2012 U.S. Presidential Election

[Roy Karrde]

Sigh...

Romney is responding to the claims by some kook in Montana that Romney's grandfather grew up in a "polygamist commune in Mexico"...

The mudslinging has begun, people... Get a slicker...

That kook would be Montana's Democratic Governor.

Ironic thing is, Obama's FATHER was a polygamist..

[Dark Sage]

That kook would be Montana's Democratic Governor.

Ironic thing is, Obama's FATHER was a polygamist..

True.

But while I would never vote for Romney, I think this is the most absurd accusation made against him that I have ever heard. I'd rate it alongside the Birther conspiracy theories. It boggles the mind how gullible some people are.

[Roy Karrde]

True.

But while I would never vote for Romney, I think this is the most absurd accusation made against him that I have ever heard. I'd rate it alongside the Birther conspiracy theories. It boggles the mind how gullible some people are.

From how those on MSNBC and the NYT have treated Romney's religion I would get used to it, and if Rubio is picked as the VP, expect him to be hit by birther theories.

[Dark Sage]

Roy, what does Rubio have to do to convince you that he doesn't want the position? Revoke his citizenship?

[Roy Karrde]

Roy, what does Rubio have to do to convince you that he doesn't want the position? Revoke his citizenship?

I would suggest reading this story.

“Hey guys,” Biden told them, “I’m not the guy.”

Of course, Biden was “the guy” — days later he was unveiled as Obama’s pick. Biden’s denials that summer day were nothing new. In 2007 he had said unequivocally, “I will not be vice president under any circumstances.” Even though Biden is now the vice president, he was simply following the veepstakes playbook of deny, deny, deny… and then take the job if it’s offered.

In 2000, Dick Cheney said, “I have no absolutely no desire to go back to government.” But at the same time, Cheney was leading George W. Bush’s search for a running mate… a search that, ultimately, settled on – yep, Dick Cheney himself. Still, Cheney maintained that for months he had told Bush that he did not want the number-two slot on his ticket.

“I did turn it down,” Cheney said, “until we got down to the end of the process and he persuaded me that I was what he was looking for.”

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics...takes-denials/

[Dark Sage]

Does the story mention how many politicians said "no" and meant it?

I'll bet that there are far more than the number who didn't.

Colin Powel kept saying he would never run for President, no-one believed him, and he never did. Chris Christie kept saying he would never run for President, no-one believed him, and he never did.

Sometimes, a denial is the truth.

[Roy Karrde]

Does the story mention how many politicians said "no" and meant it?

I'll bet that there are far more than the number who didn't.

Colin Powel kept saying he would never run for President, no-one believed him, and he never did. Chris Christie kept saying he would never run for President, no-one believed him, and he never did.

Sometimes, a denial is the truth.

That is true, we will have to wait till Romney makes his pick, however it's hard to imagine all the politicians denying they want to be VP right now actually mean it. In reality, denying you want to be VP is all part of the game, and probably because it prevents the opponents from preparing extensive files on you.

[Dark Sage]

I still say that a Presidential nominee will never choose an A-list politician as a running mate. The VP nominee is always a loser.

[Roy Karrde]

I still say that a Presidential nominee will never choose an A-list politician as a running mate. The VP nominee is always a loser.

I wouldn't consider George HW Bush a loser during the Reagan administration, seeing how close he came to winning the nomination slot in the 1980 contest.

[Dark Sage]

True. He was more of a loser when he was actually President.

But let's look at the facts:

Joe Biden is a loser.

Sarah Palin is a BIG loser.

Dick Cheney wasn't as big a loser as his boss, but he was still pretty bad.

Dan Quayle... I don't even want to get into him...

The only VP in recent years who was halfway competant was Al Gore, and I don't even like him all that much.

The fact of the matter is, Roy, the VP nominee shouldn't upstage the Presidential nominee, which is why the Presidential nominee never chooses a big name.

[Roy Karrde]

Okay you are some what putting subjective analysis onto them.

Joe Biden: Agreed he was a loser in Presidential politics, but Obama picked him for his experience

Sarah Palin: Highly Popular Alaska Governor, don't really consider that position a losing one.

Al Gore: You are right here in that he was a loser in that he had a failed Presidential bid.

Dan Quayle: Was a very popular and highly electable Indianan Senator.

But I will remind you that Obama was probably pretty close to picking Hillary Clinton, and might dump Biden this year for her. Obama however choose Biden instead of Hillary for his foreign policy experience and to boost his credentials, however after the economic crisis that became null.

[Dark Sage]

Sarah Palin: Highly Popular Alaska Governor, don't really consider that position a losing one.

1. She quit halfway through.

2. There are more people in Mr. Obama's former congressional district than there are in the entire state of Alaska.

3. She must not be TOO popular in Alaska, because a candidate that she recommended there was beaten by a write-in candidate!

[Roy Karrde]

1. She quit halfway through.

2. There are more people in Mr. Obama's former congressional district than there are in the entire state of Alaska.

3. She must not be TOO popular in Alaska, because a candidate that she recommended there was beaten by a write-in candidate!

1: Happened after her Vice Presidential run, again we are talking about before.

2: Does not really matter, because she was seen as some one that could bring Republican and Democrats together and was "Maverick" like in her willingness to attack the Republican party.

3: Again AFTER her Vice Presidential run.

[Dark Sage]

Yeah because Palin approval now = her approval in 2008.

Your own words, Roy.

Apparently, her approval rating has always stunk.

[Roy Karrde]

Your own words, Roy.

Apparently, her approval rating has always stunk.

That.. was sarcasm?

Edit: Several days after her pick, Palin's approval rating was at 47% positive, 30% negative, a +17 total.

[Dark Sage]

I guess you're gonna say that Palin was a big help to McCain, huh?

Go on, hearing you defend Palin is always entertaining.

Frankly, Roy, I knew that Palin wouldn't go away when I heard that she wanted to make her own consession speech, and it seems I was right. This woman is like a bad rash that you can't get rid of.

In fact, the only woman in the U.S. government who I can say is more annoying right now is Bachmann. Which is funny, because before anyone even knew who Palin was, I thought that the most annoying female politician was Hillary.

[Roy Karrde]

Actually I would say Pelosi was the most annoying female politician ^_^

But I don't get where your hatred is for Palin, I mean I dislike Obama, but I acknowledge what he was able to do in 2008 in terms of getting his base boosted while getting the independents to have "white board" expectations for him.

Honestly the only politician I have ever hated was Ted Kennedy and that is only because he got away with really setting the bar for ugly political discourse, but he should have been locked up for engaging in treason with the USSR.

[Dark Sage]

I don't "hate" Palin, Roy.

But I do think that she's an annoying egotist who doesn't realize that her fifteen minutes of fame are over.

I mean really, blaming the President for what the Secret Service did? He had nothing to do with that. The agents involved in the scandal didn't even have any contact with the President. If anyone was to blame, it was the head of that department.

[Roy Karrde]

I don't "hate" Palin, Roy.

But I do think that she's an annoying egotist who doesn't realize that her fifteen minutes of fame are over.

Wouldn't that go for any politician really?

Edit: But here is a free bit of advice, if you really want Palin gone, stop engaging her, stop reporting on her, stop doing anything with her. She will sink back into the either fast enough. But the Democrats will continue to do so, want to know why? Because with out Bush around they need a villain.

[Dark Sage]

Maybe, Roy, but she's also contributed to the rise of the Tea Party, which has given us nothing but headaches. The Teapublicans look upon her as some sort of hero for their cause.

The Tea Party is something that I'm really not fond of. When a political movement names itself after an infamous act of vandalism, you know they're bad news.

[Roy Karrde]

Maybe, Roy, but she's also contributed to the rise of the Tea Party, which has given us nothing but headaches. The Teapublicans look upon her as some sort of hero for their cause.

The Tea Party is something that I'm really not fond of. When a political movement names itself after an infamous act of vandalism, you know they're bad news.

Yes, how dare they name themselves after a pivotal event in American history, those treasonous bastards! Why can't they be all like Occupy Wall Street! They have a non vandalism name, who cares if they shit on police cars and vandalize property, it is ALL IN THE NAME!

[Dark Sage]

I despise the OWS movement too, for the very reasons you just mentioned.

I live in New York City, and I had to work downwind from those guys.

Edit: By the way, Roy, "pivitol event in American history or not", the Boston Tea Party was a crime that cost the East India Company a great deal of money, and not all colonists that were important to the Revolution defended it. Benjamin Franklin was one of many who insisted that the destroyed tea be paid for by the colonists.

[kurai]

National Polling:

National Journal (Apr 22)

Obama 47 - Romney 39

Rasmussen (Apr 23)

Romney 48 - Obama 44

Gallup (Apr 24)

Obama 49 - Romney 43

FOX News (Apr 24)

Obama 46 - Romney 46

Rasmussen (Apr 26)

Obama 47 - Romney 46

Regional Polling:

Texas (PPP, Apr 24)

Gingrich 47 - Obama 45

Paul 47 - Obama 43

Romney 50 - Obama 43

(2008) McCain 55 - Obama 44

New Mexico (PPP, Apr 25)

Obama 54 - Gingrich 36

Obama 53 - Paul 37

Obama 54 - Romney 40

Obama 48 - Romney 35 - Johnson 15

Obama/Biden 53 - Romney/Martinez 42

(2008) Obama 57 - McCain 42

Media:

American Crossroads: "Cool"



Youth & The Obama Economy



One Chance.

[Dark Sage]

Today one the GOP's "personhood" laws (an anti-abortion law that made a fake word popular) was struck down by the Oklahoma Supreme Court as unconstituional.

I'd like to take this opportunity to rubuke the GOP's usual claim supporting bills like this, namely that life begins at conception, and thus, abortion is a form of murder.

I will quote, if I may...

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

Genesis 2:7

That's right, I'm quoting from the Bible. This passage suggest that only AFTER man takes his first breath of life from God through his nostrils is he classified as becoming alive with a soul. This kind of throws a big monkey wrench into the claim that an embryo or a fetus is a living person.

Feel free to say "it's taken out of context" or "you have to read the entire passage" or "that's what it says, but that's not what it means", if you like. I say, it's there in black and white.

[Roy Karrde]

To put something a bit more relevant, here is a interesting break down on how this election could be decided in late October.

This may be as good as it gets. Sputter-speed growth of around 2% and a moribund labor market. As the above chart suggests, the recovery is losing momentum. Here’s Goldman economist Jan Hatzius:

Goldman Sachs is turning increasingly bearish on the U.S. economy, expecting the nation to have added only 125,000 new jobs in April, as the effects of a warm winter, which buoyed employment late last year, wear off.

The forecast is far lower than the Reuters estimate of 170,000, and the average 177,250 jobs created every month from December to March. According to a report by the bank’s Chief U.S. Economist Jan Hatzius, the jobs report will be a further sign of a weakening economy, where inventory accumulation has accelerated and final demand growth remains sluggish.

“Real income growth remains soft, partly because of higher energy prices, wealth effects are not yet particularly positive, consumer confidence remains modest, and again some of the recent strength in retail sales probably reflects weather effects,” Hatzius said.

And this from Goldman market strategist Abby Joseph Cohen is equally as gloomy:

She said she agrees with Goldman economist Jan Hatzius’s forecast of the second half being more “difficult” than the first. “We have seen some deceleration in economic activity” after a mild winter that might have “puffed up” seasonal growth in the first quarter, she said.

Wait, the second half will be “more difficult” than the first? We might be lucky to have 2% growth in the first half. The econ team at Citigroup seems equally as sober: “The 1Q GDP data, a month of rising jobless claims, and likely back-to-back moderate gains in non-farm employment should dampen remaining optimism that 2013 would be the year of decisive growth acceleration in the U.S. Why should any other quarter in 2012 be markedly better than 1Q?”

And given the reluctance of big banks to make U.S. recession calls, I have to think that plenty of these folks are worrying we might get a negative quarter at some point this year. Imagine the political shock wave if, say, the third quarter dipped even a smidgen. To use President Obama’s favorite analogy, the U.S. economy would be back in the ditch. And that report would be released by the Commerce Department on Oct. 26, just 11 days before the election.

http://blog.american.com/2012/04/why...er-26-830-a-m/

Meanwhile Obama is getting blowback on what was a absolutely stupid and disgusting ad by the... left?

“I don’t think there should be an ad about that,” Huffington said Monday on “CBS This Morning.” “I think it’s one thing to celebrate the fact that they did such a great job (with television specials). All that is perfectly legitimate. But to turn it into a campaign ad is one of the most despicable things you can do.”

She added, “It’s the same thing Hillary Clinton did with the 3 a.m. call. ‘You’re not ready to be commander-in-chief.’ It’s also what makes politicians and political leaders act irrationally when it comes to matters of war because they’re so afraid to be called wimps, that they make decisions, which are incredible destructive for the country. I’m sure the president would not have escalated in Afghanistan if he was not as concerned, as Democrats are, that Republicans are going to use not escalating against him in a campaign.”

Obama engaging in despicable tactics? Knock me over with a feather.

[kurai]

let's point out that genesis 2:7 is reliant on a 2500 year old pun since it is kind of funny

it actually reads:

ז וַיִּיצֶר יְהוָה אֱלֹהִים אֶת-הָאָדָם, עָפָר מִן-הָאֲדָמָה, וַיִּפַּח בְּאַפָּיו, נִשְׁמַת חַיִּים; וַיְהִי הָאָדָם, לְנֶפֶשׁ חַיָּה.

translated: Then the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

so the funny part comes with the words אֲדָם and אֲדָמָה

blended: Then the LORD God formed אֲדָם of the dust of the אֲדָמָה

transliterated: Then the LORD God formed 'adam of the dust of the 'adamah

the pun hinges on the fact that in hebrew the word man is inside the word 'ground'

now we have probably seen this phrase for man (אֲדָם) a few other places in genesis

this is because 'adam is both the word for a universal signifier for mankind and the word for what is now a specific mythical character

taken in modern terms through english with an empiricist viewpoint, this is a much less interesting quote

[Dark Sage]

Oh, Roy?

One of your biggest hopes for Obama losing popularity was gas prices climbing.

Well, gas prices are actually going down. Last week, they went down, on average, five cents a gallon nationwide.

In my area, where gas is notoriously expensive (in this city, only rich people have cars), gas prices are now down to what they were last year at this time.

Like I said, it was a gamble and it might not turn out in the GOP's favor. Turn in next week to see what happens.

[Roy Karrde]

Oh, Roy?

One of your biggest hopes for Obama losing popularity was gas prices climbing.

Well, gas prices are actually going down. Last week, they went down, on average, five cents a gallon nationwide.

In my area, where gas is notoriously expensive (in this city, only rich people have cars), gas prices are now down to what they were last year at this time.

Like I said, it was a gamble and it might not turn out in the GOP's favor. Turn in next week to see what happens.

There are numerous things that can sink Obama's Presidency, from gas prices to the economy. All of them end up hurting people at home, which is why Obama is desperately trying to focus on anything but the economy or gas prices.

Edit: Obama again is taking the Osama Bin Laden death today to hit Romney. I do find this a curious if not disgusting strategy. As it is taking his only plus in his Presidency, and using it to hammer his opponent. It would be like George W Bush using 9/11 to attack John Kerry and saying he wouldn't have acted properly during it. I have a feeling the public will not be too kind to Obama on this, and as such he is pissing away his one political advantage.

[Dark Sage]

Roy, Bush could have taken Osama bin Laden out at any time. He didn't because he didn't have the guts that our President did, and wanted to keep what little support he had for the unpopular wars he started.

That is why Obama will always be the better President in my eyes. He had the gumption to eliminate bin Laden that no Republican would have.

[Roy Karrde]

Roy, Bush could have taken Osama bin Laden out at any time. He didn't because he didn't have the guts that our President did, and wanted to keep what little support he had for the unpopular wars he started.

That is why Obama will always be the better President in my eyes. He had the gumption to eliminate bin Laden that no Republican would have.

You realize the only chance that Bush had to take out Bin Laden was Tora Bora. Before that it was largely Clinton that had the chances to get Bin Laden. To say that Bush could take out Bin Laden at any time is not only borderline conspiracy theorish, but it begs the question. Why did Obama not do it before last year? And why didn't Obama tell the public that Bin Laden could have been taken out at any time?

Edit: And as Romney said today, even Carter would have called in the Bin Laden strike, it was a no brainer.

Edit Again: The U.S. Navy Seals are now slamming Obama for his despicable act.

Ryan Zinke, a former Commander in the US Navy who spent 23 years as a SEAL and led a SEAL Team 6 assault unit, said: ‘The decision was a no brainer. I applaud him for making it but I would not overly pat myself on the back for making the right call.

‘I think every president would have done the same. He is justified in saying it was his decision but the preparation, the sacrifice - it was a broader team effort.’

Mr Zinke, who is now a Republican state senator in Montana, added that MR Obama was exploiting bin Laden’s death for his re-election bid. ‘The President and his administration are positioning him as a war president using the SEALs as ammunition. It was predictable.’

....

A serving SEAL Team member said: ‘Obama wasn’t in the field, at risk, carrying a gun. As president, at every turn he should be thanking the guys who put their lives on the line to do this. He does so in his official speeches because he speechwriters are smart.

‘But the more he tries to take the credit for it, the more the ground operators are saying, “Come on, man!” It really didn’t matter who was president. At the end of the day, they were going to go.’

....

Mr Kyle added: ‘He's trying to say that Romney wouldn't have made the same call? Anyone who is patriotic to this country would have made that exact call, Democrat or Republican. Obama is taking more credit than he is due but it's going to get him some pretty good mileage.’

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-campaign.html

[Dark Sage]

When Clinton was President, bin Laden was just a nutcase that nobody listened to.

Getting back on track, Roy, I want to ask you something...

If Romney does win the White House... What exactly is he going to DO once he's there?

Seriously, his speeches are very good at pointing out Obama's faults, but the seem to be kind of lacking on his own plans. He hasn't spelled out his goals in much detail, or given a concrete plan on how he's going to fix the economy.

You can't win the Presidency on negative campaigning alone, you know. If this keeps up, Obama is going to eat him alive when it comes to a debate.

[Roy Karrde]

When Clinton was President, bin Laden was just a nutcase that nobody listened to.

Yeah except for: The attempted day of terror attacks, the embassy bombings in Africa, and the attack on the U.S.S. Cole, other than those deadly attacks, just a nutcase.

Getting back on track, Roy, I want to ask you something...

If Romney does win the White House... What exactly is he going to DO once he's there?

Seriously, his speeches are very good at pointing out Obama's faults, but the seem to be kind of lacking on his own plans. He hasn't spelled out his goals in much detail, or given a concrete plan on how he's going to fix the economy.

You can't win the Presidency on negative campaigning alone, you know. If this keeps up, Obama is going to eat him alive when it comes to a debate.

You realize Romney has laid out plans, while Obama has laid out... nothing. If you believe that only negative campaigning will lose the Presidency then Obama is going to lose. As for what a Romney White House would look like, if he wins then the Republicans probably took back the Senate and still have the House. Meaning Romney could work with Republicans and pass a revolutionary budget putting Medicare and Social Security on a fiscal path, and since it is a budget it is immune to filibuster. To put it plainly Romney has the chance to be the transformative figure that Obama wishes he was.

[Dark Sage]

You realize Romney has laid out plans, while Obama has laid out... nothing. If you believe that only negative campaigning will lose the Presidency then Obama is going to lose. As for what a Romney White House would look like, if he wins then the Republicans probably took back the Senate and still have the House. Meaning Romney could work with Republicans and pass a revolutionary budget putting Medicare and Social Security on a fiscal path, and since it is a budget it is immune to filibuster. To put it plainly Romney has the chance to be the transformative figure that Obama wishes he was.

Your serious? You think the GOP can win the Presidency, House, AND Senate? With all the things the GOP has done?

Well... Uhm...

Roy, I know you're a dedicated Republican voter but...

Okay, I don't have a nice way to respond to such a statement, so I won't.

[Roy Karrde]

Your serious? You think the GOP can win the Presidency, House, AND Senate? With all the things the GOP has done?

Well... Uhm...

Roy, I know you're a dedicated Republican voter but...

Okay, I don't have a nice way to respond to such a statement, so I won't.

Dude the GOP only needs a few more seats to grab ahold of the Senate, while the Democrats have to defend many many more. If Romney wins, we can assume that his coat tails would carry the Senate and protect the House. It is hard to imagine a Romney victory that does not net the needed seats, and hold onto the house.

[Gavin Luper]

Abortion is such a weird issue. I could never justify forcing someone to bring up a foetus they did not wish to conceive (e.g. by rape), and therefore support the right to abortion in essence and in law, but the idea of killing an unborn child is nonetheless abhorrent. It sucks. Also, do men have any rights in regards to their unborn children? It seems not. It's an interesting topic.

I.e. If I hypothetically get my girlfriend pregnant, she has the last word on what happens to my unborn child and I have approximately zero say in the matter.

And this strikes me as doubly problematic because, if my hypothetical girlfriend keeps the baby, I am then, as a male, liable for eighteen years of child support payments. And yet I have no say. Something is fucked up here but I'm not sure what the solution is.

[Oslo]

Abortion is such a weird issue. I could never justify forcing someone to bring up a foetus they did not wish to conceive (e.g. by rape), and therefore support the right to abortion in essence and in law, but the idea of killing an unborn child is nonetheless abhorrent. It sucks. Also, do men have any rights in regards to their unborn children? It seems not. It's an interesting topic.

I.e. If I hypothetically get my girlfriend pregnant, she has the last word on what happens to my unborn child and I have approximately zero say in the matter.

And this strikes me as doubly problematic because, if my hypothetical girlfriend keeps the baby, I am then, as a male, liable for eighteen years of child support payments. And yet I have no say. Something is fucked up here but I'm not sure what the solution is.

You're right that the male is shut out from the decision, but I can't imagine there's any feasible way to strike a compromise here. If the father wants to abort the pregnancy but the mother does not, it's not like either side could "give a little" on the issue. The father may not want to pay child support (just as he may not want to shoulder the various psychological/emotional/social burdens that often attend fatherhood), but a woman's right to exercise agency over her own body without fear of criminal punishment should take precedence. There should be no state management of female bodies. Since only one side can really have say, it should be the woman's right to choose regardless of whether the pregnancy resulted from rape.

(Lol @ digression.)

[Dark Sage]

You notice that the same people who oppose abortion also tend to oppose sex education in public schools?

Kinda ironic, isn't it?

[kurai]

why would that be ironic

the goal is to generate as many children of god as possible and both ends point towards it

anyway

ads are ramping up!

Obama Campaign:

"Forward."

watch this video if you want to see the entire next year of obama's campaign compressed into seven minutes


"Mitt Romney: Extreme on Women's Issues"



"Swiss Bank Account"

this is the first actual tv ad for the campaign season!


Romney Campaign:

"Broken Promises: Spending"



also something strange happened a few hours ago:

@MittRomney "I commend those who planned and conducted the bin Laden raid a year ago, and I applaud President Obama for approving the mission."

perhaps a cue to stop talking about it? or an attempt for GOP to take some credit on the issue

either way the public presentation of "I applaud President Obama" is strange at this stage

[Roy Karrde]

Kind of disappointed in the Forward slogan. All jokes aside about them stealing it from MSNBC, or "Reply to All" already being taken. The group that came up with the genius "Hope and Change" kind of crapped out it seems on this one.

perhaps a cue to stop talking about it? or an attempt for GOP to take some credit on the issue

either way the public presentation of "I applaud President Obama" is strange at this stage

The GOP to my knowledge has always supported Obama on this issue, by not taking the bait and turning it into a political issue, it makes Obama even more petty and pathetic.

[kurai]

what?

it does not make him petty and pathetic to take credit for something for which he is being openly applauded by his direct rival