Trinity, Heaven and Hell, Purgatory, Mary as the mother of God, Christmas, and many others), but since they were considered at that time "messengers of God", you didn't have the authority to question what they said (Sir Isaac Newton discovered that God wasn't a Trinity and he was Catholic, but you could be completely sure that if he would dare open his mouth, he would get killed; plus consider the fact that the only people at that time who had access to the Bible were the high ranking priests and leaders of the Catholic church; now the Bible is accessible to at least 90% of the people, but since most people do not understand everything of the Bible, then they keep believing their church leaders). If we keep believing that the doctrines established in the churches are truth and we do not confirm it in the Bible, then we will believe that the Bible contradicts itself.

[classy_cat18]

I believe that the main problem here is that most of the doctrines of Christianity are pagan and were created by men (Trinity, Heaven and Hell, Purgatory, Mary as the mother of God, Christmas, and many others)

Yeah, about Purgatory. Baptists and other denominations of Christianity don't believe it. There's Heaven, Hell, and that's it.

Another thing that bothers me is how some religions treat some popular things. I have to hear the whole "Halloween is a Satanist holiday" crap every October, and we're encouraged to dress up as Christian-related stuff for our "Fall Festival". We can dress up as more...earthly things. Just no angels, devils, witches, etc. Where's the fun in that? Shoot, I'll just stay home and be a Shinigami! Not to mention the reminders of the evil in Harry Potter and Pokemon. It's annoying for them to take it so seriously. Just entertainment, people!

[Lady Vulpix]

Louis: sorry for the late reply, I've been busy. You've already noticed that you can't use your Bible to prove itself to someone who doesn't believe in it. Well done.

Unlike Jehova Witnesses and, as far as I know, Catholics, Jewish are taught to think, analyze and discuss (that is probably why you'll always find Jewish people arguing with each other). Even the Torah (the 5 books that are said to be mostly God's word and which have very interesting numerical properties in its Hebrew version but that's beside the point), has countless different interpretations and people keep arguing about what exactly was meant and taking different actions in consequence.

So, "obey and don't think because God said so" is not an argument that will work with me in any discussion. Of course, you're free to do so if that's what feels right to you, as long as you don't hurt anyone because of it, which I trust you won't.

Blade: I have much to say about your posts, but alas, I don't have the time right now. I will, however, thank you for showing me the correct English term for 'fanaticism'. I got mixed up with the Spanish word 'fanatismo'. Learning a foreign language is a life-long task.

[Telume]

Louis: sorry for the late reply, I've been busy. You've already noticed that you can't use your Bible to prove itself to someone who doesn't believe in it. Well done.

Unlike Jehova Witnesses and, as far as I know, Catholics, Jewish are taught to think, analyze and discuss (that is probably why you'll always find Jewish people arguing with each other). Even the Torah (the 5 books that are said to be mostly God's word and which have very interesting numerical properties in its Hebrew version but that's beside the point), has countless different interpretations and people keep arguing about what exactly was meant and taking different actions in consequence.

So, "obey and don't think because God said so" is not an argument that will work with me in any discussion. Of course, you're free to do so if that's what feels right to you, as long as you don't hurt anyone because of it, which I trust you won't.

Blade: I have much to say about your posts, but alas, I don't have the time right now. I will, however, thank you for showing me the correct English term for 'fanaticism'. I got mixed up with the Spanish word 'fanatismo'. Learning a foreign language is a life-long task.

^ This.

[Shadow Wolf]

Louis: sorry for the late reply, I've been busy. You've already noticed that you can't use your Bible to prove itself to someone who doesn't believe in it. Well done.

Thanks Gabi!

Unlike Jehova Witnesses and, as far as I know, Catholics, Jewish are taught to think, analyze and discuss (that is probably why you'll always find Jewish people arguing with each other).

So, does that mean that I (being a Jehovah's witness) have to learn to think, analyze and discuss. I thought I was doing this here.

Even the Torah (the 5 books that are said to be mostly God's word and which have very interesting numerical properties in its Hebrew version but that's beside the point), has countless different interpretations and people keep arguing about what exactly was meant and taking different actions in consequence.

This is something that happens in Christianity too. Since there are many different versions of the Bible, some people think that they convey different messages (considering that it has been traduced from its original script (Hebrew-Aramaic-Greek) to different languages).

So, "obey and don't think because God said so" is not an argument that will work with me in any discussion. Of course, you're free to do so if that's what feels right to you, as long as you don't hurt anyone because of it, which I trust you won't.

I don't think I will ever go with that, since God himself doesn't force you to obey Him (hence free will), but if I did this during this discussion, I apologize.

To everyone posting here: Thanks! Is not everyday that we get to talk about this kind of stuff (probably because religion is controversial and threads like this one can lead to flaming, arguing and stuff like that). This has motivated me to keep learning. Plus I haven't seen that anyone wants to push their ideals to another (again, if you felt that I tried to do this, I apologize). This is what helps us grow. Thanks!

[Lady Vulpix]

To everyone posting here: Thanks! Is not everyday that we get to talk about this kind of stuff (probably because religion is controversial and threads like this one can lead to flaming, arguing and stuff like that). This has motivated me to keep learning. Plus I haven't seen that anyone wants to push their ideals to another (again, if you felt that I tried to do this, I apologize). This is what helps us grow. Thanks!

Seconded.

Sorry if I misunderstood your message earlier, and if my post seemed to imply that you don't think or something like that. I was too nervous and in a hurry for personal reasons, so my words didn't come out as I wished they would. It did seem to me for a moment that you were preaching against analyzing the Bible with a critical attitude, but now I see that it was just a misunderstanding, probably also due to the state I was in.

[Magmar]

Learning a foreign language is a life-long task.

Your English is better than many life-long speakers'.

I can speak not to Catholics per se but to Pentecostal versions of Christianity, specifically the Assembly of God. When you start getting into the stricter versions of Christianity, you start to find more of a cult mentality than just a faith. Unlike Catholicism which offers rules on social norms merely as a suggestion as well as the opportunity to immediately atone for your sins, the fierce faiths involve condemning others for partaking in deadly sins such as reading Harry Potter.

There are some people that are so strict, they are not allowed to watch TV, go online, socialize with "worldly" folks, read what they want, etc. In short, they seek to squash any open and inquiring minds in the face of blind faith and McCarthy-like accusations and condemnations. The ignorant members of these churches use terms like Pagan to mean that you are not in line directly with their small, twisted version of Christianity, and there is no wiggle room for finding your own route to Heaven. You are either all-in with their narrow-minded faith, or you are going to Hell with all the Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses, Jews and other Protestants. You are encouraged to go "save" your friends and family members from going to Hell by forcing them to either be in line with your faith, or excommunicating them from your life.

You are taught to only date members of your own specific sect of Christianity, to never listen to music other than gospel/classical, and to openly condemn those who participate in other churches/religions or atheists/agnostics. You are taught that these people all follow in the ways of Satan, who runs the world. You are taught that there is an imminent "Rapture" where Jesus comes down from the sky, takes all the members of your sect into Heaven, then Jesus unleashes seven years of Great Tribulation before finally killing off everyone else who hasn't converted. Then you get a new Earth all to yourselves. So you have this sense of urgency to keep on trying to save as many people and get them into your church before this Rapture happens.

You carry a disgusting sense of guilt every time you let "oh my God" slip from your lips, you believe that those who smoke cigarettes worship the devil, and that Satan himself plays a guitar which is the devil's instrument.

You are taught that it is okay to beat your children if you catch them going online at school or otherwise associating with people outside your church. Beating them mercilessly with paddles or belts is encouraged, and in their schools, parents must sign a waiver that allows the principals and pastors to do this if you are caught engaging in sin. This sin could be arguing, fighting, or merely making a mistake in dress code and forgetting to, say, wear a belt to school.

There are strict rules for hairstyles, and for clothes you can wear (anything with a logo on it is evil, but you can get Christian-themed t-shirts and that is okay).

Children who grow up in these households are subject to one of the most gruesome and disgusting types of child abuse--it is called spiritual abuse, which is abusing your child physically and terrifying them mentally, combined with encouraging antisocial behavior, until the child may become too frightened to function in normal society. All of your actions are strictly monitored and judged. Women are not encouraged to be in leadership positions at all in these households.

I was a victim of spiritual abuse and have resources if you think you were as well. Send me a PM if you think you need to speak to someone about either current conditions in your household where children may be abused, or if you are recovering from spiritual abuse and were not aware of these amazing resources.

Edit: There are universities like this in the United States that don't even allow heterosexual dating relationships to happen. One school, Pensacola Christian College, forces all students to live in the dorms unless they live in the immediately surrounding area--but you cannot get an apartment once you are 21, for you are not allowed to touch alcohol. You cannot go to movies, even on summer vacations. You must be on campus and in bed with lights out before 11 p.m. You cannot be caught listening to music or watching movies, or playing video games in your room. You cannot work on your papers past lights-out. The school gives an academic workload that basically forces you to always be busy during common hours. You can be punished with social probation if you are caught even touching a member of the opposite sex to hug them. If you are found out to be a homosexual, you get a lifelong ban from the campus and are stripped of your degree. All dorms lack any sort of security on individual rooms; there are no locks, so RAs can walk in anytime and make sure you are in bed sleeping by 11 p.m. or you face a write-up.

My mom tried to force my sister to go to school there.

[Blademaster]

What a wonderful world.

[alanmoore]

i think all religions are good, but then again, i'm Christian

God is one!! God has not created any religion, all are created by peoples....

[Lady Vulpix]

Thanks, Magmar.

And alanmoore... What was that all about? Would it be possible for you to make a post that makes sense and has some actual content that contributes to the discussion?

[Blademaster]

Most likely not since he is quite clearly a DBZ spambot.