2012 U.S. Presidential Election

[Roy Karrde]

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epo...bama-1171.html

As you can see, Obama comes out higher in six of these popular polls, Romney in four. Obama clearly has done better.

Umm yes polls do go up and down, especially when you do not have the field sewn up yet. I'll also remind you that polls right now are very poor in predicting the outcome, however Obama is running against history right now both with Unemployment numbers and his Popularity.

Edit: One of the polls where Romney is ahead is Fox News. Big surprise there. Lol.

Yes and even higher in CNN.

[Dark Sage]

My point was, Roy, that Fox is a practical haven for the GOP. Are you suggesting that CNN favors the Democrats?

Come to think of it, I have no idea if it does. I watch MSNBC. I grew sick of CNN a long time ago. If CNN does favor the Democrats, I'm not about to switch. (Showing favor to either side is not good for a news organization.)

[Roy Karrde]

My point was, Roy, that Fox is a practical haven for the GOP. Are you suggesting that CNN favors the Democrats?

I am saying that these companies outsource to polling organizations, unless they are a known Partisan Pollster like PPP, you cannot claim bias just by the company that hired them. By the way Obama was winning to Romney in the previous two Fox News polls, again its all about the swings of the base during a Primary Election.

[Dark Sage]

Roy, please... There are no Democrats that watch Fox News unless they want the laughs. Even most serious Republicans think folks like Glenn Beck are crazy. The only smart thing that guy ever did was admit that the Birther movement was a sham.

Every time I hear their claim that they are "the only fair and balanced news network" I feel like throwing up. That is false advertising, plain and simple.

It no surprise to me at all that a poll taken by Fox News would fall in Romney's (or any Republican's) favor. It IS, a surprise, however, that Obama would be so close in such a poll.

[Roy Karrde]

Roy, please... There are no Democrats that watch Fox News unless they want the laughs. Even most serious Republicans think folks like Glenn Beck are crazy. The only smart thing that guy ever did was admit that the Birther movement was a sham.

Every time I hear their claim that they are "the only fair and balanced news network" I feel like throwing up. That is false advertising, plain and simple.

It no surprise to me at all that a poll taken by Fox News would fall in Romney's (or any Republican's) favor. It IS, a surprise, however, that Obama would be so close in such a poll.

So umm care to explain why the two previous Fox polls have Romney losing to Obama?

[Dark Sage]

I have no idea. My best guess is, Fox was supporting Cain at that point, like a lot of the GOP were. I certainly didn't take part in any poll offered by Fox. Do you think I watch it?

I still stand by the facts, Roy. In ten of those popular polls, Obama wins more than Romney. I answered your original question, btw, when you claimed that Romney was beating Obama in the polls. It would be nice for you to acknowledge that I was right.

[Roy Karrde]

I have no idea. My best guess is, Fox was supporting Cain at that point, like a lot of the GOP were. I certainly didn't take part in any poll offered by Fox. Do you think I watch it?

Again you realize that Fox does not offer the poll, it is Opinion Dynamics. Fox News outsources their polling to that group, just like MSNBC and CNN outsource their polling, and every other network does the same.

I still stand by the facts, Roy. In ten of those popular polls, Obama wins more than Romney. I answered your original question, btw, when you claimed that Romney was beating Obama in the polls. It would be nice for you to acknowledge that I was right.

Sure and I hope polls from over a year out in the mist of the primary battle offer you comfort. I don't know how they would, but then again I am not you.

[Dark Sage]

I'm glad I'm not you, Roy, because you, like everyone who votes Republican, is a dupe.

You think you are a Republican, but only the richest people in this country are true members of the GOP. Everyone else who votes for them is simply fooled by their false promises, such as the campaign promises that they made in 2010 which they have not yet kept. You're fooled by their promises to increase employment while they strike down every bill that would do so. You buy their claim that taxing the rich would cause more unemployment.

I'm glad I'm not you, because folks like you buy all the bull that they put out, despite what common sense shows everyone else.

[Roy Karrde]

You're fooled by their promises to increase employment while they strike down every bill that would do so.

Cutting out the crappy personal attacks. Just wanted to point out that the House Republicans have passed 15 job bills to try and increase employment. Why havn't the Democrats in the Senate voted forward any of the "Forgotten 15"?

http://frontpagemag.com/2011/11/08/t...op-jobs-bills/

By the way on the subject of jobs. Obama is delaying shale drilling which is killing up to 200,000 more jobs.

http://campaign2012.washingtonexamin...ling-200k-jobs

[DarkestLight]

Uhhhhh naive american here to point out something that I feel is a misinterpretation of the facts.
1) alot of people are saying the last 4 years have been shit because of Obama and his mishandling of the administration. Can someone objectivly point out his mishaps? OR at least the major ones?

2) then, can someone explain why the hell are we asamericans are arguing over semantics, instead of fully occupying the places and people that have the money and truly creating this so called new age revolution? Im tired of hearing nrich say to tax them, poo rdemanding money to be equal and all the rageface over debt when we as a nation can put a stupid end to all of it by creating a new focal point of money in ourselves that woul benefit everyone as long as they worked for it. :/ stay at home baby factories need not apply.
3) lastly, I need to understand what makes you folks think Democrats or Republicans will ever get it right? Why these candidates; past their promises and campaigns. What makes you feel they'll get what needs to be done done 8n the set amount of time.

I ask this because we never really never see presidential effect until well after they're gone. I dunno why its just an 8 term one time only gig ._. Gives plans time to fully map out. Prolly would save everyone money....

[Dark Sage]

DarkestLight, the two-term limit tradition was started by Thomas Jefferson. He did not believe that any man should be President for longer than two terms, because he felt that being head of a nation longer would violate the purpose that America was founded on. (They were previously ruled by the King of England, who ruled for life.) Most Presidents after him followed his example, and retired after two terms. FDR only remained in office longer because we were in the middle of World War II, and after that, they decided to make it offical and put a Constitutional Amendment making it law.

(Curiously, although the GOP were the biggest supporters of this Amendment, the first President to actually be affected by it was Eisenhower, who was a Republican. Truman, a Democrat, was in office when it was passed, but due a clause in the Amendment, it did not apply to him because he was elected President before it was passed, and could have run for a third term had he wanted to.)

[Asilynne]

I agree with the no personal attacks common courtesy of debating. It only makes you look bad, anytime you say "ALL people who vote this way are stupid/ignorant/misled/etc etc" you are making a broad generalization that borders on prejudice. You cannot possibly personally know "ALL" people who believe a certain way and therefore you are judging a whole group of people based upon your own opinions. If you say some that would be more accurate because yes there are some on both sides which are stupid and ignorant and only vote the way they do to follow their party blindly, but that goes BOTH WAYS.

[Dark Sage]

Well, Asilynne, I said that Obama was beating Romney in the polls, he challenged me to prove it, I successfully did so, but he still would not acknowledge that I was right.

Roy will never admit he is wrong, a trait that I firmly believe the whole GOP has. He was just getting under my skin at that point.

[Roy Karrde]

Well, Asilynne, I said that Obama was beating Romney in the polls, he challenged me to prove it, I successfully did so, but he still would not acknowledge that I was right.

Roy will never admit he is wrong, a trait that I firmly believe the whole GOP has. He was just getting under my skin at that point.

What? Lets look back at what you said.

He's also leading in each poll I've seen where it's him against one of the GOP candidates. Romney, Perry, Cain... All of them.

To which I replied with

Umm last time I checked both the two latest polls ( Fox News and CNN ) have Obama losing to Romney by 2 and 4.

Not only did I not challenge you with that statement ( I was just stating that the two latest polls disprove you ). But you quickly tried to side step your remarks and say that the majority of the polls has Obama beating Romney. While that is true, that is not what you said, you said each poll.

I assume now since you believe that not admitting that a person is wrong is only a GOP trait, you will quickly admit that you are wrong and we will move on.

[Dark Sage]

See what I mean, people? He won't give up, and he always has to have the last word.

[Asilynne]

You are both stubborn and unwilling to believe you are wrong in any kind of way, you just happen to be on opposing sides so it is an unwinnable war lol But neither of you represent what every member of each others party is to a T, so lets just keep the accusations to each other and leave the rest of the world (dem + repub) out of it ;D

[Dark Sage]

Actually, I'm only a Democrat because I think that they are the lesser of the two evils. My personal belief is that political parties should be abolished.

Do you know what George Washington's political party was? Textbooks say he was a Federalist, but in reality, he opposed the whole idea of political parties. He thought that they would create rivalries that would divide the country and tear it apart.

Unfortunately, this was one of his ideas that wasn't popular, even though many of his ideas were. A shame, really... He was right all along...

Edit: Btw, some people think that a third party would solve the problem, but I disagree. If a third party ever became as powerful as the Democrats and the GOP, it would become just as corrupt as they are, we'd have even more problems.

[Asilynne]

Actually, I'm only a Democrat because I think that they are the lesser of the two evils. My personal belief is that political parties should be abolished.

Do you know what George Washington's political party was? Textbooks say he was a Federalist, but in reality, he opposed the whole idea of political parties. He thought that they would create rivalries that would divide the country and tear it apart.

Unfortunately, this was one of his ideas that wasn't popular, even though many of his ideas were. A shame, really... He was right all along...

Edit: Btw, some people think that a third party would solve the problem, but I disagree. If a third party ever became as powerful as the Democrats and the GOP, it would become just as corrupt as they are, we'd have even more problems.

Aside from the democrat thing hehe this is pretty much the way I look at it too. George Washington is my favorite president, simply because he had the opportunity to be made the King of America, the people wanted him to be but he said no we are done with kings, thats what created the problem in the first place. It takes an extremely smart man and great leader to sit there and deny kingship and all the power that comes with it just for the best interest of the people and the country. He could have easily abused his power but he didn't. Its a shame we don't have someone like that anymore...

I really think we shouldn't have parties either, its too easy to 'label' someone that way. Vote for the person and their policies and plans, not for red or blue. And it should be possible for everyday people to run, not just well-to-do's.

[Dark Sage]

Well, another GOP contender (I use the term loosely) made a fool of himself again.

Speaking at Saint Anselm on Tuesday, Rick Perry said to students: "Those of you that will be 21 by November the 12th, I ask for your support and your vote."

Obviously, Perry forget that voting age is actually 18. Maybe he was confusing it with drinking age... I dunno... But he still should have known better.

This man wants to be President... Give me a break...

Edit: He made another mistake too. Election Day will be Novemeber 6th next year.

[Asilynne]

Maybe he wants their support for a keg stand, come on, don't be so quick to judge lol jk

[Roy Karrde]

Well, another GOP contender (I use the term loosely) made a fool of himself again.

Speaking at Saint Anselm on Tuesday, Rick Perry said to students: "Those of you that will be 21 by November the 12th, I ask for your support and your vote."

Obviously, Perry forget that voting age is actually 18. Maybe he was confusing it with drinking age... I dunno... But he still should have known better.

This man wants to be President... Give me a break...

Edit: He made another mistake too. Election Day will be Novemeber 6th next year.

Now you know how Republicans felt after Obama pulled the "57 states" comment.

That man wanted to be President too... Give me a break...

[Dark Sage]

At least Obama can spell "potato".

I think he knows what day Pearl Harbor Day is on too.

You Republicans keep quoting that "57 state" gaffe every time a GOP candidate makes one, even thought they've made over a dozen compared to his one.

[Roy Karrde]

At least Obama can spell "potato".

I think he knows what day Pearl Harbor Day is on too.

You Republicans keep quoting that "57 state" gaffe every time a GOP candidate makes one, even thought they've made over a dozen compared to his one.

Obama also saw "dead soldiers" at a event, and doesn't know how to say Corpsmen.

We can go round and round this all day. Fact is when you are on the campaign trail 24/7 any candidate is going to have gaffs.

[DarkestLight]

:oints to previous post of his, notes in the time span, his queries have not been answered, but rather deflected. Blames Asi,, because women are sinners.:: :/ Politics, always putting down the brudda man! xD

[Roy Karrde]

Uhhhhh naive american here to point out something that I feel is a misinterpretation of the facts.
1) alot of people are saying the last 4 years have been shit because of Obama and his mishandling of the administration. Can someone objectivly point out his mishaps? OR at least the major ones?

I would say anyone would point to his pivot so quickly on Obamacare in early 2009 as a mishap. He believed the economy would get better just by the Stimulus, and it obviously did not. Instead of working on the economy he brought the American Government into a heated year long argument over Health Care reform while the economy was in the tank.

There are many times where he really has failed in a leadership position, that being one of them. There have also been several other mishaps like the Cash for Clunkers program that ended up a abysmal failure.

And of course what originally pissed me off on Obama, is the White House trying to float the idea of the Vets being forced to pay for private insurance for injuries suffered in the war zone when they got back home.

2) then, can someone explain why the hell are we asamericans are arguing over semantics, instead of fully occupying the places and people that have the money and truly creating this so called new age revolution? Im tired of hearing nrich say to tax them, poo rdemanding money to be equal and all the rageface over debt when we as a nation can put a stupid end to all of it by creating a new focal point of money in ourselves that woul benefit everyone as long as they worked for it. :/ stay at home baby factories need not apply.

Because people are either lazy, or do not want it to change, or have better things to do in life.

3) lastly, I need to understand what makes you folks think Democrats or Republicans will ever get it right? Why these candidates; past their promises and campaigns. What makes you feel they'll get what needs to be done done 8n the set amount of time.

Newly elected groups who are just regaining power, do tend to get things done right away, and respect what they campaigned on and what the people want. The Republicans in 1994 and the Democrats in 2006 are good examples of this. It is when they get too comfortable in power that problems begin to happen, like the Republicans in 2004, and Democrats in 2008.

[DarkestLight]

Thank you Roy for giving me clear cut answers. I feel like a mediator now, lol. Sorry for the bad typos too, I was on my phone the day I posted that. Bad bad keyboard.

[Dark Sage]

You know, I'm really getting sick of the term "Obamacare". Every time I see that word used, I want to hit someone.

It's called the Affordable Health Care Act. I don't recall the Democrats giving dumb names to any GOP bills, no matter how much they disagreed with them.

Why don't you ask Gingrich and Romney about the very similar Health Care plans that they once supported, even though both are staunchly opposing this one.

[Heald]

To be fair, the GOP just gave their own bills dumbass names. PATRIOT Act anyone?

[Dark Sage]

You're allowed to give your own bills dumb names. Giving someone else's bill a dumb name is insulting.

[Asilynne]

It's supposedly a free country, anyone can give anything else a dumb name

[Roy Karrde]

You know, I'm really getting sick of the term "Obamacare". Every time I see that word used, I want to hit someone.

It's called the Affordable Health Care Act. I don't recall the Democrats giving dumb names to any GOP bills, no matter how much they disagreed with them.

Why don't you ask Gingrich and Romney about the very similar Health Care plans that they once supported, even though both are staunchly opposing this one.

Oh of course there have been stupid names given to both sides. Obamacare comes off the 1994 term of Hillarycare, and it is a easy shorthand way to say it and people know what you are saying. Mind you the bill's name in and of itself is stupid as it does not make Health Care affordable.

Also Romney is the only similar Health Care plan I can recall that actually passed. And there is no argument there because it is a state's issue, and states, not the Federal Government have the power to pass mandates.

Edit: Also just quick note, if Democrats were so proud of the bill and what they passed they should have no problem with people slapping Obama's name on it. Funny that they have such a problem with it.

[Jeff]

It's supposedly a free country, anyone can give anything else a dumb name

Just ask Frank Zappa.

[The Blue Avenger]

Edit: Also just quick note, if Democrats were so proud of the bill and what they passed they should have no problem with people slapping Obama's name on it. Funny that they have such a problem with it.

By way of example:

It's perfectly possible to use someone's name in an unflattering way.

See also: parenthetical swearing.

[Dark Sage]

I must be one of the miniscule minorities that did not like that show...

I thought I'd share something with you all... I had an interesting discussion with my employer today... Most people tell you not to discuss politics with colleges, but he had some time to kill.

He told me that he didn't like Obama much, and that if the GOP candidate were better, he'd likely vote Republican in 2012.

Then he told me which Republicans might be better. He said that McCain was, until he did some pretty stupid things that likely cost him the election in 2012. He said Rudy Guliani was. Then he gave some names I didn't recognize.

If I asked if he considered Cain, Romney, Bachmann, Perry, or Gingrich better, he said, not even close. Any of them, and he'd consider Obama far better.

He told me that Obama, despite his faults, probably has nothing to worry about, because the alternative is worse. And frankly, I agree with him.

On another note, he named some members of the GOP whom he thinks should be committed to an asylum. They include Palin and Trump.

[Roy Karrde]

By way of example:

It's perfectly possible to use someone's name in an unflattering way.

See also: parenthetical swearing.

I may be misrepresenting what I was trying to say. I am not saying Obamacare is not unflattering. I am saying that the only reason it is unflattering is because the law is roundly rejected by the American people. If the law was popular, then saying Obamacare for the law would be a political plus for Obama and be welcomed by the Democrats as it would tie his name to a popular law. But the fact is, is that the public hates the law, and as such Obama and the Democrats are trying to distance themselves from it as quickly as possible.

[Dark Sage]

I'd like to state a few facts.

In a recent interview, Michelle Bachmann stated that all (that's right, all) undocumented immigrants should be deported. All of her GOP rivals agreed with this statement.

It would cost about $12 billion to do, which she feels the American taxpayer should pay.

In other news, a recent poll shows that 86% of Hispanics support President Obama. This may be a big factor in states that McCain recently said are "up for grabs", including Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, and Colorado.

My opinion? The GOP's policies are self-destructive. Not to mention stupid.

My opinion is that Bachmann and her cronies should read what's written on the Statue of Liberty's plaque, and then go home.

[Roy Karrde]

I'd like to state a few facts.

In a recent interview, Michelle Bachmann stated that all (that's right, all) undocumented immigrants should be deported. All of her GOP rivals agreed with this statement.

It would cost about $12 billion to do, which she feels the American taxpayer should pay.

And that would be quite a steal.

In other news, a recent poll shows that 86% of Hispanics support President Obama. This may be a big factor in states that McCain recently said are "up for grabs", including Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, and Colorado.

This the same McCain who pandered to the "Pro Criminal" crowd of the Hispanic populous for so many years and was unable to lock down any thing other than a small percentage of the Hispanic vote?

My opinion? The GOP's policies are self-destructive. Not to mention stupid.

So following the law of the nation is now self destructive and stupid to you? Last time I check the President's job was to uphold the laws of the land.

My opinion is that Bachmann and her cronies should read what's written on the Statue of Liberty's plaque, and then go home.

My opinion is all those open border nuts should stop discriminating against those who are not lucky enough to just cross a border and get into the United States.

[The Blue Avenger]

Not to interrupt, but I'm surprised nobody mentioned this yet.

Cain's suspended his campaign... by quoting Pokemon. Looks like he got the quote right this time around.

[Heald]

I'm not really sure what Cain really hopes to achieve with this move, surely his campaign is not really going to recover. He'd be better off pulling out altogether if he has his family in mind.

[Roy Karrde]

I'm not really sure what Cain really hopes to achieve with this move, surely his campaign is not really going to recover. He'd be better off pulling out altogether if he has his family in mind.

From what I am hearing: The “suspension” language is simply a legal formality driven by FEC rules. If he says he’s quitting, certainly legal consequences flow from that; if I’m not mistaken, it would render him ineligible for federal matching funds. “Suspending” carries no such implications. Essentially, he’s saying he’s out without saying it legally.