Illegal Immigrants, Tolerable or not?

[Blademaster]

PROBLEM WITH DEPORTING: it would cost an amount we couldn't even fathom...don't get me wrong, I want them out, but not at the cost of the economy...

...

What economy?

But would it really be better for the economy to let them drain the country's resources over many more years? Better to take the hit now than to hesitate with indecision and lose a lot more in the long run.

Yeah, exactly. We Americans are so great at planning ahead, after all - just look at how quickly we agreed with the Japanese-anti-global-warming-idea, the don't-bomb-the-Arabs-because-they-have-all-of-our-oil-and-that's-a-vital-resource-in-our-country-idea, the everyone-is shopping-at-Wal-Mart-which-is-costing-thousnads-of-hard-working-middle-class-people-their-jobs-idea, the develop-a-vaccine-for-avian-flu-before-it-gets-to-us-oh-wait-it-almost-has-idea, the what-happened-to-the-space-shuttle?-idea, the build-a-wall-to-keep-some-other-country-from-sending-thousands-of-missiles-at-us-idea, the what-the-****-are-our-troops-doing-in-Iraq?-idea, ........

[Dark Dragonite]

The faltering economy barely afloat...Thanks Mr. Bush...I didn't vote for him...
Anyways, can you fathom how much it would cost to send 12-15million people back? Workman hours, hiring thousands of new people to do it, shipping them, they are all over, NY-CA-FL, everywhere, it costs money, the theory is...if you make them legal, you can tax them, and prohibit abuse of the tax and welfare system they pull now...
SOMETHING SAD: THEY know OUR system better than WE do... WE could claim the money held in reserve, but we don't, so they learn, and do...

Also...the problem isn't JUST the criminals(illegals), we need to start throwing the people who hire them in JAIL...not slaps on the wrist, but hard time, scare them!!

[SupremeChampion]

ok, personally i think they should give all the illegals a work visa as of right now, so we can track them. then offer them the chance to become american citizens, legal ones. now i would guess that most would jump at the chance. the ones who don't, i say send them back. yea, it might cost a lot of money and all that, but it would work out in the long run, as jobs would now be available for people who need to earn more than .25 an hour or whatever they make. i also agree with your dark dragonite that the people who own the companies who employ illegals need to be thrown in jail asap. anyway, for those who claim that they're kids are americans, oh well. if they pass their citizenship test and become legal, they have nothing to worry about. if not, then i say that they should send the entire family home but the kids can come back when they're ready, you know? then you would think they would sponsor their family for citizenship and all that, which would work out. i also think we need to increase our border patrol so we can do a better job at keeping the illegals out.

oh, and on an off note, i think that a good move in this direction would be to make english the offical language in america and be done with all this multi-language stuff we got all over the place. now before anyone calls me racisit, listen to me. first off, i'm not. secondly, when my great-grandparents came to america from italy they needed to learn english or they would not be able to do anything here, like buy groceries and the sort. i think we're too lenient in that aspect today. we should make it so that when you go out to buy something, you don't need to have a spanish translator or instructions in spanish. i mean, if they want to speak spanish in their homes (like my great-grandparents/grandparents/parents do in my home [well in italian]), i'm all for it. but when they go out in public, i really think they need to learn english. once again, i am not a racisit in any stretch of the imagination, but i do[i] feel strongly on the matter.

~The Italian Stallion

[mr_pikachu]

The faltering economy barely afloat...Thanks Mr. Bush...I didn't vote for him...

That's funny, considering that the unemployment rate just dropped to a 4 1/2 year low of 4.7 percent. That's the lowest it's been since the 4.6% rate just before the September 11 attacks, which caused chaos in the job market.

[Dark Dragonite]

That's funny, considering that the unemployment rate just dropped to a 4 1/2 year low of 4.7 percent. That's the lowest it's been since the 4.6% rate just before the September 11 attacks, which caused chaos in the job market.

Ok, please don't make me get the stats again...
41/2yrs...which is still Bush's reign...actually, if I show you the stats from a government site, not yahoo, it will show they were high with Bush Sr., hit an alltime low with Clinton, and went up again with Jr.
Clinton, president 1993-2001
Bush Sr. 1989-1993
Bush Jr. 2001-Present

Unemployment % from beaureau of Labor Stats.gov

http://www.bls.gov/cps/prev_yrs.htm
YEAR %Unemployed
1989 5.3
1990 5.6
1991 6.8
1992 7.5
1993 6.9
1994 6.1
1995 5.6
1996 5.4
1997 4.9
1998 4.5
1999 4.2
2000 4.0
2001 4.7
2002 5.8
2003 6.0
2004 5.5
Notice the dip down to 4.0% in 2000, then with Jr, it goes up to 6.0%...now it's back to 4.7% which it went up from the change of Clinton to Bush Jr?
This is how they control gas prices...they have a set amount they want the price at, then raise it higher, people get pissed...they lower it, people are happy with this great lowering...to the amount the gas people wanted in the first place...

[mr_pikachu]

This page has the rates going back to 1947 (persons 16 and over). Persons 14 and over are tracked from 1940-1947.


1. I'm not sure what you mean about problems during the Bush Sr. presidency. 1989 (the first year he was in office) had a 5.3% unemployment rate, which was the lowest since 1973. The increases afterward largely had to do with the Gulf war, which began in 1991. Note the change in the unemployment rate from 5.6% to 6.8% from 1990 to 1991.

2. Looking at Bush Jr., the increases can be explained by the Iraq war. The .7% increase from 2000 to 2001 were likely due in large part to the previously mentioned September 11 attacks, which caused all sorts of turmoil in the U.S. economy for the fourth quarter of that year. The full effects were not seen until 2002, where a full year's time could be measured post 9-11. The unemployment rate skyrocketed then to 5.8%. Now that the war is dying down somewhat (I'm not going to argue that it's anywhere remotely close to over, because then I'd be lying), the confidence of employers is improving, allowing more accurate figures to present themselves.

3. Contrary to popular belief, the government has little to no effect on gas prices. OPEC (the Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries) has nearly total control of what areas can be drilled for oil. By controlling this, they control the supply of oil. And as any economic scholar will tell you, the relation between supply and demand is what determines the average price of an item. A high supply-demand ratio will make prices go down. A low ratio makes prices increase. Demand, in this case, is determined how how many people want crude oil products (like gasoline) and how much they want. That can only be influenced by giving consumers an alternate fuel source; such sources are being developed. (Just look at hybrid vehicles.) So for the time being, supply is easiest to influence. Therefore, OPEC has nearly total control over gas prices.

[Dark Dragonite]

I didn't mean the gov. controls gas, although Bush has a lot of interest in it,,,I meant this is the method they use...

Also, why did we go to war both times? what did we get? more dead people, and other countries hating us.
I will admit,  don't understand why rates go up with war, jobs still need to get done, and someone has to fill those that werte the soldiers'

I won't start with 9/11, I think it was rigged...

[Hatake Kakashi]

This is more than a little off-topic though, don'tcha think?

Start a general politics thread if ya wanna argue the Bush thing

(jesus where are the REAL mods of this forum?)

[Dark Dragonite]

it didn't really get THAT far off topic...it went from illegal immigrants, to sending them all home, to me saying the affect on the economy would be real bad(although I'm for sending them home), to what economy, to a faltering one thanks to Bush, to someone saying Bush brought unemployment down, to me proving that wrong, to it going up cause of war, to me saying the wars shouldn't have happened in the first place.
And there you have it, 12 degrees of Kevin Bacon...

[Jeff]

The faltering economy barely afloat...Thanks Mr. Bush...I didn't vote for him...

More like thanks to the dot-com bust, 9/11, and the hurricanes, none of which Bush caused, and in fact the main reason for the booming economy in the 90s was the dot-com bubble itself. Sorry, I know it's off topic but it had to be said.

[Dark Dragonite]

More like thanks to the dot-com bust, 9/11, and the hurricanes, none of which Bush caused, and in fact the main reason for the booming economy in the 90s was the dot-com bubble itself. Sorry, I know it's off topic but it had to be said.

I may be a conspiracy theorist on this, but Bush let 9/11 happen...look at how it happened, missing planes, ones that were never in the sky...no wonder his approval rating is the worst...

[Roy Karrde]

Bush letting 9/11 happen is one of the nuttiest things that I have ever heard. There are just too many ways that it could be made public and he would be kicked out of office. There are egnough people out there that hate him with such venom that they would go through every scrap of evidence to try and prove that he let 9/11 happen or that he wanted it to happen.

[Dark Dragonite]

Bush letting 9/11 happen is one of the nuttiest things that I have ever heard. There are just too many ways that it could be made public and he would be kicked out of office. There are egnough people out there that hate him with such venom that they would go through every scrap of evidence to try and prove that he let 9/11 happen or that he wanted it to happen.

Bush got his war through it, didn't he?
http://www.reopen911.org/

[Roy Karrde]

You are linking to a website that believes * atleast from what I saw on the front page * that Isreail had a connection in 9/11. Not only that but articles that believe explosives were placed on the building and that the building was taken down that way. Even though Structure Engeneers have proven otherwise. Next thing you know they will be saying the Pentagon was hit by a missle and not a plane. Some of the nuts out there and their websites are crazy.

[Blademaster]

Some of the nuts out there and their websites are crazy.

Yeah, Bush being told 'by God (which even the Bible says is impossible)' to go and fight people (which the Commandments forbid) in another country that had nothing to do with 9/11 is MUCH more sensible...

[Roy Karrde]

May I ask what that has to do with ANYTHING other than providing even more Political Bigotry to this topic that is supposed to be about Illigal Immigration?

[Blademaster]

(shrugs)

I dunno - not much more than posting about who/what caused the Twin Towers to collapse in this topic that is supposed to be about illegal immigration?

[Greyfox]

The topic fails because it keeps branching out into things that have nothing to do with anything. Because of this, the topic is now about bobble-head dolls.

-drew

[Dark Dragonite]

Actually Drew, I can tie terrorism back to this...
Ok, 12+million illegal immigrants came through unchecked...who's to say terrorists won't see that as the perverbial open window...

[Blademaster]

Well, because as I said before, the 19 hijackers came through from Canada, and we all know what happened as a result...

Mexico, on the other hand... Well, 5 groups of Middle Eastern terrorists have gone through Mexico over the past few months, and none of them got through - the Mexicans got 'em all caught.

...

So, we should be thanking the Mexicans, actually.

-Blade

P.S. Bobble heads are DA SHIZNIT!

[Roy Karrde]

True, but Mexico is almost third worldish in comparison to the rest of North America. Mexico's borders with the United States are extremely poorly guarded, and each day Mexican Drug gangs cross the borders to fight with rival drug gangs on our side. Also as shown recently it is extremely easy to get Nuke material across the borders into the US through Mexico. Terrorist basically go over the border every day, we just call them Drug Gangs. If they can get over, how long will it take until terrorists with an actual weapon and motive to use it gets over? Do you really want to take that chance, or strengthen the borders now.

[phaedrus]

truth is, illegal immigrants provide at least $6B (around there, if i remember correctly) of the Social Security funds. they pay in because they have fake SSNs, but they get nothing, because they're illegal.

sure it seems like nothing considering the largest portion of the 12T budget, but in reality, it can mean a lot to people who rely on that extra 6B of SS to survive.

also, with RGDP growth around 3%, unemployment at 4.9%, core inflation around 2%, and CPI around 3% (i think), our economy is a little overheated. so, bernanke is doing the right thing. which means our economy is doing fine, despite all the fiscal policy retardedness.

[mr_pikachu]

truth is, illegal immigrants provide at least $6B (around there, if i remember correctly) of the Social Security funds. they pay in because they have fake SSNs, but they get nothing, because they're illegal.

Pardon me for my ignorance, but that doesn't make sense to me. I probably just haven't gotten enough sleep lately, but something really seems off with that...

If they're illegal immigrants with fake Social Security Numbers, how would the government even know about them? After all, if they're using fake numbers to get by in daily life, the government would likely never know about it because they wouldn't have a record of the person at all (again, assuming the SS number is, like you said, fake). Other people might have a record of this person, but unless word got back to the government, they'd never know. And most of the illegals are smart enough to find an employer who's dealt with many illegals hiding from the government - so they wouldn't send the SSNs.

This seems to be true unless you're saying that they get someone on the inside of the system to secretly give them a fake SSN... but why would they do that? I don't think that they'd receive any benefits from it, and it'd make it a lot easier for the government to track them down. After all, suddenly there's a record of the person. A fake record, yes, but if you follow the trail of evidenciary bread crumbs far enough, you'll find the illegal immigrant.

I apologize if this post ends up being totally incoherent... I haven't slept for awhile, so my brain is fried. I guess my main question is why the immigrants would bother getting SSNs, since they wouldn't gain anything from it. If they don't have SSNs, they don't pay taxes, and the Social Security fund gets no money. (And if they do get fake SSNs, they likely still wouldn't be paying taxes, especially since employers of immigrants tend to like to keep things "off the books.")

[phaedrus]

two words: payroll taxes. they fork over 8%, so does the employer.

edit: if they didn't have fake SSNs, they can't get a job. not only that, the SSNs are all forged (e.g. photoshopped SSNs), so the government would never know anyways. they just know because it's pretty obvious, especially if you look towards the agriculture in California, even in inner cities like chicago, new york, etc.

[Roy Karrde]

They also send something in the estimate of 38 Billion per year back to Mexico, money that we wont get. Why do you think Mexico is so against legalizing them? It would mean they would pay taxes alot each year and Mexico would get less money back.

[phaedrus]

They also send something in the estimate of 38 Billion per year back to Mexico, money that we wont get. Why do you think Mexico is so against legalizing them? It would mean they would pay taxes alot each year and Mexico would get less money back.

moral of the story is that status quo is better than making some half-assed changes. h:

and hopefully that 38B goes towards infrastructure. though it probably goes to companies willing to develop a stronger tequila.

[Dark Dragonite]

two words: payroll taxes. they fork over 8%, so does the employer.

edit: if they didn't have fake SSNs, they can't get a job. not only that, the SSNs are all forged (e.g. photoshopped SSNs), so the government would never know anyways. they just know because it's pretty obvious, especially if you look towards the agriculture in California, even in inner cities like chicago, new york, etc.

Are you kidding?
Maybe some of the illegals with better jobs have fake ones(wonder what poor citizens are getting fucked by that), but the guys who ride the bikes to the corner, and get picked up for Day Labor, they need nothing, and probably have exactly that, no id whatsoever.

[phaedrus]

Are you kidding?
Maybe some of the illegals with better jobs have fake ones(wonder what poor citizens are getting ****ed by that), but the guys who ride the bikes to the corner, and get picked up for Day Labor, they need nothing, and probably have exactly that, no id whatsoever.

more illegals need the fake SSNs for their jobs than you apparently think. i don't have figures on me but there's more illegals with SSNs than without.