2012 U.S. Presidential Election

[Dark Sage]

Okay Roy... Let me put in simple terms...

Do you agree that the American people should trust the President? I think so.

Now... Don't you think that if Romney stopped keeping secrets about his finances, people would be more apt to trust him?

Because frankly, I trust Mr. Obama, seeing as he's been very open. You can count on him being transparent.

Romney... Not at all.

And having the GOP control the White House, Senate, and House would be a disaster. Then America truly would be a plutocracy.

[Roy Karrde]

Okay Roy... Let me put in simple terms...

Do you agree that the American people should trust the President? I think so.

Now... Don't you think that if Romney stopped keeping secrets about his finances, people would be more apt to trust him?

Because frankly, I trust Mr. Obama, seeing as he's been very open. You can count on him being transparent.

Romney... Not at all.

Then I assume you could not trust Obama in 2008 when he did not release his long form birth certificate? How can you trust Obama now when he still has not released his College Grades? And I also assume you trusted George W Bush over John Kerry as his wife did not release information on her finances?

And having the GOP control the White House, Senate, and House would be a disaster.

As opposed to having the GOP controlling the Senate and House as what we can expect no matter who wins the White House?

[Dark Sage]

Don't count your chickens yet.

And by the way, Roy, you're acting like Reid is the only jackass on Capitol Hill.

Michelle Bachmann's ludicrous statements that the Muslim Brotherhood is "infiltrating" the U.S. government has had even other House Republicans speaking out against her, and you seem to be awfully quiet about that.

Politicians come in three varieties. Good ones (these are few in number), bad ones (there are far more of these), and batshit crazy ones (there are sadly too many of these). The only thing worse than the last type are the people who vote for them.

[Roy Karrde]

Don't count your chickens yet.

And by the way, Roy, you're acting like Reid is the only jackass on Capitol Hill.

Michelle Bachmann's ludicrous statements that the Muslim Brotherhood is "infiltrating" the U.S. government has had even other House Republicans speaking out against her, and you seem to be awfully quiet about that.

Politicians come in three varieties. Good ones (these are few in number), bad ones (there are far more of these), and batshit crazy ones (there are sadly too many of these). The only thing worse than the last type are the people who vote for them.

Funny thing about Michelle Bachmann's accusations, even though the chance that a candidate is able to escape all the background checks before reaching that level. Is that she has actually released and has backed up information about her claims. Huma Abedin's mother is connected to the Muslim Sisterhood, the female version of the Muslim Brotherhood.

Having atleast some evidence puts her far above Harry Reid, by the way last time I checked Bachmann wasn't the leader of the House, can't say the same for Harry Reid.

[Dark Sage]

Roy, Bachmann is a bigot. How can you defend her?

In fact, what has she accomplished as a member of the House? Nothing, that's what. Not a single bill that she has endorsed has become law. She seems to be able to do nothing but stir controversy and anger people.

Just last week, I asked a member of a woman's rights charity what she felt about Bachmann. She became nervouse, said "Well, we have... differing views... I wouldn't have voted for her..."

I asked her to be honest, and she told me frankly, "I don't like her at all."

Edit: I'm tired, I'm going to bed, but I will be back to continue this tomorrow. I'll leave by saying this: I do NOT truly believe Reid, but it would be nice if Romney would release his returns.

[Roy Karrde]

Roy, Bachmann is a bigot. How can you defend her?

In fact, what has she accomplished as a member of the House? Nothing, that's what. Not a single bill that she has endorsed has become law. She seems to be able to do nothing but stir controversy and anger people.

Just last week, I asked a member of a woman's rights charity what she felt about Bachmann. She became nervouse, said "Well, we have... differing views... I wouldn't have voted for her..."

I asked her to be honest, and she told me frankly, "I don't like her at all."

I am only stating that Bachmann's accusations are backed up with some facts and a few lies or twists, the biggest fact is about the mother. On the other hand, Harry Reid has released nothing about his information, and as we have gone through he might be a Child Molesting Rapist, how can you defend him?

Edit: I'm tired, I'm going to bed, but I will be back to continue this tomorrow. I'll leave by saying this: I do NOT truly believe Reid, but it would be nice if Romney would release his returns.

So you are going down the path of "I don't truly believe Trump, but it would be nice if Obama released his birth certificate"

I have to ask, if you do not believe Reid, why should Romney bow to his stupidity and give in to him?

[Dark Sage]

I am only stating that Bachmann's accusations are backed up with some facts and a few lies or twists, the biggest fact is about the mother. On the other hand, Harry Reid has released nothing about his information, and as we have gone through he might be a Child Molesting Rapist, how can you defend him?

I'm NOT defending him. I just think Romney would score points with voters if he did.

So you are going down the path of "I don't truly believe Trump, but it would be nice if Obama released his birth certificate"

Personally, I didn't WANT Obama to give in to the Birthers. I found the whole thing ridiculous, and thought that Obama had nothing to prove. The accusations were an insult to the office of President.

The difference is... Obama has released ten years of his tax returns, and so have all Presidential candidates, except, as you said, Reagan and Kerry. Even prominent members of the GOP want Romney to do it.

So this request is not NEARLY as unreasonable as wanting Mr. Obama to show his birth certificate, seeing as that is something that NO President has EVER been asked to do.

[Roy Karrde]

I'm NOT defending him. I just think Romney would score points with voters if he did.

Why? Because Democrats would then use the tax returns to attack Romney with it.

Personally, I didn't WANT Obama to give in to the Birthers. I found the whole thing ridiculous, and thought that Obama had nothing to prove. The accusations were an insult to the office of President.

The difference is... Obama has released ten years of his tax returns, and so have all Presidential candidates, except, as you said, Reagan and Kerry. Even prominent members of the GOP want Romney to do it.

So this request is not NEARLY as unreasonable as wanting Mr. Obama to show his birth certificate, seeing as that is something that NO President has EVER been asked to do.

Thing is, that there was also no President in recent memory that had such concerns about their national origin until Obama came along, further more as I have already stated Reid's accusations are just as ridiculous and baseless, so at this point what is the use of giving into them.

[Dark Sage]

I want to share with you a story that someone posted on facebook:

An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never failed a single student before, but had recently failed an entire class. That class had insisted that Obama’s socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer.

The professor then said, “OK, we will have an experiment in this class on Obama’s plan”. All grades will be averaged and everyone will receive the same grade so no one will fail and no one will receive an A…. (substituting grades for dollars – something closer to home and more readily understood by all).

After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy. As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little.

The second test average was a D! No one was happy.

When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F.

As the tests proceeded, the scores never increased as bickering, blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else.

To their great surprise, ALL FAILED and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great, but when government takes all, it fails.

I called bullshit on this story, because it was the seventh time I heard it. All seven times, it from a different person. Not once did the one relating this story give a link, a source, or any clue at all as to where it came from, or say exactly where this supposed college was.

In short, I file this where I file all the attempts I hear by GOTPers to discredit the President with lies: In the trash.

[Jeff]

The story doesn't have to be true to make its point. The point is that when you give people something for nothing, nobody wants to do something to earn something, so eventually, everybody does nothing and everybody gets nothing.

[DarkestLight]

But when you do something to earn something, but get nothing, you get tired of doing something. That's what happening to the people that were doing something but now find themselves unable to

[Dark Sage]

The story is an urban legend that many GOTPers are claiming is fact in an effort to mark Mr. Obama as a socialist.

I have seen interviews with leaders of real socialist groups who, when asked if Mr. Obama is a socialist, say straight out, no.

This does not please conspiracy theorists. They respond by saying that if such groups associated with him, "it would be damaging to their cause". As if these groups had any power to begin with.

I often wonder what color the sky is in the world these people live in.

[Roy Karrde]

Umm where in that story does it imply that Obama is a socialist? The teacher in this fake story is trying to teach the class about collectivism.

By the way why don't you post something relevent, like how Obama is trying to disinfranchise our military men and women in Ohio?

Also it is GOP not GOTP, fix your T key.

[Dark Sage]

GOTP means GOP Tea Party. Where have you been?

And the story has been brought up whenever there's a story about Obama and the economy, even when something good happens.

[Dark Sage]

By the way why don't you post something relevent, like how Obama is trying to disinfranchise our military men and women in Ohio?

Oh, you're a fine one talk, coming from the party trying to pass all the voter ID laws, saying that they're supposed to prevent "voter fraud".

There have been less cases of voter fraud in recent years than there have been UFO sightings. Like we're going to buy that.

Edit: By the way, with the shooting at the movie theater in Colorado still fresh in our minds, news is in of another mass-shooting at a Sikh temple in Wisconsin. Seven are confirmed dead, including the gunman.

I'd just love to see the NRA or any of their puppets in Congress defend their stance against gun control now.

[Roy Karrde]

Again I have to ask if the edit button is broken for you, if it is then mods should be alerted, if not Heald and the Misc staff should feel free to infract you for double posting.

And the story has been brought up whenever there's a story about Obama and the economy, even when something good happens.

So did the GOP personally send it to you recently? If so present the proof, if not I see no reason to post this story.

Oh, you're a fine one talk, coming from the party trying to pass all the voter ID laws, saying that they're supposed to prevent "voter fraud".

There have been less cases of voter fraud in recent years than there have been UFO sightings. Like we're going to buy that.

We can debate the merits of Voter ID laws as long as you like, but that is not a excuse to purposely try to disenfranchise our military.

I'd just love to see the NRA or any of their puppets in Congress defend their stance against gun control now.

And the possibility of Gun Control legislation passing during a election year: 0%

[Heald]

Again I have to ask if the edit button is broken for you, if it is then mods should be alerted, if not Heald and the Misc staff should feel free to infract you for double posting.

I'm not going to infract but I would like a good reason why you keep double-posting instead of editing your original post.

[Dark Sage]

Sometimes I feel like I need to drive the point home, and think that a seperate post will do the job better.

And Roy complaining about one lawsuit when the GOP is using these voter ID laws as a means of voter supression really made me mad. (I mean, come on Roy, no-one is buying the "voter fraud" thing.)

It won't happen again.

[Roy Karrde]

And Roy complaining about one lawsuit when the GOP is using these voter ID laws as a means of voter supression really made me mad. (I mean, come on Roy, no-one is buying the "voter fraud" thing.)

Voter Fraud is a actual problem and takes away from our "One Man, One Vote" system, taking away days from the military so that they can't vote and thus possibly give Ohio to Obama on the other hand is just despicable.

[Dark Sage]

Not buying it, Roy.

They're trying to reinstate a new Jim Crow system, and you bloody well know it.

[Roy Karrde]

Not buying it, Roy.

They're trying to reinstate a new Jim Crow system, and you bloody well know it.

If they were trying to do that, they would not be trying to give out free IDs, or allow various other things to use as a ID. Mind you, you cannot do almost anything today with out a ID, you cannot board a airplane, buy a car, buy a gun, hell you cannot go and see President Obama speak with out a ID. Why should voting be any different?

[Dark Sage]

You Republicans can deny it as much as you want Roy. You're about as convincing as the nutjobs who try to convince us that the Apollo moon landings were a hoax.

[Roy Karrde]

You Republicans can deny it as much as you want Roy. You're about as convincing as the nutjobs who try to convince us that the Apollo moon landings were a hoax.

And may I ask what those two things have to do with each other? This is a debate, treat it like one.

[Dark Sage]

Look Roy, did I miss the hundreds of cases of voter fraud in the last election that made these laws necessary?

There weren't all that many. There were only a handful. It's like how G.H.W. Bush wanted to pass a Constitutional Amendment to make burning the American flag a crime. He wanted to solve something that he made us believe was a problem of epidemic proportions, but was really just a few isolated incidents.

These laws are not needed because voter fraud is NOT a big problem, and the true reason for them is to keep minorities from voting. No-one is fooled by the GOP's claims. I doubt even most GOP voters are.

[Roy Karrde]

Look Roy, did I miss the hundreds of cases of voter fraud in the last election that made these laws necessary?

There weren't all that many. There were only a handful. It's like how G.H.W. Bush wanted to pass a Constitutional Amendment to make burning the American flag a crime. He wanted to solve something that he made us believe was a problem of epidemic proportions, but was really just a few isolated incidents.

These laws are not needed because voter fraud is NOT a big problem, and the true reason for them is to keep minorities from voting. No-one is fooled by the GOP's claims. I doubt even most GOP voters are.

You do realize that voting fraud plays a big part in deciding close elections, just ask the opponent of Charlie Rangel.

State Senator Adriano Espaillat, who claims what took place last week was a “phantom election” in which Board of Elections officials may have “hidden” votes. Ironically, Espaillat also claims that not only is the vote count in question but that Rangel’s forces may have suppressed the Hispanic vote by reassigning bilingual poll watchers and turning some voters away by requesting they identify themselves.

That voter fraud and other shenanigans might have taken place in the district which stretches from Harlem to The Bronx will surprise no one familiar with the grand traditions of New York politics. Nor is there anything particularly innovative about the allies of an establishment figure like Rangel working within the system to make it more difficult for a challenger to take him on.

Given the way these things generally work in New York, we may never know whether Espaillat actually beat Rangel. Nor can we be sure whether the voters allegedly turned away at the polls were really ineligible (in which case Espaillat’s camp was trying to game the results). But what we do know is that wherever politicians and their friends are tempted to cheat, that is exactly what they will do. The stakes involved in such races are high, and anyone who assumes Rangel or any other entrenched officeholder will not stoop to twist, bend or otherwise mutilate the results in order to hang on knows nothing about American political history or politicians.

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/20...voter-id-laws/

It is ignorant to neglect the history of our nation in which ballot box stuffing was prevalent, just as it is ignorant to neglect the fact that in close elections, vote fraud plays a massive problem.

And I do have a feeling that if say in 2002, it was discovered that the GOP had engaged in massive voter fraud in Florida, that had won Bush the election, the Democrats would be singing a different tune right now.

[Dark Sage]

Roy... You just quoted an article where there was an accusation that Hispanic voters were turned away at the polls for lacking ID...

That's exactly the point I'm trying to make!

The voter IDs laws are meant to keep people without IDs - which is mostly minorities - from voting.

Your article practically proved my point.

[Roy Karrde]

Roy... You just quoted an article where there was an accusation that Hispanic voters were turned away at the polls for lacking ID...

That's exactly the point I'm trying to make!

The voter IDs laws are meant to keep people without IDs - which is mostly minorities - from voting.

Your article practically proved my point.

And I have no doubt that the minorities turned away had no idea that they were supposed to produce a ID. No doubt any law passed would need to have campaigns out there saying that they now need a ID to vote, and explaining how to get one for free. Yet you seem to be neglecting if not down right ignoring my entire point which is that in close elections, voter fraud is a problem.

[Dark Sage]

By the way, Roy, I know all about Charlie Rangel.

He's MY Representative, I voted for him in the last election, and I trust him completely.

And seeing as he's the third-longest running member of the House, I don't think he had to cheat to win. It was pretty much a given.

[Roy Karrde]

By the way, Roy, I know all about Charlie Rangel.

He's MY Representative, I voted for him in the last election, and I trust him completely.

And seeing as he's the third-longest running member of the House, I don't think he had to cheat to win. It was pretty much a given.

The vote was incredibly tight, and seeing some of the ethical problems Mr. Rangel has had in the past I wouldn't put anything past him.

[Dark Sage]

Funny, Roy... You're always quick to point out these things, but whenever someone brings up the human rights violations committed against POWs during the Bush Administration, you make excuses.

Yeah, I realize that the odds of Bush and Cheney ever being held accountable for it are slim... But you seem to think that every member of the GOP walks on water while you point out the faults that the Democrats have.

[Roy Karrde]

Funny, Roy... You're always quick to point out these things, but whenever someone brings up the human rights violations committed against POWs during the Bush Administration, you make excuses.

Yeah, I realize that the odds of Bush and Cheney ever being held accountable for it are slim... But you seem to think that every member of the GOP walks on water while you point out the faults that the Democrats have.

And this has to do with voter fraud why? I have no problem pointing out the faults of the GOP, and I am sure some of them do engage in voter fraud as well, but stay focused on the damn subject.

[Dark Sage]

I'm still not convinced that the voter ID laws are completely benign...

You have to admit, they would hurt minority voters more than anyone else, and those voters are a lot more likely to vote Democrat in this election.

[Roy Karrde]

I'm still not convinced that the voter ID laws are completely benign...

You have to admit, they would hurt minority voters more than anyone else, and those voters are a lot more likely to vote Democrat in this election.

Oh I do admit that, and as I said there should be a increased effort to provide voter IDs for free to everyone to counteract that.

By the way I do find it interesting how you said I act as if the GOP walks on water. Did I not just offer you yesterday the possibility to switch places? I would support Obama, and you would support Romney for the week?

For anyone else reading this, would that be interesting to see? To change the dynamic of this thread?

[Dark Sage]

Roy, I don't know if you were on your high school debate team or not, but I certainly was not. That is one extracurricular activity I was not interested in.

As such, I would be severely handicaped trying to argue a viewpoint that I oppose, as I have no experience doing so.

So, don't take this the wrong way, but I must decline your offer. I'm sorry.

[ChobiChibi]

Personally I find it more irritating when people quote the post above word for word when they reply. What's the point?! If you've got something to say about a specific point of the post, then fine, but what's the point of going "this is exactly what you read before, but here you go, look at it again for good measure".

[Roy Karrde]

Well back to more recent things, it seems like the downfall of Harry Reid has truly begun after he was hammered relentlessly yesterday, first from the liberal columnist at the Washington Post.

For Reid, this is yet another brazen and tasteless partisan attack. As majority leader, he has managed to sink the public image of the Senate even lower than it would otherwise be. He contributes to bad feelings, gridlock and the sense — nay, the reality — that everything is done for political advantage. Reid is a crass man, the very personification of the gaudy and kitschy Las Vegas Strip.

...

When Reid accuses the Republicans of being overly partisan, he now lacks all credibility. For a long time it’s been difficult to believe anything he says. Now, it’s impossible.

As for Obama, he is tarnished by this episode. The fresh new face that promised us all a different kind of politics is suddenly looking cheesy. The soaring rhetoric that Obama used in his first campaign has come to ground in the mud of Harry Reid’s latter-day McCarthyism.

Now the White House is distancing itself from Reid.

The White House on Monday distanced President Obama from Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid’s comments that GOP presidential candidate Mitt Romney hasn’t paid taxes in a decade.

White House Press Secretary Jay Carney said on Monday that Reid “speaks for himself” and had spoken on the issue without any guidance from Team Obama.

“He certainly speaks for himself,” Carney said, adding that Obama hasn’t expressed an opinion on Reid’s recent comments.

Soon the only ones defending Harry Reid will be the nutjobs.

[Dark Sage]

I thought you didn't like Huff Post's reporting.

I didn't blame you... I don't like it much either. It's almost as bad as Fox News.

In other news, controversial musician (I use the term loosely) Ted Nugent is at it again. He recently said, "Out and out politicians are anathema to rock-n-roll, so I hesitate to attempt to connect the two. But on important issues, I am saddened to admit that Obama represents everything bad about humanity and Romney pretty much all that is good. It is really that stark."

I don't like Obama-bashers in general, but most of the ones I hear from have a lot more class than Nugent...

Nugent, let me put this as simple as I can... You have it backwards. Foul-mouthed, bigoted, chauvinists like YOU represent all that's wrong with society. People like you represent all of our bad qualities rolled into one, all of our vices and primitive drives. The things you do are what everyone would do in Hobbes "state of nature" model where the only law is the law of the jungle and everyone does as he pleases with complete disregard for any consequenses it might have.

And might I add, when statement against Obama is made by a guy who thinks we'd have been better off if the South had won the Civil War, I find it hard to believe its credibility.





Edit: More serious news now, relating to Reid's accusation. It seems that the Republican National Committee made an accusation concerning it that was just as false: That the "anonymous source" was David Axelrod.

RNC Communications Director Sean Spicer says that this accusation is based on the assumption that Reid made the charge just hours after the Obama campaign's communications chief visited the Senate Democratic caucus.

"You've got to wonder if the so-called source is Axelrod himself," Spicer told CNN. "Hours after meeting with Axelrod, Reid comes out and makes baseless accusations?"

However, there are multiple things wrong with this. Reid sources his claim about Romney to an anonymous Bain investor, which Axelrod is clearly not. Secondly, Axelrod himself denied the accusation against Romney in a statement to CNN.

But the biggest problem with this claim is that Reid actually made the remarks about Romney's taxes the Thursday prior to Axelrod's visit. Spicer has his dates screwed up.

This is quickly turning into something resembling a playground full of misbehaving children, each one blaming the others for everything. It's a disgrace to our government.

[Blademaster]

Okay Roy... Let me put in simple terms...

Do you agree that the American people should trust the President?

HELL NO!

Listen, I'm not that cynical. I don't see anything wrong with liking a politician. I like Obama, for instance, because he can go for longer than a week without making himself look like a braindead thawed Pleistocene primate in a suit in front of the free world like his predecessor.

But TRUSTING a politician? Trust requires/implies honesty, and George Carlin once said, and I quote, "If honesty were suddenly introduced into American life, the whole system would collapse!"

[Roy Karrde]

This is quickly turning into something resembling a playground full of misbehaving children, each one blaming the others for everything. It's a disgrace to our government.

Actually I would say this is a disgrace to the Democratic Party and by extension the Senate and the Obama Administration. To have the two leaders of the House and Senate making idiotic and false accusations that is akin to the Birther Movement and McCarthyism is beyond pathetic. And as even Politico is wondering "Did the Obama Administration give Reid the okay?". Honestly anything but a full denouncement and asking Reid and Pelosi to step down will settle this.

So do not try to do this "Both sides are misbehaving" bull shit, it is your party that has disgraced our Government with this, just as it is you who disgraced yourself for parroting this Zeroism stupidity.

[Dark Sage]

I'M stupid?

Wanting Reid and Pelosi to resign is quite possibly the biggest case of wishful thinking I've ever heard out of you.