2012 U.S. Presidential Election

[Dark Sage]

I'm not surprised Roy, more people tend to watch the premier of football season than political events. That's why NBC changed its schedule and held opening day last nght instead of tonight when Mr. Obama would be making his speech.

You have the ratings for day two of the RNC to compare?

[Roy Karrde]

You have the ratings for day two of the RNC to compare?

RNC night two of the three networks was 9.4 million cumulative total ( Excluding Cable Networks ).

DNC night two of the two networks that aired it was 7.3 million cumulative total.

I excluded the cable networks and only included the three networks because not everyone has cable/satellite, and ABC/CBS would pick up alot of the drop off from NBC for those that decided to watch it over football.

[Dark Sage]

And night one of the DNC was 26.2 million people total.

http://www.wsbtv.com/ap/ap/entertain...gs-race/nR4Mr/

Seems they beat the RNC for that one.

As you said, Roy, day two of the RNC had two million more viewers, however... As you admitted, the RNC did not go against such overwhelming competition that night.

I'd love for both conventions to be held at the same time to truly see which one wins in the ratings, but unfortunatly, things do not work that way.

Edit: On another note, even some GOP political analysists are saying that Mr. Clinton's speech was better than anything that the RNC had.

Alex Castellanos, a longtime cable commentator and former aide to Mitt Romney, said this about it:

"I would recommend to my friend Paul [Begala] here, tonight when everybody leaves, lock the doors. You don't have to come back tomorrow. This convention is done. This will be the moment that probably reelected Barack Obama. Bill Clinton saved the Democratic Party once, it was going too far left, he came in, the new Democrats took it to the center. He did it again tonight."

I should note that the best retort that most GOTPers can make about Mr. Clinton at this point is to keep reminding us of the Lewinsky scandal. They can do that until they're blue in the face, but no-one will care. Mr. Clinton's approval rating was still 60%, better than his predecessor or his successor, and he remains the most potent force that the Democrats have.

[Roy Karrde]

I should note that the best retort that most GOTPers can make about Mr. Clinton at this point is to keep reminding us of the Lewinsky scandal. They can do that until they're blue in the face, but no-one will care. Mr. Clinton's approval rating was still 60%, better than his predecessor or his successor, and he remains the most potent force that the Democrats have.

Actually this is what they are saying about Clinton this morning.


Personally I wish the GOP would go after Clinton for setting us on a course that led to the economic downfall of 2008, but using his own words against Obama is just as good.

Edit: BTW where is Joe Biden? Don't Vice Presidents speak on the second night?

[Dark Sage]

Edit: BTW where is Joe Biden? Don't Vice Presidents speak on the second night?

They originally planned the convention for four nights, but the bad weather cut it to three. Due to the fact that much of the DNC was going to be held in an open-air setting. And that is far from the only setback that the forecast caused.

You think that the bad weather excuse was a sham? I doubt that they would incovenience themselves this much because of a lack of attendence, and then lie about it.

[Roy Karrde]

They originally planned the convention for four nights, but the bad weather cut it to three. Due to the fact that much of the DNC was going to be held in an open-air setting. And that is far from the only setback that the forecast caused.

You think that the bad weather excuse was a sham? I doubt that they would incovenience themselves this much because of a lack of attendence, and then lie about it.

Umm no, they cut it because of funding from 4 nights to 3, and they announced the cut from 4 nights to 3 back in June. Infact there was discussion of not airing the first night of the RNC convention if they had not cut it short because of the hurricane, because it would not be "fair" to the DNC.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...onvention.html

[Dark Sage]

Fine.

To answer your original question, here's the info on when Biden is speaking:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...a9a82ed8dd0417

The nominee and the running mate have not made back-to-back speeches at a convention since Clinton and Gore did it in 1992... But... It worked for them.

[Roy Karrde]

To answer your original question, here's the info on when Biden is speaking:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...a9a82ed8dd0417

"Biden's speech was slated for 9:35 p.m. in Eastern time zones Thursday, before most television networks were scheduled to broadcast live coverage and before Obama speaks."

Makes sense, don't want to have him screw up on national TV.

[Dark Sage]

Makes sense, don't want to have him screw up on national TV.

I'll be glad if he just doesn't distort the truth, like someone I know did in his speech.

[Roy Karrde]

I'll be glad if he just doesn't distort the truth, like someone I know did in his speech.

I wouldn't hold out hopes, this is the guy who did the racist dog whistle a few weeks ago about Republicans putting blacks back into chains.

Of course if you are mad at a politician distorting the truth, I think we can both be fuming in bipartisan anger at Clinton's speech last night.

[Dark Sage]

Roy, Biden could publically use the N-word, and doubt that it would help Romney draw more African-Americans to his side.

And thank you, Plantae. I was going to say the same thing, but every time I blame Bush for the mess we're in, I get an arguement that never ends.

[Plantae]

I'm going to revise my previous statement. I'm sure Roy is about to make some mention of how Bush inherited a recession and the housing bubble that burst in 2008 started forming under Clinton. I don't believe these statements even approach the economic truth of the matter, but I'd rather not see Roy pull out some meaningless second-hand article to prove his point.

[Roy Karrde]

On what logical basis could you possibly give Clinton any portion of the blame for the economic downturn in 2008, when it arose after the two-term tenure of perhaps one of the least fiscally responsible presidents ever elected to office in the United States?

I will point you over to the NYTimes

"Fannie Mae, the nation's biggest underwriter of home mortgages, has been under increasing pressure from the Clinton Administration to expand mortgage loans among low and moderate income people and felt pressure from stock holders to maintain its phenomenal growth in profits.

...

In moving, even tentatively, into this new area of lending, Fannie Mae is taking on significantly more risk, which may not pose any difficulties during flush economic times. But the government-subsidized corporation may run into trouble in an economic downturn, prompting a government rescue similar to that of the savings and loan industry in the 1980's.

''From the perspective of many people, including me, this is another thrift industry growing up around us,'' said Peter Wallison a resident fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. ''If they fail, the government will have to step up and bail them out the way it stepped up and bailed out the thrift industry.''

http://www.nytimes.com/1999/09/30/bu...e-lending.html

Clinton pressured Fannie Mae and the banks to make risky loans to low income people, which fed a cycle of gobbling up underwater loans till the point that it all collapsed.

I'm going to revise my previous statement. I'm sure Roy is about to make some mention of how Bush inherited a recession and the housing bubble that burst in 2008 started under Clinton. I don't believe these statements even approach the economic truth of the matter, but I'd rather not see Roy pull out some meaningless second-hand article to prove his point.

The NY Times speaking of the dangers of what Clinton is engaging in is suddenly meaningless?

Roy, Biden could publically use the N-word, and doubt that it would help Romney draw more African-Americans to his side.

Biden's argument wasn't made to offend Black People, it was made to offend Republicans, and backfired on him by hurting his standing with independents.

[Dark Sage]

I'm going to revise my previous statement. I'm sure Roy is about to make some mention of how Bush inherited a recession and the housing bubble that burst in 2008 started forming under Clinton. I don't believe these statements even approach the economic truth of the matter, but I'd rather not see Roy pull out some meaningless second-hand article to prove his point.

I agree with you 100%, and it seems you were right.

[Roy Karrde]

I agree with you 100%, and it seems you were right.

If you have any rebuttal for the NY Times, please I would be glad to hear it.

[Plantae]

The NY Times speaking of the dangers of what Clinton is engaging in is suddenly meaningless?

A news piece isn't exactly a credible source for examining economic trends. Nevertheless, I will acquiesce that this move by Fannie Mae may have contributed to the problem.

Bush initially moved for greater regulation of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, but later opposed it, so his stink is certainly on this too. The catastrophe still happened under his watch. And I assume you're not going to bother to blame the disastrous Bush tax cuts? Or the vast increase in income inequality that occurred during Bush's tenure?

The truth is that any one piece is insufficient by itself to explain the crisis. I just happen to think that George W. Bush was responsible for a few too many pieces.

But yes, Clinton isn't blameless; and neither is George H.W. Bush, or Ronald Reagan, or Jimmy Carter, or any of the long line of presidents that led up to these economic times.

[Roy Karrde]

A news piece isn't exactly a credible source for examining economic trends. Nevertheless, I will acquiesce that this move by Fannie Mae may have contributed to the problem.

May? Unless you forgot 2008, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac played a LARGE part of the problem.

Bush initially moved for greater regulation of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, but later opposed it, so his stink is certainly on this too.

Well lets see...



Bush and Republicans repeatedly warned that without the proper regulation disaster would happen. The Democrats blocked the regulation....

The catastrophe still happened under his watch.

That is a rather simple view of it.

And I assume you're not going to bother to blame the disastrous Bush tax cuts? Or the vast increase in income inequality that occurred during Bush's tenure?

And that has to deal with underwater mortgages how?

The truth is that any one piece is insufficient by itself to explain the crisis. I just happen to think that George W. Bush was responsible for a few too many pieces.

Then please make a argument for it, but remember I will be providing rebuttles such as the video above showing Democratic obstructionism.

[Dark Sage]

Clinton's approval rating: 60%

Bush's approval rating: Worse than Obama's

I tend to think that more people think the way Plantae does than you do, Roy. After all, you didn't see the RNC invite Bush, or even mention his name.

[Roy Karrde]

Clinton's approval rating: 60%

Bush's approval rating: Worse than Obama's

I tend to think that more people think the way Plantae does than you do, Roy. After all, you didn't see the RNC invite Bush, or even mention his name.

And that matters to the current discussion how?

[Dark Sage]

Here's what I'm saying.

It seems that GOPers love to compare Obama with Carter, thinking that he has something in common with someone whose Presidency is considered by many a failure.

No one ever mentions Bush when making such comparisons. Obama's approval rating is better than Bush's on his worst day. Bush voted by absentee ballot in 2008 because he didn't want to publically convey that he was supporting McCain, fearing it would hurt McCain. Bush is considered such a disgrace that the Romney campaign dare not mention his name for fear of being associated with him.

So why is Obama being compared with Carter and not with Bush, a more recent failure as a President?

Answer: The GOP are the masters of the double-standard.

[Roy Karrde]

Here's what I'm saying.

It seems that GOPers love to compare Obama with Carter, thinking that he has something in common with someone whose Presidency is considered by many a failure.

No one ever mentions Bush when making such comparisons. Obama's approval rating is better than Bush's on his worst day. Bush voted by absentee ballot in 2008 because he didn't want to publically convey that he was supporting McCain, fearing it would hurt McCain. Bush is considered such a disgrace that the Romney campaign dare not mention his name for fear of being associated with him.

So why is Obama being compared with Carter and not with Bush, a more recent failure as a President?

Answer: The GOP are the masters of the double-standard.

And again man, I just have to ask, what does that have to do with Clinton and Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac? Other than serving as a red harring to divert the discussion?

[Plantae]

May? Unless you forgot 2008, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac played a LARGE part of the problem.

Yes, the sub-prime mortgage crisis was one of several problems that led to economic collapse.

Bush and Republicans repeatedly warned that without the proper regulation disaster would happen. The Democrats blocked the regulation...

In 2003. In 2005, the Bush Administration opposed the GSE reform bill, which would have created similar strong regulations.

That is a rather simple view of it.

I agree. But he had two terms to prevent a crisis, and instead he ballooned the debt and exacerbated the problem.

And that has to deal with underwater mortgages how?

Only in that the mounting debt which resulted from these tax cuts and income inequality are also underlying problems that set us on the path to economic downfall. The recession is the result of multiple factors, not one. I blame Bush for his regressive economic policy.

I also think a large part of the blame should be given to Alan Greenspan. The Fed should never have held interest rates so low.

And again man, I just have to ask, what does that have to do with Clinton and Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac? Other than serving as a red harring [sic] to divert the discussion?

How does your argument address the many other failures in economic policy that led to the recession?

[Roy Karrde]

Yes, the sub-prime mortgage crisis was one of several problems that led to economic collapse.

Curious, mind explaining how them

In 2003. In 2005, the Bush Administration opposed the GSE reform bill, which would have created similar strong regulations.

Which had nothing to do with the bill failing, at that point it was the Democrats refusal to go along with it, and the Republicans not wanting to ram it through the Senate against united Democratic opposition.

Edit: Yet the reason they opposed it was that they did not believe it was strong enough.

"STATEMENT OF ADMINISTRATION POLICY

H.R. 1461 � Federal Housing Finance Reform Act of 2005
(Rep. Baker (R) Louisiana and 19 cosponsors)

The Administration has long called for legislation to create a stronger, more effective regulatory regime to improve oversight of Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, and the Federal Home Loan Banks (”housing government-sponsored enterprises” or “housing GSEs”) and appreciates the considerable efforts of Chairman Oxley and Chairman Baker in crafting H.R. 1461. However, H.R. 1461 fails to include key elements that are essential to protect the safety and soundness of the housing finance system and the broader financial system at large. As a result, the Administration opposes the bill.""

I agree. But he had two terms to prevent a crisis, and instead he ballooned the debt and exacerbated the problem.

Of which he released numerous memos for it, and pressured Congress to deal with it. Those that could prevent the crisis by that point, rested with Congress.

Only in that the mounting debt which resulted from these tax cuts and income inequality are also underlying problems that set us on the path to economic downfall. The recession is the result of multiple factors, not one. I blame Bush for his regressive economic policy.

Except neither of those lead to the 2008 crisis, the fall of the banks from subprime lending did. Those suffering from income inequality would not have been able to get the subprime loans from the banks if they were not backed by Fannie Mae, which was again pressured to do so from.... Clinton!

How does your argument address the many other failures in economic policy that led to the recession?

My argument deals with the subprime lending crisis, the crux of the problem with the recession. Bush's approval rating currently? Not so much.

Edit: David Frum also agrees in a quick article from The Daily Beast.

"As Bill Clinton collects his accolades, let's recall: the key decisions that inflated the housing bubble of the 2000s - and that laid waste to the US economy in 2008 -- were taken under Bill Clinton's administration: the decision to leave derivative trading unregulated, the decision to allow deposit-taking institutions to engage in proprietary trading, the pressure on banks to relax mortgage lending standards, the decision to allow Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to grow enormously large thanks to the implicit subsidy of the government guarantee of their bonds and borrowing.

If President Obama inherited a mess not of his own making, it should be remembered of whose making the mess was."

http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...recession.html

Edit Again: Hear comes the Death $tar

" Senior Romney-Ryan campaign officials tell Fox News the campaign will launch an enormous media offensive on Friday, the day after President Obama accepts the Democratic Party’s nomination for a second term. The push will include ad buys in several states that will cost tens of millions of dollars…

Romney-Ryan officials did not repudiate such talk; indeed, one official, in speaking to Fox News, likened the offensive that will begin Thursday to the “daisy cutter” bombs used in the Iraq war"

[Dark Sage]

Interesting story on the news...

Mr. Obama just gave a speech to the 55,000 ticket holders that will have to miss his big speech because of the change of venue. He offered an apology, and encouraged them to stay engaged.

You know, the 55,000 people who so many GOPers said didn't exist, because they claimed that the real reason for the change in venue was because they had trouble filling seats.

The speech was televised, by the way. Saw it with my own eyes.

Among other things, he told the ticket holders:

"I know it's disappointing, I've got to tell you, I saw some of my key staff who had come down here and they've literally been working nonstop for months just getting the logistics of this all put together. Obviously they were a little bit crestfallen, and I know it's especially disappointing to for a lot of you who worked hard to get your tickets to the event and traveled or planned to travel at your own expense to be here."

When I hear some of the things that people accuse him of, I tend to wonder why he hasn't told Mr. Romney that he can have this job.

[Roy Karrde]

You know, the 55,000 people who so many GOPers said didn't exist, because they claimed that the real reason for the change in venue was because they had trouble filling seats.

The speech was televised, by the way. Saw it with my own eyes.

So... you have the names of every one of those 55,000? I am sure the Democrats released it to show that they had that number, I am also sure the Democrats have the proof to show they would have showed up.

When I hear some of the things that people accuse him of, I tend to wonder why he hasn't told Mr. Romney that he can have this job.

Every President gets accused of terrible things, I mean just look at what Bush had to go through. Hell, even Reagan one of the greatest Presidents we ever had, was portrayed as a bumbling idiot back in the day.

[Dark Sage]

Roy, several outlets of the press covered it.

You're just being stubborn now.

[Roy Karrde]

Roy, several outlets of the press covered it.

You're just being stubborn now.

I have no doubt that he spoke on television to those that were disappointed that they would not get to see it.

Just as I have no doubt that the Democrats have been so scared of empty seats, they resorted to busing people in, and even that might not have been enough.

[Dark Sage]

That link you provided was a Fox News story, Roy.

You know, the network that went to court to argue that it had the Constitutional right to tell lies and call them news?

[Roy Karrde]

That link you provided was a Fox News story, Roy.

You know, the network that went to court to argue that it had the Constitutional right to tell lies and call them news?

I believe we all agreed to a new level of civility Dark Sage, address the content and not the site. By the way the story was also by the Associated Press, however Fox News was the first link that turned up in Google Search.

http://news.yahoo.com/dems-cobble-co...-election.html

So again I say, lets maintain that pack of civility and address content, not the sillyness of where it comes from.

[Dark Sage]

Okay Roy. I'm just stating what I know.

I saw the speech on television. It was real. There was commentary by reporters. He was addressing the 55,000 ticket holders who couldn't attend due to the change of venue, who many of his detractors, including you, claimed did not exist.

Even if you make the arguement that they might not have shown up, they did have tickets. Thus, there were enough people with tickets to fill the original stadium, so the DNC did expect them to show up, so they would not have changed the venue because they were expecting a smaller crowd.

I'm not asking for an apology. Only an admission that the accusation (where you accused the DNC of making a boldfaced lie) was false.

[Roy Karrde]

Okay Roy. I'm just stating what I know.

I saw the speech on television. It was real. There was commentary by reporters. He was addressing the 55,000 ticket holders who couldn't attend due to the change of venue, who many of his detractors, including you, claimed did not exist.

I am not saying that he did not make the speech, I am not saying that there are not some ticket holders, what I am saying is that the evidence so far points to there being far less ticket holders than enough to fill the full stadium. ( Busing people in being exhibit A )

Even if you make the arguement that they might not have shown up, they did have tickets. Thus, there were enough people with tickets to fill the original stadium, so the DNC did expect them to show up, so they would not have changed the venue because they were expecting a smaller crowd.

And where is your proof of this? Honestly where is it other than the DNC's word? Do you honestly expect them to say "Well we were not able to give enough tickets out, because enthusiasm for Obama is just in the gutter"

I'm not asking for an apology. Only an admission that the accusation (where you accused the DNC of making a boldfaced lie) was false.

And the proof you have to say my accusation is false is....

[Dark Sage]

Who were the people in the crowd he just gave the speech to? Hired extras?

You claim that his campaign team is broke, and yet he was able to stage a fraud by hiring 55,000 stand-ins?

Come on, Roy.

[Roy Karrde]

Who were the people in the crowd he just gave the speech to? Hired extras?

You claim that his campaign team is broke, and yet he was able to stage a fraud by hiring 55,000 stand-ins?

Come on, Roy.

So you counted every single head in the crowd? What makes you think there were 55,000 people there, and not 40,000 or 60,000, how can you be so sure there were exactly 55,000 there?

[Dark Sage]

Interesting. On the National Weather Map there are thunderstorms that start southwest of Charlotte and extend across the state. It has been raining in central NC since early afternoon... Monsoon rain with thunder and lightning.

Seems that the theory of an "unfilled stadium" fear lost a great deal more support...

[Roy Karrde]

Interesting. On the National Weather Map there are thunderstorms that start southwest of Charlotte and extend across the state. It has been raining in central NC since early afternoon... Monsoon rain with thunder and lightning.

Seems that the theory of an "unfilled stadium" fear lost a great deal more support...

I would suggest going to Weather.com and clicking on the interactive map, the storms are moving AWAY from Charlotte, and the storms heading that way are dying out ( No Sunlight = No Power = Dead Storms ), right now it is Partly Cloudy and expected to be that way for the rest of the night.

The Romney Campaign has issued a statement asking for the Obama Campaign to reign in it's supporters who have gone insane with their Nazi comparisons.

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefi...-nazi-comments

If the left is getting this scared that they are resorting to calling their opponents Nazis, I can't wait till October.

[Heald]

If the left is getting this scared that they are resorting to calling their opponents Nazis, I can't wait till October.

Tea Party supporters have also repeatedly compared Obama and the Democrats to Hitler or Stalin so the door swings both ways.

[Dark Sage]

This made me laugh...

Edit: As you know, the DNC had a surprise guest of their own: Gabirel Giffords, reciting the Pledge of Allegiance.

Anyone who thinks that Eastwood yelling at an empty chair was better than that is free to live with his delusions. I won't argue about it.

Btw, the words "under God" were NOT left out of the Pledge, and this time, the audience appeared to approve.

[Roy Karrde]

Tea Party supporters have also repeatedly compared Obama and the Democrats to Hitler or Stalin so the door swings both ways.

Yeah but I don't really compare those at rallies, to actual elected officials.

Edit: As you know, the DNC had a surprise guest of their own: Gabirel Giffords, reciting the Pledge of Allegiance.

Anyone who thinks that Eastwood yelling at an empty chair was better than that is free to live with his delusions. I won't argue about it.

I don't really think that is a true comparison, Gabby Giffords had probably been scheduled to be there for months, and was not there to make a political speech.

By the way the unemployment numbers came out today, and... Good God they are terrible.

[Heald]

Yeah but I don't really compare those at rallies, to actual elected officials.

Ohio GOP Congressional Candidate Compares Obama To Hitler, Stalin, And Mao

This occurred last month. Both sides have idiots who are equally guilty of this, arguing that one of the parties is worse than the other in this respect is a completely pointless argument as they are usually not representative of the party as a whole.

[Roy Karrde]

Ohio GOP Congressional Candidate Compares Obama To Hitler, Stalin, And Mao

This occurred last month. Both sides have idiots who are equally guilty of this, arguing that one of the parties is worse than the other in this respect is a completely pointless argument as they are usually not representative of the party as a whole.

Okay fair enough.