We've had old Gym Leader TMs floating around the ASB for a long, long time. Since the time in which many of them were written, we've seen a measure of common sense and game balance slowly work it's way back into the league, something that we had not seen since before Tune-Ups were ever allowed.

In the past we've had voting topics to eliminate old Gym Leader TMs, which remain the last obvious abuse from ages past. Every time up to now, however, veterans who wished to continue abusing the old TMs to keep an unfair advantage over newbies without actually having to resort to skill would pop out of the woodwork to vote against it. Sometimes, they'd even con those newbies they were exploiting into voting with them, pretending that they had "earned" those TMs (or as often as not just offering bribes), when in fact they had just used the businesses they owned, under the extremely broken old economic system, to make their pokémon invincible. Back then, you could pay to have your pokémon learn Spore, Lock On, and Guillotine, even if this made no sense. Even if the pokémon in question was a Magikarp! And furthermore, it would be a ghost/dark 700-foot-long Magikarp with seven attacks per round and immunity to all status effects. So there's really no truth to what is said about "earning" the TMs from the Tune-Up days.

Hopefully, the current members are willing to listen to reason, and in that pursuit I've found an instance of a grizzled old veteran using old GL TMs as a substitute for skill. Note that Vaporeon911 isn't even trying to hide the fact that he's totally screwing Don'tRunWithScizors over with unfair TMs:

Originally posted by Vaporeon911:
Heh, got one approved, time to cause hell. >=)

Go Shimmer!

*male Squirtle pops out*

You havn't had much exercise lately, eh?

Shimmer: Squirt, squirt, squirrrrrtle!

Right, this Unkown is no match for a powerful Squirtle like your self.

Shimmer: Squirt!

Heh, start with the oh so famous Mental Block. Yes Mental Block his sig move before he can try any funny buisness. Follow with a Rune of Protection *Psychic, don't let it get any weird psychic crap mess up your A game. Finish with a nice and easy Water Gun. Have fun buddy.

Shimmer: Squirt squirt.

~Mental Block *Unkown's Sig Move~Rune of Protection *Psychic~Water Gun~

-=-TM 69 – Rune of Protection-=-
The pokemon creates an aura around their body. This aura represents an element. The aura's element means it is protected by that element. Any attack that causes damage from that element will be absorbed into the aura. Any status effect/changer or that element will also be absorbed. This lasts for three rounds; in that time this attack cannot be cancelled and/or changed. At the end of the three rounds the aura discharges and comes together forming a missile. The missile is shot out at lightning speeds which explode in front of the opponent, causing it to miss it’s first attack the next round. This attack can be used when a pokemon is sleeping, burned, frozen, poisoned, scared, or paralyzed.
| Type: Psychic | | Damage: -- | Accuracy: 100% |

-=-TM 404 -Mental Block-=-
The pokemon uses his psychic powers to put up a block in the opponent's brain to make it not be able to use an attack (includes sig moves) for 5 rounds, and gives the abiliy to use the move to it. Cannot be blocked, and always attacks first. Maximum use is 5 times per battle, only 1 move may be blocked at a time.
| Type: Dark | Damage: -- | Accuracy: 100% |
In this line of text, Vaporeon911 stripped DRWS's entire moveset before any actual battling took place. Sure, DRWS made up some highly imaginative stuff to try to counter with, but quite frankly it would take precious little effort to point out the flaws in his counter. As much respect as I have for his battling skill, Vappy's Gym TMs have put him in a spot from which there's no recovery. Without Vappy having to resort to skill.

I mean, just look at those monstrosities. Can you imagine getting a sig like that approved? And don't think YOU will ever get one; the Gyms Leaders that handed them out are pretty much all retired, and they aren't Gym Leaders anymore anyway.

Anyway, I need two things. First off, I want everyone to vote yes or no to this proposition:

"Old Gym Leader TMs should be removed from the TPM ASB."

Second, could ASHarris sign onto this? Regardless of the results of the vote, I need her agreement before anything can actually change. I'm 100% sure I'll get it since the problem is so blasted obvious, but hey... Rules are rules.

If anyone has arguments either way, feel free to post them. Currently, this is a hideous problem, and I haven't even touched on points such as "We have no records from that far back since the old mods didn't pass them on to the new mods, so anyone could make up a so-called GL TM and claim they earned it" and the like.

As you might has guessed, I vote "yes".

Voting closes January 15, at 2359.59.