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Thread: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

  1. #2441
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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Karrde View Post
    But here is the great thing, no matter how optimistic they were, it still does not take away from Obama's piss poor speech.
    It may not have been the barn-burner that Clinton gave, but I wouldn't call it bad.

    And Roy, we both know that you think every speech he makes is bad.

    Edit: Truthfully, , it seems that the biggest factor will be the debates.

    On one hand, Romney came out on top in the debates during the primaries.

    On the other hand... His opponents weren't exactly worthy challengers. Debating Obama is going to be a lot harder for him than debating Bachmann, Cain, or Gingrich...

    And furthermore, he'll be forced to explain why we should vote for him other than "I'm not Obama", which is what he's been running on up to this point.

    I'm gonna put money on Obama for that stage of the game
    Last edited by Dark Sage; 7th September 2012 at 11:17 PM.

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sage View Post
    It may not have been the barn-burner that Clinton gave, but I wouldn't call it bad.

    And Roy, we both know that you think every speech he makes is bad.
    Dude when you have to have your team spin the speech as, and I quote: In short, the president deliberately dialed it down, stopping well short of the altitudes he is capable of reaching.

    http://hotair.com/archives/2012/09/0...-or-something/

    Things are not good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sage View Post
    Edit: Truthfully, , it seems that the biggest factor will be the debates.

    On one hand, Romney came out on top in the debates during the primaries.

    On the other hand... His opponents weren't exactly worthy challengers. Debating Obama is going to be a lot harder for him than debating Bachmann, Cain, or Gingrich...
    Actually I would say Gingrich is much tougher than Obama, as we know Obama has trouble when he steps away from a teleprompter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sage View Post
    And furthermore, he'll be forced to explain why we should vote for him other than "I'm not Obama", which is what he's been running on up to this point.

    I'm gonna put money on Obama for that stage of the game
    Oh quite the contrary, Obama will have to defend his record, he will have to defend Obamacare, the Stimulus, and the dismal Job Creation. None of which he really touched in his speech last night.
    Last edited by Roy Karrde; 7th September 2012 at 11:20 PM.

  3. #2443
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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    I refuse to read anything on hotair.com

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sage View Post
    I refuse to read anything on hotair.com
    Which is why I gave you the relevant quote. Again attack the subject, not the link.

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Karrde View Post
    Which is why I gave you the relevant quote. Again attack the subject, not the link.
    It's perfectly legitimate to question the validity of sources of information. It's attacking the actual people involved or moreover each other that isn't cool. Saying that a source is biased/not credible isn't an ad hominem.
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  6. #2446
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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Btw, Roy, the GOP is so obsessed with Fast and Furious?

    According to the morning news, Mexican authorities have made more progress than the House has managed to do. They have arrested a man believed to be the actual gunman who murdered Border Agent Brian Terry.

    In my book, that will bring far more closure to his family than the House's attempt to blame Holder for the whole thing.
    Last edited by Dark Sage; 8th September 2012 at 06:26 AM.

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sage View Post
    Btw, Roy, the GOP is so obsessed with Fast and Furious?
    You mean other than the death of U.S. Citizens?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sage View Post
    According to the morning news, Mexican authorities have made more progress than the House has managed to do. They have arrested a man believed to be the actual gunman who murdered Border Agent Brian Terry.

    In my book, that will bring far more closure to his family than the House's attempt to blame Holder for the whole thing.
    That's great, that doesn't however relieve the U.S. authorities for their role in it.

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    You miss the point.

    This was a murder. When a murder is committed, the first priority is not playing politics and pointing fingers at the Attorney General.

    The first priority should always be finding, arresting, and convicting the actual murderer.

    Let's face it. This guy was a real criminal. He worked for the Mexican drug cartels, and likely killed far more people than Officer Terry. He was a cold-blooded killer.

    And while the House was playing this political game and making no progress, the Mexican police were able to bring him in.

  9. #2449
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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Karrde View Post
    And of course you have proof to back this up correct?
    what is "this"? you are responding to an exercise that undermines the explanatory claims of the original article. this is rooted in common sense: gdp does not provide any particular causal argument by itself. it is only an indicator. the argument provided is that the deceleration of this particular indicator's decline does not mean an initiated (or imminent) recovery, but could be explained by other factors.

    regardless, the specific process provided is not without merit. i provide "credit" as one potentially mitigating factor because it is able to counteract the immediate problems of rising unemployment - that is, even in an economic crisis, maintaining some demand also stabilizes price levels which stabilizes real GDP.

    here is some research related to such effects:

    Understanding the sources of deep recessions is the holy grail of macroeconomics. The
    most recent recession has produced a sharp increase in unemployment and a large decline in
    GDP (Figure I, top two panels). What factors explain the current economic downturn? This paper
    focuses on the role of household leverage. We show that household leverage measured as of
    2006 is an early and powerful statistical predictor of cross-sectional county-level variation in
    household default, house price, unemployment, residential investment, and durable consumption
    from 2007 to 2009. Any realistic macroeconomic theory of the 2007 recession must be consistent
    with the time-series and cross-sectional patterns documented in this paper.

    The aggregate U.S. evidence highlights the potential importance of household leverage.
    The bottom panel of Figure 1 shows the unprecedented increase in the U.S. household debt to
    income ratio during the years prior to the recession. In 2007, the household debt to GDP ratio
    reached its highest level since the onset of the Great Depression. The initial indicators of
    economic difficulty, namely a rise in household defaults and a decline in house prices, were also
    related to household leverage. These trends began as early as the second quarter of 2006, a full
    five quarters before the initial increase in the unemployment rate. The components of GDP that
    initially declined in 2007 and early 2008 were fixed residential investment and durable
    consumption—two components that most heavily rely on the willingness of households to obtain
    additional debt financing.

    ...

    Overall, our findings suggest that household balance sheets are a crucial component of
    explaining macroeconomic fluctuations. The idea that household debt instigates and exacerbates
    economic downturns goes back to Fisher (1933), and is reiterated in subsequent research by
    Mishkin (1978), King (1994), Leamer (2007, 2009), and Glick and Lansing (2009, 2010)).
    Leamer (2007, 2009) points out that eight of the past ten recessions were preceded by substantial
    problems in housing and consumer durables. Our paper provides the first micro-level cross-
    sectional evidence based on the 2007 to 2009 recession of the link between household balance
    sheets and an economic downturn.

    Our empirical findings should also serve as a useful metric for guiding theoretical work
    on understanding business cycle fluctuations. Standard DSGE models of business cycles often
    ignore the role of financial markets (see Tovar 2008). While this has changed more recently (see
    e.g. Christiano et al 2007), the emphasis has been on firm and bank level, not household level.

    Our work on the other hand points to the potential importance of household balance
    sheets in explaining macroeconomic fluctuations. While more research is needed to determine
    whether household leverage was a catalyst of the recession or an amplification of other variables,
    such as technology or monetary shocks, any explanation of the recession of 2007 to 2009 must
    be consistent with the strong correlation between household leverage and subsequent economic
    outcomes in the cross-section of U.S. counties.

    ...

    The bottom panel of Figure 4 shows monthly retail sales; as it shows, the drop in durable
    consumption (motor vehicles, and furniture and appliances) began very early in the recession.
    The drop in auto sales was particularly large—from the fourth quarter of 2007 to the fourth
    quarter of 2008, auto sales dropped by 30%. The drop in non-durable consumption both began
    later and was far less severe.

    Figure 4 shows that the initial part of the economic downturn was driven by declines in
    durable consumption and residential investment. This is common in post World War II
    recessions (Leamer (2007, 2009)). The early drops in these two GDP components during the
    2007 to 2009 recession occurred simultaneously with an extremely large increase in household
    defaults. Given the importance of credit in the purchase of durable goods and housing, there is a
    suggestive link between deterioration of household balance sheets and the early decline in
    durable and housing consumption.

    Fig. 4


    Fig. 7
    Mian, Atif R., and Amir Sufi. "Household Leverage and the Recession of 2007 to 2009." NBER Working Paper Series 15896 (2010)

    we can observe a sharp rise in home equity and credit card utilization following along the employment crisis - given the demonstrated decline in demand for durable goods alongside a lesser fall in non-durable retail products (i.e. necessary consumables), we see an exercise of consumer credit in order to maintain demand. in turn, we find that bank-issued limits were falling apace - this places an absolute limit on the timeframe in which this strategy could be employed. as initially suggested, after this minimum limit is reached, and without a jobs recovery (to repay such debts and to continue the demand), a further collapse in consumption and sales would be inevitable.

    this is only one possible factor involved in the deceleration of falling real GDP. such a trend is not particularly indicative of recovery, but rather demonstrates the last-ditch effort to prevent collapse ahead of actual recovery circumstances. it is not inconcievable that, failing policy enactment, stagnation at (or decline from) Q4 conditions might have followed.

    as we certainly should not consider claims of a jobless recovery to be valid, relying on metrics which can entirely circumvent the issue will be insufficient.

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sage View Post
    You miss the point.

    This was a murder. When a murder is committed, the first priority is not playing politics and pointing fingers at the Attorney General.

    The first priority should always be finding, arresting, and convicting the actual murderer.

    Let's face it. This guy was a real criminal. He worked for the Mexican drug cartels, and likely killed far more people than Officer Terry. He was a cold-blooded killer.

    And while the House was playing this political game and making no progress, the Mexican police were able to bring him in.
    Last time I checked Mexico was outside of the House's jurisdiction, how ever punishing those that are guilty at the justice department, is not.

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    In a shocker, Mitt Romney now claims that he will actually keep some parts of Obamacare if elected.

    "Well, I'm not getting rid of all of health care reform," the former Massachusetts governor said in an interview with NBC's "Meet the Press." "Of course there are a number of things that I like in health care reform that I'm going to put in place. One is to make sure that those with pre-existing conditions can get coverage. Two is to assure that the marketplace allows for individuals to have policies that cover their family up to whatever age they might like. I also want individuals to be able to buy insurance, health insurance, on their own as opposed to only being able to get it on a tax advantage basis through their company."
    And to think, before this, he was adamant about a complete repeal. Looks like he's flip-flopping again, as he always does.
    Last edited by Dark Sage; 9th September 2012 at 10:26 AM.

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sage View Post
    In a shocker, Mitt Romney now claims that he will actually keep some parts of Obamacare if elected.

    And to think, before this, he was adamant about a complete repeal. Looks like he's flip-flopping again, as he always does.
    So of course you have the quote in which Romney says that what he will replace Obamacare with, will not have ANYTHING in it from Obamacare?

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Here you go:

    http://www.mittromney.com/issues/health-care

    On his first day in office, Mitt Romney will issue an executive order that paves the way for the federal government to issue Obamacare waivers to all fifty states. He will then work with Congress to repeal the full legislation as quickly as possible.
    Note where it says "repeal the full legislation".

    Too easy.
    Last edited by Dark Sage; 10th September 2012 at 07:57 AM.

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sage View Post
    Here you go:

    http://www.mittromney.com/issues/health-care

    Note where it says "repeal the full legislation".

    Too easy.
    Umm I am going to ask again. "what he will replace Obamacare with, will not have ANYTHING in it from Obamacare?"

    I never said he was not going to repeal the full legislation, the question was where did he say that the replacement would not have elements of Obamacare in it?

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    "The full legislation". As in, he would repeal all of Obamacare. And now he's admitting that he likes part of Obamacare.

    In other news, Obama beat Romney in fundraising for August.

    He is leading Romney by more in both the Gallup and Rasmussen Polls.

    The Rasmussen Polls, which are notorious for being skewed in favor of the GOP. He's leading by four points, his biggest lead since March. See for yourself:

    http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ..._tracking_poll

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sage View Post
    "The full legislation". As in, he would repeal all of Obamacare. And now he's admitting that he likes part of Obamacare.
    And? Where is the flip flop?

    Has he ever said "I am not re-instituting any part of Obamacare in my repeal?" So far you just have not reached the bar yet of it being a flip flop.

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Here's something to think about.

    Mitt Romney has no chance of winning a state he was Governor of for four years. Only twice in the past half-century has a major party presidential nominee failed to carry his home state.

    Even Mondale managed to win his home state.

    In fact, the victor in every presidential election for the past 50 years won his home state — with an average margin of victory at 18.8 percent. Romney, however, now trails Obama in Massachusetts by 21 points. So in his home state, the presumptive 2012 GOP nominee is running an astonishing 40 points behind the 50-year average for the winners of presidential elections.

    Those who know Romney and his policies best are more opposed to him than voters in virtually any other state — and far more than voters in the home state of any major party nominee in the past 50 years were to them. One of Romney’s greatest problems may be that Massachusetts remembers him all too well.

    On the other hand, both Obama and Biden are expected to easily win their home states. Obama will most likely win Illinois too, the state where he was Senator.

    Think about it.

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    To Paraphrase West Wing...

    I think Mitt Romney would rather win his home country, instead of his home state.

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    I only wish we could ever have a President as good as the one in West Wing.

    There was more than one reason why that show was clearly fiction.

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ..._tracking_poll

    Well the Obama bounce is largely disappearing now that we start getting in polls that factor in Friday's piss poor jobs numbers.

    Meanwhile on a day in which we lost our U.S. Ambassador to Libya, and his body was paraded through the street, and it seems the Middle East is beginning to go nuts over us.... Obama is off to a fundraiser in Las Vegas.
    Last edited by Roy Karrde; 12th September 2012 at 09:38 AM.

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    And Romney is misquoting the President's response to the attacks while speaking at a rally at Florida, claiming that he made an apology to Libya for this movie they were mad about, when he actually condemned the mob who did killed those people.

    Your point?

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sage View Post
    And Romney is misquoting the President's response to the attacks while speaking at a rally at Florida, claiming that he made an apology to Libya for this movie they were mad about, when he actually condemned the mob who did killed those people.

    Your point?
    Actually unless the us embassy no longer speaks for the government the quote is correct.

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Karrde View Post
    Actually unless the us embassy no longer speaks for the government the quote is correct.
    A-HEM. Seems that is indeed the case:

    http://www.politico.com/politico44/2...gy-135247.html

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sage View Post
    So a government embassy no longer speaks for the u.s. government. Is that not the purpose of a embassy? By the way someone should tell Obama's state department before they are thrown under the bus too, as they said practically the same thing!

    http://twitchy.com/2012/09/11/hillar...hazi-violence/

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    The worst part about this, Roy, is that you're one of the most sane Republicans I've heard from in this whole debacle. A lot of idiots I've heard from want the President to nuke Libya, saying that it's the only way he'll ever show a backbone.

    Edit: Btw, I hate to link to Fox News, but here's Obama's real response (and clearly Clinton approves it, seeing as she was right next to him):

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012...ntcmp=trending

    The article also refutes your claims that Stevens' body was "paraded through the streets". He actually died at the hospital after a Libyian soldier carried him there, and doctors tried for 90 minutes to revive him.
    Last edited by Dark Sage; 12th September 2012 at 11:04 AM.

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    More bad news for Romney... He's taking the heat for his misquoting and criticism of Obama. Pundits are calling his remarks "irresponsible", "craven", and "ham-handed".

    Here's one pundit's response:

    http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/09/1...aths-in-libya/

    This is not gonna look good for him.

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Oh My God! How the hell will Romney recover from such a critique from such a friendly network like MSNBC!

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    MSNBC isn't the only network that's giving him heat, Roy.

    I mean, a Republican knows that he's in trouble when even Fox News won't support what he says, which seems to be the case now.

    Why can't a member of the GOP ever admit that he was wrong? Romney made a damning critique of the President before he knew all the facts, which seems to be exactly what you did, and now it's making him look like a fool. And now he won't even take back what he said.

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sage View Post
    MSNBC isn't the only network that's giving him heat, Roy.
    Of which Romney addressed quite well in a press conference today, I wonder how many questions did Obama take from the media today?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sage View Post
    Why can't a member of the GOP ever admit that he was wrong? Romney made a damning critique of the President before he knew all the facts, which seems to be exactly what you did, and now it's making him look like a fool. And now he won't even take back what he said.
    Lets look at the crux of the critique shall we?

    "I’m outraged by the attacks on American diplomatic missions in Libya and Egypt and by the death of an American consulate worker in Benghazi. It’s disgraceful that the Obama Administration’s first response was not to condemn attacks on our diplomatic missions, but to sympathize with those who waged the attacks."

    Lets look at what was said today by Obama.

    We reject all efforts to denigrate the religious beliefs of others, but there is absolutely no justification to this type of senseless violence. None. The world must stand together to unequivocally reject these brutal attacks.”

    Seems that even in today's statements, Obama is still trying to sympathize with the attackers, and reject a American's freedom of speech.

    But you know what the real problem here is? It is not that Obama got his widdle feelings hurt by Romney.

    It's that we were warned last monday that our embassies were in danger.

    It's that our embassy was staffed not by marines, but Libyan's own guards who sold out the U.S. personal when push came to shove.

    It's that the President did not attend ANY Intel briefings in the last week leading up to 9/11

    There were problems here, major problems, problems we knew about and did nothing to fix, and at the end of the day a American embassy is in flames, American flags are burned, and American citizens are dead.

    So why may I ask, is the media so fixated on why Romney was such a meanie to Obama?

    But I digress, how about we come to a deal? Romney apologizes for being a meanie to Obama, and Obama apologizes for ignoring briefings that very well could have saved American lives.
    Last edited by Roy Karrde; 12th September 2012 at 01:20 PM.

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    I'll agree to that deal if Romney agrees to it.

    I doubt he will, because like I said, a Repuplican never admits that he was wrong just like you are not doing so now.

    Why don't you give me a link to hotair.com? I'm sure they'll put a positive spin on this for Romney.
    Last edited by Dark Sage; 12th September 2012 at 01:28 PM.

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sage View Post
    I'll agree to that deal if Romney agrees to it.

    I doubt he will, because like I said, a Repuplican never admits that he was wrong just like you are not doing so now.
    I would rather think Obama would not agree to such a deal, as it would mean that he has failed as a leader, and is ultimately responsible for the death of US citizens. Such a thing would be, well how shall we say it: A election killer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sage View Post
    Why don't you give me a link to hotair.com? I'm sure they'll put a positive spin on this for Romney.
    Because I am merely going for information, not commentary, Hot Air does not have the information I was looking for.
    Last edited by Roy Karrde; 12th September 2012 at 01:31 PM.

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Roy, here's what I'm seeing here...

    Romney did something dumb, and now that he's getting heat for it, all you're doing is blaming the President for not taking steps to prevent the killings. You're making excuses.

    The person who should really be blamed is the guy who thought that making a movie insulting Mohammed was a good idea. You call it free speech. I call it asking for trouble and making us a target.

    I also call it stupidity. Free speech is one thing, but publically insulting two billion people is not wise.

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sage View Post
    Roy, here's what I'm seeing here...

    Romney did something dumb, and now that he's getting heat for it, all you're doing is blaming the President for not taking steps to prevent the killings. You're making excuses.
    Yes.. how dare I focus on not saving the lives of U.S. citizens....

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sage View Post
    The person who should really be blamed is the guy who thought that making a movie insulting Mohammed was a good idea. You call it free speech. I call it asking for trouble and making us a target.

    I also call it stupidity. Free speech is one thing, but publically insulting two billion people is not wise.
    Oh yes, lets return to the good ole days of Anti Blasphamy laws, how dare we have such archaic things like freedom of speech.

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Say what you will, Roy.

    But when I turn on the TV, I can turn to any network you can name... No-one is siding with Romney at this point. Not even Fox News.

    Know why? Because he stated a false report as fact before he knew all the details. And now he won't admit he was mistaken.

  35. #2475
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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sage View Post
    Say what you will, Roy.

    But when I turn on the TV, I can turn to any network you can name... No-one is siding with Romney at this point. Not even Fox News.

    Know why? Because he stated a false report as fact before he knew all the details. And now he won't admit he was mistaken.
    So the tweet by U.S. embassy personal, what is essentially a arm and voice of the U.S. Government in Libya, is now false? The tweet happened, it did exist, and at the time it was the only statement out there by U.S. Government personal.

    But as I have said Romney at a news conference today took questions from reporters and explained his position. May I ask, and I do want a answer, how many questions did Obama take today?

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    None. He was not asked any.

    His address in the Rose Garden was NOT intended to be a press conference, and everyone attending knew that. The press does not expect the President to take questions when it isn't a press conference.

    And if I was telling you this in person, my voice would have a heavy tone of annoyance in it, Roy.

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sage View Post
    None. He was not asked any.

    His address in the Rose Garden was NOT intended to be a press conference, and everyone attending knew that. The press does not expect the President to take questions when it isn't a press conference.

    And if I was telling you this in person, my voice would have a heavy tone of annoyance in it, Roy.
    So I would have to say in terms of respect, Romney gains more here than Obama, atleast he was willing to answer questions by the press, not shove them aside like Obama usually does.

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Roy, find a member of the press whose opinion truly matters who will defend what Romney said, and then I'll admit that Romney stands to gain an advantage from this.

    Okay?

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sage View Post
    Roy, find a member of the press whose opinion truly matters who will defend what Romney said, and then I'll admit that Romney stands to gain an advantage from this.

    Okay?
    Why? Seriously why should I waste my time even looking right now? It's a non story, especially compared to the failures of the Obama Administration leading up to this attack.

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    And when the next polls are out, we'll see just who this helped.

    Frankly, I don't think it will be an "election killer" for Obama.

    On the other hand, for the guy holding the press conference that seemed like it was set up to make it look like he was President already, as if he believed that to be the case with his oversized ego... I'm not too sure.

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