RI, MN, DE, CA get marriage equality. DOMA dies, and now the UK!

[Heald]

Edit: Oh, and Heald? I understand you were trying to make a satire there, but it was really in VERY poor taste.

Thank you, that was precisely the point i.e. to present a hideous opinion that is logically consistent with a viewpoint that is also equally hideous, just not as overtly so.

But I'm not surprised it went over your head, there were plenty of people who didn't understand what Swift was trying to do either.

[RedStarWarrior]

If the satire doesn't sound reprehensible, then it isn't a satire.

Anyway, I get what Roy is trying to say. The child itself is a blessing if the mother chooses to actually keep it. The rape will never be acceptable. I don't think he's saying that rape victims have to carry in intended pregnancies to term, just that the baby itself shouldn't be ostracized.

[Blademaster]

It's flawed logic, assuming all women (people?) would welcome an unplanned rape-reminder baby with open arms, potentially destroying all goals, plans, relationships, health, and finances in the process. "Gift" indeed.

Or, if it's that big of an issue, the baby could be aborted.

Or maybe the state/government could take the little bugger. People do like to adopt babies now and then. Woman doesn't want baby? Give it to people who want baby. No more reminder for the mother and nobody has to die/be saddled with a kid they don't want. Everyone wins.

[Dark Sage]

But I'm not surprised it went over your head, there were plenty of people who didn't understand what Swift was trying to do either.

Actually, I thought Swift was a pretty sorry excuse for a satire too. (And this is an English major you're talking to.)

I mean, seriously, when you look at Gulliver's Travels, the Houyhnhnms were NOT the utopian society that Gulliver seems to think they are in the book. I mean, think about it for a minute. Swift's portrayal of this so-called utopian society is actually pretty bleak and unpleasant if you look closely; individuals do only what they need to survive, with strict and dull diets, engage in sex only so far as is necessary to preserve the species, appear to exhibit zero attachment to their own children (any extras are given to smaller or infertile families without a thought), lack of empathy towards other creatures (see their proposals to exterminate Yahoos and rejection of Gulliver for his resemblance to them; sounds like outright bigotry to me) and lack of any language besides what is required to exchange information (meaning while while there are no lies there is also no creativity or imagination). It can essentially be seen a passionless and cold existence so we should not take this the book at face value and assume Swift actually believes the stuff he is writing here.

And RSW, you're onyl proving our point. It should be up to the woman. Outlawing abortion will not solve anything.

People claim that monsters like Kermit Gosnell would have been kept in check if abortion had been outlawed. If anything, he is a frightening example of what would happen MUCH more often if it WAS outlawed, and unprofessional quacks like him did the proceedure illegally to women who wanted it done.

[RedStarWarrior]

I'm pro-choice, DS. Maybe I should be pro-death. Everybody aborts!

Also, I like Swift and my degree was in English (not that area of study gives greater weight to what essentially is an opinion).

So, anyway, back to this gay marriage thing. Magmar, when you getting hitched?

[Magmar]

My man's birthday is today yay

oh and on the shine aqua abortion topic, I'm going to copy-paste excerpts from an article here to really make ya'll think. this one's for you Katie, I spent a half hour this morning trying to track this down <3


http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoy...h-control.html

Zygotes Lost With Birth Control v. Without Birth Control

Let me preface this with a quick biology lesson. Every month, a woman’s body releases an egg. If there is sperm there waiting, the egg becomes fertilized. This is when I was taught life – including personhood and the bestowing of a soul – began. This fertilized egg, or zygote, then travels into the uterus, where it implants in the uterine wall. That is when pregnancy begins. The birth control pill works primarily by preventing ovulation in the first place, and also by impeding sperm so that it can’t get to to an egg to fertilize it. But leading organizations in the pro-life movement argue that there is some chance that women on the pill will have “breakthrough ovulation,” and if this occurs and sperm somehow make their way to the egg, you could technically end up with a fertilized egg. They further suggest that because the pill also thins the uterine lining, this fertilized egg would be flushed out of a woman’s body rather than implanting in her uterus.

The pro-life movement is divided between Catholics and Protestants. Catholics oppose birth control for religious reasons, but the Protestants in the movement who take issue with birth control generally do so because, based on the information detailed above, they believe that it is an “abortifacient.” In other words, they believe that the pill causes abortions.

So, with that background, Sarah’s numbers were as follows:

Without Birth Control:

Out of 100 fertile women without birth control, 100 of them will ovulate in any given month.
Out of those 100 released eggs, 33 will become fertilized.
Out of those 33, 18% will be rejected by the uterus.
In a group of 100 women not on birth control: 6 zygotes will “die”

With Birth Control:

Out of 100 fertile women on birth control, around 6 of them will ovulate in any given month.
Out of those 6 released eggs, only 2 will become fertilized.
Out of those 2, 100% will be rejected by the uterus.
In a group of 100 women on birth control: 2 zygotes will “die”

As a natural protective mechanism, the uterus tends to reject fertilized eggs that take too long to adhere to the lining because they may be less fit, the researchers say. On day 11, more than 50 percent of pregnancies fail and on day 12, that number jumps to over 80 percent. (Source)

Studies have found that 30 to 50 percent of fertilized eggs are lost before or during the process of implantation – often so early that a woman goes on to get her period at about the expected time. (Source)

In nature, 50 percent of all fertilized eggs are lost before a woman’s missed menses.

-----------------

Yay my gay topic is flaming!

[Heald]

incoherent drivel

I think it was rather obvious that I was referring to A Modest Proposal in comparison to my satirical suggestion (comparable in theme only, I do not intend to suggest it is of equal quality to Swift) but since you don't appear to be aware of this particular essay then I won't bother trying to drive the point home.

To be honest, not sure how this topic went from gay marriage to abortion rights so I'm putting the kibosh on any further discussion about abortion in this thread.

I don't have particularly much to add, I just hope that in a generation's time, those that opposed gay marriage will be looked upon much like those who opposed cross-racial marriage, and that things that actually impact life at a much greater level will take up anywhere near as much time as this has been
Argued for.

[Dark Sage]

I don't have particularly much to add, I just hope that in a generation's time, those that opposed gay marriage will be looked upon much like those who opposed cross-racial marriage, and that things that actually impact life at a much greater level will take up anywhere near as much time as this has been
Argued for.

Well what do you know? For once we agree on something.

[Lady Vulpix]

Same here. Anyway, why has this turned into a discussion about abortion?

I don't think anyone believes that rape is a reasonable price to pay for a new life. I think the argument begins once the rape has happened. That can't be taken back no matter what, and now a new life is in progress (spontaneous abortion does not factor in the discussion, no one considers that murder just like no one considers death by illness or accident to be murder). The question is: once rape has already happened and the embryo/fetus is there, with a beating heart and developing normally, what do you do?

Rape is horrible and definitely condemnable, and the woman has already suffered enough and shouldn't have to continue paying for something that was not her fault. But it's not her child's fault either. So, as you see, the solution isn't simple. No matter what you do, an innocent pays the price.

[Heald]

Apologies if there was a language barrier when I said I was putting the kibosh on discussions of abortion, what I was trying to say was this is a thread about gay marriage, not abortion and so such off-topic discussions should be stopped. I would create another thread but there have been about 4 previous discussions on the various moral obstacles of abortion and none of them have been particularly pretty to bear.

[Lady Vulpix]

Oh, sorry, I should have looked up the word "kibosh". -.- Well, I've learnt something new now.

As for gay marriage, at least it looks like everyone here agrees on that point. Which is a lot to say, considering it's hard for all of us to agree on anything.

[Magmar]

Yes, no more rape/abortion, that can have its own topic unless anyone wants to argue it in the context of marriage equality.

But this thread should go on because we're about to find out what's going to happen to the bans on marriage equality in those 29 states that have them!

[RedStarWarrior]

Maybe. The decision of the Supreme Court would just open up the possibility for action to be take against similar laws. It doesn't negate them immediately.

[MToolen]

Hey look, my state may become #13. Illinois' House has the vote scheduled for today, assuming they actually call the vote.

I've been mum on this issue for a while, because it's a complicated issue. So here goes. I believe in the government's duty to treat all people equally. To me, that means that united couples of any gender should be entitled to any benefits, including custody and power of attorney and all that. I believe in a complete separation of church and state (a freedom from religion), so that religious beliefs shouldn't sway the government's aforementioned duty. Finally, I believe in a freedom of religion, that clergy should be allowed to refrain from conducting services if it is against their system of beliefs. I find no problem with this because those beliefs evolve as a greater understanding of their religion is attained.

My solution, therefore, would be to have two separate actions, one religious and one secular, offered separately with different consequences attached to each. The state could offer unions to legally bind two people into one entity in the same way that a religious wedding would bind the two together spiritually. Is this plan likely to take effect? Not a chance. But if you truly wanted separation of church and state, that's how I would go about it.

[CaptainJigglypuff]

I'm glad that Michelle Bachman is leaving politics. She truly was not a very nice person when it came to equal rights and gay marriage. Bachman's ego seemed pretty big as well. The only thing bigger than her ego was Rick Perry's which is the size of Jupiter. I saw the video she posted on her website on the news and I think even though she did not say why she was leaving, I think it's pretty clear. She knows she can't push for the constitutional ban on gay marriage because of how many states legalized it and that is all she really had going on for her.

[Roy Karrde]

I'm glad that Michelle Bachman is leaving politics. She truly was not a very nice person when it came to equal rights and gay marriage. Bachman's ego seemed pretty big as well. The only thing bigger than her ego was Rick Perry's which is the size of Jupiter. I saw the video she posted on her website on the news and I think even though she did not say why she was leaving, I think it's pretty clear. She knows she can't push for the constitutional ban on gay marriage because of how many states legalized it and that is all she really had going on for her.

We may not see the last of her, she may be going for a Senatorial run x.x

[Magmar]

T_______T go away Michelle Bachmann pleeeease! (I think we can all agree, regardless of our political views, that she's nuts.)

[CaptainJigglypuff]

Bachman said she was leaving politics.

[Magmar]

BAM!

Sashay Away, DOMA. Sashay the f*** away!

Yay yay yay <3

[Heald]

Congrats Barry (and also everyone else in the USA who was a victim of DOMA). Call me maybe? x

[Magmar]

As the Supreme Court has declined to rule on Proposition 8, the ruling of lower courts is now upheld, and California has marriage equality again.

Also, Wendy Baker, I effing love you for what you've done for the rights of women in Texas.

HA! Proud to be pissing in your cheerios today, you crazy social (read: SOCIAL) conservatives.

[Mewfour]

Too bad the SCOTUS ruling doesn't outright strike down existing bans on same sex marriage per state, but at least it's something.

Congratulations, America. You've taken your first baby steps into the 21st century.

[Heald]

Until America stops having a major network that is promoting turning the USA into effectively a theocracy then it will remain in the 11th century, let alone the 21st.

[Gavin Luper]

BAM!

Sashay Away, DOMA. Sashay the f*** away!

Yay yay yay <3

This is great news for all of you in the US, congrats!

Hopefully we get more traction on this now, both within the US and worldwide.

[Magmar]

Congratulations to all the UK-based TPMers who now can marry the person of their choice, provided they're an adult and not a sibling (unless they're in Norfolk) <333333

God(dess)(es) save the Queen!

[Heald]

It's great and all, but it's largely semantics: same sex unions were already recognised in law under the legal and tax/welfare system, this bill may seem symbolic and it is actually a pretty major milestone from a social perspective but all the practical and tangible benefits of marriage have been available to same sex couples for several years now.